A difficulty

[allsaved]

Hi. I'm a believer in universal salvation but I still have some doubts. For example, obviously, God cannot save people who never existed outside of our imagination or will. The child that a couple desperately wanted but could not have won't be saved -I guess. God could create the children we didn't have but wished for. Anyway, what about people who were born but seemed to lose their existence through a life of dedication to evil deeds and thought? Joseph Stalin was in some respects worse than Adolph Hitler. So, finally getting to my point, when Joseph S. is purged of his evil in God's merciful cleansing fire will there be anything left of Joseph Stalin to save? Will he be like a person who never really existed? I certainly don't believe in eternal torment but I do have difficulty with the question of what will be left after the evil of extremely evil people is purged.

Maybe my question can be answered only by answering the question: what exactly is a human being? Is a human being more than the sum total of his or her deeds, thoughts, beliefs and life experiences? Was there a Joseph Stalin that was invisible not only to the world but especially to Joseph himself that will somehow rise out of the ashes of the evil Joseph Stalin?

All 

[squint]

If we understand that there is more going on in mankinds bodies than "just mankind" it becomes quite easy to separate J. Stalin or A. Hitler from their flesh owners who are not them.  One will be entirely saved.  One will be entirely lost.

To step onto this ground is to put away all blame and accusation to "mankind" and acknowledge that those men were slaves who were set free.  This will remain a difficult task for "all" of us because we do not and most times cannot divide, even with ourselves or each other because of the same "problem."

God continues to allow the usurpers to rise up, in the hope that we would see and divide and speak His Truth in these matters.

enjoy!

squint

[SeekerSA]

Hi All, heck that used to be my greeting to all on the thread  :bigGrin:

The way I look at the Hitler and Stalin question is this.  The victims there was a very strong chance they too did not know Jesus.  The ET camp would condemn both the perpetrator and the victims to the same end.  With UR we see both coming to bow the knee and being saved, diametrically opposed to mainstream thought but which shows more mercy?

Sin remains sin no matter what the offence, the penalty is the same.

Without Jesus' sacrifice all of us would be lost as perfection in our own abilities is impossible.

As for what comes out of the LoF, nothing, what goes in is destroyed. Yet the man does not go therein, merely his sin.  That's how I understand it anyway.

Guess if God kept a scorecard, Jesus died in vain on the cross.  One need merely look at the parable of the Prodigal son to see the Father's heart.

The prodigal is 99.99% of mankind, the son that stayed behind, is the pious religious and self righteous, notice Father loves both.

Blessings

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother B... :hithere:

Hi All, heck that used to be my greeting to all on the thread  :bigGrin:

The way I look at the Hitler and Stalin question is this.  The victims there was a very strong chance they too did not know Jesus.  The ET camp would condemn both the perpetrator and the victims to the same end.  With UR we see both coming to bow the knee and being saved, diametrically opposed to mainstream thought but which shows more mercy?

Sin remains sin no matter what the offence, the penalty is the same.

Without Jesus' sacrifice all of us would be lost as perfection in our own abilities is impossible.

As for what comes out of the LoF, nothing, what goes in is destroyed. Yet the man does not go therein, merely his sin.  That's how I understand it anyway.

Guess if God kept a scorecard, Jesus died in vain on the cross.  One need merely look at the parable of the Prodigal son to see the Father's heart.

The prodigal is 99.99% of mankind, the son that stayed behind, is the pious religious and self righteous, notice Father loves both.

Blessings

Blessings.

I agree Bernie... I see the Parable of the Prodigal Son, as being about the LOVE of the FATHER, not the mistaken positions of BOTH SONS... The Prodigal/young son made wasteful decisions, and the Elder made judgemental decisions...

But the FATHER ...LOVED... them both in spite of those mistaken positions...  :myahoo:

G  :HeartThrob: D's L :HeartThrob: VE
IS greater than ANYTHING... and is PART of ALL He does... to include, JUDGMENT...  :love4:

It's WHO He ...IS...   :bowing:    :IloveU:  :gangel:

Peace...   :Sparkletooth:

In  JESUS...willieH  :boogie:

[Kratos]

Willie,

I am surprised that you attribute either son with the ability to make decisions that affect their lives. LOL (I couldn't resist).

I think 100% of mankind are the prodigal sons. Jesus is the only Son that never left the Father in His life to try out the world and what it had to offer. In His humanity, He may have asked about the goodness of the Father to kill the fatted calf for a returning prodigals, but that doesn't mean He was not glad to see one of us younger and more foolish sons return. And like the Father said, all that He has belongs to the elder Son who never left. I don't think that this applies to any of us no matter how we think we may have made better decisions than another prodigal.

John

[allsaved]

Thanks everyone for your helpful replies. My problem is not about God's judgment on sinners. In fact God forgave people even before Jesus walked the earth, even before Jesus died on the cross. Jesus himself forgave sin and said nothing about the Father needing him (Jesus) to die in order for sin to be forgiven. Mercy would not be mercy if Jesus had to pay the penalty for sin before God could forgive the sinner. Then forgiveness would not be forgiveness as there is no forgiveness if a penalty has been paid in order to satisfy justice. Forgiveness is precisely that act of mercy in which the aggrieved party forgives the debt without any penalty being paid by the debtor or by some substitute. The debt is simply written off. Mercy is satisfied but not justice. We human beings have a hard time with the concept of mercy. We feel that someone, somehow must pay. For human beings there is no free lunch. For God everything is free.

No, my problem is ontological; it's about existence. What if the prodigal son should never come home. The Father must go out looking for him. He finds his son in the gutter completely out of his mind. The son directs a stream of foul language toward the Father. The son, as bad as he was, is gone and in his place is some sort of unrecognizable animal. It's not a matter of the Father being unwilling to forgive the son. It's a question of whether or not the son even exists anymore. In the story of the prodigal son the miracle is not that the father forgives the son. The miracle is that the son was dead and was now alive. The celebration that the Father arranges is not about the matter of forgiveness or the Father's love for the prodigal son. No, the Father says: "It was fitting to celebrate and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found (Luke 15:32)." The cross was about restoring life to us human beings more than about forgiveness.

My question is, is there a point at which a human being has become so dead in sin that he cannot be restored to life? Is there anything there to be restored? I believe that the point of the story about the prodigal son is that we believers, we Christians (the Jews in Jesus' day) must be ready to accept the Father's forgiveness of the nonbeliever, the non Christian (the Gentile in Jesus' day) who repents at the Final Judgment, at the end of the day when he has run out of money. But again my question is not about God's forgiveness of the Hitlers or Stalins of this world. God's willingness to forgive is a given. My question is about just what is it that exists inside a Hitler or a Stalin that is able to be induced to repent and to want to be with the Father? One of you suggested that I not look at the flesh nature of a Hitler or Stalin. But what is there behind this mask of our flesh existence?

I think that this is where the mystery of the cross comes in. Jesus crucified the flesh on the cross and through the cross overcame the world. So, whatever survives the death of our flesh nature this must be united with Jesus who alone gives life to us prodigal sons. This is why the Father wanted His Son to go to the cross. He wanted His prodigal sons to be restored to life which could only be done through the death of His Son. His faithful son. Jesus, our elder brother, makes it possible for us prodigal sons to be restored to life.  The parable is about the other elder brothers, the Jews, who did not want to celebrate the welcoming in of their younger Gentile brothers into the family of their God. They wanted the Father to themselves.

It appears that those who die in a state of hostility toward God and in a state of wickedness come to God simply because of somehow becoming aware of their wickedness and of their desperate need for God. It seems that this is what forced the prodigal son to return home. But in some way these wicked people are no longer the same people that they were in this life. They become born again and become new people in Christ in the hereafter in someway similar to the way we believers become born again in this life. Just what is it in such wicked people as Stalin that experiences rebirth?  Something of the old person must be carried over as otherwise Stalin would then simply cease to exist and a wholly new person not related in anyway to Stalin would be taking his place. (This is my objection to reincarnation too.) We Christians believe in the resurrection of people including Stalin, not in reincarnation. So, after the dust settles, what is it in the earthly Stalin that survives both his first earthly death and his second spiritual death in heaven and that enjoys the presence of God forevermore?

All

[SeekerSA]

Hi All

Talk about a loaded question :mshock:

Well here is how I see it.  Everyone of us, no matter how despicable we are in life, in the quiet moments, there is an inner person that is the real person that God looks upon.  He hates the sin yet not the man.

Peter Starsted sang a song:

"..Where do you go to my lovely, when you're alone in your bed, tell me the thoughts that surround you, I want to look inside you head yes I do.."

This is what I am talking of.  There are always two persons, the one the world interacts with and the one God interacts with.  What did Hitler and Stalin dream, what caused them to "fall from grace" so bad?  What the world saw was the outward expression of the inner turmoil of the man.  In these two cases, very likely satan entered and confused their very being or it could well be other circumstances.

The inner me, you or anyone not even my wife will ever know in this lifetime, yet God knows intimately that part of me.  I hope I am making sense.

I believe this is why Jesus taught us, "Judge not lest ye be judged, the same manner ye measure it out, it shall be measured back unto you".  We judge the outer man and his sins and he is just as capable of judging our outer man and his sins.  Maybe the inner man is the conscience but it is more.  It is the emotions, the experiences, the inner thoughts; if this is the soul then so be it but then this "soul" must be immortal.

We shall all stand before God (the inner man) and will have knowledge of the doings of the outer man and be ashamed of it.  Yet I see Jesus reaching down a hand of compassion to even the vilest of sinners and saying "Arise my son, where are your accusers?  I condemn you not as I have paid the penalty for that which your outer man did"

So the outer man's sins is what perishes in the LoF, and the outer man himself, the inner man is saved.  As I know not your inner man and you know not my inner man except God, then you would not even recognize Hitler, moustache, fringe and all, there we shall see only the inner men. 

Jer 31:34  And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Jehovah. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more.

Rev 7:17  For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21:4  And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away.

So yes, from the 2nd death there is no escape.  We will all witness the cremation and destruction of the outer man, that which remains will stand in justification by the will of the Father and the payment IN FULL by His Son Jesus.

Now after the wiping away of the tears, will we still retain our memories of the outer man's actions?

I would hope not, because even in eternal bliss, it would be "hell" fire or no fire.

Blessings

[Kratos]

The Bible teaches a principle that if you want to know the nature of a thing, look at it's creation. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit and that which is born of the flesh is flesh. The reason that what you are proposing cannot be is that man was unique in all creation because He was made in God's image and likeness because God breathed into him the Breath of Life.

That which is seen is temporal and that which is unseen is eternal. Man may die physically and lay down his life soulically, but man cannot die spiritually in the sense of ceasing to exist because we were given the God spark at our creation.

In my opinion, no matter how far into evil a man goes or how much an animal he may appear to our natural eyes, there is a part of God in each and every one of us and that part cannot die. The ET believers think that part suffers for eternity in hell and the UR believers believe that part will eventually bring the rest of us to God, but neither believes that part can be snuffed out.

To tell you the truth, I found ET easier to swallow than annihilation theology because I could not imagine that which is born of the Spirit not continuing somewhere eternally. UR kind of makes us like the singer of the song that Amy Grant used to sing called "Father's Eyes". I may hate what the Hitlers and the rapists and the molesters do with all of my heart, but when I am in the Spirit, I see them with my Father's eyes and I know that there is a part of them that is good and able to be redeemed because they have a spark of God in them that cannot be extinguished. It is part of the miracle of the eternal spirit of God that is hard for our time bound minds to grasp, but the kind of life that we received at our creation from God is not like any other kind of life that can be overcome by evil or death.

John

[Cindi]

John said:

The Bible teaches a principle that if you want to know the nature of a thing, look at it's creation. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit and that which is born of the flesh is flesh. The reason that what you are proposing cannot be is that man was unique in all creation because He was made in God's image and likeness because God breathed into him the Breath of Life.

This conversation made me think of something I've saved in my files from a sermon by Gary Sigler called "What About Deception?"  I am sure this is not a new concept here on TM..and in fact, Keith was the first one to explain to me....that God did not create out of nothing....(creatio ex nihilo) but rather the universe(s) and everything in them were "creatio ex deo," which is creation out of the being of God.  Following is how Gary Sigler puts it:

There is the substance of God, (spirit) in every man. In all of humanity there lies the seed of God. What is that seed of God? It is the human spirit. You see, your spirit is that essence, that substance of God, which was created in the beginning in the image of God. You were not created in the beginning a physical being. You were created a spiritual being. We even sing about it as sons of God we were created in the very beginning in the image and likeness of God. And we sang together with the morning stars rejoicing over the creation of God. In the very beginning, we were created out of the very substance of God. Created is really not a good word for us. In Genesis 1:27 it says "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. " The word created here does not mean to make something out of nothing. It means to cut down. It is the word (baw-raw) In other words, we are a chip off the old block. That is why it takes all of us to be the fullness of God because we are just a chip off the old block. When you understand that all that fullness is in you, you can begin to see humanity through the eyes of the spirit.

And it is this belief...that we are all out of God...that gives me the assurance that no man is ever evil or wicked enough that God cannot reconcile him.   For of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things. 

Colossians 1:16-17 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him; and he is before all things, and in him all things consist.

Cindi......

Mercy Not Sacrifice

[Cindi]

Rev 7:17  For the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will feed them and will lead them to the fountains of living waters. And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21:4  And God will wipe away all tears from their eyes. And there will be no more death, nor mourning, nor crying out, nor will there be any more pain; for the first things passed away

There's one more verse that says virtually the same thing:

He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it. Isaiah 25:8.

These three verses are my favorite verses in the Bible....followed closely by the three verses that proclaim that every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. 

Why do you think that these verses are repeated three times pretty much verbatim?  So we get the point? 

Cindi......


Mercy Not Sacrifice

[Scrybe]

No, my problem is ontological; it's about existence.

I think that God in His wisdom placed us in a mode of being that is incapable of answering your question with any certainty.  What we are... what anything is... is simply beyond our understanding.  So I guess I don't see why your ontological question should cause you concern.  It's so far out there in the speculation category. 

I know C.S. Lewis concocted a similar ontology in order to soften the idea of eternal hell.  He proposed that at some point a sinner stops being a person and simply becomes a sin.  (I think in The Great Divorce a character is said to have stopped grumbling and became a grumble.)  Then there can be no ethical qualms about frying that sucker forever.

My problem with this idea is that is still has a God who made a being that He knew would sin and sin and sin until it became nothing.  I don't claim to know what love is in all perfect completion.  But I'm pretty sure that's not it.

I agree with some of the previous posts.  I think that no matter what we humans are able to ascertain, there is something beneath the surface that is and object of love for God.  How much personality or memory, or whatever is simply a mystery.       

[Gabe Grinstead]

AllSaved,

Many of us have wondered the same thing, but ultimately it comes down to the power of God.  Now, I know you are not doubting the power or forgiveness of God, but you may be doubting the passage where Jesus responds to his disciple and says "Humanly speaking, no one [can be saved]. But with God all things are possible!" To me, that says it all! Is it possible that some people have nothing left to save? I suppose, but why should we believe that? We don't know all the thoughts of man, only God does.

As long as we are speculating, I mine as well through this out there - I believe it may be possible that people like Joseph Stalin or Hitler are not even human.  Perhaps they are agents of God sent to do a task.  Maybe these people cease to exist when their life ends.  I don't know, but that seems likely to me in many cases.  I guess the Apostle Paul believed that angels live among us, because he does say something to the affect of "Some have even entertained angels!" Surely, not everyone here on earth is a human like we are.

In any event, we already know that with God anything is possible.  Therefore, I am not worried about these details.

[SeekerSA]

"Some have even entertained angels!"

The angels here could be messengers and/or pastors, servants of god viz. in the flesh.

[firstborn888]

    It's one of the hardest concepts for humans to understand, but the fact is that every victimizer are themselves a victim. A victim of evil. A victim of deception. No matter how atrocious their actions, they are not evil incarnate, but rather (as a previous poster said) they are prisoners.
    This is the case for every human, Stalin, Hitler, you, me, that evil persecutor Saul, Billy Graham, everybody.
    If you've ever have been personally assaulted, raped, abused (or if someone you love has been) it's easy to refer to them as "monsters" and wish them the worst possible fate. In fact, I almost killed a man who made sexual advances towards my daughter when she was 10 years old. In the long run, you have to understand the truth.

Prisoners, all of them.

Redeemable, all of them.

[squint]

Agreed firstborn888.

I am enjoying your posts at Theologyweb.com btw if you are the same person.

[Andy]

    It's one of the hardest concepts for humans to understand, but the fact is that every victimizer are themselves a victim. A victim of evil. A victim of deception. No matter how atrocious their actions, they are not evil incarnate, but rather (as a previous poster said) they are prisoners.
    This is the case for every human, Stalin, Hitler, you, me, that evil persecutor Saul, Billy Graham, everybody.
    If you've ever have been personally assaulted, raped, abused (or if someone you love has been) it's easy to refer to them as "monsters" and wish them the worst possible fate. In fact, I almost killed a man who made sexual advances towards my daughter when she was 10 years old. In the long run, you have to understand the truth.

Prisoners, all of them.

Redeemable, all of them.

I agree too!  This has been a real eye opener for me, having struggled with self condemnation for years, because I can't break free of sin that's in my flesh.

Rom 7:14-20 CLV
(14)  For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin."
(15)  For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing."
(16)  Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."
(17)  Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."
(18)  For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not."
(19)  For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice."
(20)  Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me."

I am also comforted to know that God's wrath is not directed towards His children (all humanity!) , but rather his wrath is directed towards those evil spirits that have bound and confused and condemned all God's children.  They (the evil spirits) are rightfully destined for the Lake of Fire!

[firstborn888]

Agreed firstborn888.

I am enjoying your posts at Theologyweb.com btw if you are the same person.

Yeah, that's me. Since recently getting into these discussion boards I've learned one thing- Calvinists can push my buttons like none other can - especially when they start up with their "non-elect babies in hell" talk. I've decided to take off the gloves with those guys. It's so sick :thumbdown:

[firstborn888]

    It's one of the hardest concepts for humans to understand, but the fact is that every victimizer are themselves a victim. A victim of evil. A victim of deception. No matter how atrocious their actions, they are not evil incarnate, but rather (as a previous poster said) they are prisoners.
    This is the case for every human, Stalin, Hitler, you, me, that evil persecutor Saul, Billy Graham, everybody.
    If you've ever have been personally assaulted, raped, abused (or if someone you love has been) it's easy to refer to them as "monsters" and wish them the worst possible fate. In fact, I almost killed a man who made sexual advances towards my daughter when she was 10 years old. In the long run, you have to understand the truth.

Prisoners, all of them.

Redeemable, all of them.

I agree too!  This has been a real eye opener for me, having struggled with self condemnation for years, because I can't break free of sin that's in my flesh.

Rom 7:14-20 CLV
(14)  For we are aware that the law is spiritual, yet I am fleshly, having been disposed of under Sin."
(15)  For what I am effecting I know not, for not what I will, this I am putting into practice, but what I am hating, this I am doing."
(16)  Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, I am conceding that the law is ideal."
(17)  Yet now it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin making its home in me."
(18)  For I am aware that good is not making its home in me (that is, in my flesh), for to will is lying beside me, yet to be effecting the ideal is not."
(19)  For it is not the good that I will that I am doing, but the evil that I am not willing, this I am putting into practice."
(20)  Now if what I am not willing, this I am doing, it is no longer I who am effecting it, but Sin which is making its home in me."

I am also comforted to know that God's wrath is not directed towards His children (all humanity!) , but rather his wrath is directed towards those evil spirits that have bound and confused and condemned all God's children.  They (the evil spirits) are rightfully destined for the Lake of Fire!

It's a good thing to understand what goes on behind the scenes - the true nature of things. That which is born of God cannot miss the mark (sin) but the flesh..... it's only cure is death.

[believur]

My question is, is there a point at which a human being has become so dead in sin that he cannot be restored to life? Is there anything there to be restored? I believe that the point of the story about the prodigal son is that we believers, we Christians (the Jews in Jesus' day) must be ready to accept the Father's forgiveness of the nonbeliever, the non Christian (the Gentile in Jesus' day) who repents at the Final Judgment, at the end of the day when he has run out of money. But again my question is not about God's forgiveness of the Hitlers or Stalins of this world. God's willingness to forgive is a given. My question is about just what is it that exists inside a Hitler or a Stalin that is able to be induced to repent and to want to be with the Father? One of you suggested that I not look at the flesh nature of a Hitler or Stalin. But what is there behind this mask of our flesh existence?

1 Timothy 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Paul said he was the "chief sinner".  By his own admission, no one was more dead in sin than him.  He was restored mightily, as all will be, in this age or the coming ones.

Luke 3:17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.

The wheat and the chaff both exist inside Hitler and Stalin (in all).  Behind the mask of our flesh existence is the wheat and the chaff.  The chaff is our sin nature which will be consumed.  The wheat is the product of the restoration.  The wheat and chaff exist in everyone, no matter the ratio.  There will always be wheat left to bring to repentance.  It is not His will that any should perish.



JMO