Love Test vs. Born Again

[captamajora]

Thus, we could exalt the "love test" over the born again in Jesus test as to when someone knows God or not.

I am interested in the difference between the "love test" and the "born again test". What would be indicative that one was born again, but different and separate from love?

Jesus said that we would know them by their fruits, and yet you tell me everything that we can witness about a person is of their human effort.  The immense love we may witness is all of themselves (a certainty if they're not Christian), so how would others know them? 

By their Bible knowledge?  By audibly speaking the name of Jesus?

This kind of love is not of ourselves and only originates and flows from Him.

It has only ever been possessed by people who learned about Christ in the Bible?  So people that have never had a Bible, they would have had no chance whatsoever of having the gift?

What about someone born in a time and country when they wouldn't have access to this Bible?  It would have been an impossibility that Christ could reveal Himself to a person in any way?

Christ needs the Bible (a material object) to reveal Himself in The Spirit? 

Bible knowledge doesn't ensure that one could have been given The Spirit. I think we would all agree with this. But does the absence of Bible knowledge ensure that one could not have be given The Spirit?

"And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible." Matthew 19:26

[Kratos]

Does anyone still believe that people must be born again through faith in Jesus Christ to be a partaker of His Spirit? All I have to go by if I am not going to exalt my judgments over God's is the Bible and my own life experiences. I was TOTALLY changed from the day before I bowed my knee to Christ and the day after I was saved. With the heart I believed unto righteousness and with my mouth I confessed unto salvation.

I had human love prior to that day and I had religion prior to that day. But, that day and ever since I had the Love of God shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit and the difference was night and day to me.

Rom 5:5  And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Those who hear the message of UR the first time always ask "Why get saved then if all will eventually be saved anyway"? I always answer because I want all people to experience a relationship with God through Jesus Christ and I want all to know the Love of God which passes all understanding like I have.

Yet, I find myself lately asking the same question here as a member of the Tent. If people in other religions can know God as I do and people in other religions can know the Love of God that I know, why preach the gospel at all? We are supposed to be ambassadors for God going into all the world and compelling others to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. Is this not still necessary and what it means to finish His work as He did for His Father?

I am sure glad that the one who shared the gospel with me did not feel like some of our members do. I am glad that they did not figure that I already knew God without the Bible and that I already was experiencing the kind of Love that they knew through Christ. My last 20+ years would have been like the Hell that I lived for my first 28 years instead of the Heaven on earth that I have known because these people knew I was not alright as I was.

I love my Buddhist and Muslim and Hindu neighbors as myself and want them to not be outside the covenants of God and without hope and without God in the world as I was before I received Christ by faith. He is the only door to knowing God and knowing the Love of God. I will have to stick with the Bible and my own life experiences on this one. I believe that we must respect all peoples regardless of their beliefs, but telling people that all beliefs allow people to know God and know God's Love is not loving them because it leaves them without God as we all were before we knew Jesus.

Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
Eph 2:13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


John

[firstborn888]

I am sure glad that the one who shared the gospel with me did not feel like some of our members do. I am glad that they did not figure that I already knew God without the Bible and that I already was experiencing the kind of Love that they knew through Christ. My last 20+ years would have been like the Hell that I lived for my first 28 years instead of the Heaven on earth that I have known because these people knew I was not alright as I was.

John, those people were people who God used to bring you in. Why would you assume that if those people did not make the effort that you would have been left in darkness for 20 plus years? What if you had never met those folks? Do you believe God could not have reached you without them?

I assure you, He could have and would have. 

Then why preach?

Because God chose that method, but He is not limited to that method. There is enough of God seen in nature - His power is clearly shown. Flesh and blood cannot reveal who Jesus is anyway, right?

God spoke to me with no bible and no people, probably because I had cut myself off from all social interaction and never read the bible.

As far as the term 'born again', why would Jesus expect a leader in Israel (Nicodemus) to already know what it meant when we  are generally told it was impossible to be born again until after the resurrection?

Blessings,
- Byron

[Loveroftruth]

Kratos Wrote

I was TOTALLY changed from the day before I bowed my knee to Christ and the day after I was saved. With the heart I believed unto righteousness and with my mouth I confessed unto salvation.

Brother, I echo that and I cant get past that! What happened to me when I "said the sinners prayer"? something supernatural happened! Something that didn't happen for 21 years before then, something that didn't happen in a unity church, something that didn't happen when I loved my greatest love........ it happened AFTER I said the sinners prayer  :mshock: I was not told anything supernatural would happen, I didn't expect at all to have anything happen, but BAM...... it did.

[hopeful]

Those who hear the message of UR the first time always ask "Why get saved then if all will eventually be saved anyway"? I always answer because I want all people to experience a relationship with God through Jesus Christ and I want all to know the Love of God which passes all understanding like I have.

Amen!   :thumbsup:

[sparrow]

I am sure glad that the one who shared the gospel with me did not feel like some of our members do. I am glad that they did not figure that I already knew God without the Bible and that I already was experiencing the kind of Love that they knew through Christ. My last 20+ years would have been like the Hell that I lived for my first 28 years instead of the Heaven on earth that I have known because these people knew I was not alright as I was.

John, those people were people who God used to bring you in. Why would you assume that if those people did not make the effort that you would have been left in darkness for 20 plus years? What if you had never met those folks? Do you believe God could not have reached you without them?

I assure you, He could have and would have. 

Then why preach?

Because God chose that method, but He is not limited to that method. There is enough of God seen in nature - His power is clearly shown. Flesh and blood cannot reveal who Jesus is anyway, right?

God spoke to me with no bible and no people, probably because I had cut myself off from all social interaction and never read the bible.

As far as the term 'born again', why would Jesus expect a leader in Israel (Nicodemus) to already know what it meant when we  are generally told it was impossible to be born again until after the resurrection?

Blessings,
- Byron

Byron, I agree. God works in many different ways. There is no need to limit Him. 

[shibboleth]

I  am glad for Christine and John that the sinner's prayer "worked" for you. It didn't work for me. I prayed it over and over for years. I went forward at altar calls and I wasn't even out of the church building when I felt the old desire I just prayed to be delivered from coming on me again. We all have our own story about how we came to God; some are dramatic and some, like mine, are more low key.

Since most of the world has no access to a Bible, how does God speak to these people? God is certainly bigger than a book about Him, isn't He? Maybe a tribe of people in the jungle could hear God's voice much easir because they don't have all the interruptions we have....cell phones, TV, radio, traffic, movies, computors. I'm not saying that knowing God from the Bible isn't a precious thing, but, to limit God to a book doesn't seem right. Since God is no respector of persons, how does He show Himself to those without a Bible?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I was as different as day and night also, as I shared in my testimony post.

In fact, about 2 weeks before my experience with the Lord, I met my friend's Baptist pastor, who asked me if Jesus Christ was my savior? I had no idea what he was talking about. Frustrated by my answer, he finally asked me if Jesus lived in me. Again, I told him I had no idea what he was talking about. He didn't explain what he meant, and after he left I told my friend that, "It was a good thing he was her pastor, or I would have told him off. After all, how could another person be living inside me? That was just bizarre."   :megashock:

After I had my experience in meeting the Lord, one day I read the scripture about how no man can confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh except by the power of the Holy Ghost. I asked the Lord how that could be since I believed Jesus Christ had come in the flesh, prior to my spiritual experience.

He said, "No man can confess that Jesus Christ has come IN THEIR FLESH, except by the power of the Holy Ghost."

BIG difference. Huge. About two weeks and four days later, after I had had my experience with the Lord, and I ended up in her church with this same pastor asking me the same questions. This time, though not fully understanding why I was saying it, I found myself answering "yes" to the same questions I was ready to tell him off over. Points out the difference between the spirit of man and the Spirit of God, very succinctly, doesn't it? Blessings to all.......

[Kratos]

The Bible does declare in Romans 1 that He has revealed Himself to everyone that is made through nature and through the awareness of that "God shaped hole" that we all are born with until we meet God personally through Jesus Christ. But we make a big mistake if we think that this means we already all know God and His love personally.

This awareness of God that we all have is a hunger to know God that should cause us to seek Him until we find Him through Jesus Christ. It is human reasoning and again judging the ways of God to say that all have to be able to know God without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them from someone. You may think you found Him on your own without any help if it makes you feel like more of a "self-made" Christian, but no one in the Western world has not ever heard the gospel at one time. This may have been a seed planted unawares that later bore fruit when you were alone as it was for me, but some believer surely planted that seed.

Some ask what about the people in darkest Africa and on the Pacific Islands. Hello? It is called the Great Commission and we are commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Why is that? Because without such preaching they will not be saved until after the Great White Throne Judgment. Please, reread and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal these eternal truths.

Rom 1:15  So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Rom 1:16  For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17  For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

1Co 1:17  For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1Co 1:20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1Co 1:21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

There may be an unconscious attempt on the part of some to be relieved in this hour of our responsibility to the poeple of our generation to preach the gospel so others can be saved through Jesus Christ. It could even be a very conscious attempt on the part of the enemy of God to neutralize the witness of those with the true good news of the salvation of all so we become passive toward the lost thinking that God will just reach them on His own without us. Please do not fall for it. The lost world still needs us because God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to spread the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ and faith in His Name.

Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15  And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

I echo the words of the Holy Spirit through Paul if you have ears to hear them. How can they be saved unless they hear and how can they hear without a preacher. These preachers He is talking about are all of us who bear His Name and contain His Spirit in these earthen vessels.

John

[firstborn888]

It is human reasoning and again judging the ways of God to say that all have to be able to know God without hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ preached to them from someone. You may think you found Him on your own without any help if it makes you feel like more of a "self-made" Christian, but no one in the Western world has not ever heard the gospel at one time. This may have been a seed planted unawares that later bore fruit when you were alone as it was for me, but some believer surely planted that seed.

Can't argue with that. Well, except for the 'self made' part. Sheeesh John!

Some ask what about the people in darkest Africa and on the Pacific Islands. Hello? It is called the Great Commission and we are commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. Why is that? Because without such preaching they will not be saved until after the Great White Throne Judgment. Please, reread and allow the Holy Spirit to reveal these eternal truths.

Rom. 10:14 "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, 'their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world' ". 

Paul is quoting from Psalms 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows His handiwork. 2 Day unto day utters speech, And night unto night reveals knowledge. 3 There is no speech nor language Where their voice is not heard. 4 Their sound has gone out through all the earth, And their words to the end of the world. In them He has set a tabernacle for the sun,  5 Which is like a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, And rejoices like a strong man to run its race. 6 Its rising is from one end of heaven, And its circuit to the other end; And there is nothing hidden from its heat".

I echo the words of the Holy Spirit through Paul if you have ears to hear them. How can they be saved unless they hear and how can they hear without a preacher. These preachers He is talking about are all of us who bear His Name and contain His Spirit in these earthen vessels.

So are you really saying that if a desperate soul in some bibleless, preacherless ancient land (say... 1st century America) listens to his conscience, sees God's power and Godhead revealed in nature and cries out for God with all his heart - then God just ignores him because the ancient seas had not been crossed by preachers yet? 

Seriously?

I guess it may seem lately that I'm just trying to contradict anything you say and I do feel bad about that because you have been and are still a great friend. I admit that I'm purposely playing 'the other side' a bit as I DO have trouble my own self envisioning some Buddhist being filled w/Agape love. I too was born again, instantly transformed and filled with an awesome love I never experienced before. I too experienced wonderful worship in God's presence, at (gulp) Et believing fellowships. I too was given a ravenous hunger for the scriptures.

That being said, I believe the same God that did all those things for me is not limited by my experiences, and I believe the scriptures themselves support this view.

blessings,
- Byron

[Kratos]

Byron,

I do not like to contend with any of my friends here at Tentmaker or otherwise. I seem to always want to oppose any doctrine or slant that makes Christians passive in either their personal walk or in reaching out to the lost. Jesus just said too much about sending and going and about workers in the field for me to believe that our part is not vital in the spreading of the gospel of Christ. I had the draw of God as do those in darkest Africa, and when I sought I found through a human vessel sent by God to me. It is foolishness to the wise to think that this is the plan of God to use man as sowers of seed instead of God saving without us. The foolishness of preaching does confound the wise no doubt. This again comes back to the Bible. Is it as the Bible says or is it as it seems right to us? Here is one of the verses the Lord used to launch me off of my blessed assurance years ago.

Amo 6:1  Woe to them that are at ease in Zion, and trust in the mountain of Samaria, which are named chief of the nations, to whom the house of Israel came!
Amo 6:2  Pass ye unto Calneh, and see; and from thence go ye to Hamath the great: then go down to Gath of the Philistines: be they better than these kingdoms? or their border greater than your border?
Amo 6:3  Ye that put far away the evil day, and cause the seat of violence to come near;
Amo 6:4  That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
Amo 6:5  That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
Amo 6:6  That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments: but they are not grieved for the affliction of Joseph.

My concern is that UR has become another move where we sit on our ivory couches at ease in Zion sharing our heavy revies back and forth, but are no longer grieved for those who are still outside of the covenant of God and without hope and without God in the world. In fact, some would have us believe that Paul was mistaken and no one is outside of the covenants of God and without God in this world. These are God's own words to me, but maybe not to you. I understand that. But to me God is the one who said that we were without hope and without God when we were in the world. So, this is the status of those who have not received Christ and only we can do anything about it.

God's plan, not mine. But how can we walk with God if we determine that His plan is not necessary and people do not need either the Bible or preachers to be saved? How can two walk together if they do not agree?

Peace,

John