What exactly did Jesus suffer in death?

[astrobee]

When Jesus sweat blood the night before His crucifixion and said His soul was crushed with sorrow almost to the point of death, what was it He dreaded so much?

Was it His knowing He would be separated from His Father? Was He separated?

How much of His anxiety was knowing about the physical beating He knew He was going to take?

Thx.

[firstborn888]

Good question, and I'm interested to see the responses. Many minimize Jesus' humanness and say it was only the spiritual side He was concerned about, so I'll say that anticipating the physical part was a part of the anguish.

I tend to take the 'tasted death for every man' description literally though, ie: He experienced all the suffering of humanity from start to finish, including the sense of forsaken-ness which humankind has endured from the beginning.   

blessings,

- Byron

[astrobee]

Byron, thank you for replying. I have a question related to my first post, why did Jesus say, "My Lord, My Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Was this what He dreaded?

Peace

[Pierac]

When Jesus sweat blood the night before His crucifixion and said His soul was crushed with sorrow almost to the point of death, what was it He dreaded so much?

Hi guys, FYI this verse is not in the earliest and more important manuscripts. It's highly contested as a scribe addition to assist against the Gnostic's who said Jesus did not come in the flesh but was Spirit only. Some bibles even have commentary's on this in the margins. The free net bible for e-sword shower this in brackets too. It's (Luke 22:43-44) that is contested, all of it.

Here are some NIV bible notes,

Luk 22:1-71 -
FOOTNOTES

[1]  Luk_22:31 The Greek is plural.
[2]  Luk_22:37 Isa_53:12
[3]  Luk_22:44 Some early manuscripts do not have verses 43 and 44.
[4]  Luk_22:67 Or Messiah

From my textual studies, it is clear at least to me, this verse does not belong in our scriptures. However, it is up to you to do your own research!
Peace,
Paul

[firstborn888]

Byron, thank you for replying. I have a question related to my first post, why did Jesus say, "My Lord, My Lord, why hast thou forsaken me?"
Was this what He dreaded? 

He was representing all of humanity when He spoke that.

blessings,

- Byron

[martincisneros]

Being made sin, according to 2Corinthians 5:21, seems a bit much.  From my Word of Faith background, I heard lots of sermons on 2Corinthians 5:21 from Kenneth Copeland and various others.  And without getting into all of the particulars of how various people in my background would take that passage, it takes on added horrors with a UR perspective, because He even bore the sin of not believing in Him.  He bore the sin [and the condemnation] of those condemned at the White Throne Judgment [in the same way that the Apostle Thomas was condemned for his unbelief], and He bore the punishment due to all of those that'll ever blaspheme the Holy Spirit.  This doesn't lessen the condemnation of the greater offenders.  The prophet Ezekiel describes the Lord doing some redemptive things so that unbelievers would never again open their mouths, so they'd know that He alone is Lord, etc.  Elhanan Winchester is the only Universalist that I've seen so far that's written about those that the Lord saves in such a way and from such a depth of falling from the glory that they'll never again open their mouths. (probably not literally mute evermore, but definitely traumatized by the goodness of the Lord.)

The pleasure of the Lord had to prosper in His Hand.  He bore anything and everything that would have otherwise been a work of the law for us to do.  1Peter 2:24 and 2Corinthians 8:9 say that He bore all of our infirmities and all of our poverty so that we could stand in resistance against those things and receive the supply of the Spirit just the same as we'd resist sin and receive the supply of sanctification from the Spirit.  Isaiah chapters 53 and 54 when read together indicate that He bore all of our dreads, all of our fears, all of our terrors [including the curse of terrorism], and other Scriptures indicate (though this has never been preached even in the most stout Word of Faith circles) that He bore the curse rightly due to entire nations so that believers that would turn to His High Priestly ministry in faith with those particular provisions of the Word could turn around any political situation as they sit with Him in heavenly places and cast out the devil in His Name.

He not only paid for the redemption of all of the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, but He bore the curse that their land bore so that He could reclaim that land.  He bore the crown of thorns not only to redeem us from poverty, but also to reclaim the earth itself.  He reclaimed the keys of death and of the grave with every drop of Blood and by taking to Himself every form of damnation that you can ever think of -- and stuff you could never imagine in this life, if He's laid the foundation for reclaiming ALL of His Creation.

God looked upon sin and thoroughly condemned it at the Cross.  God judged Jesus as if He were Adolf Hitler, Saddam Hussein, serial killers, serial rapists, and everything else you can think of.  Some people argue against substitutionary theology, but I've never seen an adequate handling of 2Corinthians 5:21, 1Peter 2:24, and 2Corinthians 8:9 from that perspective that wouldn't compromise the full weight of our redemption and the right of His Holy Spirit to do anything whatsoever (and not just what the cessationist will allow of His activities in the earth).  I believe it's Isaiah 52:14 in the Amplified Bible that'll indicate that He morphed for a few moments there at the Cross into something so hideous, that no horror movie or sci-fi has ever yet captured.  I don't believe it was just Christ's forgiving heart or quotations of Scripture that made a sufficient impression to where the Centurion said "Surely this was the Son of God."  There were horrors that happened at that Cross in what He bore away in Himself that we'll probably only understand the full depth of when the final prodigal is brought home to Father's House.

Jesus bore everything that it would take His baring in order to accomplish the restoration of every man, woman, child, animal, angel, and Creatures we've never even heard of in mythology.  Jesus died at the end of the ages of sin, not just the end of the ages where our world is concerned if with the telescope we're genuinely looking into the past.  The angel that appeared to Christ in the garden of Gethsemane that strengthened Christ for the torments of damnation that were approaching was the fully restored Lucifer from the future, but I can't get into how I know that right now.  (Cf. "for the joy set before Him")  My Scriptural exegesis gets a little quaint in some people's estimation when I'm just mentioning stuff that pertains to this earth and the creatures that we immediately come into contact with on a daily basis.  God only knows who'd choke if I got into Scriptural exegesis of things not pertaining to this earth.  Probably in about another 10 years I'll be more prepared for writing (with no loopholes) the Gospel to the Angels.  Right now the Lord has me tweaking another subject that I'm presenting to the Body of Christ so that by the end of this year there won't be a millimeter of wiggle room regarding it.  Hopefully I'll have something else that I'm working on finished by the end of this year.  People are going to increasingly flip out over 2012A.D. between now and then and some of what I'm needing to write ASAP addresses some of that.  As soon as I've finished writing out, not only the Animal Covenant from the Scriptures but Animal Eschatology, then, unless the Lord wants me tackling something else, I'm wanting to really get into the subject of Angels from a UR perspective.  The blinders on that subject really come off with UR.

Jesus not only suffered for every evil you could ever hear about, but also for every evil that anybody could ever think of SO THAT Origen's idea of future falls WILL NEVER HAPPEN...

[rds1958]

Well whatever he suffered it was not Hell since there is no Hell..God doesn't spare us from Hell, rather he never created it in the first place..whatever Jesus suffered has to be what we experience now being in a sense cut off or blind to God..for him that would be horrible I'm sure..even if he didn't say forsaken he could still have suffered some sort of spiritual death..

regardless, here we go with more examples of text added by men.  :happy3:  .How can anyone say the Bible is the inspired word of God? Clearly it contains at least some non inspired parts..or were these scribes inspired when they added? And anyway who in the world came up with the idea the Bible was even inspired or written by God anyway? My guess is the same people who put it together so it would buttress their claims to be the mediators between God and man. Paul never said his letters were on the same plane as Gods words..no wonder Jesus and God seem to contradict themselves, half of what is attributed to them they did not even say ! :sigh:

[AbbasChild]

The way I see it is the following:

Jesus through the Incarnation entered into our fallen human existence and its perceived forsakeness by the Father.

But when you have a close look at the garden of Eden and the fall of man, there is no shred of an angry deity.

Rather, Father already has a plan of restoration going before the fall even happend. In fact, Adam and Eve didn't even repent and yet He promises them a Saviour.

(I see the pronounced 'curses' more as a description of what would now come about the world because of their sin.)

Yet, Adam fled from Father with Whom he had enjoyed such wonderful fellowhip before.

The death of Jesus Christ then was the climax of Jesus battle of refusing to believe in Adam's corrupted mythological god.

Scripture tells us that Christ spent His life with much tears and pain. From the moment He became flesh, everything in the cosmos tried to tell Him that His vision and knowledge of Father is not real.

His death took Adam's carnal mind (which is death) into death and thus destroyed the foothold of satan, thus exposing all the principalities and powers that still try to exalt themselves above the knowledge of Father's Heart.

Here's a short article by theologian Baxter Kruger on this:

A few years back I was teaching on the cry of Jesus, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken me" when my friend David Jennings from Vancouver told me about an article that he had on this passage. He emailed it to me the next day. The main point is as surprising as it is beautiful. When we stumble across simple insights like these, we are forced to notice how we bring prejudices and preconceptions into our reading of the Scriptures. In this case, we are forced to notice how we import utterly alien notions about the Father's heart, and how we have built an entire atonement theory out of those false notions. Jesus, please help us.

The following passage has been reproduced from Page 48 of Volume 41 (October 1929 – September 1930) of The Expository Times, (Founded in 1889 by James Hastings, D.D., Edited by A.W. Hastings, M.A. and Rev. E. Hastings. M.A., Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 38 George Street)


Lama sabachthani

'Ezra,' of the Methodist Recorder, who never misses any good thing, had an interesting paragraph lately on the 'Untranslated Words of Jesus' in which he retells a story given by the late Dr. George H. Morrison in an address to children. Some years ago, he says, 'the Late Dr. George H. Morrison met, in Glasgow, General Agha Petros, Commander-in-Chief of the Assyrian Forces during the World War, and had an interesting conversation with him, being most interested by the news that at his home, away up in the mountains behind Nineveh, they still speak the very language that the Lord spoke. Sometimes the children of General Petros, like other bairns, are a little unwilling to get up in a morning, and, if it happens to be one of the girls, his wife will go to the bedroom, and say, "Talitha cumi," which means, "Daughter, it's time to get up." Sometimes, again, when his children come home from school they find the house door shut, and if nobody comes immediately to open it they shout for admittance, and what they shout is a word very familiar to Gospel readers – "Ephphtha." "But," says Dr. Morrison, "I think the last thing he told us was even more interesting. He said this: 'Supposing my wife and I go out some afternoon, and we leave the family at home, and then, suppose we make more calls than we intended, and we are late in getting home. Of course, in this country the children would not mind in the least, but in that country they are never quite safe, and when the darkness comes the children get anxious, and so when I come to the door, the children say, "Lama sabachthani? Father, what has kept you, where have you been, why have you left us like this?"'"'

How far is "Father, what has kept you" from the angry God of Western legalism and His rejection of His Son as he punished him for our sins? May Jesus deliver us from our prejudices about his Father, and may the Holy Spirit give us eyes to see what really happened on the cross. For there the Father, Son and Spirit met and embraced the human race at our absolute and utter worst.

[skydreamer]

Hi,

here's another take on that verse that I found regarding the original Aramaic:

A late Aramaic Bible researcher named George Lamsa claimed that the traditional "forsaken" interpretation is a mistake in the Aramaic scribing that was transferred to later transcriptions. Lamsa claimed that "the correct translation from Aramaic should be "Eli, Eli, lemana shabakthani" or "My God, my God, for this [purpose] I was spared!" or "...for such a purpose have you kept me!") According to Lamsa's translation, that rather than a "loss of faith" Christ meant, to say "so this is my destiny."

http://www.newjerusalemcommunity.net/?c=53&a=1448

that does seem to make more sense to me...

Peace,
Diana