Jesus = sinner ?

[eirinikos]

I had a thought the other day, maybe Im not the first here to have it.

Sinning simply means falling short right? All of the men of God in the OT fell short somehow, yet despite their sin, the plan of God marches on, as if tailored to include sin as part of the process.

Adam fell first, opening the door to need for redemption.

Abraham fell short by going to Hagar.
Moses fell short by disobeying God and did not lead his people into the promised land.
Samson fell short by falling for a heathan woman.
David fell short by adultery and murder.
Solomon fell short by introducing idol worship.

Sin sin sin falling short kept tumbling like a snowball to ultimate destruction through these and many other men. It all led to the corruption that caused God's people to reject and murder their own messiah.

Yet it was still part of the plan.

Now, if Jesus is sent forth to redeem the world, and he falls short of that, then he too is a sinner. And the Son of God cannot sin!

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Good point..... :thumbsup:

[firstborn888]

Good point - but ETers have an answer for that: Arminianists will say Jesus came to give a 'chance' for all to be saved, and accomplished that. Calvinists will say He came to redeem the 'elect' and accomplished that.

To both groups the phrase "Savior of the world" has no meaning  :thumbdown:

- byron

[eirinikos]

I don't know, maybe I've been a UR enthusiast for too long. But both of those beliefs seem so unbelievably absurd.. like how is it that anyone could believe either of those? Then I remember that 99.9999% of all christians still believe it.

Inconceivable.

[shibboleth]

If you look at testimonials about how God revealed UR to many of us, you will find we all had different paths we took before we realized that God was the saviour of all people. But, it was God's timing that finally took the scales from our eyes so we could see the truth about His unconditional love for all people. Most people aren't chosen to see UR because God hasn't chosen to show them the truth about UR.

I have tried to show the truth to a few people and they just couldn't see it. It was as if they were in a trance and I could see they just didn't want to talk about it. I don't talk about it to those who aren't interested anymore. They know where I am if they ever go through the hardships I went through to find out our Father loves all men with an everlasting love

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think you hit the nail on the hear there, Jenna. You have to go thru the hardships and not fall away from Him, before He will take the scales from your eyes to see more, IMO. Ask most people, and I bet there was something major that preceded them coming to the knowledge of it. Call it a hunch  :winkgrin:

[reFORMer]

To see Him, feel Him...Jesus is just so wonderful!  Everyone I've ever known who encounters Him has the same testimony, that He's so good and how they love Him.  No one I've ever heard of says how horrible of a torturer He is.  I've never found a single witness calling Him the King of Evil, which endless torment is:  the worst evil possible to the mind of man.  Religion has Him as the origin and perpetrator of it; but, no one experiencing the Spirit of God that answers to the name of Jesus ever describes Him in any way other than the opposite of such transcendant evil.  The Creator and Sustainer of the most horrible infinite evil from which He allows no escape; The Damner, The Eternal Torturer, these are not what His devotees say of Him.  They call Him The Savior, The Healer, The Prince of Peace.  They have no experience to reference for the idea He'll change into a monster one day as tradition has slanderously reported.

[firstborn888]

I have tried to show the truth to a few people and they just couldn't see it. It was as if they were in a trance

They are in a trance. Some really believe that without eternal hell "Christianity" has no meaning. That's why it's so confusing to them when you take that away, and they just stare into the distance...
  blessings,
- Byron

[squeak]

Excellent point Erinikos!  Excellent point! :thumbsup: