Hopeful Universalism

[valueallhumanlife2008]

Hello everyone,

I am a relatively young christian, and for a while I affirmed universalism before I simply decided to not hold a position on the fate of unbelievers.  It was something I just chose to leave to God.  As someone who Loves everyone and hopes for the best for everyone, I will tell you that I am certainly a hopeful universalist.  That is, although I am uncertain of any particular view, I do fervently hope for the final salvation of all people.  What troubles me is a certain paradox.  It is something I have researched for quite some time.  I have read through many articles, trying to receive an answer to one question.  How does one who believes in eternal damnation cope with such a belief?  Yes we are saved through our faith in Jesus Christ, but can we have peace knowing the vast majority will be damned forever? 

Love for God, and Love for others is one of the main teachings of our Lord and Savior.  He taught us to Love our neighbors, our enemies, the homeless, the sick, sinners and the righteous.  Indeed, He taught us to Love every single soul in the world.  Love for all, compassion for all.  What I've come to realize, is that through Love of others, one person's suffering becomes our own.  When we truly Love others as ourselves, don't we hurt when they hurt?  Aren't we happy when they're happy? 

Eternal damnation, as you know, is the belief that those who fail to receive Christ during their lifetime are to be tormented forever without end.  I cannot comprehend how so many christians are even able to make one smile if this is the fate of so many people.  How can so many christians NOT be driven to insanity?  I just can't help but to wonder that their thinking is "well it's not going to happen to me so it's all good".  If eternal damnation is true, then the fact of the matter is that it is experienced by someone.  Maybe not you or I, but it's experienced by someone, someone who is just like us.  Someone who has feelings.  Remember how I said that through Love, one person's suffering becomes our own?  I cannot perfectly describe the paradox I am trying to present here, but I hope that you can catch on and understand.

Now let's say christians organize the biggest crusade ever?  Yes what if out of the millions of christians, we began the witness all over the world?  Let's just say it's highly successful.  Although around 200,000 people die every day, let's say through some phenomena a day actually comes into existence where not one person dies.  Now let's say it's also the same day that the millions of christians got out there witnessing and by the end of the day they were able to reach every single soul on the face of the planet.  Now that would be a victory wouldn't it?!  At first you can imagine, christians celebrating world wide.  It would be one glorious day, and then we all stop and look at each other.  Although every person alive on the planet today is saved from eternal hell, our efforts can do nothing for the billions upon billions of souls that are already there.

How can a christian who believes in eternal damnation not despair for the rest of their lives?  In Revelation we read that God will one day wipe away every tear.  I certainly hope that "every tear" means "every tear".  But if eternal damnation is true how can this help us here and now?  Does it somehow make the doctrine of eternal damnation any easier to accept?  Yet this is the answer I get when I discuss this paradox with other christians.  How does a believer in eternal damnation cope with their belief?  There were times when I've tried to accept this belief, and I was met with the deepest depression and despairing far worse than any I've ever suffered, and I've been through depressions since I was 12.  Have believers in eternal damnation (that seem to cope with it somehow) failed to take a true look at what they are believing?  Or have they not yet reached the level of Love that Christ commanded?  Or is it that they really at heart do not believe it?  I honestly haven't the slightest clue.

It's not that I'm trying to be arguemenitive with christians who believe this doctrine, I just wish that they can understand.  If they can answer this paradox then I would gladly hear them.  It's something I would certainly like to know.  I've chosen to post this to my christian universalist friends here at tentmaker and to ask you if this is how you feel as well.

God be with you,

Chris

[sparrow]

Hi Chris,

Yep. I went through the same thoughts as you. I am quite peaceful about this subject now, though. Because I realize we are all just human beings.  A lot of people in Churchianity don't THINK through it.... they don't feel their beliefs. They put the unpleasant thought of their "hell" that they believe in out of their minds. They put it on the back burner.... they don't look at it. Therein lies the problem. They do not LOOK at it. They busy theirselves with all sorts of distractions, work, play, family, friends, church functions, volunteering, even winessing, just EVERYTHING BUT using their time to actually LOOK at what it is that they believe in. Why won't they look at it? F-E-A-R.

We all know that Perfect love casts out all fear.
They worship the god of FEAR.
not the God of love.


Then there are those who DO look at it but they have earthly enemies, and the thought of their earthly enemies possibly going to hell, pleases them, pleases that carnal part of them that wishes revenge. (They are not fully thinking through things.) God told us to love our enemies. How can we love our enemies.... if God is going to torment HIS enemies for all eternity? Their god is not much of a role model, is He?  :mblush:

Some people just don't plain care. As long as THEIR family is saved...
(Again, they are not fully thinking through things.)

Some folks DO CARE and DO go almost mad at the thought of hell, but then they turn away from it yet again out of fear, and they never get to the truth. They don't ALLOW theirselves TO go mad! I know I remember my descent into madness over Hell... and I remember our Father reaching out and taking my hand and showing me the way. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me; Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me.THANK GOD!!!  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

We are all human.
Many go the broad way of destruction.... (but we know what the destruction is... we know that eventually all will go through the refiners fire....and God will take us ALL by the hand and lead us, and show us the way.)

Everyone has their path and I will share with others when I feel led to... but I try to wait on Him. I don't push it on anyone. BECAUSE... their ears may not be READY to hear.  A person's heart needs to be in a right condition, or else, it's like casting pearls before swine... They won't see the value and the beauty. Not that you shouldn't spread the word or be a light in the darkness..! You SHOULD! But just don't spread yourself too thin and allow yourself to get discouraged by other's seemingly blindness to the truth. What you say may not affect them right now, but maybe they will remember something your wrote or said 3 years or 10 years from now that may be a stepping stone on their path to truth. :) God works in mysterious ways....



(in my opinion.)

Peace to you, my friend,

:HeartThrob:,
sparrow

[reFORMer]

I've tentatively thought for some time that people born of the Spirit do not actually believe in endless torture.  Because, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God," then without any "word of God" revealing any endless torture there can be no real faith in it.  Mistranslated or misunderstood Scripture, a belief in what some other "man of God" said, reasonings of men, however encountered:  these can't produce the kind of faith produced by what God actually says.  The Holy Spirit is NOT bearing witness to their spirits that eternal torment is true.  Indoctrination is inferior to insemination.  Obsession is inferior to the quickening of the Spirit.  To be wise in our own conceits is inferior to being convicted of righteousness and judgment by the Holy Spirit.  The problem with so many is they're not aware of how little they know or pay attention to God.  Because this failure to be intimate with God is so much more important than the various details of what results from the lack of that relationship, God's work on that relational deficiency in our lives is like the axe laid to the base of the tree, while particular beliefs and behaviors are like the fruit on the tree.  The closeness with God is a matter of love.  Because of lack of love people who have encountered the Lord are deceived and caught in destuctive practices, often unaware of it, even sometimes thinking it is something good from God.

(The rest here I quote myself from another post:)  "He said, "I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground." (Isaiah 44³)  The problem is people are not thirsty.  Their ground is not dry enough.  They feel satisfied in themselves.  Their knowledge seems sufficient...until the trial is upon them.

"When we come to the dealings of God, if not for others, then at least our own self, and are under the conviction of sin, we know we are doomed except we obtain the work of Christ as our own.  After initiation into the Spirit, when I found I knew not my day of visitation and I had sinned before His face, I was, "Cut off suddenly, and that without remedy."  Now that it was too late I most desperately sought the mercy of God.  "Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him..." (Joel 2¹⁴)

"If we actually love those who are suffering, we will seek Him Who, "Was moved with compassion and healed their sick."  If we could love enough we would seek in abandoned desperation for some kind of mercy, a little something left over as He passed by for those of our children or brethren that are doomed as we suppose because of what we were taught.  He would answer and lead us to those truths so clearly stated in the Scripture, such as, "God is not willing that any should perish..." and that, "...God our Saviour...will have all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2^3-4)"

[Kratos]

Reformer,

Great post. You are right that mental ascent does not produce Bible faith. It is only the revealed Word which does not come by flesh or blood, but from the Father in Heaven.  :goodone:

John

[Our Wings are Burning]

Hello everyone,

I am a relatively young christian, and for a while I affirmed universalism before I simply decided to not hold a position on the fate of unbelievers.  It was something I just chose to leave to God.  As someone who Loves everyone and hopes for the best for everyone, I will tell you that I am certainly a hopeful universalist.  That is, although I am uncertain of any particular view, I do fervently hope for the final salvation of all people.  What troubles me is a certain paradox.  It is something I have researched for quite some time.  I have read through many articles, trying to receive an answer to one question.  How does one who believes in eternal damnation cope with such a belief?  Yes we are saved through our faith in Jesus Christ, but can we have peace knowing the vast majority will be damned forever? 

Love for God, and Love for others is one of the main teachings of our Lord and Savior.  He taught us to Love our neighbors, our enemies, the homeless, the sick, sinners and the righteous.  Indeed, He taught us to Love every single soul in the world.  Love for all, compassion for all.  What I've come to realize, is that through Love of others, one person's suffering becomes our own.  When we truly Love others as ourselves, don't we hurt when they hurt?  Aren't we happy when they're happy? 

Eternal damnation, as you know, is the belief that those who fail to receive Christ during their lifetime are to be tormented forever without end.  I cannot comprehend how so many christians are even able to make one smile if this is the fate of so many people.  How can so many christians NOT be driven to insanity?  I just can't help but to wonder that their thinking is "well it's not going to happen to me so it's all good".  If eternal damnation is true, then the fact of the matter is that it is experienced by someone.  Maybe not you or I, but it's experienced by someone, someone who is just like us.  Someone who has feelings.  Remember how I said that through Love, one person's suffering becomes our own?  I cannot perfectly describe the paradox I am trying to present here, but I hope that you can catch on and understand.

Now let's say christians organize the biggest crusade ever?  Yes what if out of the millions of christians, we began the witness all over the world?  Let's just say it's highly successful.  Although around 200,000 people die every day, let's say through some phenomena a day actually comes into existence where not one person dies.  Now let's say it's also the same day that the millions of christians got out there witnessing and by the end of the day they were able to reach every single soul on the face of the planet.  Now that would be a victory wouldn't it?!  At first you can imagine, christians celebrating world wide.  It would be one glorious day, and then we all stop and look at each other.  Although every person alive on the planet today is saved from eternal hell, our efforts can do nothing for the billions upon billions of souls that are already there.

How can a christian who believes in eternal damnation not despair for the rest of their lives?  In Revelation we read that God will one day wipe away every tear.  I certainly hope that "every tear" means "every tear".  But if eternal damnation is true how can this help us here and now?  Does it somehow make the doctrine of eternal damnation any easier to accept?  Yet this is the answer I get when I discuss this paradox with other christians.  How does a believer in eternal damnation cope with their belief?  There were times when I've tried to accept this belief, and I was met with the deepest depression and despairing far worse than any I've ever suffered, and I've been through depressions since I was 12.  Have believers in eternal damnation (that seem to cope with it somehow) failed to take a true look at what they are believing?  Or have they not yet reached the level of Love that Christ commanded?  Or is it that they really at heart do not believe it?  I honestly haven't the slightest clue.

It's not that I'm trying to be arguemenitive with christians who believe this doctrine, I just wish that they can understand.  If they can answer this paradox then I would gladly hear them.  It's something I would certainly like to know.  I've chosen to post this to my christian universalist friends here at tentmaker and to ask you if this is how you feel as well.

God be with you,

Chris

Hi Chris,

I've "been a Christian" most of my life and had a conversion experience at the age of 13.  I just within the last year accepted Christian Universalism (I'm 21 now), and I look back on my life before it, and wonder how I myself dealt with all the things you just wrote.

Granted, I was different from a lot of Christians in that I went through the fear eternal damnation : get reassurance from pastor / family / friends : live normal life : fear eternal damnation ... cycle for several years.  It seems most Christians nowadays just blindly accept the "Pray a magical prayer, get saved, and once you're saved, you're always saved" rule.

When I wasn't fearing for my eternal soul, I guess, like Sparrow said, I just "put it on the back burner."  I was (and still am, to some extent) a very shy individual, especially when it came to my faith.  Now, when I think about why I was so afraid to share my faith, I more and more am realizing that it was because of the doctrine of ET that I didn't want to share my beliefs.  In the back of my mind (or, probably more often, in the front of my mind) was the fear that if anyone told me that eternal torment and a loving God didn't line up, I wouldn't have an answer for them and I would dishonor God and my faith.  I figured there was some superior knowledge that some mature Christians had that would get them out of a situation like that that I had yet to learn.

Since I wasn't witnessing, the verse about God being ashamed of you if you're ashamed of Him haunted me and added to my fear.  I tried to justify myself by saying that I wasn't ashamed of Him, just afraid of doing Him a disservice by saying the wrong thing and making Christians look like idiots.  So, I think I can honestly say that I've never shared my faith with a non-believer in the traditional sense because of ET.

The funny thing is, now that I'm a believer in UR, I think I'd be more afraid to share the whole extent of my beliefs with Christians than non-Christians.  I used to be afraid just to read my Bible in public, for fear of being confronted or laughed at.  Now I do it all the time and don't really care.  Was I ashamed of Jesus before?  Maybe, but since I've left ET behind, I'm starting to think it was the stigma that Christians have brought on themselves that I was more ashamed of.  The only reason I haven't really witnessed to anyone since becoming a believer in UR is because now I see that I can't (and shouldn't try to) force my beliefs on others.  If God wants to give me an opportunity to share my beliefs, I will, but I'm not going to harass people who don't want to hear about it.  (Although several of my Christian friends probably know about it from facebook notes where I make it quite obvious, no one has really approached me about it yet.)

I've told one girl from a college Christian group I'm involved with about my beliefs because she told me that before she was saved, she didn't see how it was fair that only Christians get to go to heaven, and that she feared for her family and friends' eternities.  I wrote her a long letter about my beliefs, and we are going to (hopefully) have a serious discussion about it soon.  She has a heart of gold, and seems like someone who may be open to this belief.  I want to make sure that (like Sparrow said) I'm not "casting pearls before swine" and that those I approach are ready to listen.  I keep my eyes open for those who God may be showing me are ready to receive it.

I hope I didn't go too far off on a tangent :)

[HappyBoy!]

What a great thread.  I really track with Our Wings are Burning's reply.  It took 'till age 39 for me to abandon ET.  I'm glad you figured it out at 21!

vallueallhumanlife2008, you may want to check out this link http://www.sigler.org/slagle/new_page_3.htm  Charles Slagle talks about his experience with trying to cope and his thoughts on how others do it.  I've downloaded the whole Slagle section to my PDA and read when ever I need a boost.  I can so relate to his writings. 

Kind regards.

[Our Wings are Burning]

No offense, but I didn't figure anything out  :bigGrin:

God figured it out for me.  There were so many small circumstances that led to me having this revealed to me that even if one thing didn't happen, I never would have found out.  Thank God!  :thumbsup:

[HappyBoy!]

Credit where it is due  :bigGrin:

[reFORMer]

Whenever I get feeling depressed, and there are many causes, I just remind myself of two things:  1.) how Jesus "saved" me from sin, changing my nature, motivating me to seek Him 'til I found out how it was by grace, and through a faith that's according to grace that He does it, bringing His presence that cannot sin into our experience more and more (I could have stayed a slave with a darkened mind like others I pray for;) and, 2.) how He set me free from thinking God was of such a nature to make most people be tortured without ceasing to understand instead how He really is love, and He won't give up on anybody, but will purify, free and perfect everyone of them, even if it takes a million years.  My eyes get tears of thankfullness and joy when I consider these two great kindnesses of God toward me instead of where I could've been left.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen to that Reformer......were it not for the grace of God, there go I......