Law and Grace

[Kratos]

Hello All,

I am usually so sure of what I believe and why, but my wife and I have been really seeking light on something that we see as vitally important and keep going back and forth on this one. I would love some input from those who have something from the Lord on it.

Years ago, we settled the truth that we are saved without the works of the Law. In fact, I have taught for years the cautions included in Galatians 3 and 5 that if we begin to come back under the Law (be circumcized) that we fall from grace and what Christ has done for us becomes of no effect to us. Obviously a serious matter.

I have always believed that the Law (Torah) was given to the Jews only during the parenthetical period from Moses to Christ and has nothing to do with Christians. But, there is a Messianic believer that I work with who often sends teaching videos by his rabbi in Colorado and one I heard recently really got me thinking. This man is a born-again, spirit filled rabbi and he teaches that the coming back together of Israel and Judah in our generation comes when the Church (spiritual Israel) begins to teach the Jews about Jesus and born again Jews (Judah) teach the Church about the Torah.

He makes it clear that he knows that no one will be saved by keeping the Law and that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness sake. But, he contends that the Torah can still be used to know what is sin and it can teach habits that will cause Christians to prosper financially, physically, socially, and spiritually. He says that whenever we violate God's laws (Torah) we end up working for free for seven days as the enemy can steal from us, but when we live the Torah as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, we will prosper in all areas of life.

I will never do anything to feel right with God as my righteousness in through Jesus Christ alone, but I would love to be more successful in my life as a witness to others. Plus, we know that Overcoming and the judgment seat of Christ do deal with the deeds we have done in our bodies since being saved so can we really ignore what God says is sin since through the Law (Torah) we gain the knowledge of sin.

I know that rabbis have added traditions of men since the Babylonian captivity like the Talmud so I am not talking about that. I am only talking about what is revealed by the Holy Spirit from the first 5 books of the Bible. We certainly would not think that we will prosper in life while committing adultary though we are still saved through Jesus. So, what about eating pork and shellfish etc. Is this sin and to be avoided by a Christian so we can prosper in life and at the judgement or was this for Jews alone?

John

[Taffy]

Hello All,

I am usually so sure of what I believe and why, but my wife and I have been really seeking light on something that we see as vitally important and keep going back and forth on this one. I would love some input from those who have something from the Lord on it.

Years ago, we settled the truth that we are saved without the works of the Law. In fact, I have taught for years the cautions included in Galatians 3 and 5 that if we begin to come back under the Law (be circumcized) that we fall from grace and what Christ has done for us becomes of no effect to us. Obviously a serious matter.

I have always believed that the Law (Torah) was given to the Jews only during the parenthetical period from Moses to Christ and has nothing to do with Christians. But, there is a Messianic believer that I work with who often sends teaching videos by his rabbi in Colorado and one I heard recently really got me thinking. This man is a born-again, spirit filled rabbi and he teaches that the coming back together of Israel and Judah in our generation comes when the Church (spiritual Israel) begins to teach the Jews about Jesus and born again Jews (Judah) teach the Church about the Torah.

He makes it clear that he knows that no one will be saved by keeping the Law and that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness sake. But, he contends that the Torah can still be used to know what is sin and it can teach habits that will cause Christians to prosper financially, physically, socially, and spiritually. He says that whenever we violate God's laws (Torah) we end up working for free for seven days as the enemy can steal from us, but when we live the Torah as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, we will prosper in all areas of life.

I will never do anything to feel right with God as my righteousness in through Jesus Christ alone, but I would love to be more successful in my life as a witness to others. Plus, we know that Overcoming and the judgment seat of Christ do deal with the deeds we have done in our bodies since being saved so can we really ignore what God says is sin since through the Law (Torah) we gain the knowledge of sin.

I know that rabbis have added traditions of men since the Babylonian captivity like the Talmud so I am not talking about that. I am only talking about what is revealed by the Holy Spirit from the first 5 books of the Bible. We certainly would not think that we will prosper in life while committing adultary though we are still saved through Jesus. So, what about eating pork and shellfish etc. Is this sin and to be avoided by a Christian so we can prosper in life and at the judgement or was this for Jews alone?

John

Hi John..Welcome to TM...

You make logical sence............and  maybe i can grasp your somewhat confusion

If I may..........in some respect my wife and I HAVE been where you are....

As you KNOW...we re SAVED IN Christ...not LAW keeping...under GRACE not LAW...



I fI may be somewhat Brutal......We really must put those laws in perspective..THEY ARE SHADOWS of a SPIRITUAL Truth WHICH all POINT TO Christ...

Col 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:


Col 2:17  Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body ( REALITY)[is] of Christ

The LAW was a shadow  OF THAT WHICH WAS TO FOLLOW......a physical reality of a Spiritual Truth....

Im ex wwcg...they had food laws , they had health laws, in fact they had Laws  to the color of the car you could buy.........how LOW the Hem of the skirt was..the length of HAIR..etc..
.

for mine, im not for one minute suggesting we dont REAP what we SOW....

BUT OUR SALVATION DOESNT DEPEND ON any LAW KEEPING...

Just to add...as for so called unclean food... for many a year abstained from eating such things....like its going to make life FOREVER...im 46..6 ft 2"...had no fat...200 pounds..your natural athlete...if you could see me NOW...youd Laugh..

..Ive never smoked, at one time , as fit as Many...

As scripture states...........the FLESH..profits NOTHING...in more than just one way

Taffy

[willieH]

willieH: Hi John... Peace brother...  :Peace2:

I'd like to comment and ask a few questions about this topic...

Hello All,

I am usually so sure of what I believe and why, but my wife and I have been really seeking light on something that we see as vitally important and keep going back and forth on this one. I would love some input from those who have something from the Lord on it.

Years ago, we settled the truth that we are saved without the works of the Law. In fact, I have taught for years the cautions included in Galatians 3 and 5 that if we begin to come back under the Law (be circumcized) that we fall from grace and what Christ has done for us becomes of no effect to us. Obviously a serious matter.

From my view... we NEVER fall from Grace... because we never HAVE it as a POSSESSION, or is it imparted to us to fall from... GRACE is the continuing presence in which CHRIST WORKS within the life... We do not invalidate His Work, from disobedience... what we do is LOSE REWARD in that we depart, even momentarily from that GRACE by WORKING OURSELVES... If WE are "working" in any given moment, CHRIST is NOT...

FEAR is induced by the thinking that one can "FALL" from Grace... However, ...Fear is NOT a part of LOVE... GOD is LOVE... and therefore FEAR is NOT a part of GOD... (1 John 4:18)

I have always believed that the Law (Torah) was given to the Jews only during the parenthetical period from Moses to Christ and has nothing to do with Christians.

I find slight error in this thinking John (take it or leave it)... CHRIST did NOT come to do AWAY with the LAW... But to FULFILL it by the SPIRITUAL... the Law is the foundation, and only the BEGINNING of what should be within us... for instance, not only are we not to KILL (natural), but we are not even to give place to ANGER (Spirit), for if we are NOT ANGRY with our neighbor (spiritual action), we shall surely NOT KILL him! (natural action)

But, there is a Messianic believer that I work with who often sends teaching videos by his rabbi in Colorado and one I heard recently really got me thinking. This man is a born-again, spirit filled rabbi and he teaches that the coming back together of Israel and Judah in our generation comes when the Church (spiritual Israel) begins to teach the Jews about Jesus and born again Jews (Judah) teach the Church about the Torah.

I believe that the concept I just posed to you, is of that thinking... I believe that a Jew who is become FREE in CHRIST (not bound by LAW)... rather FREED by GRACE, which is LARGER than the LAW, but related to it concerning its foundational perspective...

The "messianic Jew" is one of few that are not blinded, and (possibly) a closer entity to the vine which is GOD, than ones which are grafted in (gentiles)... which is a respect I have no problem paying to both GOD and His Children, Israel...

He makes it clear that he knows that no one will be saved by keeping the Law and that Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness sake. But, he contends that the Torah can still be used to know what is sin and it can teach habits that will cause Christians to prosper financially, physically, socially, and spiritually. He says that whenever we violate God's laws (Torah) we end up working for free for seven days as the enemy can steal from us, but when we live the Torah as led and empowered by the Holy Spirit, we will prosper in all areas of life.

I agree that living according to the basics of the Law of God, is indicative to CHRIST working in the life... I believe that our WORKS remain assets of REWARD, only when done of HIM within... If for some reason, we should claim "our own goodness", we thereby rob our Saviors Glory...

GOD shall bless according to HIS ORDAINATIONS, not according to our "goodie works" or our desire to prosper, from doing those works... this is primarily centered on self...

We should seek SUBMISSION, and any DEGREE of the resulting rewards or blessings, be they LARGE or SMALL, which come our way should be accepted as results which meet our approval and thanksgiving...

I will never do anything to feel right with God as my righteousness in through Jesus Christ alone, but I would love to be more successful in my life as a witness to others. Plus, we know that Overcoming and the judgment seat of Christ do deal with the deeds we have done in our bodies since being saved so can we really ignore what God says is sin since through the Law (Torah) we gain the knowledge of sin.

:mblush: Not sure what you are saying here...   :JCThink: :blush:

I know that rabbis have added traditions of men since the Babylonian captivity like the Talmud so I am not talking about that. I am only talking about what is revealed by the Holy Spirit from the first 5 books of the Bible. We certainly would not think that we will prosper in life while committing adultary though we are still saved through Jesus. So, what about eating pork and shellfish etc. Is this sin and to be avoided by a Christian so we can prosper in life and at the judgement or was this for Jews alone?

To add back ALL LAW, to me is to lay the burden of works around our necks... You are welcome to accept this bro... but, I just see it as PHYSICAL/Natural burdens...

This is not to say that the Jews which know CHRIST, cannot teach us of Spiritual things contained in the Torah... but if their teaching offerings from TORAH, have a PHYSICAL basis (such as reinstituting dietary laws - abstaining from eating shellfish, pork, etc), then I do not believe they are SPIRITUAL in essence...

The dietary laws (amongst others) were given in the NATURAL and DEALT with the NATURAL... But CHRIST FULFILLED the NATURAL, and came to free us from WORKING (obedience to LAW)... and to SUBMIT to His presence and WORK... which entails HIS WORK, ...IN ...US!  :thumbsup:

If ALL begin to abstain from the eating of certain foods named as unclean in the Torah... then the sorrows of the hunger and starvation problem is just increased on earth...

In the end John, ...it is up to GOD to lead, and so I am not writing to try to convince you one way or the other, ...just suggesting that you continue to follow GOD's leading in your life... and do what you believe to be His leading...

As for me, I believe we have been FOREVER relieved of such burdens... and GOD is well able to bless the eating of a cardboard box if he so chose... let alone given foods which HAVE nutrional benefit to offer to our bodies... (Btw, I dont like pork products anyhoo!  :Sparkletooth:)

In judgment, it is not so much, what was PHYSICALLY introduced INTO our bodies (although they are the PRECIOUS temple of God and deserve our reverence and respect)...

Rather... what it (judgment) shall deal more with, ...is what was SPIRITUALLY introduced into our SPIRIT (heart)... (Mk 7:8 / Mk 7:18-23)  For these introductions, ...can result in MORAL DEFILEMENT, ...not physical...

peACe me bratha...  :afFro:

In  JESUS...willieH  :gamer:

[Seeker]

Kratos,

This is a really deep question!  I'm not sure what my opionion is yet, but I wanted to tell you how much I appreciate you sharing this question with the rest of us.

SeekerRuth

[Taffy]

Hi Wilie H
From my view... we NEVER fall from Grace... because we never HAVE it as a POSSESSION, or is it imparted to us to fall from... GRACE is the continuing presence in which CHRIST WORKS within the life... We do not invalidate His Work, from disobedience... what we do is LOSE REWARD in that we depart, even momentarily from that GRACE by WORKING OURSELVES... If WE are "working" in any given moment, CHRIST is NOT...

FEAR is induced by the thinking that one can "FALL" from Grace... However, ...Fear is NOT a part of LOVE... GOD is LOVE... and therefore FEAR is NOT a part of GOD... (1 John 4:18)


Willie my man..its not for mine to cross swords here BRO..and for sure I can see the BIG picture with what Your Saying...but maybe you forget Bro, all are not AS ADVANCED as you

The YOUNG DO INDEED fall from Grace..I no  need quote scripture to you..or else Paul would have said NOT....

your quote on FEAR...Maybe Bro,,theres an alternative way of looking at that??...
Fear is induced NOT FROM the fear of falling from GRACE. ..but  justification by law... in that people refer to the carnal mind set...if you will will..to fall back to what  they feel COMFORTABLE or accustomed to. OR justified with...hence the  early Converts....or am I missing something ???? :icon_flower:

Blessings

Taffy

[Kratos]

Willie,

Thanks for the response. Not arguing, but here are the verses I was refering to:

5:1  Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal 5:2  Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3  For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4  Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5  For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

It seems clear that for a Christian to believe that they had to be circumsized after they believed in order to be a part of God's covenant people was falling from grace and coming back under the Law. In this case, according to the Holy Spirit through Paul, would make what Christ did for us to become of no effect to us. This is my concern. And yet, the same aposlte Paul said:

1Co 9:24  Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25  And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27  But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

This man of God who knew that we are saved by faith and without works, also, kept his body under discipline so that he would not be a castaway. I do not for a minute think that he feared loosing his salvation, but he was concerned whether he would be an Overcomer and partake in the first resurrection. Thus, it is about loss of reward and not about being rghteous before God.

John

[lovetruth]

i believe paul was telling the galatians that they had fallen away from a core understanding, which was grace, God with us, that we do not have to climb a ladder into the heavenly realms or dig a hole into the hell of ourselves to reach God, but that He has come to us and we need only rest in His working and trust His Good purposes.

these believers had begun to climb a ladder again, not believing that God was working but that they were somehow missing out on something.  so, we fall from grace by falling back into the old functioning (like taffy said).  this causes Christ's work to have no effect in us because we are right back where we were before and not walking in the freedom He came to give us.

we aren't missing out on anything unless we are missing Him right here where we are right now.

kratos,
i believe that training the body has value and blessing for this life.  nothing wrong with exercise and good diets and a disciplined lifestyle (and the principles in the Torah are often VERY healthy), but these things aren't spiritual and are no help to keeping down sin.  
only walking with the Father in Christ Jesus saves us from sin.  when we are walking in Him, we are free to practice healthy lifestyles.  but life is more than the body and focussing on externals can be a deep trap that is very difficult to climb back out of.
grace and peace be with you.  :HeartThrob:

[SeekerSA]

Hi John

I was looking yesterday at the writing styles of John and 1 John 2 stood out to me as an admonition.

There are good dietary tips in the law and I have heard testimonies of some that have benefitted from this.

I would say observance is optional and there are really some laws no longer applicable like stoning children that do not obey/respect parents.

Any movement to observe the law IMO cherry picking takes place and through that we are in the possible trap of adopting a man-made tradition.

I spoke with a Messianic Jew recently and quizzed him on if they still observe the law after becoming born-again and this was his reply

Just a few questions regarding this statement from your web page.

Jews always remain Jews by birth.  A Jew will never be a Gentile.  Yeshua was born a Jew in Bethlehem, and all His first followers were all Jews.  A Jew does not have to convert to Christianity to be saved.  A Jewish man or woman simply needs to accept Yeshua as your Mashiach (Messiah), as promised in your own Torah.

Does this mean you continnue in the ways of the Old Covenant or by accepting Jesus, you now conform to the New Covenant?

I may be reading this wrong but this would be the same as a statement to Gentiles that they should merely believe in Jesus for salvation,

i.e. I believe in Jesus = I am saved

Surely the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a natural progression to being saved, I am not talking about the traditional speaking in tongues as evidence but the scripture: -

Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, If a man loves Me, he will keep My
Word. And My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode
with him.

Does your views include the re-birth (born-again)?

Reply

Yes to your questions.  Messianic Jews nearly always retain their Jewish holidays and worship on the Sabbath (Saturday).  The early apostles, Jews themselves, all did the same.  However, once one accepts Yeshua into their hearts as the awaited Messiah and their
Lord --there really is no compulsion in religion anymore.  That's because Yeshua paid the price for our sins fully.  He was the awaited korban/sacrificial lamb.  His suffering and death for us set us free.  Free from the Old Testament Laws, including compulsory Saturday (or even Sunday) worship --as well as from the Old "Laws" like the ten Commandments.

To worship Yeshua/Jesus is to do so in complete freedom.  Although the ten Commandments, part of the Law of Moses is gone along with anything compulsory--what is right and wrong (thou shall not kill, honor thy father & mother, etc) are written in our hearts anew by the Holy Spirit of God.

The apostle Paul wrote we are not to any longer be under any compulsion to worship God on any holy day or Sabbath (or Sunday). We are to worship God on every day he said.

One who sincerely asks Jesus/Yeshua into their hearts and asks His forgiveness for their sins and at least tries to sin no more, has their sins washed away by the Lamb of God who went to the slaughter freely for us. 

They are also "saved" and born anew.

Hope this helps

BIC

[AbbasChild]

For some time I was connected to a lot of messianic jews and was also into the extreme Israelsim and all that stuff.
The question for me is, that if we can get any blessings by keeping the law or in that case curses by not keeping it, what does it mean that Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the law.
Of course its good to live healthy and not to abuse your body, but that's just common sense if you think about that it is the temple of the Holy Spirit.
The law still has its value in the sense that it points to Christ and when we look at it we schould ask ourselves: what does it tell me about Him? How did He fulfill it and how is it fulfilled in my life through His Spirit within me?
We also need to remember that rabbinical judaism is derived from the teachings of the pharisees. They were the first ones who build synagoges etc.
That doesn't mean they are evil or something, I just think we need to be carefull of jewish influences upon our faith, so we might not be caught up in bondage again.

[Kratos]

Thank you for your replies. I guess it is about being led by the Spirit to understand what God is saying in the Spirit by what is written in the Torah.

So, whereas my Messianic friend is adamant about keeping "shovat" (I am not sure how it is spelled) where he will not work on Saturday and they have sedar dinner etc. I just need to know that Jesus is my Sabbath and stay at rest concerning my righteousness before God. Is this what you are saying?

And when God says not to eat pork or shellfish, I understand that it is not what goes into the body that defiles our bodies, but I remember that my god is not to be my belly and I use restraint to eat what I feel by the leading of the Spirit what is good for me and do not let my flesh rule over me by its desires and lusts for food that is not good for me. Right?

And the Spirit behind not mixing threads in my garments or seeds in my garden is not to mix the soulical activities with those of the Spirit.

Is this what we mean by the spirit of the law verses the letter of the law. That the flesh profits nothing.

John

[lovetruth]

i believe so, john.  i believe that He is the Foundation from which all grows.  in Him, rooted and grounded in Him, there is freedom.  our job is simply to continue to seek what is central and cling to Him. 

beyond that we find individuality and variety and a beautiful, complex body which grows from being ruled by the Head.  isn't it cool that the Head gives totally different directions to the hand, the foot and the eye?  yet they all work together to express the life that flows from the Head.

follow torah externally if it fits you in Him.  if not, don't!  :bgdance:

just remain rooted and grounded in love, doing all just for love of Him.  :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

Thank you for your replies. I guess it is about being led by the Spirit to understand what God is saying in the Spirit by what is written in the Torah.

Hi Again John..
Its encouraging to hear your feeling some what clearer on what you have been going throu..

yep...That which is FIRST is Physical which BEARS witness to that which comes second ..the spiritual..which I term as this..a physical reality showing a Spiritual Truth , being caught as we ll have been witha Physical mindset, its ONLY when Christ removes the Viel to we Begin to see,..you just might be amazed just HOW Carnal even the Apostles were prior to conversion

So, whereas my Messianic friend is adamant about keeping "shovat" (I am not sure how it is spelled) where he will not work on Saturday and they have sedar dinner etc. I just need to know that Jesus is my Sabbath and stay at rest concerning my righteousness before God. Is this what you are saying?

From experience  once bieng a part of arguably one of the most moderen Day legalistic churches ..The WWCG and ex Sabbath Keeper ...

Then Yes...The sabbath was a SHADOW a physical reality showing Us a spiritual Truth..Christ IS the Sabbath...HE is our REST

And when God says not to eat pork or shellfish, I understand that it is not what goes into the body that defiles our bodies, but I remember that my god is not to be my belly and I use restraint to eat what I feel by the leading of the Spirit what is good for me and do not let my flesh rule over me by its desires and lusts for food that is not good for me. Right?

You can eat what you wish..Righteouness is FOUND in Only ONE...CHRIST.

And the Spirit behind not mixing threads in my garments or seeds in my garden is not to mix the soulical activities with those of the Spirit.

Is this what we mean by the spirit of the law verses the letter of the law. That the flesh profits nothing.

Theres no such Term " as the SPIRIT of the LAW"..you wont find it in Scripture..its called the LAW of the Spirit which is entirely different...
But yes the FLESH indeed profits nothing, something that in Math 19?? even the Apostles couldnt grasp at the Time...

Sorryfor NOW for the lack of scriptural references, but my Daughter needs this lappy...time for me to go

Blessings
Taffy

[lovetruth]

Theres no such Term " as the SPIRIT of the LAW"..you wont find it in Scripture..its called the LAW of the Spirit which is entirely different...

wow!  bam.  that hit me afresh.  thanks, taffy.  :thumbsup:

[Kratos]

It seems that the key is to learn the spiritual truth behind the physical law. But, it may be true that there is benefit behind the physical one if it is not done to establish our righteousness. On another forum a brother mentioned that he has diabetis and that he does a lot better when he eats what God says to eat. Another poster said that they gave up pork in obedience to God and was so much healthier that now if they eat it, it makes them sick.

It reminds me a little of an earlier thread about husbands and wives and their parts in the church. It was mentioned that the spiritual truth behind this is that the spirit is male and the soul female and this soul is the "woman" that must keep silent in the church and the man (spirit) should only speak. But, if we do not maintain God's order in the marriage, how will the generations coming up know what it means for a soul to submit to a spirit? The natural type must be maintained so we can have an example by which to learn the spiritual.

John

[arcticmonster2003]

I was actually thinking about the laws of the old testament the other day. Specifically the 10 commandments. I received new understanding on these. There is an important point in understanding the 10 commandments, these laws are vital for a kingdom that is to be establish forever. These laws are spiritual. Though these laws are not heeded in our law of the land here on earth, we can also notice that no single kingdom has ever lasted very long (relatively speaking) without some change in leadership structure or just complete annihilation nor will they ever last very long if the 10 commandments are not held as necessary. People will point to sabbath, but the sabbath is necessary for both rest and serving the lord, the trick to this one is that unless you live in a country that indeed makes this a law, though you may want to follow it, you will often be forced to work on sabbath, its important to remember that "masters" (employers) are the ones who need to let their servants (employees) rest , without being asked by this servant, as God has commanded it, yet we know that not many give any heed to what God wants. I actually worked at a store where the managers were Christian, and they said we counldn't close down on Sundays because we need the profit, I didn't argue, but I sure thought that if they chose to let the employees observe their sabbath that God's hand is certainly big enough to bring the store blessings :winkgrin:
I guess God has given each a different measure of faith. And even common sense tells most people that the "weekend" is in most cases, off, so our common sense says 2 days off a week, God has only asked employers for 1, yet many jobs I have worked have given me none! :sigh:

anyway, the other laws to many are common sense and easily achieved with the law of love, others are just protective, as for the food laws, lets remember that we don't yet know why we have so many diseases, many could be related to food, it seems like the only diseases delt with back then were leprosy and boils which are skin conditions. Only at certain times of punishment were they stuck with other diseases.

I think that oftentimes what happens is that people confuse the laws with the punishments, afterall some of these punishments come into fruitition even today without any man to judge for instance - a women commits adultery, her husband finds out and kills her or a man commits fornication and catches AIDS and dies. Focusing more on the punishment and less on the law. The punishment I think is oftentimes God just telling us what is going to happen.

Anyway, I do believe that the law is a good thing, however, I must make a seperation right now between following the law and salvation, which God achieved for us through Jesus, by himself so that no man can boast about their works.

[noname]

my 1 cent on this:

the law (10 commandments) was given to us to prevent harm coming to us, it is and was never intended to punish us. We bring judgment upon ourselves by not following what God intended us to be.

the rich young man asked Jesus how he could be saved, and Jesus answered him by obeying the law.
when the young man said that he did not transgress any of the laws since childhood, Jesus then further tested his "heart attitude" and told him to sell all his possesions, give it to the poor and follow him (Jesus).
this was too much for the young man, as he was very rich and could not find it in his heart to let go of Babylon and enter the Kingdom.

thus, the rich young man did not really from the heart "love God with all his heart, mind and soul and his fellow human being as himself" as Jesus summed up the law. The law was not written on his heart but an external "legal requirement" for him.

and because we are under grace does not mean that we must not perform any "works"...if we look at Revelation and the part on the judgment at the white throne, the judge (Jesus) specifically says that all men would be judged on what they have done on earth...he then gives examples of those "good works" ie feeding the poor, giving a glass of water to the thirsty etc etc

I have learnt some time ago that if we are to become priests and kings after the order of Melchizedek, then we should serve God in the heavens and man on earth...just like Jesus did, just like Melchizedek did, just like Jacob did (his dream of the angels ascending and descending to earth on the ladder is a vision of this).
We should serve our fellow man (on earth) by instruction from above (from heaven).
by doing this we become co-workers of Christ and his angels..

the grace we are given is to serve God because through his Messiah, our sins are forgiven and "staying in him" we do not transgress the law as he is the fulfillment of the law.
and how do we "stay in him and he in us"?
by obeying his commandments and following his life's example

anyway, those are my thoughts...comments?

[Livelystone]

Hi noname

That is about how I see it.

Blessings

Doug