Thankful for salvation?

[captamajora]

I always wondered this to myself when I was a kid and I still do today (even in the light of UR).  What are we supposed to be so thankful for? 

I'm quite certain that this question is eliciting gasps from some people reading this right now. Stick with me here...

The entire concept of "salvation" requires something to be saved from. What are we being saved from?  The Bible is quite clear that we are being saved from sin and death. These will both be eradicated- no one will be dead or subject to death and there will be no sin (or the byproducts of sin- suffering, sickness, hate, etc).

So now I have to ask myself- Ok, but why was I in a situation of needing to be saved in the first place?  It wasn't my choice to be subject to sin and death. It wasn't my choice to be in need of salvation.

"For the creation was subject to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the One who subjected it, in hope that creation itself would be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8:20-21

Isaiah 45:7 reads, "I make peace and create evil. I, the Lord, do all these things." 

So, there is a hope that we will be liberated from our bondage of decay.  Where did the decay come from?  God created the decay (evil).  Where did our bondage to the decay come from?  The creation was subjected to the bondage by God. So God created the decay and then forced us (not by our own choice) to be in bondage to it.

Now we are told that this God is going save us from this situation.  Now God is going to save us from the situation that he forced us into. Because of this we are expected to jumping up and down, doing back flips, and falling on our face in thanks.

A father takes his helpless little boy and chains him in a dark underground chamber.  It is  dark and cold and the boy is horrified by the situation that was forced upon him.  Slowly this situation is killing him and he knows that he will not live long.  After a few years, the father sends a written note down (along with his daily slop) saying that he will eventually "save" him from that situation. "Yes, I will eventually rescue you from the pit that I threw you into and when I do, I expect you to be profoundly appreciative."

Consider that salvation for a moment again.  If you are then "saved" from the pit that you were forced into, have then just reached a state of equilibrium?  Haven't then just received something that you deserved?  I have always differed from religionists on this factor as well.  They always say "We don't deserve salvation.  Isn't amazing that God is giving us salvation to pathetic sinners such as us." 

Yes, we completely deserve it!  In fact, it is OWED to us. I don't find it amazing that God should be giving something to us that he owes us. He is "saving" us from a situation that He put us into. Some church people say, "Yes, but God didn't have to do this at all..."  Sure, but then you get into a whole different debate.  What kind of God would that be? 

Now, I can't speak about what will happen after salvation. I can't speak about what kind of gifts that we will or will not have.  Salvation FROM our situation is a different story.

God knocked me down into the dirt and now He's going to pick me back up. Sure, I'm greatful that He's helping me back up but I still remember that it was Him who knocked me down.

I have a reserved gratitude.  I'm certainly not going to jump up and down, shout, and weep with thanksgiving.

[gr8wuf]

Some of your questions are way too deep for me, but I can answer what I am thankful for.

I look at salvation as something that is happening in the here and now. I have this wonderful gift of being alive and Jesus work on the cross enables me to work together with his spirit to change me (in this lifetime) from a caterpillar to a beautiful butterfly. As I work through this life, I am changed from what I am now closer to what I will be then.

I believe it is a beautiful process even though it involves difficulties and challenges. I embrace the process and find joy in it.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi and welcome again to the board. No gasps here to worry about; I don't think there's much here that hasn't been asked. I just touched somewhat on what you asked here on another post, so I'm going to cut and paste part of my reply here for you.....

:cloud9: Part of the "problem" on this and any other board that you could name including the ex-Christian sites, is that God's working with us is like being in different grades in school. We are all in a different stage of Him working the fulness of Christ in us and thru us, we are all at different places in our understanding of things, even things shown to us by the Spirit. There are seasons for everything under the sun, and those seasons are being worked in us by God also. There is NO shame and NO condemnation in that, it is of God's doing, we had no choice in it, we were lowered into this bondage of corruption (of our own particular carnal mind leanings and the flesh it produced) NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him who subjected us.

So what does that mean to us, really? It means we were put here to walk out EXACTLY what you are walking out now, whatever that may be. Sin simply means to miss the mark and the mark is the mind of Christ, ie. to think about things as God thinks about things, and this by the revelation of the SPIRIT of the mind of Christ. God did not put us here in this state, so He could then condemn us for something we had no control over. What He did do is put us here, and then show us the way out is thru Christ, Christ IN US (not Christ out there somewhere), the hope of glory.

It's sorta like if you have a small child and you let them play outside in the mud all day. They're having the time of their life, you're enjoying watching them and loving them, mud bath and all. But because you love them and you don't want them coming back into the nice clean house and staying in that condition permanently, you point them to the way to the shower first. No one would criticize that parent as being mean for doing this. It's the same way with God. He wants what is best for us, and since He made us, He knows us better than we know ourselves. All of the things He allowed us to walk thru, are no more than a little extra mud to Him. He just wanted us to learn to prefer to be clean and to see the difference between the two, by EXPERIENCE. And the reason it works, is the same reason you don't find many adults still playing in the mud and staying dirty.  :laughing7:

He could have left us one with Him from the foundation of the world, already perfect in Christ, but we could never know in that state by experience what it was like to PREFER Him above all "others", if there had never been others. I'm sure all of us have experienced at least once what it feels like to have someone love and prefer you above all others. What if they never knew anyone but you? Would that still be as precious to you, as knowing you were selected, preferred above others?

Now you say He is not in you. I disagree. He formed you in your mother's womb, He is the breath that you breathe. He was always there, just as He was always in me, even before I had my testimonial experience I related. As He showed me down the road a bit, I just never knew Him until my heart turned to Him and acknowledged Him as Lord, and then He "appeared" to me in my consciousness, for lack of a better word to explain it. But He was always in me.

My consciousness, the "me" part of the equation, let's call it, did not know Him, because we are separated from Him only in our minds. (NO, I am not New Age, I'm just tired of them using words I need). At the moment that my heart turned towards the Lord, He APPEARED. His appearing is not a one-time-only event as most were taught in the churches, but is an active verb, as in He has appeared, He is appearing, and He will appear. He is, for this reason, the same, yesterday, today and tomorrow, ie. the same in that He is forever appearing to us, revealing more of Himself to us. These are the times of "refreshing" that were spoken about, that were to come. Kinda like another shower to wash off a little more of the "mud". No man can see the Father (thru the mind of Christ) and live (in his own ways anymore).

The things that we thought about God are being challenged on all fronts and that really is a good thing, although it can be very painful and even frightening to let go of things we have held dear and held as Truth. GOD Himself is allowing this, as the Word says that when HE comes, He will shake everything in (our) heaven (minds) and our earth (flesh). He is shaking them now, as He begins to consummate His union with His pure celestial bride.

He said we would know them by the love that they have, one for another. Notice He didn't say we would know them by them having all the same doctrines. As God makes His SPIRIT to rise up in us, and we surrender to that unconditional love, not judging where our brother is in the walk that the Lord has laid before HIM, lest we ourselves be judged by the same measure, His love will bring the true unity that does not come from doctrinal agreement as it's root, but from His SPIRIT, which is love.

I may not agree with anything anyone else posts on this board, because of where He has me at right now, nor certainly they with me, but because I have found my center which is unshakable, I know one thing;  if I continue to press in FOR ME, the only thing I am going to find is His love and if we were one with Him from the foundation of the world which has to be Spirit, then we're STILL all one with Him, we're just in varying stages of recognition of that fact, because there is no time in the Spirit. And NO MAN ever hated his own "flesh" (Christ), we just thought we did, for a season........Blessings to all and to you.........

[Mickiel]

I always wondered this to myself when I was a kind and I still do today (even in the light of UR).  What are we supposed to be so thankful for? 

I'm quite certain that this question is eliciting gasps from some people reading this right now. Stick with me here...

The entire concept of "salvation" requires something to be saved from. What are we being saved from?  The Bible is quite clear that we are being saved from sin and death. These will both be eradicated- no one will be dead or subject to death and there will be no sin (or the byproducts of sin- suffering, sickness, hate, etc).

I have a reserved gratitude.  I'm certainly not going to jump up and down, shout, and weep with thanksgiving.

Interesting point of view, which can be disected according to how a person is in their nature. Thankfullness comes from Graditude and appreciation and that varys in people according to just how they are in their mental make up. A realistic view of things does tend to guage our emotions one way or another, and a realistic view of what God has done to humanity, once understood, could cause a wide range of emotional response. From bitterness to thankfulness, and any place inbetween. I think God understands them all, and we understand mostly what we ourselves tend to feel about it. Which is why I tend not to trust my emotions, but guage what God has done according to my intellect and reasonings.

I think thankfulness tends to be an offshoot of Joy, and Joy, being a fruit of the Spirit, is something that comes from God himself, which is imparted " Into the Human", so concerning a Spiritual look at thankfulness, one could say that our thankfulness comes from God, and if we don't have it, its just not been given. To what degree we do have it, it was given to us, not created or " Worked up" on our own.

Still then there is human thankfulness, which is a " Carnal Joy", or a fleshly sense of gratitude, which I think is very common in some people. I look at " Comedians", who seem to have a natural sense of humor, which I think is an expression of some level of " Inner Joy", that simply gives them a more happy stance in life, and a Joyful way of looking at things. Not to say that Comedians can't get sad or unthankful, but they seem more inclinded to look at things " Not so seriously as others", but will find that part of Joy in it.

I think a serious look at what God is doing and has done, can very well cause some to become bitter, or just not be thankful about it at all. And I certainly understand that. One may jump and shout, whereas another may weep and cry, such is how we are made. Some are made with more than others, or less, but we are made and influenced by many things that are of Gods doing, and  are not of Gods doing. The bible does speak about unthankfullness growing in the ranks of humanity, and I think it correct to say that it will grow in some believers.

It barrells down to how you look at thinks, your own approach to situations that you had no control over. One example I like to use is the Lifeguard that saved a woman who was drowning. He could only grab her by her hair and pull her out. The womans response was anger and arrogance, as she called him an idiot and told him that he hurt her as her dragged her to safety. She asked him why he did what he was doing, to which he responded;" Lady, I'm sorry, I was focused on saving your Life."

One may question why he grabbed her hair, another may question what difference it makes, he saved her. Still another may suggest that he could have saved her without hurting her, while another may observe her aittitude of unthankfullness and think to themselves that he should have let her drown.

But no matter how it is viewed, the bottom line is that the Woman will live to see another day no matter how she or others feel about it.

Peace.

[Dreamer]

Welcome, captamajora.

I don't see myself as the little helpless, hopeless and ungrateful little dungeon boy.

I rather see that I'm an heiress to the riches of a Daddy that decided to make me and later let me go out on my own in order to experience life. 

Instead of keeping me forever an innocent babe, He loved me enough to give me the chance to learn what is good and what is evil so that when I do inherit what He has graciously given me, I'll know how to love and to  treasure what should be loved and treasured.  The experience is rich.

All the while, Daddy never left -- He's always there with great advice, leading me the right way whenever I'm lost or think I am.

Without going out on my own I'd be nothing but a spoiled, ungrateful, little rich girl who'd never learn how to truly love others and most likely I'd squander all my riches.  I'd have nothing and have nothing to share or give.

In this world we're being prepared and unlike the dungeon boy we're not without help or hope. 

He gave us life and the opportunity to live and for that we should be thankful.  He didn't have to make you or me but He did.  Salvation is your inheritance.  He didn't have to give it to you but He is.

[captamajora]

One example I like to use is the Lifeguard that saved a woman who was drowning. He could only grab her by her hair and pull her out. The womans response was anger and arrogance, as she called him an idiot and told him that he hurt her as her dragged her to safety. She asked him why he did what he was doing, to which he responded;" Lady, I'm sorry, I was focused on saving your Life."

One may question why he grabbed her hair, another may question what difference it makes, he saved her. Still another may suggest that he could have saved her without hurting her, while another may observe her aittitude of unthankfullness and think to themselves that he should have let her drown.

But no matter how it is viewed, the bottom line is that the Woman will live to see another day no matter how she or others feel about it.

Yeah, but you're forgetting that it was the lifeguard who threw the woman in the water in the first place. 

I'm not questioning the manner of saving. I'm questioning the concept of the Savior saving us from something that He created. Can that really even be called "saving"?

If an arson pulls people out of a house that he lit on fire, can he later be praised for being a "hero"...or did he just do what was owed to those people?

When the woman gets rescued by the lifeguard, does she fall at his feet and praise him for saving her when it was him who threw her in the water in the first place.

Would you praise the lifeguard as a hero and think of him pulling you from the water as a "gift"? 

The bottom line is that the lifeguard (God) is only saving us from His own doings.

Like I said...I don't fall into the "I'm a good for nothing human who doesn't deserve salvation but because of God's love, he has decided to give it to us" category that so many churchgoers fall into.

Yes, I do deserve salvation.  Everybody deserves salvation!  Not because we have earned it by what we have done but because it was not our choice to be put in this situation. It is owed to us not because of what he have done but what we have NOT done (choose to be born into a life of sin and death).

God is simply returning to us what he took away. He's just giving us what he rightly owes us...

Salvation is always referred to as a gift, but you can't owe somebody a gift.

Somebody takes something from you without asking. Then they later give back what they took from you in the beginning. Do you then thank them for their gift?  True, that person doesn't have to pay you back.  You are greatful that they paid you back, but it would be ridiculous to consider it as a gift!

I believe that there may be gifts that come after salvation, but salvation itself is not one.

IMO, salvation is not a gift. It is a reparation.

[Mickiel]

I'm questioning the concept of the Savior saving us from something that He created. Can that really even be called "saving."

If an arson pulls people out of a house that he lit on fire, can he later be praised for being a "hero"...or did he just do what was owed to those people.

When the woman gets rescued by the lifeguard, does she fall at his feet and praise him for saving her when it was him who threw her in the water in the first place.

Would you?

The bottom line is that the lifeguard (God) is only saving us from His own doings.

Well I think you are correct in the " Concept of being saved by the one who condemned you in the first place." I share your view of God starting all of this in the first place, or he put us in the water to drown, then he saves us, so is that really being " Saved." Well no it is not, not if you view it as you are viewing it. It cannot be considered " Saving", or Salvation. It can still be consider " Receiving an Inheritence" and the bible covers that angle also.

From another angle, the whole thing can be considered " Foolishness", kind of like healing a person, by injecting more of the infection into their bloodstream, yet even we humans do that in the medical field, which I don't understand that either, but the bottom line is that it seems to work. It does not make sense to me, but it works.

Theres a lot of things that God has done which does not make sense to me, but its working. Why he choose to do Salvation as he has done, from this point of view we are discussing, I don't know, but can we say its not going to work? Whatever you may choose to call his plan, " Saving people", Salvation or " Weird", the bottom line is still, " Is it going to result in our Living?" Now I can be stubborn, unthankful or whatever, if you throw me into the water, if you pull me out, we can discuss the whats and why of it, or we can criticize the whole concept of it, but one thing I will admit, I would like to be alive and involved in the discussion, weather I am angry or not, thankful or not, or weather you threw me in there or not.

So I think the end result should overide the beginning of some things, and we be content with that, until God explains himself further, lest a root of bitterness floods into our curiosity. Its good to think on a thing as deep as we can, without drowing the overall meaning involved. In the sense you are speaking, no, we are not being saved. But many willnot be able to think with you on those terms.

Peace