Is evil a deal breaker?

[claypot]

Just thinking out loud here but if evil is here to teach us does this make evil good?

What do we learn from evil that God couldn't teach us without it?

Our human life is but a moment but our spiritual life is always. Will we go from glory to glory after this segment of life?

The horrible suffering of Job and the mind blowing suffering of Jesus truly are realities that boggle my heart and mind. The tortures, the lions, the fires, the mutilations, the insanity and so on that humans suffer and then we have the joy, peace, comforts, strength, contentment that often come our way are mysteries to me. Heaven will be all good, why couldn't this earthly existence be all good?

We can learn deep things without experiencing evil I think.

I often wonder about our God and how strong He is to create a realm that is so vicious and cruel.

Ross, could you ever imagine yourself creating a world where such evil exists for whatever reason?

I do trust God but I do understand why evil is a deal breaker for many.

cp

[guest6795]

Pretty much everything this one says always has countless scriptures contesting it.

Just thinking out loud here but if evil is here to teach us does this make evil good?

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.

I often wonder about our God and how strong  :eek: He is to create a realm that is so vicious and cruel.
Ross, could you ever imagine yourself creating a world where such evil exists for whatever reason?

No lie. - This is absolute ignorance of everything God is.  But I think you know that.

Job 4:17
Can a mortal be more righteous than God?

[guest6795]

Interesting that wisdom, by definition, comes from experience: ergo we must have many experiences to gain wisdom.

Experiences don't bring wisdom.
Someone can have many experiences and still be unwise.

I know rich people in high positions (whom have also been living a long time) and who have had many experiences (above which regular people typically get a chance to sample)... and they are far from wise.

Wisdom comes 'from' the LORD. - IF ANYONE ask the LORD; they will gain wisdom.

James 1:5
"If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you".

1 Timothy 4:12
"Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity".

[guest6795]

So, evil is there to teach us.

My teacher is God/Christ.

God 'uses' evil to teach... But evil is out to hinder and destroy and is 'the' enemy, and is there to lead people FROM the truth and from wisdom and all things: 'godly'.

[Ross]

Evil is not all inclusive.
There are varying types.
Wisdom does come from experience: however that wisdom seems to come when God grants us understanding.
Personally, I can claim nothing from my own efforts- I was brought down to the bottom before mercy opened up the truth about who we are and why we are here. Then this explains everything with no room for anything but Christ.

[Ross]

So, evil is there to teach us.

My teacher is God/Christ.

God 'uses' evil to teach... But evil is out to hinder and destroy and is 'the' enemy, and is there to lead people FROM the truth and from wisdom and all things: 'godly'.

I agree.
The enemy does distract from the truth adding so many plausible reasons why we should just "do what we want ".
Money is used, IMO, as a little example of misuse of power. Those with money able to control social structure and influence their surroundings.
Those without money in the hands of those with money.
Similar to those claiming to be ministers of righteousness having influence or control of those in their congregation.
So much to learn.

[jabcat]

So, evil is there to teach us.

My teacher is God/Christ.

God 'uses' evil to teach... But evil is out to hinder and destroy and is 'the' enemy, and is there to lead people FROM the truth and from wisdom and all things: 'godly'.

I agree.
The enemy does distract from the truth adding so many plausible reasons why we should just "do what we want ".
Money is used, IMO, as a little example of misuse of power. Those with money able to control social structure and influence their surroundings.
Those without money in the hands of those with money.
Similar to those claiming to be ministers of righteousness having influence or control of those in their congregation.
So much to learn.

:thumbsup:

[guest6795]

Evil is not all inclusive.
There are varying types.
Wisdom does come from experience: however that wisdom seems to come when God grants us understanding.
Personally, I can claim nothing from my own efforts- I was brought down to the bottom before mercy opened up the truth about who we are and why we are here. Then this explains everything with no room for anything but Christ.

I'm not sure what you mean by: 'all-inclusive'? - There are many ways I could read that, but wouldn't want to put words in anyone's mouth. 
Do you mean all evil isn't the same?

Consider this:-
If wisdom came from experiences; those with the most experiences would be the wisest - and that is not the case. 
We see plenty: 'wise' young people with little experiences and plenty: 'unwise' old people with many experiences.
Even in my own life... I was sometimes: 'wiser' when I was younger (and yet with less experience) - It all depended on how near or far I was to Our Father. 

If someone doesn't have reverence/regard for God (which is the 'start' OF wisdom); they won't learn wisdom from anywhere else, and this: no matter how many experiences they may or may not have.

From experiences comes experiences. - But not wisdom.

Wisdom comes from the Lord.

"For Yahweh Himself gives wisdom."  = Proverbs 2:6

[guest6795]

So, evil is there to teach us.

My teacher is God/Christ.

God 'uses' evil to teach... But evil is out to hinder and destroy and is 'the' enemy, and is there to lead people FROM the truth and from wisdom and all things: 'godly'.

I agree.
The enemy does distract from the truth adding so many plausible reasons why we should just "do what we want ".
Money is used, IMO, as a little example of misuse of power. Those with money able to control social structure and influence their surroundings.
Those without money in the hands of those with money.
Similar to those claiming to be ministers of righteousness having influence or control of those in their congregation.
So much to learn.

Yes.
"The evildoer heeds ungodly speak". - Proverbs 17:4
What is bound/loosed on earth is bound/loosed in heaven.
The present leaders reveal the spiritual condition of the people. 
It is the people who: 'feed the beast' - giving them their money and their power, because they are ignorant to whom they are under God. - A generation of morons that can't see what is plainly in front of them, that stand for nothing and fall for everything.
The present leaders are exactly what this apostate generation has reaped.

[Ross]

Wisdom from experience doesn't mean every experience. Can actually be one event.
The wisdom of man does not compare with God.
Knowledge about a trade is required: experience gives the wisdom of how to do the job.
Varying levels of wisdom is displayed by how well one does the job.
1 Corinthians 1:20- 2:16 is a good expression of what I am attempting to put in my words.

Evil not being all inclusive- we are surrounded by evil,  but there is also good. Some interactions and jobs are actually positive.

There are also different intensities of evil.
Still evil, just greater side effects.

Good to try and explain something, that helps clarify a lot and delete the rubbish.
I have seen/heard people arguing- both making the same point but in different ways.
English is pretty diverse. Just looking at a thesaurus presenting the other words that are similar to the word one is using can be kind of amusing or confusing.
The church history has had wars about words
The meaning of love by man is nowhere near the meaning of love that God displays.
Have heard many sermons about 1 Corinthians 13- just not seen them demonstrated. That could be why Jesus said hear what they say but don't copy what they do.
Growing in Christ gives the whole meaning of life.

[Ross]

P.S- the one event still needs to be pointed out by God.

[guest6795]

Wisdom from experience doesn't mean every experience. Can actually be one event.

How can someone obtain ANY wisdom from an experience if they don't know God Who is the Source of wisdom itself?
Or maybe you are seeing two kinds of wisdom here?  (Man and God's)?

Knowledge about a trade is required: experience gives the wisdom of how to do the job.

I get what you are saying.
I would say that experience gives experience. - And that's why it's called: 'work experience' and not say... 'Work-wisdom'.
For example there might be two mechanics, both learned and experienced and EQUALLY good at their jobs... But the one that knows the Lord is WISER than the one who does not; because (godly) wisdom comes from the Lord and not from experience or learning.

I do agree that words can be understood in different ways, and that there is a: 'mans wisdom' and a: 'godly wisdom'.
 
For example: to the world; a man who loves his enemies and gives away all his possessions to the poor seems stupid (unwise).
Or a man who goes against the worlds' system of (so-called): 'science', and culture and religion (etc), would also be branded unwise (foolish).  There is a 'wisdom' of the world and a wisdom from God, and the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God (and those with the mind of Christ can see that) as you say.

Varying levels of wisdom is displayed by how well one does the job.

Let's say an: 'experienced' world leader with lots of knowledge about 'leading' wants to depopulate the earth.
Now... he does a REALLY GOOD JOB of this and manages to kill millions. 

...Is he wise?

No he isn't. 
Why not? 
Because he doesn't know God.

He only has: 'mans wisdom' (which is really no wisdom at all (since it is foolishness)).

I think this maybe explains things a little better from both our perspectives?  :HeartThrob:

[guest6795]

The meaning of love by man is nowhere near the meaning of love that God displays.
Have heard many sermons about 1 Corinthians 13- just not seen them demonstrated.

If someone wrongs me these days; I do two rights as my own way of overcoming their wrong. - Using their evil for greater good helps me deal with it (changing water into wine).

I had a really intense encounter with God many years ago and have searched for that love since - hoping to find some in others.  I find that as a believers' knowledge increases - the world get's darker (as one learn the depths of Satan), and the spiritual infancy of the many is revealed, and it is difficult (as you say); to find any real/Godly love in others for companionship or brotherhood.  Jesus once asked:
"How long must I suffer you". 
And yet; all this while our love also increases as we grow in the knowledge of God; giving us the ability to be patient in all things and with all people.

[Ross]

Indeed "who is the source of wisdom?"
1 Chronicles 22:12 "Only the Lord give you wisdom and understanding "
1 Corinthians 3:19 "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. "
1 Corinthians 2:5 "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man. "
2 Corinthians 1:12 " For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, NOT WITH FLESHLY WISDOM  BUT BY THE GRACE OF GOD, we have behaved ourselves in the world and more abundantly towards you. "
James 3:15-17 "This wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly,sensual, and devilish: from where there is envying and strife there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable gentle and open to reason, full of mercy and good fruit, without partiality and without hypocrisy. "

The Oxford dictionary gives "mans' definition of wisdom: broad and full intelligence
- skill in management of affairs
-the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience and summed up in maxims and proverbs
The translation of Greek in the new testament says- devout and proper prudence in communication with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth.

Colossians 2;2-4 " That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all the riches of the FULL ASSURANCE of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God and of Christ:
IN WHOM ARE HID ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE.
And I say this lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. "

I have been agreeing with you about this wisdom thing. I realise I had not differentiated between God's and mans

[guest6795]

Indeed "who is the source of wisdom?"
1 Chronicles 22:12 "Only the Lord give you wisdom and understanding "
1 Corinthians 3:19 "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. "
1 Corinthians 2:5 "That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of man. "
2 Corinthians 1:12 " For our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, NOT WITH FLESHLY WISDOM  BUT BY THE GRACE OF GOD, we have behaved ourselves in the world and more abundantly towards you. "
James 3:15-17 "This wisdom does not come down from above, but is earthly,sensual, and devilish: from where there is envying and strife there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable gentle and open to reason, full of mercy and good fruit, without partiality and without hypocrisy. "

The Oxford dictionary gives "mans' definition of wisdom: broad and full intelligence
- skill in management of affairs
-the varied knowledge of things human and divine, acquired by acuteness and experience and summed up in maxims and proverbs
The translation of Greek in the new testament says- devout and proper prudence in communication with men not disciples of Christ, skill and discretion in imparting Christian truth.

Colossians 2;2-4 " That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and to all the riches of the FULL ASSURANCE of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God and of Christ:
IN WHOM ARE HID ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE.
And I say this lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. "

I have been agreeing with you about this wisdom thing. I realise I had not differentiated between God's and mans

Thank you for that.

The definition of man's wisdom reminds me of how they: 'Profess to be wise and thus became fools'.

Proverbs 14:12
"There is a way that seems right to men, but in the end it leads to death".

[marie glen]

I figure evil came about because if Eden, thus creation had no power of choice, no option to stray, creation would have to be a mere ant farm. I also think God is Life so he suffers and lives through all that ever occurs! Why would he put himself through all that!? I suppose? Because he?s not creating an ant farm but an enduring paradise/perfection for instead what is bejng accomplished is total ?herd? immunity from straying from God who is Life and ?is perfect?.. So to stray is to become imperfect which prognosis is the opposite of Life. It?s also an abyss of potential. But, would we really rather have no power of choice? But isn?t that a part of being able to think and reason? And is an ant farm a paradise? Or the sort of family God is creating..?
:Peace2:

[guest6795]

I figure evil came about because if Eden, thus creation had no power of choice, no option to stray, creation would have to be a mere ant farm.

Lol agreed!
Amen to all you say Marie.

I also think God is Life so he suffers and lives through all that ever occurs!

Yes! 
We live, breath and have our very be-ing in Him!
We are His temples!
Earth is His footstool!
He walks in us!
This is why I laugh when people say we have no free will.  :laughing7: They have no idea who they are and Who God is or what life really is.  If we don't have free will; neither does God Who walks in us and Who is life itself. 

"One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all".
Ephesians 4:6

Our will is God's will at the end of the day. (Those with eyes can see that).  Our freedom is found only in Him.  By losing ourselves we find ourselves.  In Him we find rest, because we are his offspring.

If someone says we have no free will, what they are really saying (in their ignorance) is that God has no free will; and they make: 'life' being a puppet/robot/zombie, or something else lifeless; thus: 'godless'. 
We are co-creators.

Why would he put himself through all that!? I suppose? Because he?s not creating an ant farm but an enduring paradise/perfection for instead what is bejng accomplished is total ?herd? immunity from straying from God who is Life and ?is perfect?.. So to stray is to become imperfect which prognosis is the opposite of Life. It?s also an abyss of potential. But, would we really rather have no power of choice? But isn?t that a part of being able to think and reason? And is an ant farm a paradise? Or the sort of family God is creating..?
:Peace2:

People often come away with: 'The Problem Of evil'. (Dun dun dun)...
('If God is good why is there evil'?)
I always like to ask them the: 'Problem Of Good'... 
'If God is evil, why is there good'?

If any of us need to go into the 'following' death (lake of fire), we will know 'exactly' why and from the spiritual perspective we have whilst out of the body (and which some of us are understanding now); we will fully agree with the decision, because we are all part of God and there will be no room for anything unholy in His Kingdom.  He is Father of all.  And... Everyone wants to be perfect... They are just stubborn as to following God's will which makes it so.

[claypot]

hi Marie. You said "I figure evil came about because if Eden, thus creation had no power of choice, no option to stray, creation would have to be a mere ant farm."

I think in Eden, like in the Kingdom of God, there is the power of choice. Do we need the option to stray to make living in Heaven not be an ant farm? I ask respectfully.

To talk about evil can become abstract and I started this thread with the idea in my head and heart how some innocent girl getting raped by a bad guy is good for us. Is keeping someone alive just so they can be tortured a good lesson for us?

I trust God and I know there is a purpose for evil or He wouldn't allow it but it really boggles my mind. I don't think we will need evil in Heaven to keep appreciating our Father. I do agree that I have learned something from evil that God couldn't have taught be some other way, but I'm not sure what.

cp

[marie glen]

hi Marie. You said "I figure evil came about because if Eden, thus creation had no power of choice, no option to stray, creation would have to be a mere ant farm."

I think in Eden, like in the Kingdom of God, there is the power of choice. Do we need the option to stray to make living in Heaven not be an ant farm? I ask respectfully.

To talk about evil can become abstract and I started this thread with the idea in my head and heart how some innocent girl getting raped by a bad guy is good for us. Is keeping someone alive just so they can be tortured a good lesson for us?

I trust God and I know there is a purpose for evil or He wouldn't allow it but it really boggles my mind. I don't think we will need evil in Heaven to keep appreciating our Father. I do agree that I have learned something from evil that God couldn't have taught be some other way, but I'm not sure what.

cp

I?m not really saying evil is allowed to bring about Good, what I think is as creator before sny act of creation he coukd see all possibilities.. Yet then when you get down to it, wasn?t there really only two basic choices? Create genuinely able to think and reason beings, which includes at least some power of choice - which! Would change everything! Or not, no able to make choices beings.
   And having chosen - tho HE suffers and lives through all things that ever occur(!) he chose to endow thinking. Then, if it?s not allowed to run its course.. even completely, what exactly woukd be the point and would he have to babysit everyone.. forever?
    So if a car jumps the curb and breaks my leg, it?s not because God said break her leg so she learns such and such.. I?m come to think of the two options as either Total Ant Farm or Total ?Herd? Immunity.. And so prophesied is the callapse and war called apocalypse.. which ?smoke/memory of will rise forever? and all will be repulsed from straying/disobedience. And thankfully in comparison, this will all seem like a moment..
   ?The lion will eat straw like the ox?. It being not so much an issue of what God hAs created, but what He is creating. Imo :gsmile:
  Gotta run can?t proofread. :doh:

[marie glen]

?

:thumbsup: Amen to all! :gsmile:

[claypot]

Can what we learn through evil be taught to us in any other way?

If our wills are created from Perfection then why do we choose evil? Jesus had a free will and He always choose good. Why don't we? Jesus overcame the Devil, why don't we?

Can God make thinking reasoning beings without evil?

Will we always have evil in Heaven so we can always have the opportunity to choose it? Will Heaven be less perfect or like a prison because we can't choose to leave? Will Heaven be like an ant farm or herd?

cp

[darryl]

Can what we learn through evil be taught to us in any other way?

If our wills are created from Perfection then why do we choose evil? Jesus had a free will and He always choose good. Why don't we? Jesus overcame the Devil, why don't we?

Can God make thinking reasoning beings without evil?

Will we always have evil in Heaven so we can always have the opportunity to choose it? Will Heaven be less perfect or like a prison because we can't choose to leave? Will Heaven be like an ant farm or herd?

cp

good questions....evil doesnt exist in and of itself so maybe its totally eradicated in Heaven..I mean it must be.

[claypot]

I do think it is eradicated in Heaven and I think we will 'grow' in Heaven. I think it was George MacDonald who wrote that in Heaven we will continually be awed by new things revealed by and of the Father and when, after an eternity of time, we think we have learned all we can, then God will lift up a fold of His eternal robe and we will have another 'eternity' of enjoying God.

That is why evil intrigues me. I don't think we need it to grow but I do think it teaches us. Of course it teaches us as do all of the experiences of life. I can't help but look at life in its smallest aspect and I see a bit of the big picture of life. The big picture, God wanting something (His creation) and God getting what He wants, I understand, but why horrible things happen to relatively innocent people I have a hard time wrapping my head around.

cp

[darryl]

yes !...I agree...we learn from 'evil' but it doesnt exist of and because of itself...its hard to understand ...1 day it'll be done away with...ty !

[guest6795]

yes !...I agree...we learn from 'evil' but it doesnt exist of and because of itself...its hard to understand ...1 day it'll be done away with...ty !

I agree. 
Evil is a 'created' destroyer (created TO destroy), since, (spiritually); Love (and ONLY love) can create.  (Creation itself therefore being a work of love).

Often people can't accept or simply are not aware of the depth of human sin; considering themselves and most people to be: 'good' or: 'fairly innocent' (or whatever).  Scripturally, this is of course not true, since the entire gospel message is concerned with fallen humanity being 'rescued' from their evil, (which of course is only by grace and not by filthy rags).