Is evil a deal breaker?

[claypot]

No matter how I try I just can't get around the necessity for evil. Help me out here. Is it something we just have to blindly accept?

I've considered literally thousands of reasons for the existence of evil but none seem to be compatible with who and what God is. Torture, murder, rape, cancer, depression and so forth just don't seem necessary to have a loving relationship with God. Nothing about the origin or reality of evil makes sense.

Any fresh ideas on this or again, do we just blindly accept evil and carry on?

Claypot 

[claypot]

thank you for that reply.

I understand almost all you say, the contrast and other things but will we really need contrast to appreciate beauty? Will we have such horrible contrast in Heaven? I do understand that we are learning via experience something probably amazing. Tortures, pain, rapes, depression, fears of all kinds and intensities and so on must be teaching us something.

I do trust God at least as much as He works in me.

As to free will, I don't see that taught at all in the Bible or life itself. I believe we have wills and we make decisions but not free. I think the closest we come to free wills is when the Son makes us free then we will be free indeed!

Man's inhumanity to man just is almost too much for me to comprehend when attempting to understand God, and I need to understand our Father at least a little in order to nurture a real relationship with Him and His Son.

Please keep thoughts coming.

[Ross]

Isaiah 45 is talking about the differences between good and evil. Chapters 40-45 elaborate.
When Jesus came the first time He pointed out that thinking about lusts was just as bad as doing them. God didn't tell Cain to murder Abel, yet that happened.
IMO this is to show that jealousy, stimulating anger, can go to great lengths to get what one wants.
For me, this process has exposed the consequences of self centred thinking.
As a child we see parts of the picture- growing starts to give us understanding. The flesh is partial, the spirit learns bit by bit. Seeing the difference between right and wrong develops character.
Man has taken self to great depth of evil whilst trying to be a powerful person. God did not stimulate that. However this points out that a seemingly small seed can fester unless crushed. Consequential thinking.
Mankind was not placed in a bubble or we would remain as children.
God knows what He is doing.
Love conquers all.

[claypot]

I do seek the Kingdom within and I am led certain directions and after many years I am led back to this forum so I believe there might be some light here for me.

We will not have nor need evil in our ultimate enlightened state. There will be no crying or pain or sadness and we will not need any evil to be happy and to grow so why is it here now? It is a deal breaker for many but it is not, by the grace of God, for me. For me it is probably the deepest mystery. I often wonder if evil is real or is it something within also. Then I stub my toe or enter a foul mood or I visit a friend that is suffering and I wonder.

Where is God when a young relatively innocent girl is being raped? Of course God is right there empowering or giving life to the rapist as well as the victim.

The mystery of iniquity.

cp

[claypot]

Ross, you wrote that God did not stimulate man descent into evil. Where did man get the input to thus descend?

[Ross]

Did God tell Eve to eat from the tree?

[claypot]

Will we always have contrast or need contrast? In other words, will we always need evil?

i do believe we have wills and we make choices that are based on many internal and external things, many of which we have no control of thus no free will, just a will as Scripture says.

I also see the necessity for evil now like a surgeon cutting into a body to root out a bigger evil and so on. That is bad enough but all the other evil just seems so inconsistent with who and what God is.

Do you think Adam was content in the Garden?

Ross, you asked if God told Eve to eat from the tree. No, but I do see that the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life were fully in operation within her before she ate. Where did these come from? 

[claypot]

By the way, the book of Job is very helpful to me in a special way. Thanks for recommending it though. Shall we receive good from the hand of God and not evil? Amos 3.6 says Is there evil in a city and I have not done it...?..God speaking. I really like how God takes full responsibility for evil.

Ano, you wrote..."It sounds like some people want a crown of life without doing anything to attain it."
I only want the crown of life that was attained by Jesus for me. I can't think of anything I can do to attain it apart from the working of the Holy Spirit within me for it is God who works in me to will and to do of His good pleasure. If I am anything I am His workmanship... Thus any 'work' I might do that is holy I give God all the credit and glory.

Just some thoughts but I don't want this thread to get off track from the main subject.

[claypot]

Ano, I thank you for your time and for your words and just so you know, you are not only repeating yourself, but you are repeating thoughts about evil that I have heard many many times before but thank you anyway.

Evil and love are great mysteries for sure.

I believe God is and takes total responsibility for evil. It just is so hard to imagine that as a person is raping another person that God is not only aware of it, but he is giving life to the rapist, as well as to the one being raped.

This just boggles my mind And would be a dealbreaker on me believing in God if I didn?t believe there is something to evil that I just do not understand

[claypot]

It does help me understand why some people do not believe in God, because to believe in something that we don?t understand and don?t agree with would be wrong.

I think people who can justify evil, and even to the point of almost calling evil Good is not a healthy frame of mind to be in. I think many dangerous and destructive cults are formed by such beliefs.

[claypot]

That?s why I titled this thread is evil a dealbreaker. I think it is a dealbreaker for many, and while I am trying to work out my own salvation, with fear and trembling, I find evil to be a great struggle.

Ano, Do you agree that God is giving life to the rapist as he is raping?

[claypot]

Ano, I ask this respectfully, but are you calling evil good because it helps us understand Good?

[claypot]

Ano, Keep the faith and keep believing in the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ brother. We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Thank you for the assistance you gave.

[claypot]

I will be patient, but I was hoping for a little more interaction here but I know this is a very tough subject, and it is very difficult to dive in too deep with God

[Ross]

Romans 9-11 is interesting reading.
11:32 is particularly specific.
Paul differentiates between the spirit and the flesh to the Galatians [5] and the Corinthians [15].
Man was created to the flesh first and then only goes to the spirit through Christ, ergo true equality and purity in Christ.
Colossians points out that you get transferred from the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ.
IMO this differentiates between the evil and lasts of the flesh which were indeed playing part in teaching man.
The rapist will be punished- live by the sword die by the sword. He is not yet in the kingdom of God which is being set up for the new heaven and earth.

[claypot]

So is evil good? If evil is teaching us then is it a good reality? I ask this in all seriousness and do not mean any disrespect.

And Ross I am sincerely curious...Is God giving life to the person raping or doing harm to another? Is God fully aware of and intimately involved in the evil that takes place between humans?

[Ross]

So what is the underlying reason people do evil?
Appears to be for some selfish reason.
The rapist has the spirit of life just like the animals have that spirit. This was created like that to display cause and effect.
When you see someone acting in a sinful manner do you condone their actions?
All sin has consequences.
Paul stated that his actions before his conversion were like dung. He was killing people.
After his renewal his actions changed.
He was like an example for the coming ages.

[Ross]

Eve was tempted by Satan.
Jesus, when tempted in the wilderness , recognised that Satan was the ruler of this age.
Paul pointed out that he had handed 2 men to Satan for their correction [1Tim 1:20].
To the Colossians Paul said that we are transferred from the Kingdom of this age into the kingdom of God.
This all happens to teach us. We learn right from wrong through experience which develops wisdom from the knowledge that we gain from various sources.
Nothing can keep us from the love of God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

[claypot]

Ross, you said "Paul pointed out that he had handed 2 men to Satan for their correction [1Tim 1:20]."

That is a very enlightening statement to me. It tells me not only that Satan serves a purpose but that Satan has power and is used for good. I understand Satan to mean adversary and was created to oppose God by killing, stealing and destroying.

To keep on the subject of this thread I lean towards the conclusion that evil just has to be lived through. My finite mind cannot fathom why some creation suffer to the extreme while others suffer very little. The world asks how can a God who is Love and ultimately in control of all, do and allow evil. It is a valid question and again, a deal breaker for many.

Saying we need evil to contrast good doesn't fly with me. I think God can reveal Good without evil. Shall we receive good from the hand of God and not evil says much to me.

In the Narnia series by CS Lewis Jesus is shown as a lion and at one point someone says to remember that He is not a tame lion. God certainly is not tame. He can be gentle and viscous. He is a peacemaker and warrior. He kills and makes alive. He is a lion and a lamb.

[guest6795]

I just want to say that I learned really valuable things in speaking with you Claypot and I thank God that He used you as a means to teach me.

If I could retract all I said to you, I would simply direct you to the book of Job and leave it at that; because the answer to your basic/fundamental question is there, and self study is encouraged. 

I have learned to say less, because I feel now that: 'less really is more'; especially in group settings/forums and from now on I won't: 'proceed' with a subject unless I'm absolutely certain the other person is really grasping what is being said from now on.

Working together in the body of Christ is not continually asking the same questions, accusing people of starting dangerous cults, twisting their words, (saying that I'm calling good evil) etc - when you know fine well I'm not.
The fact that you continually apologised for saying such things - then did them again; proves to me you intended them in the first place. 
Anyone who can't understand that: SUN + RAIN = RAINBOW, or that to know a thing, one must also know it's opposite - has some fundamental work to do, and so too anyone thinking themselves more moral than God, or that 'life' is being a puppet (the: 'no free will' doctrine is just as bad (or worse) than the eternal torment doctrine), or that crowns of life are handed out to lazy people just because they cried: 'Lord, Lord' etc etc... Everything you say is unscriptural, and to be honest it sounds like you are trying to turn people away from God.
...Due to these things and several others; I have put you on ignore, because I don't feel that communicating any further with you would achieve anything productive for either of us. - I'm only here to talk to believers.
This thread though, has been a perfect example of God using evil for a greater good and I am glad this chat too place).

I think (like many on here (who have learned these lessons before me)); I'll keep my conversations private from now on with those whom I trust, and aid only those who I perceive are genuine believers and truly seeking, and who are appreciative of others who give up their time to try to help - instead of continually speaking ill of them whilst carefully disguising it behind niceties.

"You talk as a foolish woman. - Should we receive only good from God and not evil?" - In all this, Job did not sin.  (Job 2:10).

Just for the record; I removed everything I said only because there were a few pearls there. - I won't be throwing pearls in future until I'm certain of what I'm throwing them too.  Lesson learned.  Praise God.

:URWelcome:

[claypot]

Ano, that means a lot. Thank you. Sometimes I just barge right in and say what is on my mind. Kind of like a bull in a china shop. To me we are all learning as you say. I am so ignorant in so many aspects of life. This body of Christ really takes team work.

Back to the thread. Evil is a key to me. I don't know why but it is. Job is an absolute excellent book of course. I think it is the whole story of God and man (creation) in one book. I really like how Satan is put on display as being a part of Gods staff if you will. Satan comes to the board meeting and offers some suggestions or accusations and God gives him an assignment with strict boundaries. This says to me that evil is contained but given some freedom of movement. This also says to me that God has extreme confidence in His creation (us). God doesn't make junk. Even though we sin to put it simply, we will come out on top because God is love and love never fails.

For anyone of us to overcome the complexity of the horrors of evil to want a relationship with God really takes a work of God in our hearts even BEFORE we accept Him.

cp

[claypot]

After many years (and I mean many) of laboring over the reality of evil I think I got some insight and it's probably due to opening up here on this forum.

I know the book of Job has been mentioned especially by Ano and I have spent many hours (and I mean many) pondering Job and then last night/this morning.........

I'm only going to share briefly because I don't have time right now for more but the gist of it is the book of Job covers God's plan from beginning to end of all creation in my opinion. It especially covers the aspect of evil.

Here is one observation... Satan got orders from God that he (Satan) could do so much to Job (mankind) and no more. What has all of mankind been dealing with since the beginning?

Evil.

I think God has so much faith in His creation (and why wouldn't He since He is the creator) that He had and has the best enemy attack this creation and God knowing love and faith will win. Individually some fall badly to Satan's deceptions but corporately love and faith are still alive.

One of the biggest lights that hit me was that God gave Satan total permission to do evil to Job and then God literally stepped back but always making sure Satan did not overstep the boundaries set.

So here we are right in the midst of Satan's limited free reign.

OK, maybe too much for now and am hoping for some thoughts on this.

cp

[Ross]

Jesus stated "My kingdom is not from here "
John 18:36
The return of Christ changes the management and thereby the lifestyle completely.

He also pointed out to Peter,who had just cut off a man's ear, that if He wanted to He could come in with angels and wipe out those planning to kill Him: but that wasn't part of the plan.
Interesting that many "Christians " went around killing people that they thought were not being converted. Pretty much like the Muslims.
Just talking.
C.U

[claypot]

Not sure what you are getting at Ross. How does that apply to the title of this thread?

Your words did create something in my thoughts and it is this.....

Jesus fits in with Job. Satan took the physical aspects of the life of Jesus yet could not ultimately kill Him. Satan was allowed to go only so far. Satan tried to go over the line but failed. Love won!

This life is brutal and many of us fall to evil but love always arises from the ashes. Satan can steal, kill and destroy much in our lives but He can never kill love. One spark of love will always reignite the whole of creation.

With allowing Satan to try to get creation to deny God as he (Satan) thought he could do, God is showing the power of His love.

cp

[Ross]

The words creating thoughts.....
For me, I find that verbalising/writing what appears to be random actually helps sift a bit of stuff which then clarifies other related data.
Liked your post.

We  were created for a reason.
The Tree of knowledge of good and evil was there for a reason as well.
Interesting that wisdom, by definition, comes from experience: ergo we must have many experiences to gain wisdom. That wisdom then sorts out what to value and how to live.
1 Corinthians 6:12 seems to link with this idea.
IMO the flesh tries to get whatever is seen as advantageous for personal gain. This can be done without considering the effect towards others. That is Evil.
Other things are also evil when used incorrectly even though the thing itself is not evil.
The flesh, our current state of being, is to learn from all that happens in our lives.
And whilst this can be pleasant or painful we learn.
Hebrews 12 points out that no discipline is pleasant, but we learn, which develops our character.
So, evil is there to teach us.
All this was planned before the world began.
Some are shown this before others and are like the first pick of the crop. The rest of the crop will be harvested as well and will have the wheat separated from the chaff.
Pretty amazing really.