translations without 'hell'? accurate translations?

[DavidFord]

When Mark 15:36 was originally written, do you think the guy that "ran and filled a sponge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and" offered it to Jesus to drink, also said:
"Let be/ Let alone/ Stay/ Desist; let us see if Elijah comes to take Him down"? (seen in the Greek and Latin)
Or do you think onlookers-- "they"-- told the guy to stop, and remarked about Elijah? (seen in the Aramaic Peshi tta)
Hat tip:
http://www.everlastingkingdom.info/gb4.html#mar15

Mark 15:36
http://dukhrana.com
https://biblehub.com/mark/15-36.htm
https://aramaicdb.lightofword.org/en/new-parallel-versions-search
(Etheridge) but one ran and filled a sponge with vinegar, and bound it on a rod that he might drink.  And they said, Let alone, we will see if Elia cometh to take him down.
(Murdock) And one ran and filled a sponge with vinegar, and tied it on a reed, to offer him drink.  And they said: Desist; let us see if Elijah will come to take him down.
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) But one ran and filled a sponge with vinegar and tied it on a reed to give him a drink and they said, "Let him alone. Let us see if Elijah comes to take him down."
(APNT) And one ran and filled a sponge [with] vinegar and fastened [it] on a reed to give him to drink.  And they said, "Leave [him]!  Let us see if Elijah will come to take him down."

(KJV) And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.
(YLT) and one having run, and having filled a spunge with vinegar, having put it also on a reed, was giving him to drink, saying, 'Let alone, let us see if Elijah doth come to take him down.'
(Berean Literal Bible) And one having run and having filled a sponge with vinegar, having put it on a reed, gave Him to drink, saying, "Let be; let us see if Elijah comes to take Him down."

(Clementine Vulgate) Currens autem unus, et implens spongiam aceto, circumponensque calamo, potum dabat ei, dicens:  Sinite, videamus si veniat Elias ad deponendum eum.
[google translate:  One ran, filled a sponge with vinegar, reed, and gave him saying:  Let alone; let us see if Elijah will come to take him down.]
(Douay-Rheims) And one running and filling a sponge with vinegar, and putting it upon a reed, gave him to drink, saying:  Stay, let us see if Elias come to take him down.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/mark/15-36.htm
saying, or "they said", as the Syriac version reads it; not he that fetched the sponge, but the others that were with him, and which agrees with Matthew 27....;
let alone; as forbidding him to go near him, and offer him any thing to drink:

Matthew 27:49 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/matthew/27-49.htm
but the rest said, 'Let alone, let us see if Elijah doth come -- about to save him.'

////////////////////////////////////////////////////
When Mt 26:28 and Mk 14:24 were originally written, do you think they had: 
"new covenant"?  or merely "covenant"?

(HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=new+covenant&qs_version=HCSB
Jeremiah 31:31 "Look, the days are coming-- "this is the Lord's declaration-- when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Luke 22:20 In the same way He also took the cup after supper and said, "This cup is the new covenant established by My blood; it is shed for you.

Matthew 26:28 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26%3A28&version=HCSB
For this is My blood that establishes the covenant;[a] it is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins.
a: Other mss read _new covenant_

Matthew 26:28, https://biblehub.com/matthew/26-28.htm
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed in exchange for the many for the release of sins.
(Douay-Rheims Bible) For this is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many unto remission of sins.

Mark 14:24 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark+14%3A24&version=HCSB
He said to them, "This is My blood that establishes the covenant;[a] it is shed for many.
a:  Other mss read _the new covenant_

Mark 14:24, https://biblehub.com/mark/14-24.htm
(Aramaic Bible in Plain English) And he said to them, "This is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed in exchange for the many."
(Douay-Rheims Bible) And he said to them: This is my blood of the new testament, which shall be shed for many.

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Do you agree with Greek mss. that those in danger of Gehenna fire include:  Jesus?  Paul?

Matthew 5:22 (Weymouth NT)
https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-22.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/5-22.htm
But I say to you that every one who becomes angry with his brother shall be answerable to the magistrate;
that whoever says to his brother 'Raca,' [Ῥακά/ Raca:  transliteration of an Aramaic word meaning "spit"] shall be answerable to the Sanhedrin;
and that whoever says, 'You fool!' [Greek:  3474 [e] Mōre/ Μωρέ/ Fool] shall be liable to the Gehenna of Fire.

Matthew 23:17 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/matthew/23-17.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/23-17.htm
Fools [Greek:  3474 [e] μωροὶ/ mōroi] and blind!  for which is greater, the gold, or the sanctuary that is sanctifying the gold?

1 Corinthians 4:9-10 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/ylt/1_corinthians/4.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/4-10.htm
for I think that God did set forth us the apostles last-- as appointed to death, because a spectacle we became to the world, and messengers, and men; we [are] fools [Greek: 3474 [e] μωροὶ/ mōroi] because of Christ, and ye wise in Christ; we [are] ailing, and ye strong; ye glorious, and we dishonoured;

[marie glen]

Bible hub's interlinear word for word says it like this - "..this is the blood of Me of the covenant which is being poured out fir many"

I never noticed that before.  :thumbsup:

...If we hate.. or dislike for no reason, we are in danger of gehenna fire - either as the state of mind James referred to when speaking of the bitter tongue (inspired by gehenna/misery)

Or by the fiery judgment of the age when it comes (earthly) caught unaware, or eek! become a tare gatherered to Armageddon. Old Testament judgments were always earthly! Then we became paganized and they became 'afterlife'.. (imo)
:gsmile:

[DavidFord]

Do you think "turned to his disciples" belongs in Lk 10:22?

Both the Aramaic Peshi tta and the by-A.D. 175 Diatesseron have it.

Lk 10:22 (based on Younan)
And he turned to his students and said to them,
"Everything is delivered to me from Abbi [my Father],
and no man knows who the Son is except Abba [the Father],
and who Abba is except the Son,
and to him to whom the Son desires to reveal (Him)."

Diatesseron, Section XV
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/diatessaron.html
37 And in that hour Jesus rejoiced in the Holy Spirit, and said, I acknowledge thee, my Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto children:  yea, my Father; so was thy will.  And he turned to his disciples, and said unto them, Everything hath been delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, save the Father; and who the Father is, save the Son....

Luke 10:22 (HCSB)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2010%3A22&version=HCSB
All things have[a] been entrusted to Me by My Father.  No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son desires to reveal Him."
a:  Other mss read _And turning to the disciples, He said, "Everything has_

Luke 10:22
https://biblehub.com/texts/luke/10-22.htm
Westcott and Hort / {NA28 variants} 
Πάντα μοι παρεδόθη ὑπὸ τοῦ πατρός μου....

RP Byzantine Majority Text 2005 
Καὶ στραφεὶς πρὸς τοὺς μαθητὰς εἴπεν,
Πάντα μοι παρεδόθη ὑπὸ τοῦ πατρός μου....

Using google translate on the 1st line of the Byz:  And turn to the student said,

"A Textual Commentary on the Greek Gospels Vol. 3 Luke" by Wieland Willker Bremen, online published, 12th edition 2015, page 284, PDF file at
http://www.willker.de/wie/TCG/TC-Luke.pdf
TVU 180
NA28 Luke 10:22 ....
BYZ Luke 10:22 ....
T&T #21
Byz A, C, K, W, X, D, Q, Y, 0115, 124, 174, 230, 346, 983, 1689(=f13), 28, 157,
565, 1071, Maj, it(c, f, ff2, i, l, q, r1), Sy-P, Sy-H

txt P45, P75, 01, B, D, L, M, P, X, 070, f1, f13, 22, 33, 131, 579, 700, 892,
1241, 1342, 1424, 1675, 2737, 2786, al130, Lat(a, aur, b, d, e, vg), Sy-S, Sy-C, Co, arm, geo, goth

[DavidFord]

When Acts 3:21 was originally written, do you think it spoke of:
restoration of all things?
completion of the times of all those things that God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets?

What's a better rendering in Latin:
[Clementine Vulgate]"usque in tempora restitutionis omnium", or
[Irenaeus]"usque ad tempora dispositionis omnium"?

Acts 3:21, http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) whom the heavens must receive until the completion of the times of all those which Aloha hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets, who (have been) from of old.
(Murdock) whom the heavens must retain, until the completion of the times of those things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets of old.
(Lamsa) Whom the heaven must receive until all the things which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets, since the world began should be fulfilled.
(KJV) Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
(Clementine Vulgate) quem oportet quidem cælum suscipere usque in tempora restitutionis omnium, quæ locutus est Deus per os sanctorum suorum a sæculo Prophetarum.
Google translate of the Latin:
whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, the things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/acts/3-21.htm
The times of the restitution of all things - The noun rendered restitution ἀποκαταστάσεως apokatastaseōs, does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. The verb from which it is derived occurs eight times. It means properly "to restore a thing to its former situation," as restoring a "strained" or "dislocated" limb to its former soundness. Hence, it is used to restore, or to heal, in the New Testament: Matthew 12:13, "And it (the hand) was restored whole as the other"; Mark 3:5; Luke 6:10. And hence, it is applied to the preparation or fitness for the coming of the Messiah which was to attend the preaching of John in the character of Elias, Matthew 17:11; Mark 9:12. Thus, in Josephus (Antiq., Mark 2:3, Mark 2:8), the word is used to denote the return of the Jews from the captivity of Babylon, and their restoration to their former state and privileges. The word has also the idea of "consummation, completion, or filling up." Thus, it is used in Philo, Hesychius, Phavorinus, and by the Greek Classics. (See Lightfoot and Kuinoel.) Thus, it is used here by the Syriac: "Until the complement or filling up of the times"; that is, of all the events foretold by the prophets, etc. Thus, the Arabic: "Until the times which shall establish the perfection or completion of all the predictions of the prophets," etc. In this sense the passage means that the heavens must receive the Lord Jesus until all things spoken by the prophets in relation to his work, his reign, the spread of the gospel, the triumph of religion, etc., shall have been fulfilled. It also conveys the idea of the predicted recovery of the world from sin, and the restoration of peace and order; the consummation of the work of the Messiah, now begun, but not yet complete; slow it may be in its advances, but triumphant and certain in its progress and its close.

Acts 3:21
https://biblehub.com/acts/3-21.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/3-21.htm
(Berean Literal Bible) whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times [Greek:  chronōn/ χρόνων/ times] of restoration [Greek:  apokatastaseōs/ἀποκαταστάσεως/ restoration] of all things, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age [Greek:  aiōnos/ αἰῶνος/ age].

605. apokatastasis
https://biblehub.com/greek/605.htm
apokatastasis: restoration
Original Word: ἀποκατάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apokatastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-at-as'-tas-is)
Definition: restoration
Usage: restitution, reestablishment, restoration.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 605 apokatástasis (from 600 /apokathístēmi, "restore") – restitution, referring to the "restoration of the physical earth in the Messianic kingdom (Millennium)" (G. Archer).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apokathistémi
Definition
restoration
NASB Translation
restoration (1).
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 605: ἀποκατάστασις
ἀποκατάστασις, ἀποκαταστάσεως, ἡ (ἀποκαθίστημι, which see), restoration: τῶν πάντων, the restoration not only of the true theocracy but also of that more perfect state of (even physical) things which existed before the fall, Acts 3:21; cf. Meyer at the passage (Often in Polybius, Diodorus, Plutarch, others.)

600. apokathistémi
https://biblehub.com/greek/600.htm
apokathistémi: to restore, give back
Original Word: ἀποκαθίστημι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apokathistémi
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-ath-is'-tay-mee)
Definition: to restore, give back
Usage: I set up again, restore to its original position or condition; hence: I restore, give back.
HELPS Word-studies
600 apokathístēmi (from 570 /apistía, "separated from" and 2525 /kathístēmi, "have a definite standing") – properly, restore back to original standing, i.e. that existed before a fall; re-establish, returning back to the (ultimate) ideal; (figuratively) restore back to full freedom (the liberty of the original standing); to enjoy again, i.e. what was taken away by a destructive or life-dominating power.
600/apokathistēmi ("reestablish") emphasizes separation from the former, negative influence to enjoy what is forward (the restoration).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from apo and kathistémi
Definition
to restore, give back
NASB Translation
restore (2), restored (5), restoring (1).

St. Irenaeus (c. A.D. 130 – c. 202) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus

_The Third Book of St. Irenaeus Against Heresies_ (1906)
https://archive.org/stream/thirdbookstirena00irenuoft/thirdbookstirena00irenuoft_djvu.txt
44 The fulfilment of Prophecy in the [xii. 3-

fecistis nequam. Deus autem quae praedixit ore omnium Prophetarum, pati Christum suum, adimplevit. Poenitentiam igitur agite, et convertimini, uti deleantur peccata vestra, et veniant vobis tempora refrigerii a facie Domini; et mittat praeparatum vobis Jesum Christum, quern oportet quidem coelum suscipere usque ad tempora dispositionis omnium, quae locutus est Deus per sanctos Prophetas suos. Moyses quidem dicit ad patres nostros : [Deut. xviii. 15] Quom am Prophetam excitabit vobis Dominus Deus vester ex fratribus Vestris, quemadmodum me; ipsum audietis in omnibus quaecumque locutus fuerit ad vos. Erit autem : omnis anima, quaccumque non audierit Prophetam ilium, peribit de populo. Et omnes a Samuel et deinceps, quotquot loculi sunt, et annuntiaverunt dies istos. Vos estis filii Prophetarum, et testamenti quod Deus [Gen. xxii. 18] disposuit ad patres nostros, dicens ad Abraham: Et in semine tuo benedicentur omnes tribus terrae. Vobis primum Deus excitans Filium suum misit benedicentem vos, ut convertat se unusquisque a nequitiis suis.

Via playing with Google translate on "quern oportet quidem coelum suscipere usque ad tempora dispositionis omnium":
whom heaven indeed must receive until the times of the arrangement of all that God spoke through his holy prophets
whom heaven indeed must receive until the times of the disposal of all things, which God hath spoken by means of his prophets, the saints,
who must remain in heaven until the time of the disposition of all that God has spoken through his holy prophets

[marie glen]

Wow! Thank you! That was awesome!

I like the Google translate of the Latin best -
whom it behoveth heaven, indeed, to receive till times of a restitution of all things, the things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. (Acts 3:21)

The ‘play’ with the verse/word at the end is perfect too! “The disposal..”

I had been thinking how impossible the idea of any sort of ‘hell’ to exist into God’s return of all things into perfection. Then a very vivid imagination of gehenna, large city ‘town dump’ where even animal bodies were thrown, and the worms didn’t die out.. so the kept the fires burning.. That image with this verse/truth in mind is proven so very false!

It’s hard for us to believe in ..perfection. But He IS Perfection. (Mt.5:48) His attribute is to be always Most High and always Perfect. Logically, root word logos, nothing else is possible. Because, logically (imo:) He is Life itself. The spark, breath, freedom of Life.

So, imperfection is that gehenna condition of corruption, decay, dissolution. And, death. This is the “iron” rod (of life). What is reaped is what is sown. He’s spoken it clearly through the mouths of His prophets, imperfection is the pit(s). Their bottom is endless.

But God (our Father who is Love) is able to bring it all back. :faint:

[DavidFord]

For John 14:2, the UBS Peshi tta has "w-a-l-a," while the Khabouris mss. has "w-a-n l-a."
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=John+14:2&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=John+14:2&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25

_Our Translated Gospels:  Some of the Evidence_ (1936), 172pp.
by Charles Cutler Torrey.  On 108, 113-114
https://archive.org/details/OurTranslatedGospelsCCTorrey/page/n1
Exhibit XIX.  Wrong Vocalization of the Aramaic.  ....
c. Jn. 14:2 ac. to Grk.:  In my Father's house are many
dwellings; IF NOT (.... [snip pointed Aramaic having "w-l-a"] ....),
I would have told you that I go to prepare a place for you.
....
Exhibit XIX, C (Jn. 14:2). What the Grk. gives in
the second half of the verse, whether the words are taken
as a question or as a declaration, is mere nonsense.  In this
case also, corruption of the Grk. text and editorial alteration
have been suspected; but here again, as in the preceding
example and as usual, the reading of the original Aram.
was faultless.  It was the translator who made the trouble.
The solution of the difficulty is ridiculously simple, and is
certain.  That which Jesus says here he repeats, in almost
the same words, in 16:7:  _"I tell you the truth, it is better
for you that I go away."_  The verb here rendered "it is better"
is presumably the same which was employed in the
present passage, for it is regularly used in both meanings.
The _necessity_ is again emphasized at the end of the chapter,
vs. 31; but the time when the eleven most needed to have
this declared to them was at the beginning of this discourse,
after Jesus had so disturbed them by announcing that he
was soon to leave them.

The word _wale_ ["-" over:  "a" and "e"], "it is fitting, expedient,
necessary," is very likely to be mistaken for the omnipresent
_wela_ [curved upward "-" shape over "e," and "-" over "a"],
"and not."  (I have seen this mistake made many times by students
reading unpointed Syriac texts.)  It was for this reason, evidently,
that the word disappears from the beginning of the
verse Targ. Prov. 24:26 in so many mss. and editions; see
Levy's _Worterbuch_.  For the reading "if not, otherwise," the
best examples are 2 Sam. 13:26 and 2 Ki. 5:17. Another
example, generally unrecognized, even by the learned Heb.
tradition, is 1 Sam. 20:12.

[DavidFord]

2 Peter 2:4 For if God didn't spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Do you think some angels were shut up in:  Tartarus?  "the deeps"?  "infernal regions"? "the lowest depths"?  "chains (seirais) of darkness"?  "dungeons (sirois) of darkness"?

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV)  For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [a: Lit. Tartarus] hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

translations from Aramaic, from http://dukhrana.com
(Etheridge) For if Aloha upon the angels who sinned was not lenient, but in chains of darkness shut them in the deeps, and delivered them to be kept to the judgment of pain;
(Murdock) For, if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to the infernal regions in chains of darkness, and delivered them up to be kept unto the judgment of torture,

2 Peter 2 (Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/2_peter/2.htm
4 And if God did not spare the Angels who sinned, but cast them down in chains* of darkness into the lowest depths* and handed them over to be kept for the judgment of torment*, 5 And he did not spare The First World but he preserved Noah, the eighth man, a Preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood over the world of the wicked, 6 And when he burned the cities of Sadom and Amorah and condemned them in an overthrow, when he set an example to the wicked who were to come,

Glenn David Bauscher, _The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English- with Psalms & Proverbs_ 7th edition (2012), 610pp. On 559:
Greek has ... -"Tatarused", "Cast into Tartarus"?  - a participle from "Tartarus" not found anywhere else in Greek literature.  The noun form - "T..." is found in The LXX (Job 40:20) where it refers to "the quadrapeds in _the deep_".  This use of the noun is much more in keeping with the meaning of the Aramaic in this verse ... (tekhtytha) - "the depths".

Textual Issues: 2 Peter 2:4
http://www.jeffriddle.net/2010/11/textual-isues-2-peter-24.html
The major issue in this verse is over whether the text should read "chains (seirais) of darkness" or "dungeons (sirois) of darkness."
External evidence:
"Chains" is supported by p72, P, Psi, and the Majority of manuscripts. This is the reading that appears in the traditional text, and it is also the reading adopted by the modern critical Greek text.
"dungeons" is supported by Sinaiticus. Codices Alexandrinus and Vaticanus also offer support but apparently alter the spelling from sirois to seirois.

2 Peter 2:4
http://web.ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay272pt.htm
TEXT: "committed [them] to chains of gloom to be kept"
EVIDENCE: p72 K P Psi 33 104 614 630 945 1241 1739 1881 2495 Byz Lect some lat vg syr(ph,h) cop(north)
TRANSLATIONS: KJV ASVn NIVn NEBn TEV
RANK: D
NOTES: "committed [them] to caverns of gloom to be kept"
EVIDENCE: S {A B C 81} one lat cop(south)
TRANSLATIONS: ASV RSV NASV NIV NEB TEVn
COMMENTS: There are only two letters' difference between "chains" and "caverns" in Greek, and the evidence in braces misspells "caverns" in such a way that there is only one letter's difference between them.

[DavidFord]

For Matthew 25:46, the Peshi tta has a word that appears to mean 'torment, affliction.'
There's no indication in the Aramaic (nor the Greek, IMO) that the torment/affliction suffered serves a positive purpose.

Peshi tta/o verses that contains lexeme 1:3278
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/sedra_concordance.php?adr=1:3278&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25&source=
Matthew 4:24
Matthew 25:46
Luke 16:28
Revelation 9:5
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 18:10

2851. kolasis
https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm
kolasis: correction
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Definition: correction
Usage: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.
....
κόλασις, κολάσεως, ἡ (κολάζω), correction, punishment, penalty: Matthew 25:46; κόλασιν ἔχει,brings with it or has connected with it the thought of punishment, 1 John 4:18. (Ezekiel 14:3f, etc.; 2 Macc. 4:38; 4 Macc. 8:8; Wis. 11:14 Wis. 16:24, etc.; Plato, Aristotle, Diodorus 1, 77 (9); 4, 44 (3); Aelian v. h. 7, 15; others.) [SYNONYMS: κόλασις, τιμωρία: the noted definition of Aristotle, which distinguishes κόλασις from τιμωρία as that which (is disciplinary and) has reference to him who suffers, while the latter (is penal and) has reference to the satisfaction of him who inflicts, may be found in his rhet. 1, 10, 17; cf. Cope, Introduction to Aristotle, Rhet., p. 232. To much the same effect, Plato, Protag. 324 a. and following, also deff. 416. But, as in other cases, usage (especially the later) does not always recognize the distinction; see e. g. Philo de legat. ad Gaium § 1 at the end; fragment ex Eusebius prepos. evang. 8, 13 (Mang. 2:641); de vita Moys. 1:16 at the end; Plato de sera num. vind. §§ 9, 11, etc. Plutarch (ibid. § 25 under the end) uses κολάζομαι of those undergoing the penalties of the other world (cf. Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 8; Clement of Rome, 2 Cor. 6, 7 [ET]; Justin Martyr, Apology 1, 43; 2, 8; Test xii. Patr., test. Reub. 5; test. Levi 4, etc.; Martyr. Polycarp, 2, 3 [ET]; 11, 2 [ET]; Ignatius ad Rom. 5, 3 [ET]; Martyr Ignatius vat. 5 etc.). See Trench, Synonyms, § vii.; McClellan, New Testament, vol. i., margin references on Matt. as above; Bartlett, Life and Death Eternal. Note G.; C. F. Hudson, Debt and Grace, p. 188ff; Schmidt, chapter 167, 2f.]
....
Matthew 25:46 N-AFS  ....
1 John 4:18 N-AFS .... KJV: fear hath torment. He that feareth

[Andrew]

Hi David

so does your point make it more likely in temporary punishment than forever? I didn't quite understand. Also does that "fear hath torment" verse differ from other uses of torment in the bible?

[GodIsLove]

I don't really get what David is trying to say, but my interpretation of "fear has torment" is that we are told NOT to fear because of the negative effects of fear. Fear doesn't produce good fruit. Perfect love casts out fear. Therefore, fear is not of God, and produces torment with no positive end result. It has nothing to do with hell or duration of a punishment, fear is something we do to OURSELVES.

[DavidFord]

so does your point make it more likely in temporary punishment than forever?

My comment was about the beneficial vs. non-beneficial vs. unspecified nature of the affliction, and not about its length.
For Matthew 25:46, both the original Aramaic (and the Greek translation) speak of a world/age of torment.  Neither the Aramaic nor the Greek say the torment is corrective in nature; I believe the torment is corrective in nature and serves a positive purpose, but one can't derive 'it is corrective' from the Aramaic, nor from the Greek.

does that "fear hath torment" verse differ from other uses of torment in the bible?

Peshi tta/o verses with the lexeme 1:3278 are:  Matthew 4:24, 25:46; Luke 16:28; Revelation 9:5, 14:11, 18:10.  Those verses speak of torment/affliction.
The Greek translation has "kolasin/ κόλασιν," which appears only twice in the Greek NT-- https://biblehub.com/greek/kolasin_2851.htm -- and which speaks of punishment/torment/affliction.

Matthew 25:46 (Young's Literal Translation)
https://biblehub.com/matthew/25-46.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/25-46.htm
And these shall go away to punishment [Greek:  kolasin/ κόλασιν] age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

1 John 4:18 (Weymouth NT)
https://biblehub.com/1_john/4-18.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_john/4-18.htm
Love has in it no element of fear; but perfect love drives away fear, because fear involves pain [Greek:  kolasin/ κόλασιν], and if a man gives way to fear, there is something imperfect in his love.

In looking at these links, I fail to notice a strong reason to think that the word "kolasin/ κόλασιν" _must_ have a meaning that involves producing a beneficial effect:
2851. kolasis
https://biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm
2849. kolazó
https://biblehub.com/greek/2849.htm

Acts 4:21 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/acts/4-21.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/4-21.htm
And they having further threatened them, let them go, finding nothing how they may punish [Greek:  κολάσωνται/ kolasōntai/ they might punish] them, because of the people, because all were glorifying God for that which hath been done,

2 Peter 2:9 (Berean Literal Bible)
https://biblehub.com/2_peter/2-9.htm
https://biblehub.com/text/2_peter/2-9.htm
then the Lord knows to deliver the devout out of temptation and to keep the unrighteous being punished [Greek:  κολαζομένους/ kolazomenous/ being punished] unto the day of judgment,

[DavidFord]

Does 1Cor 9:22 read:  "save everyone"?  "save some"?

1Corinthians 9:22
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=1Corinthians+9:22&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
(Etheridge) I become with the weak as weak, that the weak I may gain.
To all men all become I, that every man I may save.
(Murdock) I was with the weak, as weak, that I might gain the weak:
I was all things to all men, that I might vivify every one.
(KJV) To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak:
I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
(Clementine Vulgate) Factus sum infirmis infirmus, ut infirmos lucrifacerem.
Omnibus omnia factus sum, ut omnes facerem salvos.
google translate:  I became weak, so weak. 
I have become all things to all, that I may by all means save some.

The same Latin has been rendered "that I might save all":
From http://www.latinvulgate.com/lv/verse.aspx?t=1&b=7&c=9
factus sum infirmis infirmus ut infirmos lucri facerem
omnibus omnia factus sum ut omnes facerem salvos
To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak.
I became all things to all men, that I might save all.

Mss. that lack "some" include:  DEFG it vg
-- looking at https://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/9-22.htm and
_The Byzantine Text-Type and New Testament Textual Criticism_ by Harry Sturz (1984), 305pp., 185
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0840749589/

[marie glen]

I don't really get what David is trying to say, but my interpretation of "fear has torment" is that we are told NOT to fear because of the negative effects of fear. Fear doesn't produce good fruit. Perfect love casts out fear. Therefore, fear is not of God, and produces torment with no positive end result. It has nothing to do with hell or duration of a punishment, fear is something we do to OURSELVES.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :iagree:

[marie glen]

I like/LOVE these verses for what I consider giving great clarity.

Jesus said, John 5:28-29 - "...all in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the graves/tombs) some "in the resurrection of life" - (which is at His return, Rev.20) and some in the resurrection of judgment".

Considered WITH - 2 Peter 2:9 - "God knows how to preserve the unrighteous for CORRECTION/kolazo on 'day of judgment."

AND, Matthew 25:45-46, "He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into aionian/agelasting kolazo, but the righteous into aionian life." — It's human (fallible) translators who translated "agelasting correction" into 'everlasting punishment' or sometimes 'everlasting condemnation or contempt' BUT according to what was ORIGINALLY "God breathed"/inspired, it should read "agelasting correction" (I have to think much like some experience now during this age, after all, "a person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven" - John 3:27.

[DavidFord]

When 2Cor 5:17-18 was originally written, do you think "all things" appeared once, or twice?
Did the passage state that 'God made all things new'?
Did the passage have 'behold'?

2Corinthians 5:17-18
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=2Corinthians+5:17&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=2Corinthians+5:18&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-17.htm
https://biblehub.com/2_corinthians/5-18.htm

(KJV)
1 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature:
2 old things are passed away;
3 *behold, all things* are become new.   And *all things* are of God,
4 who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ,
5 and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

(Young's Literal Translation)
1 so that if any one is in Christ -- he is a new creature;
2 the old things did pass away,
3 *lo,* become new have the *all things.*  And the *all things* are of God,
4 who reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ,
5 and did give to us the ministration of the reconciliation,

(Etheridge)
1 Whoever therefore is in the Meshiha is a new creature;
2 the old things have passed,
3 and *every thing* hath become new from Aloha,
4 who hath reconciled us to himself in the Meshiha,
5 and given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

(Murdock)
1 Whoever therefore is in the Messiah, is a new creature:
2 old things have passed away;
3 and *all things* are made new, by God;
4 who hath reconciled us to himself by the Messiah,
5 and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

(Aramaic Bible in Plain English)
1 All that is in The Messiah is therefore The New Creation;
2 the old order has passed away to such.
3 And *everything* has become new from God
4 - he who reconciled us to himself in The Messiah,
5 and he has given us the Ministry of the reconciliation.

[marie glen]

I read these verses just recently!

I like the interlinear..

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/5-17.htm

The Berean Literal Bible is closest -
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.

18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

{19 how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation [Young’s Literal Translation]

  20 Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. We implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. (Berean Literal) “God is love!”
:Peace2:

[DavidFord]

I read these verses just recently!
I like the interlinear..
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_corinthians/5-17.htm

The Berean Literal Bible is closest -
17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, the new has come into being.
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation
{19 how that God was in Christ -- a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation [Young's Literal Translation]
20 Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God is beseeching through us. We implore on behalf of Christ: Be reconciled to God. (Berean Literal) "God is love!"

And Father God just a few minutes ago brought my attention to a remark re: 2Cor 5:17, a remark I just posted in another thread.

[DavidFord]

When John 12:32 was originally written, do you think it said:
"will draw all to myself"?
"will draw all men to myself"?

John 12:32, interlinear
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/12-32.htm
And I if I am lifted up from the earth pantas/πάντας/all helkysō/ἑλκύσω/will-draw to Myself

John 12:32
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=John+12:32&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
(Etheridge) And I, when I have been lifted up from the earth, will draw all men [Aramaic:  k-l a-n-sh:  all + man, mankind]
unto me.
(Murdock) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to me.

John 12:32 (NKJV), NKJV italics indicating a word supplied by the translator
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+12:31-33&version=NKJV
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all _peoples_ to Myself."

[DavidFord]

Should Rev 14:6 be rendered with:
"everlasting/eternal message/news"?
"age-during message/news"?
"universal message/news"?

Revelation 14:6 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/14-6.htm
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-6.htm
And I saw another messenger flying in mid-heaven, having good news age-during to proclaim to those dwelling upon the earth, and to every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people,
166/ aiōnion/ αἰώνιον

Charles C. Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (1958)
https://www.preteristarchive.com/1958_torrey_the-apocalypse-of-john/
14:6. The adjective aiṍnion [αἰώνιον], while almost inevitable as the rendering of Aramaic ᴄᴐlam, really mistranslates here, for the ᴄᴐlam to which it refers is not ho aiṍn but hē oikouménē. The Semitic noun with the latter meaning is common in late Hebrew, Aramaic, and Syriac. A frequently occurring Talmudic phrase is ʾummōt hᴐᴄōlᴐm, "the peoples of the world," meaning especially the Gentiles, and it is this usage, precisely, that is intended in the present passage. The euangélion aiṍnion proclaimed here is not an "eternal message," as it is ordinarily understood-- the idea of duration of time is not present at all; it is a "universal message," as the verse goes on to declare, sent to the peoples of the earth, all nations, tribes, and tongues. Aramaic bᵉsōr, regularly rendered by euangélion, means simply "tidings," whether good or bad.

Greg Glaser translations of Crawford Revelation 14:6
PDF:  http://dukhrana.com/crawford/files/Revelation-Numerical-Data.pdf
linked to from
http://dukhrana.com/crawford/
gospel/hope Alternate translations: "good tidings", "truth", "reason".
that to a world/age
to be preaching (plural) Alternate translation: "to evangelize them"

Revelation 14:6
http://dukhrana.com/pesh itta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=Revelation+14:6&source=ubs&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25
(Etheridge) And I saw another angel flying through heaven, who with blood [So SCHAFF, DE DlEU, and GUTBIR'S texts: but the Polyglots have not "with blood," a reading which admits of the same explanation as that given page 469.] had the
everlasting [Aramaic:  d'l'ai-l-m: of/that to the world/age]
gospel [Aramaic:  s-b-r-th-a:  message/news]
to preach to them who dwell on the earth, and unto every nation and tribe, and tongue and people;
(Murdock) And I saw another angel flying in heaven: and with blood, he had the everlasting gospel, to proclaim to dwellers on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
(Lamsa) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel, to preach to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
(KJV) And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

a Dutch translation at http://dukhrana.com
Revelation 14:6 - (Daarop) zag ik [een andere engel] in het midden van de hemel vliegen en hij had het eeuwige Goede Nieuws bij zich om (dat) te verkondigen aan hen die op aarde wonen, aan ieder volk, (iedere) stam, taal en natie,
       een andere engel - in de meeste Griekse manuscripten (‹MHT›) ontbreekt 'andere' (‹ἄλλον - allon- G243›), maar in de Griekse NA28, TR en in de Aramese Peshi tta vinden wij dit woordje wel. Het probleem daarmee is dat er in het nabije tekstverband geen eerdere engel te vinden is, zodat de engel hier als 'andere engel' aangeduid kan worden naast een eerdere. De laatste engel die voor dit vers werd genoemd, is te vinden in Op. 11:15. Het is de engel die de zevende bazuin blies. Als men echter ziet dat Op. 12 en 13 een soort intermezzo vormen waarin aan Johannes een aantal uiterst belangrijke gezichten worden getoond, voordat de lijn van de gebeurtenissen vanaf het einde van Op. 11 weer wordt opgepakt, zal men met deze afstand tussen de engel van de 7e bazuin en deze andere engel minder moeite hebben. Sommigen menen dat het woordje 'andere' in sommige manuscripten werd weggelaten omdat men hier juist wel moeite mee had. Weer anderen suggereren dat het woordje 'andere' hier is toegevoegd uit een behoefte aan harmonisatie, immers alle 5 nog volgende engelen in deze passage (‹Op. 14:8, 9, 15, 17, 18) worden aangeduid als 'andere engelen'.
–We merken nog op dat het zestal engelen dat hier besproken wordt, wordt aangevuld met de Heer zelf in het midden van de zes (‹vs. 14, 16›), zodat er toch weer een voor Openbaring kenmerkend zevental ontstaat, deze keer op een wel heel bijzondere wijze.
       het eeuwige Goede Nieuws - sommige vertalingen hebben 'een eeuwig Evangelie' ofwel 'een eeuwig Goed Nieuws', wat vanuit het Grieks gezien formeel juist is, maar de vraag is of de afwezigheid van het lidwoord in het Grieks altijd onbepaaldheid van het naamwoord impliceert. In ieder geval is de uitdrukking in de Aramese Peshi tta op te vatten als bepaald. Paulus' woorden in Gal. 1:6-9 mogen o.i. wel opgevat worden ter ondersteuning van de gedachte dat het hier om het eeuwige Evangelie gaat, en niet om 'een' Evangelie. Overigens wordt direct in de volgende verzen duidelijk wat die Evangelieverkondiging concreet inhoudt nl. God vrezen en de Schepper aanbidden en geen ander.
       bij zich - deze tekst is onderdeel van de Aramese Peshi tta, maar niet van de Griekse NA28, MHT en TR.

Google translate:
Revelation 14: 6 - (Thereupon) I saw [another angel] flying in the midst of heaven and he had the eternal Good News with him to proclaim (that) to those who dwell on earth, to every people, (every) tribe, language and nation,
       another angel - in most Greek manuscripts (‹MHT›)" other "(‹ ἄλλον - allon-G243 ›) is missing, but in the Greek NA28, TR and in the Aramaic Peshi tta we find this word. The problem with this is that there is no previous angel in the near text, so that the angel can be referred to here as "another angel" next to a previous one. The last angel mentioned for this verse is found in Op. 11:15. It is the angel who blew the seventh trumpet. However, if one sees that Op. 12 and 13 form a kind of intermezzo in which Johannes is shown a number of extremely important faces, before the line of events from the end of Op. 11 will be picked up again, this distance between the angel of the 7th trumpet and this other angel will be less difficult. Some believe that the word "other" was omitted in some manuscripts because it was difficult to do so. Still others suggest that the word 'other' has been added here out of a need for harmonization, for all 5 subsequent angels in this passage (‹Rev. 14: 8, 9, 15, 17, 18) are referred to as 'other angels' . –Note that the six angels discussed here are supplemented by the Lord Himself in the middle of the six (‹vs. 14, 16›), so that yet again a seven typical of Revelation arises, this time on a very special way.
       Eternal Good News - some translations have "an Eternal Gospel" or "an Eternal Good News," which is formally correct from the Greek perspective, but the question is whether the absence of the article in Greek always implies indeterminacy of the noun. In any case, the expression in the Aramaic Peshi tta can be understood as determined. Paul's words in Gal. 1: 6-9 may be understood to support the idea that this is the eternal Gospel, and not "a" Gospel. Incidentally, it will immediately become clear in the following verses what this Gospel proclamation actually means, namely to fear God and worship the Creator and no other.
       with him - this text is part of the Aramaic Peshi tta, but not of the Greek NA28, MHT and TR.

====================================.
Did Rev 15:2 originally read:
"harps of God"?
"harps of aloe"?

Revelation 15:2 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/revelation/15-2.htm
and I saw as a sea of glass mingled with fire,
and those who do gain the victory over the beast,
and his image,
and his mark,
and the number of his name,
standing by the sea of the glass,
having harps of God,

Charles C. Torrey, _The Apocalypse of John: Introduction, Excerpts, and a New Translation_ (1958)
https://www.preteristarchive.com/1958_torrey_the-apocalypse-of-john/
15:2 (last clause). : "Harps of God"-- a very strange expression, not justified by the context, nor by any parallel. The seer is shown a company standing by the glassy sea, prepared to sing the Song of Moses and the Lamb and "holding harps of God"-- where we should expect some word really descriptive of the instruments. The phrase may perhaps not be pronounced "impossible," but it certainly is to the last degree improbable. In any Hebrew or Aramaic text written at this time, care was taken to avoid the unnecessary use of names or designations of God; in this case the use of the word was not only unnecessary but also unnatural.

This phrase as it stands seems to designate a class, or collection, of harps. Charles, 2, 343, refers to 1 Chron. 16:42, kᵉlē šīr hɔʾɛlohīm and 2 Chron. 7:6 kᵉlē šīr YHWH; but (1) the introduction of the word šīr makes the case quite different; and (2) it is worth noticing that Targ. Chron. does not permit even this form of words, but in both passages inserts qɔdɔm ("in the presence of") before the word designating God.

It can hardly be doubted that the present text is wrong. The Greek gives no foothold for emendation, but as soon as the Aramaic it renders is restored, the cause of the trouble is made clear. What the author of the Apocalypse wrote was not kinnɔrīn dī ʾɛlɔhɔʾ, "harps of God," but kinnɔrīn dī ʾᵃlɔhɔʾ, "harps of aloes wood." This precious wood, famed for its fragrance (Psa. 45:9[8 English]; Prov. 7:17; Song of Songs 4:14), is precisely the material that would be expected in this place. The word was either carelessly miswritten or else too hastily translated. Another characteristic misreading.

Song of Solomon 4:14 (YLT)
https://biblehub.com/songs/4-14.htm
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/songs/4-14.htm
Cypresses with nard -- nard and saffron, Cane and cinnamon, With all trees of frankincense, Myrrh and aloes, with all chief spices.
174/ wa·'ă·hā·lō·wṯ/וַאֲהָל֔וֹת / and aloes

[DavidFord]

Do you think 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 belongs in the Bible?  It's in the LXX and the Peshi tta Tanakh.

2 Maccabees 12:38-46 (NABRE)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Maccabees+12%3A38-46&version=NABRE
38 Judas rallied his army and went to the city of Adullam. As the seventh day was approaching, they purified themselves according to custom and kept the sabbath there. 39 On the following day, since the task had now become urgent, Judas and his companions went to gather up the bodies of the fallen and bury them with their kindred in their ancestral tombs. 40 But under the tunic of each of the dead they found amulets sacred to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbids the Jews to wear. So it was clear to all that this was why these men had fallen. 41 They all therefore praised the ways of the Lord, the just judge who brings to light the things that are hidden. 42 [a]Turning to supplication, they prayed that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out. The noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves free from sin, for they had seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. 43 He then took up a collection among all his soldiers, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, which he sent to Jerusalem to provide for an expiatory sacrifice. In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection in mind; 44 for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. 46 Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be absolved from their sin.

a:  12:42-45 This is the earliest statement of the doctrine that prayers (v. 42) and sacrifices (v. 43) for the dead are efficacious. Judas probably intended his purification offering to ward off punishment from the living. The author, however, uses the story to demonstrate belief in the resurrection of the just (7:9, 14, 23, 36), and in the possibility of expiation for the sins of otherwise good people who have died. ....

Maccabees in the New Testament
http://matthewbryan.net/maccabees.html
My last article presented several of Jesus' teachings from the Wisdom of Sirach and noted the fact that Matthew's gospel paid particular attention to those teachings. While Wisdom of Sirach had only a limited impact on the New Testament, the history of the Maccabees affected first century Judaism so strongly that our Protestant avoidance of 1st and 2nd Maccabees has enabled serious errors in some of our most central doctrines. Like Sirach, 1st and 2nd Maccabees have been mislabeled as "apocrypha," a title originally reserved for heretical Gnostic writings;1 but no apocryphal teachings arise in 1st or 2nd Maccabees. Even if one does not accept these books as Scripture, Martin Luther called them "profitable and good to read."2 My hope is that this article will encourage many Christians to read these chronicles of resistance and victory, which strongly shaped Jewish culture at the time of our Lord's incarnation and the Writings which followed from His apostles.
....
The "glory" which Mattathias promised his sons was God's "salvation" from their enemies, which is the primary theme of salvation in the New Testament, not salvation from hell or from God's wrath, as is commonly thought in Protestantism. Jesus spoke about hell (directly or indirectly) in just 60 verses, 3% of our red-letter verses. Yet in the four Gospels alone, demons (including Satan) are specifically mentioned or quoted as speaking in 120 verses. This number does not include indirect references nor vague titles like "the enemy" or even the "evil one," as in the Sower parables. On page after page, Jesus directly battles unclean spirits. When He frees people from demons, He speaks of Satan's kingdom and proclaims His own kingdom of heaven or "kingdom of God." He refers to Satan's kingdom as "this world" and "the world," setting Himself in opposition to it. Throughout the Gospels we hear of the battle between Light and darkness, as though the Maccabean battles had raged on without an end.
....
We may recognize the implications of wrath and hell in the Great Commission or in Paul's commission, but the explicit and predominant theme throughout the New Testament is that of a war between two kingdoms and the escape of prisoners who "turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God." We do not read 1st and 2nd Maccabees, therefore we overlook that theme and then offer the subtexts (wrath and hell) as the New Testament's primary theme. The Maccabees fought flesh and blood; our King and His apostles fought equally real enemies for the salvation of prisoners: "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love." (Col 1:13 NKJV)
"Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle with flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places." (Eph 6:11-12 NKJV)
....
Maccabean salvation from enemies happened by God's grace through faith after works of the law by circumcised, zealous, Separatists. The Maccabean history markedly colors the New Testament, and our Protestant theology suffers from its omission from our reading. Without reading the Maccabean history, we misunderstand the faith of the Pharisees, the contextual meaning of "salvation" in the New Testament, faith basis of "zeal for the law" and of "works," and the role of Hellenization within New Testament events. Overlooking 1st and 2nd Maccabees cause gross misinterpretations of Jesus and His apostles.

[DavidFord]

How should John 3:16 be rendered?

v. 2.5, John "3:36 One who believes in the Son has the life of the world to come,
but one who disobeys the Son does not perceive life,
but the overflowing indignation of God remains upon him."   

Michael Wood, _The Hidden Bible_ (2010), 155pp., 42-43
https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Bible-Michael-Wood/dp/1936565005/
A more true-to-the-Greek translation of John 3:16 is:
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that
whoever trusts him enough to do what he says will not perish....
Unfortunately, the full meaning of the Koine Greek word is hidden from modern readers .... 'to believe in the Son' means to do what he says-- 'to love one another' just like he told us to....

////////////////////////
There's Joshua the son of Nun.  But he wasn't called the Meshika/ Mashiach.  There's only one Yeshua the Meshikha.
Jesus was named 'Yeshua' by his parents. 
The word 'Iesous' is a Greek representation for 'Yeshua.' 
The word 'Christos' is a Greek representation for the original Aramaic's 'Meshikah.' 
The word 'Jesus' is an English representation for the Greek 'Iesous.'
The word 'Christ' is an English representation for the Greek 'Christos.'

[DavidFord]

What do you think of this rendering?: 
"These shall go into the pain of the _Olam_ (the world to come),
and these to the life of the _Olam_ (the world to come)."
How would you respond to this analysis?:

_History of Opinions on the Scriptural Doctrine of Retribution_ by Edward Beecher Appleton (1878), 334pp., 152-157
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kx9LZX1iP6wC
https://www.amazon.com/History-Opinions-Scriptural-Doctrine-Retribution-ebook/dp/B00LZX29G4/
CHAPTER XVIII.  THE PESH ITO.

Having particularly considered the testimony of Aristotle, and of classic Greek, and of the Septuagint, I shall proceed to other evidence of the meaning of the word _aionios_, as used by Christ in the judgment. This is found in the Pesh ito, a Syriac version of the Greek Testament, the earliest version after Christ.  [Nope.  The Syriac was the original, and got translated into Greek. - df]

PROF. TAYLER LEWIS.
We are indebted, for what we shall say on this version, to that eminent scholar Prof. Tayler Lewis. To see the full force of it, it is necessary to state first his own views of the word _aionios_. They are found in a profound development of the use of what he calls the _Olamic_ or _Aeonian_ words of the Scripture. He complains, and that justly, that their Scriptural use is hidden by our translation. His views will be found on pp. 44-51 of Lange's "Commentary on Ecclesiastes," and also pp. 135-143 of the "Commentary on Genesis."

VIEWS OF PROF. LEWIS.
He very correctly assumes that _aion_ has the sense of an age, that is, a period of time. He regards the boundless duration of God as filled with successive ages or dispensations. These ages were numberless before our world was created; during this world there are ages, and there will be numberless ages after its close.

SCRIPTURAL NAMES.
The usual Scriptural names of these ages are Olam in Hebrew, and Aion in Greek. These words are, in themselves, wholly indefinite, and the ages may vary greatly in length. They are not measured by ordinary astronomical computations of time, as days, months, years. (See Lange's "Genesis," p. 141, note.)

USE OF THE AGES.
Now, in this state of things, two modes are conceivable of impressing the mind with the magnitude of the duration of God and his kingdom: to use simple negations of beginning or end, leaving eternity, past and future, an undivided blank, or, to fill the mind with the conception of innumerable ages, past or future, and to reduplicate the expression "by ages of ages."

He insists upon it that this latter mode of speaking is the Scriptural mode, and that it affects the mind more with approximate conceptions of eternity than what he calls conceptionless, negative words.

NEITHER DENOTES ETERNITY.
But he insists that this use of _olam_ and _aion_, in the plural to denote ages, and ages of ages, implies of necessity that neither of the words, of itself, denotes eternity. He admits that these words are used to give an idea of eternity, as applied to God and his kingdom, while yet the ages that are reduplicated are themselves finite, but by their magnitude and number raise an impressive approximate conception of eternity. (See Lange's "Ecclesiastes," pp. 45, 50.)

RESULT.
In view of these facts we need not be surprised at finding in Prof. Tayler Lewis the following clear development of the logical result of these views. He says: "The preacher, in contending with the Universalist and the Restorationist, would commit an error, and it may be suffer a failure in his argument, should he lay the whole stress of it on the etymological or historical significance of the words aion, aionios, and attempt to prove that of themselves they necessarily carry the meaning of endless duration" (Lange's "Ecclesiastes," p. 48). What, then, does _aionios_ here mean? He says that it means _pertaining to the age or world to come_, taking _world_ in the time-sense, and thus translates the passage. "These shall go away into the punishment [the restraint, imprisonment] of the world to come, and these into the life of the world to come," and he adds, emphatically, _"that is all that we can etymologically or exegetically make of the word in this passage."_

THE PESH ITO.
It is in support of this translation that he appeals to the venerable Syriac version, the Pesh ito.

The Pesh ito is, as we have said, the earliest version of the New Testament. Its value and authority it is not easy to over-estimate. Westcott says: "Gregory Bar Hebraeus, one of the most learned and accurate of Syrian writers, relates that the New Testament Pesh ito was "made in the time of Thaddeus (the apostle), and Abgarus, King of Edessa, when, according to the universal opinion of ancient writers, the apostle went to proclaim Christianity in Mesopotamia" (Canon, p. 259). He adds that Gregory assumes the apostolic origin of the New Testament Pesh ito as certain, and that it preceded all the sects of the Syrian Church, and was received and appealed to by all. How, then, was _aionios_ translated by this version? In support of his own translation Prof. Tayler Lewis says, "So is it ever (translated) in the old Syriac version, where the one rendering is still more unmistakably clear." "These shall go into the pain of the _Olam_ (the world to come), and these to the life of the _Olam_ (the world to come)." He refers to many other passages, as Matt. xix. 16; Mark x. 17; Luke xviii. 18; John iii. 15; Acts xiii. 46; 1 Tim. vi. 12, in which _aionios_ is rendered _belonging to the Olam_, the world to come. In all these cases we find in our version, _eternal life_, the same words that are used in the sentence of the judge, but in all they are rendered in the Pesh ito, the life of the world to come; and such, he tells us, is the rendering in all similar cases. Certainly, evidence more direct and conclusive it is hard to imagine.

AIM OF PROF. LEWIS.
We are not to suppose that so eminent an orthodox divine says these things in support of Universalism, a system which he decidedly and earnestly rejects. He says them in behalf of what he conceives to be the truth in philology, and rests for proof of eternal punishment on the finality of the whole aspect of the scene, and the absence of any reason to look for a reversal of the sentence. But he is unwilling to support what he regards as a true doctrine with false arguments. Besides the idea of finality in the judgment, he would doubtless derive arguments from other sources.

CHANGE OF POSITION.
Nevertheless, if we admit the validity of the evidence adduced by him, and certainly nothing can have higher claims to confidence than this ancient apostolic version, and the argument that sustains him seems to be irrefragable, yet it effects a fundamental change in the position of the whole question, for it is now fair to raise the question, What is the life, and what is the punishment, of the world to come? Is that punishment ultimate annihilation after deserved suffering? Still it would be the punishment of the world to come. Will it be a long-continued but remedial punishment? Still it will be the punishment of the world to come. This translation leaves the question between the three theories undecided. Eternal torment is now only one supposition out of three, and we are not by the sentence of Christ shut up to the belief of it. It may be proved from other sources. But these words of Christ are no longer the main bulwark in defense of that doctrine. So, also, the argument that the punishment is characterized by the same word as the life, loses its power to prove eternal punishment. The allegation is true. But what does it prove? Solely that, as the life is of the world to come, so is the punishment.

FIDELITY TO TRUTH.
The fact that these results conflict with the generally accepted statements of the defenders of eternal punishment should not, however, tend to produce a reaction against that eminent orthodox scholar and divine by whom they are sustained, nor against the learned, scholarly, and Christian work in which they are published.

We trust that the time will come when, in all departments of history and philology, men will write, not for denomination or party, but for the truth; when the inquiry will not be, what will this or that sect say of this, but what will God say of it, to whom all suppression of the truth and all pious fraud are an abomination.

PROPER COURSE.
The proper course to pursue with reference to the statements of Prof. Lewis is to compare them with other usages of language in the early Christian ages, and see if his results accord with general usage to such an extent as to give them an aspect of general verisimilitude. For there is something striking and peculiar in such an idea as "the life of the world to come." If this was a common mode of thought, we should be likely to meet it elsewhere. Is Prof. Tayler Lewis's view sustained by any other ancient and authoritative usage? There are many ancient creeds. Do we find any traces of it in them? Are there any facts in the writings of the ancient fathers which imply that they understood Christ to be speaking of the life and the punishment _of the world to come_, in the sentence of the judgment-day? To these questions we propose to give careful attention, for they reach the heart of the whole momentous inquiry.

CHAPTER XIX.

[DavidFord]

The Aramaic for 3:11 has a better structure:

Colossians 3 (Peshi tta Holy Bible)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/colossians/3.htm
10 And put on the new, who is made new by knowledge in the image of his Creator,
11 Where there is neither Jew nor Aramaean,
neither circumcision nor uncircumcision,
neither Greeks nor Barbarians,
neither Servant nor Freeman,
but The Messiah is all and in every person.

Jesus is in everybody.  'Whatever you did to the least of these, you did to Me.'

"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you"
I suspect that the original Aramaic there is better rendered as, "Ye are my friends.  It is necessary ye do whatsoever I command you."

If somebody told you that you are their friend as long as you meet certain conditions, would you consider that individual an actual friend?

"you are taking a God to man friendship and comparing it to a man to man; this is your fallacy"
Jesus is a man.  Besides being God.
How is friendship different between "a God to man friendship" and "a man to man" friendship?

1 John 4:12 (NIV)
No one has ever seen God;
but if we love one another,
God lives in us
and his love is made complete in us.

1 John 4 (Peshi tta Holy Bible)
https://biblehub.com/aramaic-plain-english/1_john/4.htm
19 Therefore we shall love God
because he first loved us.
20 But if a man will say, "I love God",
and he hates his brother,
he is lying;
for he who does not love his brother who is visible,
how is it possible for him to love God who is invisible?
21 And we have received this commandment from him:
"Everyone who loves God
shall love his brother also."

[DavidFord]

For John 3:16, 'give (it) to his son' is reflected in the Aramaic.
http://dukhrana.com/peshi tta/analyze_verse.php?lang=en&verse=John+3:16&source=khabouris&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=125%25

A Course in Miracles -- Chapter 2 -- VII. Cause and Effect
https://acourseinmiraclesnow.com/course-miracles-chapter-2-vii-cause-effect/
T-2.VII.5. Nothing and everything cannot coexist. 2 To believe in one is to deny the other. 3 Fear is really nothing and love is everything. 4 Whenever light enters darkness, the darkness is abolished. 5 What you believe is true for you.

6 In this sense the separation has occurred, and to deny it is merely to use denial inappropriately. 7 However, to concentrate on error is only a further error. 8 The initial corrective procedure is to recognize temporarily that there is a problem, but only as an indication that immediate correction is needed. 9 This establishes a state of mind in which the Atonement can be accepted without delay. 10 It should be emphasized, however, that ultimately no compromise is possible between everything and nothing.

11 Time is essentially a device by which all compromise in this respect can be given up. 12 It only seems to be abolished by degrees, because time itself involves intervals that do not exist. 13 Miscreation made this necessary as a corrective device. 14 The statement "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life" needs only one slight correction to be meaningful in this context; "He gave it _to_ His only begotten Son."

[DavidFord]

In a season 2 episode of "The Chosen," the phrase "Come and see" is used several times. That's a semiticism that means 'If you come, you will see.' Details are in
http://pecrapta.org,
Forum,
Aramaic Primacy Forum,
currently-last post in thread: _The Pecrapta Holy Bible_ translated by David Bauscher