Fall of the house not hell

[marie glen]

(Condensed) from Matthew 7 -Many will say to Me — IN THAT DAY — 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, those working lawlessness.' ...THEREFOR... everyone hearing these words of Mine and not acting on them, he will be likened to a foolish man who built his house upon the sand. AND the rain came down, and the torrents came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house; and IT fell—and great was ITS collapse!"
:Peace2:

p.s. also on that day.. the tares gathered to fire - considering all other verses. this is not (of course) the 'hell' myth of the nations.. so what fire are the tares gathered to?

3 categories...

Psalm 2:1 - Why do "the nations rage"..? (and gnash their teeth?)


...the tares gathered to fire, then the wheat into His barn..

On that day, the sheep on His right entering the kingdom and the goats, on the left, not (yet!! But later! :banana: )

[DavidFord]

Adam made a big mess of things for everybody. 
Is the '2nd Adam,' the God-incarnate Jesus Christ, able to fix things for:
only a fraction of Adam's descendants?
all of Adam's descendants?

[Lazarus Short]

ALL

As He asked Job, is anything too difficult for Me?

[FineLinen]

Adam made a big mess of things for everybody. 
Is the '2nd Adam,' the God-incarnate Jesus Christ, able to fix things for:
only a fraction of Adam's descendants?
all of Adam's descendants?

"For by Him everybody and everything were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—everybody and everything have been created through Him and for Him. He is before everybody and everything, and in Him everybody and everything is held together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everybody and everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile everybody and everything to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, everybody and everything on earth or in heaven."

Fear not David! The "big mess" is completely undone exceedingly abundantly beyond ALL in the Master of Reconciliation.

[guest6667]

"I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.

He is the kingdom, the one body and the one spirit.

Everything is fulfilled in him, Jesus wept for our suffering in our unbelief. If they are weeping they are being healed, it accompany's death which precedes life. Happy those weeping now -- because ye shall laugh.

Cry now or later. But everyone will be made from God, incorruptible at the appearing of the Messiah.

[Age-enduring]

Adam made a big mess of things for everybody. 
Is the '2nd Adam,' the God-incarnate Jesus Christ, able to fix things for:
only a fraction of Adam's descendants?
all of Adam's descendants?

Accepting non dualism; i.e. 'As in Adam, ...also in Christ.' is to end the conflict with respect to identity and judgement of self and others.

Being in Adam and in Christ are a present reality, whilst both in the body (as flesh) and having been born from above.

[DavidFord]

As He asked Job, is anything too difficult for Me?

Sanhedrin 91a
https://www.sefaria.org/Sanhedrin.91a.2
The school of Rabbi Yishmael taught that resurrection of the dead _a fortiori_ from glass vessels:
If concerning glass vessels, which are fashioned by the breath of those of flesh and blood, who blow and form the vessels, and yet if they break they can be repaired, as they can be melted and subsequently blown again, then with regard to those of flesh and blood, whose souls are a product of the breath of the Holy One, Blessed be He, all the more so can God restore them to life.

[guest6667]

Yeah, there aren't any limits on God that would prevent him from saving anyone. We are saved by Grace, which just means, we are saved by God's favour and God does not show favouritism.

I think it is interesting, if that parable about the sheep and goats means that some people, after the death of their body, will be sent into darkness because we are in darkness today. So it is a bit like them being sent back into the world. I doubt reincarnation is true, I haven't given it much thought, but if this was Sheol then I think it complicates the verses about him preaching to the spirits in prison while he was dead. So how are they being sent into darkness after they have left their bodies? Doesn't that imply that we are kept from seeing God, not by physical flesh, but by spiritual flesh?

edit- what the parable obviously does mean is that in the kingdom of God, all will love their neighbour. But typically a prophetic element to the parable is emphasised, don't think I have ever heard it explained for the purpose of giving spiritual guidance.   

[marie glen]

Adam made a big mess of things for everybody. 
Is the '2nd Adam,' the God-incarnate Jesus Christ, able to fix things for:
only a fraction of Adam's descendants?
all of Adam's descendants?

Amen!! ..oh.. that's answer b

And actually infinitely wise to include a visible option to disobey / of imperfection, in the original garden of life! After all, just HOW is God to have genuinely able to think and reason beings (family(!) AND keep paradise/perfection intact? ;) :gsmile:

[marie glen]

Yeah, there aren't any limits on God that would prevent him from saving anyone. We are saved by Grace, which just means, we are saved by God's favour and God does not show favouritism.

I think it is interesting, if that parable about the sheep and goats means that some people, after the death of their body, will be sent into darkness because we are in darkness today. So it is a bit like them being sent back into the world. I doubt reincarnation is true, I haven't given it much thought, but if this was Sheol then I think it complicates the verses about him preaching to the spirits in prison while he was dead. So how are they being sent into darkness after they have left their bodies? Doesn't that imply that we are kept from seeing God, not by physical flesh, but by spiritual flesh?

edit- what the parable obviously does mean is that in the kingdom of God, all will love their neighbour. But typically a prophetic element to the parable is emphasised, don't think I have ever heard it explained for the purpose of giving spiritual guidance.   

I really LOVE these verses for clarifying so many things!
     Jesus said, John 5:28-29 - "...all in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the graves/tombs) some "in the resurrection of life" - (which is at His return, Rev.20) and some in the resurrection of judgment" (which is "after the thousand years"/millennium, Rev.20)
     Considered WITH - 2 Peter 2:9 - "God knows how to preserve the unrighteous for CORRECTION/kolazo on 'day of judgment."
    AND, Matthew 25:45-46, "He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into aionian/agelasting kolazo, but the righteous into aionian life." — It's human (fallible) translators who translated "agelasting correction" into 'everlasting punishment' or sometimes 'everlasting condemnation or contempt' BUT according to what was ORIGINALLY "God breathed"/inspired, it should read "agelasting correction" ..I have to think much like some experience now during this age, after all, "a person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven" - John 3:27.

He is SO wise.. And very organized..

The verse about going via the Spirit to preach to those locked into destruction while the ark was being built (1 Peter) says, I believe, HOW He preached to them in 2 Peter - by saying "Noah was a preacher of righteousness.. His Word - Truth! But translators are fallible..

Considering so many verses.. I cannot believe all go to some sort of holding cell for millennia.. But the original. Sheol. Where they know nothing (Eccles.9:5). And hades, meant as sheol because Acts 2:27(?) when Peter quoted Ps.16, word for word, except instead of sheol was hades. Showing hades is meant to refer to the original, "sheol".

"Pit" also sometimes translated 'hell' in Ps. 30 refers to the dust of the pit.. again, the common place of the dead, the dust of the grave, "lower part of the earth"..

And Gehenna of course, the notorious (Armageddon) valley.. And just because God CAN destroy both body and soul/"psyche" in Gehenna, doesn't mean He will.. whether as very fiery Armageddon at the culmination of these ages, or in the second death - which the first is the one of and in Adam, and the second death is the one of death when the Son hands all things subdued over to the Father.. Who is a consuming/purifying fire, the elements will melt in a ferocious heat, and there shall be a new heavens and a new Earth wherein righteousness (perfection!) will dwell.. ALL things made mew.. and God will now Tabernacle with mankind upon Earth made new., "the lion will eat straw like the ox, the bear will graze with the cow" Isaiah 11:7.

[guest6667]

I find all the topics in the bible tend to overlap, so when I see one thing differently I have to then look at something else and then another thing. Thankfully I don't worry like I used to, I know that God is kind and corrects us to bring about love, so I''m not afraid of being wrong like I was. But I would like to know of the truth, if i can, before I see it.

Thanks Marie Glen for taking the time to address all of those points.
:gimmefive:

[guest6667]

I re-read the things you referenced and I still see things very differently.

The verse about going via the Spirit to preach to those locked into destruction while the ark was being built (1 Peter) says, I believe, HOW He preached to them in 2 Peter - by saying "Noah was a preacher of righteousness.. His Word - Truth! But translators are fallible..

Considering so many verses.. I cannot believe all go to some sort of holding cell for millennia.. But the original. Sheol. Where they know nothing (Eccles.9:5).

You could say that Christ preached through Noah, but the verses in 1 Peter are not that poetic, they imply a sequence of events and say that they are preached to the dead and 'in spirit' so that they could be judged as though they were 'in the flesh'. If it was speaking of the preaching of Noah, that wouldn't make sense to me because he preached to them while they were in the flesh. Also, it states that they were disloyal long ago and that is the cause for them needing to be preached to, so they could be lead to God. I think it implies this is all a consequence of the Cross, not a future event or one way back during Noah's day.


because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; (1 Peter 3:18-20)

for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)


If the dead were unconscious then Jesus could not preach to them. Also some people say that we cease to exist, which I don't think is supported by any scripture. But if someone means unconscious, like a dream state,  I think this would be difficult to discern from being conscious, through the scriptures, that so often use the terms of sleep and drunk to express a wider definition of death than 'non-existent'.


3 This [is] an evil among all that hath been done under the sun, that one event [is] to all, and also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart during their life, and after it — unto the dead. 4 But [to] him who is joined unto all the living there is confidence, for to a living dog it [is] better than to the dead lion. 5 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten. 6 Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:3-6)


Notice in verse three it says that their hearts are full of evil after their life "and also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart during their life, and after it — unto the dead." Same heart before and after death.


The heart of man deviseth his way, And Jehovah establisheth his step. (Proverbs 16:9)

O that their heart had been thus to them, to fear Me, and to keep My commands all the days, that it may be well with them, and with their sons -- to the age! (Deuteronomy 5:29)


If they stopped thinking then their hearts would no longer be evil, but I think this means they are still desiring and devising evil.

I think what it means by For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything Is that the dead don't know where they are going, like they are in prison.

Perhaps Sheol was a prison in the sense that it represented a separation from God for people who had died before the Cross, as they had sin that needed to be purified for them to return to God. It may not be a place separate from us, but may be.

I really LOVE these verses for clarifying so many things!
     Jesus said, John 5:28-29 - "...all in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the graves/tombs) some "in the resurrection of life" - (which is at His return, Rev.20) and some in the resurrection of judgment" (which is "after the thousand years"/millennium, Rev.20)

This verse reminds me of Matthew 27:51:-53


and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, 52 and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, 53 and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many. 


Maybe they are visually similar because they coincided with each other, like how the physical sign represents a spiritual truth or event. Seems to fit naturally together, also with the 1 Peter verses.

I might be wrong, but I believe that the New Testament prophesy is fulfilled. I believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God and so when all the Gospel writers, Paul and James all imply that the end was soon, I can't see how that can't be true. In the book of Revelation Jesus implies the things John was recording would happen soon, six times. This doesn't mean that I don't think there will be an end and see obvious patterns in all of the Judgement days. Just my opinion 

[guest6667]

Mark 3:4-6, Luke 6:9-11 vs the sheeps and goats parable.
 
4 And he saith to them, ‘Is it lawful on the sabbaths to do good, or to do evil? life to save, or to kill?’ but they were silent. 5 And having looked round upon them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their heart, he saith to the man, ‘Stretch forth thy hand;’ and he stretched forth, and his hand was restored whole as the other; 6 and the Pharisees having gone forth, immediately, with the Herodians, were taking counsel against him how they might destroy him. (Mark 3:4-6)


9 Then said Jesus unto them, ‘I will question you something: Is it lawful on the sabbaths to do good, or to do evil? life to save or to kill?’ 10 And having looked round on them all, he said to the man, ‘Stretch forth thy hand;’ and he did so, and his hand was restored whole as the other; 11 and they were filled with madness, and were speaking with one another what they might do to Jesus. (Luke 6:9-11)


The word for anger, in verse five, is ὀργή (orgé), translated in other places as the ‘wrath’ to come. Starts with the confusion of the law, they thought they clothed God by observing their interpretation of the sabbath, but withholding life from others. God's wrath is still on them and they go into madness, gnashing their teeth (discussing how to destroy him). The other person is given faith to stretch out his hand and is restored whole.

[rosered]

because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; (1 Peter 3:18-20)

for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)


If the dead were unconscious then Jesus could not preach to them. Also some people say that we cease to exist, which I don't think is supported by any scripture. But if someone means unconscious, like a dream state,  I think this would be difficult to discern from being conscious, through the scriptures, that so often use the terms of sleep and drunk to express a wider definition of death than 'non-existent'.

Love How you presented this FB !

  I believe that there is  some key  points here  , and taking note of them .

they are ''spirits in prison ''   

  or trapped spirits in what sense ?  and how does 8 souls  being saved by water   got to  with the spirits in prison ?

Could it be as a watery grave  that must be dried up by Holy Spirit and fire [like lakes of fire ?]

and them being kept in an Ark   was keeping them from the flooding water  covering the earth ...

Same  as Jesus Christ being   compared to  ''the Ark of the covenant '' as the atonement for sin   This old covenant on the Day of Atonement is no longer needed as Jesus Christ became [or was being revealed as ] a new covenant in which His sacrifice on the cross was always the atonement for sins  and is the   LIGHT AND LIFE AND NEW DAY making children of the Day

  no  longer children of the darkness nor ignorance or evil as a contrast .

   the LORD OF SABBATH  as well as the LORD OF ALL ... 

I have been thinking of this  as more of a fact    and less and less as a speculation   these days and has lifted a great burden . 
that the Father judges no one but gives all right to the Son   and the Son judges no man   ,but judges what is right in the sight of God  the Father
  so whom is accusing and judging or even has a right to  now ? it is satan that old  red dragon that was cast out of heaven at the cross[ that finished work of the cross as openly showing us all ]  and  has no contact with the FATHER  at all  but roams the earth in madness and rage   eating the dust of the earth ,   that is  mans flesh .

the only right to access he has to is  under the law of sin and death ...
There is no right to the tree of Life for satan /adversary  under the new covenant    for JESUS CHRIST HAS SWALLOWED UP DEATH IN VICTORY .
   
Now being the Lord of the dead and the living   being the great body of  water [watery grave ]    those that shall hear His voice   will be made alive   by the HOLY SPIRIT and fire 

  Jesus is described as what ? a great LIGHT   and with eyes of fire   , Rev 19   1Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. 12He has eyes like blazing fire, and many royal crowns on His head. He has a name written on Him that only He Himself knows. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is The Word of God....

Proverbs 30:4
Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in His hands? Who has bound up the waters in His cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name, and what is the name of His Son--surely you know!

Daniel 10:6
His body was like beryl, his face like the brilliance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of polished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.

John 17:11
I will no longer be in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one.

  describes Jesus as a   SPIRIT  of fire and Light . Like the Father a  consuming fire ... all beasts fear the FIRE   and the mark of the beast is to lack fear of nothing  , ...But we .Remember, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and wisdom is to depart from evil.  for me the True wisdom is to be taught of the HOLY SPIRIT & fire 
perfect love cast out the fear
  are we not being perfected   , completed  in LOVE /CHRIST ?    the very Heart of God

but it is the Spiritual WORD  that gives us life  , the letter of the law is what kills   , having a duality  of serving both in purpose , as both natures are subdued  , taking captive every thought is in CHRIST   , this anointing  by Holy Spirit witness . TRUTH IS SETTING US FREE .  ....  2 Cor 10     We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

What if the goats are still under the rule of  death / ignorance in  darkness  and the sheep are under the rule of Life /knowlege of God
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness

   this wisdom is earthly sensual and devilish [as snakes of their father ]  James 3    ...

14But if you harbor bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast in it or deny the truth.


15 Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every evil practice.

   The contrast  is evident  in many scriptures , all testifying of the very same things .

Lots to consider in the condition of the heart  and to whom it belongs  as slaves to sin /error nature or the slaves to Christ nature

   the war  and battles  are  going on between our ears  [minds ]  and hearts    the victories are in CHRIST  , those anointed in purpose to destroy the works of satan /adversity    against GODS  will and power  being the temporary   and bearing the  image of the corruptible one  , while the  image of the incorruptible    ONE    IS WORKING OUT SALVATION  ON ALL .
  the great gathering IN  the BODY OF CHRIST  victorious   LIFE  back from the dead .
 
hell being the grave or sheol  body of death of old  and gehenna being the  place or state of pain and torment.  this would surly explain why the suffering is HOW  we learn obedience ! 
  In by and though   the Lord Jesus Christ   ... by walking in the Spirit of light and life and not walking in the flesh  because this is  the letter of the law that kills and makes death its power being the sting of death

Where there is no law there is no transgression?
the tree of knowledge of good and evil , as the evil being present  in that law .and having the power over you
a little evil destroys much good! Ecc 9


Col 2 Alive in Christ
5For although I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and I delight to see your orderly condition and firm faith in Christ.

6 Therefore, just as you have received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in Him, 7 rooted and built up in Him, established in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness....

the WHOLE WORD does testify of this  duality over an over .........  two laws   all mankind is under ...till GOD BE ALL IN ALL .
 

[guest6667]

Were the eight souls saved before the cross? If the remission of sin required the shedding of blood and we have forgiveness in his blood, how did he forgive people before he died? 'And, that ye may know that the Son of Man hath authority on the earth to forgive sins -- (he saith to the paralytic) -- (Mark 2:10) In the parallel Matthew verse it also states “power upon the earth to forgive sins”

for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. (Matthew 5:18)
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth did pass away, and the sea is not any more; (Revelation 21:1)


I think the heavens and earth represent the Spirit (not our spirit, but the spirit) and the Body (or whole of the individual), The heavens being the law that affects what occurs in the body. The earthly representation of this being the temple and scribes. Whatever is bound in heaven is bound in earth.

for when we were in the flesh, the passions of the sins, that [are] through the law, were working in our members, to bear fruit to the death; (Romans 7:5)
for the married woman to the living husband hath been bound by law, and if the husband may die, she hath been free from the law of the husband; (Romans 7:2)
for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death (Romans 8:2)


So maybe before the cross people were forgiven of their sin, but still under the old heavens. Forgiven in the earth, but still under the same authority.

and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:39)
'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you; (John 16:7)


Didn’t people have the spirit before the cross? Afterall Peter said in Acts 7:51 'Ye stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and in ears! ye do always the Holy Spirit resist; as your fathers -- also ye;


Maybe the difference between the Spirit before and after the cross has something to do with the spirits in prison.
and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
in regard to the dispensation of the fulness of the times, to bring into one the whole in the Christ, both the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- in him; (Ephesians 1:10)
7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ, 8 wherefore, he saith, ‘Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,’ — 9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth? (Ephesians 4:7-9)

Maybe the captives he led away were in his Spirit, under the new Heavens, conformed to his image. And maybe they went to the people as part of the one body and one spirit, as one, as the Holy Spirit. The saints are ‘hagios’ as the Holy spirit is ‘hagios’. Delivering the kingdom to people, freeing them into the new heavens and new earths.


Could be missing the mark with all this, but I definitely believe in duality, because I believe in perfection and that is what we are all being made into.

[guest6667]

18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;
(1 Peter 3:18-20)


21 And when eight days were fulfilled to circumcise the child, then was his name called Jesus, having been so called by the messenger before his being conceived in the womb. 22 And when the days of their purification were fulfilled, according to the law of Moses, they brought him up to Jerusalem, to present to the Lord, 23 as it hath been written in the Law of the Lord, — 'Every male opening a womb shall be called holy to the Lord,' 24 and to give a sacrifice, according to that said in the Law of the Lord, 'A pair of turtle-doves, or two young pigeons.'
(Luke 2:21-24)




Circumcision is the destruction of the flesh, so what was known from before could be revealed, the name that was given to him before his conception.

The days of purification needed to be fulfilled according to the Law of Moses (what has any 8 day old baby done that needs to be sanctified?). Then they brought him to Jerusalem. Like how Moses brought Israel to the river Jordan (death) and then they proceed without him into the promised land.

Jerusalem is where he is presented to God according to the Law of the Lord, contrast with the Law of Moses. For the Spirit's law of life in the Messiah Jesus has set me free from the Law of sin and death.

Every male opening a womb shall be called holly, this is said in reference to what came before, i.e. the law of the Lord, the second birth.

The sacrifice according to the Law of the Lord is two young pigeons, the marriage of  the spirit.

[marie glen]

I re-read the things you referenced and I still see things very differently.

The verse about going via the Spirit to preach to those locked into destruction while the ark was being built (1 Peter) says, I believe, HOW He preached to them in 2 Peter - by saying "Noah was a preacher of righteousness.. His Word - Truth! But translators are fallible..

Considering so many verses.. I cannot believe all go to some sort of holding cell for millennia.. But the original. Sheol. Where they know nothing (Eccles.9:5).

You could say that Christ preached through Noah, but the verses in 1 Peter are not that poetic, they imply a sequence of events and say that they are preached to the dead and 'in spirit' so that they could be judged as though they were 'in the flesh'. If it was speaking of the preaching of Noah, that wouldn't make sense to me because he preached to them while they were in the flesh. Also, it states that they were disloyal long ago and that is the cause for them needing to be preached to, so they could be lead to God. I think it implies this is all a consequence of the Cross, not a future event or one way back during Noah's day.


because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach, 20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah -- an ark being preparing -- in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water; (1 Peter 3:18-20)

for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit. (1 Peter 4:6)


If the dead were unconscious then Jesus could not preach to them. Also some people say that we cease to exist, which I don't think is supported by any scripture. But if someone means unconscious, like a dream state,  I think this would be difficult to discern from being conscious, through the scriptures, that so often use the terms of sleep and drunk to express a wider definition of death than 'non-existent'.


3 This [is] an evil among all that hath been done under the sun, that one event [is] to all, and also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart during their life, and after it — unto the dead. 4 But [to] him who is joined unto all the living there is confidence, for to a living dog it [is] better than to the dead lion. 5 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten. 6 Their love also, their hatred also, their envy also, hath already perished, and they have no more a portion to the age in all that hath been done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 9:3-6)


Notice in verse three it says that their hearts are full of evil after their life "and also the heart of the sons of man is full of evil, and madness [is] in their heart during their life, and after it — unto the dead." Same heart before and after death.


The heart of man deviseth his way, And Jehovah establisheth his step. (Proverbs 16:9)

O that their heart had been thus to them, to fear Me, and to keep My commands all the days, that it may be well with them, and with their sons -- to the age! (Deuteronomy 5:29)


If they stopped thinking then their hearts would no longer be evil, but I think this means they are still desiring and devising evil.

I think what it means by For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything Is that the dead don't know where they are going, like they are in prison.

Perhaps Sheol was a prison in the sense that it represented a separation from God for people who had died before the Cross, as they had sin that needed to be purified for them to return to God. It may not be a place separate from us, but may be.

I really LOVE these verses for clarifying so many things!
     Jesus said, John 5:28-29 - "...all in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the graves/tombs) some "in the resurrection of life" - (which is at His return, Rev.20) and some in the resurrection of judgment" (which is "after the thousand years"/millennium, Rev.20)

This verse reminds me of Matthew 27:51:-53


and lo, the vail of the sanctuary was rent in two from top unto bottom, and the earth did quake, and the rocks were rent, 52 and the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who have fallen asleep, arose, 53 and having come forth out of the tombs after his rising, they went into the holy city, and appeared to many. 


Maybe they are visually similar because they coincided with each other, like how the physical sign represents a spiritual truth or event. Seems to fit naturally together, also with the 1 Peter verses.

I might be wrong, but I believe that the New Testament prophesy is fulfilled. I believe that the scriptures are the inspired word of God and so when all the Gospel writers, Paul and James all imply that the end was soon, I can't see how that can't be true. In the book of Revelation Jesus implies the things John was recording would happen soon, six times. This doesn't mean that I don't think there will be an end and see obvious patterns in all of the Judgement days. Just my opinion 

1 Peter 3:19 is hard to make sense of  - the literal word for word - I'd copy paste it if I could lol - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_peter/3-19.htm

I guess I hope no spirits / souls are in prison for millennia..

I loved your statement about Scripture overlapping etc..

One whole glorious story! Ultimately very logical and logic (logos)..

On this topic I always consider the meaning of sheol, originally, according to Scripture verses, that is. And also the two things said after Adam and Eve disobeyed.. "dust you are and to dust shall you return". And the other "surely you won't die" said so anciently ago.. I think of it as being therefor very deep in the human psyche (translated soul:)

So I always have to agree to disagree on this topic.. :gsmile:

... God "gives breath to all"(is life) and "is perfect"(Is.42:5;Mt.5:48). Making imperfect, imo, to be death. ...(So God sent the Son, to "draw all" to Himself! (Jn.12:32). :cloud9: )

I believe "All in graves will come forth.. in a resurrection of eonian life, or of eonian correction (Gr. kolazo" Jn.5:28; Mt.25:46).

Jesus said, John 5:28-29 - "...all in the tombs" (graves) "will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of the graves/tombs) some "in the resurrection of life" - (which is at His return, Rev.20) and some in the resurrection of judgment" (which is "after the thousand years"/millennium, Rev.20)
     Considered WITH - 2 Peter 2:9 - "God knows how to preserve the unrighteous for CORRECTION/kolazo on 'day of judgment."
    AND, Matthew 25:45-46, "He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into aionian/agelasting kolazo, but the righteous into aionian life." — It's human (fallible) translators who translated "agelasting correction" into 'everlasting punishment' or sometimes 'everlasting condemnation or contempt' BUT according to what was ORIGINALLY "God breathed"/inspired, it should read "agelasting correction" ..I have to think much like some experience now during this age, after all, "a person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven" - John 3:27.

Do you believe in an individual judgment day for every person? I know that's a belief of some believers.. Do you believe at death some go to a prison (hades?) and believers go straight to heaven? I know that's a belief too.. (My own daughter :HeartThrob: believes all people survive death as immortal souls.. without belief in Jesus! :faint: )

[marie glen]

P.S.. I also don’t believe all has been fulfilled.. One of the many reasons being that the Greek word translated “end” is “tel” root of the word telescope, and literally means “end-aim”. Like prophecies of the Lord’s two advents - the 2nd one, imo, consisting of “the thousand years” (popularly called millennium) and “the judgment” (500 yrs if the Fall holy days [Lev.23] prophecy the 2nd advent like the Spring ones did His first) ...oops where was I? Prophecy being like the prophecy of His two advents.. one more immediate, smaller in “scope” and a much later, much larger in scope fulfillment (globally —> and a very literal new heavens and new Earth wherein righteousness will dwell, and the lion eat straw like the ox..)

Prophecy fulfilled smaller and larger scope until full extension/fulfillment when it reaches the “end-aim”. I believe “all eyes will see Him returning in power and great glory” ..and 1500 years later the New Jerusalem descending to Earth upon the lands of Israel.. Their being gathered back to the land also (today) occurring literally. So I believe 70 A.D. wAs an apocalypse. Trouble (tribulation), ruin (apocalypse) and ultimately death being the only possible results of imperfection.

On Revelation.. going to post something I’ve been working on (a very brief summary) as a new thread in the Revelation boards..

:Peace2: God bless!

[guest6667]

I find your thoughts very helpful. I often think about the end as the end purpose, thanks to you. I'm on sandy ground with Judgement, and need to think much more about it. But this is my vague understanding.


22 The Father judges no one, but has given all authority to judge to the Son, 23 so that everyone may honor the Son as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. (John 5:22-23)

17 because God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's unique Son. (John 3:17-18)

29 Now there were seven brothers. The first one married and died childless. 30 Then the second 31 and the third married her. In the same way, all seven died and left no children. 32 Finally, the woman died, too. 33 Now in the resurrection, whose wife will the woman be, since the seven had married her?"

34 Jesus told them, "Those who belong to this age marry and are married, 35 but those who are considered worthy of a place in that age and in the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage. 36 Nor can they die anymore, because they are like the angels and, since they share in the resurrection, are God's children. 37 Even Moses demonstrated in the story about the bush that the dead are raised, when he calls the Lord, 'the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, because he considers all people to be alive to him." (Luke 20:29-38)

He destroyed seven nations in the land of Canaan and made his people the owners of the land. (Acts 13:19)

20 And, behold, I send my angel before thy face, that he may keep thee in the way, that he may bring thee into the land which I have prepared for thee. 21 Take heed to thyself and hearken to him, and disobey him not; for he will not give way to thee, for my name is on him. 22 If ye will indeed hear my voice, and if thou wilt do all the things I shall charge thee with, and keep my covenant, ye shall be to me a peculiar people above all nations, for the whole earth is mine; and ye shall be to me a royal priesthood, and a holy nation: these words shall ye speak to the children of Israel, If ye shall indeed hear my voice, and do all the things I shall tell thee, I will be an enemy to thine enemies, and an adversary to thine adversaries. 23 For my angel shall go as thy leader, and shall bring thee to the Amorite, and Chettite, and Pherezite, and Chananite, and Gergesite, and Evite, and Jebusite, and I will destroy them..... 29 I will not cast them out in one year, lest the land become desolate, and the beasts of the field multiply against thee. 30 By little and little I will cast them out from before thee, until thou shalt be increased and inherit the earth. (Exodus 23:20-23,29-30)


The seven nations are judged/condemned. Judgement brings the life of Jesus. Likewise, in Jeremiah Israel is in captivity for 70 years. The final Judgement for Israel was the destruction of the temple, end of law, end of flesh. The Messiah had come, in the flesh, but they had yet to see his glory. But with each judgement day he got closer to them.


Jesus said, "I AM, and 'you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming with the clouds of heaven.'" (Mark 14:62)

13 I beheld in the night vision, and, lo, one coming with the clouds of heaven as the Son of man, and he came on to the Ancient of days, and was brought near to him. 14 And to him was given the dominion, and the honour, and the kingdom; and all nations, tribes, and languages, shall serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom shall not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)


I think Judgement is the unfolding of Jesus. No one will come to the Father but through the Son. The final day of Judgement will be when we see him and know all truth. The bible uses the vocabulary of marriage to describe how we will become one flesh with Jesus. But Like Israel we are repeatedly disloyal, before that final judgement. We are continually saved by grace.


As all of us reflect the glory of the Lord with unveiled faces, we are becoming more like him with ever-increasing glory by the Lord's Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18)


The humble are blessed and the prideful are humbled. I don't know if there is a separate judgement for the righteous and unrighteous, or if goats grow into sheep.

For the time has come for judgment to begin with God's household, and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who disobey the gospel of God? 18 And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? (1 Peter 4:17-18)


I don't know what happens to people who die in darkness, maybe there is a lot more of this journey on the other side of the veil, than this side. Maybe we will remember things we never knew.

I think Sheol is comparable, in a contrary way, to Heaven.

And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? No, you will go down to Hades! (Luke 10:15)


But I tend to see Heaven as God's Spirit, and so I would guess that, Sheol is the lower spirit, or the lower seven spirits. How can anyone be disloyal to his master unless he has two masters? As we are cleansed, we sin less. Spiritually double minded.

Essentially, I think we are spirits in bodies. I think all of this judgement revolves around the cleansing of us, our spirits. And the journey that began with us being breathed into bodies, the end purpose, is for us to see the one who's mouth we came from (I think that is the Word, the Son of God who came from the Father, who all Spirit belongs to).


29 "Master, now you are dismissing your servant in peace according to your promise, 30 because my eyes have seen your salvation, 31 which you prepared for all people to see— 32 a light that will reveal salvation to unbelievers and bring glory to your people Israel." (Luke 2:29-32 in the ISV)

[guest6667]

Because 'end' means 'end purpose', the end can come in the beginning or middle. In fact, the beginning and the end were revealed in him.

[rosered]

Because 'end' means 'end purpose', the end can come in the beginning or middle. In fact, the beginning and the end were revealed in him.

I have considered that we judge ourselves  bro ....... GOD does not judge us , nor Jesus judges no man  but this rather 
the more you judge  rightly the more abundant life you posses   and if you judge  evilly    you will be also  be harmed  by  your own   judgments  .

Jesus leaves it up to us   to believe Him and live or to suffer for wrongdoing .
  in the sense of this as YOU judge so shall You be judged    in the same way you judge others it shall come upon you also
that to me is  learning what is right and righteous  or continue  being in error and judgement still .

  as it is said , ever learning and NEVER coming to the knowledge of TRUTH   

  2Tim 3 Evil in the Last Days

1But understand this: In the last days terrible times will come. 2For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy,

3unloving, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, without love of good, 4traitorous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,


5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Turn away from such as these!   

6They are the kind who worm their way into households and captivate vulnerable women weighed down with sins and led astray by various passions, 7always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.

8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses,a so also these men oppose the truth. They are depraved in mind and disqualified from the faith. 9But they will not advance much further. For just like Jannes and Jambres, their folly will be plain to everyone.

AVOID AND do not touch nor handle these types   to not become partakers with their sins ,    its like a big black hole that nothing can fill , they want  everything and can enjoy nothing !!!  ... 

they are defiled in their minds     as being seared with no conscience  and we know it is the conscience that the HOLY SPIRIT pricks  to convict us of sin/error  !!    big ol red flag  there .   


  1 Tim 4  1 Now the Spirit expressly states that in later times some will abandon the faith to follow deceitful spirits and the teachings of demons, 2influenced by the hypocrisy of liars, whose consciences are seared with a hot iron. 3 They will prohibit marriage and require abstinence from certain foods that God has created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth....

appetites for good things   and craving the truth though the Holy Spirit  verses appetites for destruction always hunting down others  for more power over the people  to deceive  as they are deceived  in their own hearts .


I believe  when Babylon is fully destroyed  in us   than we will know the end . being the pride of Life

  and we know that pride has no place  in Gods kingdom , but gives place to the humble  in heart .