The Doctrine Of The Ages

[FineLinen]

An age means a time period, usually very long, but it does not have to be long. It depends on circumstances. An age has a beginning, it has a middle part, and it has an end. That is the most important thing. It has an end. If it has an end, it must have also a beginning. It is not something that you can equate with "eternity," or even the word "forever." The word "forever" has no end, it means it goes on and on and on, ad infinitum.

The ages of the Bible are not that way. They have beginnings. They have a middle portion between the beginning and the end, but they always have an end. This is why it is so important for us to realize this: so many words in the Bible are mistranslated by such words as "eternal," as "forever," or "ever and ever" when in actual fact the original writers did not intend that type of meaning at all.


http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d050101.htm

[Age-enduring]

Bless you Finelinen.

I was enjoying that article (my username is from Julie Ferwerda's book), until just over a quarter of the way down, when it started getting heavy on salvation doctrine. Had to stop reading.

I've got to ask this question, or at least set a context for my involvement here, with respect to 'is this site exclusive to a belief in Jesus Christ, for  salvation / oneness with the Father?' I've picked up on it here and there.

Let me explain...

I used to believe that doctrine/orthodoxy, but just as there is a path of discovery where one learns that eternal and torment are two separable concepts, so it is with Jesus (the hu-man) and Christ (the anointed God/Onenesss element).

If we are going to talk or consider about things being 'hidden', even from the angels, then we need to consider other veils; the veil of the flesh (got that from Cardinal), the veil of revelation - everyone has their moment; and well, everything is veils over knowledge and their timely removal. You either know something or you don't. What gets interesting is the fuzzy edge between what one knows and doesn't yet know.

At this point we have to take a turn away from revelation based knowledge, but we will come back to it...

Thre is an area of understanding called 'Relevant Alternatives Theory', within epistemology. Look it up.  And here is another site https//www.checktheevidence.com/wordpress/

One needs to spend some time at Andrew Johnson's site. There is a page of free pdf books - I would recommend starting with 'Acknowledged: A perspective on the matter of UF0' s, Aliens and Crop Circles. ...yes, aliens.

The clincher: Why should aliens believe that Jesus Christ died for their sins? And that he is reconciling them back to the Father?

(Hint: if by the end of reading said b0ok you don't accept the likelihood of aliens, your God is too small.)

Belief in Jesus Christ as the only God-man is human-centric (hierarachically and organisationally religious (rules based)). When you add penal substition, it becomes a blame game, and when you add blood sacrifice, it becomes blatantly demonic. That three fold chord binds much of Christendom in its charge of reconciliation.

I accept the historic validity of those doctrines on the basis that they are of an age and belief system that humanity passed through, and I was there - so am not blaming anyone. But I cannot accept them, as more knowledge is revealed about the Father, right now. I cannot base a narrative of how I live now, on how I lived then.  It has to be NOW - everything is now (...strongholds are historical lies brought forward into the now).

There are ages. They are the manifestation of the Father. And He is doing a new thing.

Again, bless you Finelinen, for your faithfulness.

[FineLinen]

Dear Age: My friend, Gary & Michelle have been present day pioneers of this glorious message. There are other sites one being evangelical universalist that also proclaims the restitution.

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/

If you would desire to join me and others who grasp this wondrous Hope the following link will bring you to where I tend to stomp around...

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-restitution-of-all-things.8125626/

Be aware, this is a large site (260K) with few who grasp much outside of the same ol' same ol'. It would be a pleasure meeting you there if you desire. I do appreciate your kind words. This God of ours is awesome!

[FineLinen]

The following post is by Hillsage, on C.F. & a keeper in my opinion.

The noun is Life or judgment and the modifying ADJECTIVE is the age that life/judgment are both taking place in. Your Greek scholars error is in taking a noun...aion/age, which is an undetermined period of time with a beginning and an end, and then defining the modifying adjective of that noun...aionios...as almost always (67 X vs 3 X) being defined as a length of time that's eternally endless both forward and backward. That is bad grammar, but it is the definition of the word aidios. Grammatical law says no adjective can have a definition stronger than the noun from which it is derived from.

Then to add dumber to dumb, the translators backpedaled to define aion/age as a limited time frame (which it is) as well as an unlimited or eternal time frame. HELLO, that's NO DEFINITION AT ALL, it means nothing definitively, but TIME alone. Then they based that worthless definition upon how that word fit their doctrine in a verse. That is just "Lying scribes" scripture. It was in Jer 8:8 and it is still true today. And it does not fall within the parameters of "context determines definition" either. A concept I do understand and do believe in, but not with a definition that has been butchered to fit indoctrination.

An 'hour' (noun) is a 60 minute long period of time. 8 hourly (modifying adjective) meetings doesn't mean an hour is now 480 minutes. An age/aion is a defined amount of time with a beginning and an end. Aidios has no beginning or end. So you are right none of your 'aionios means ETERNITY verses' are correct. None of us have aidios life....saved or unsaved. ALL we ever have until the ages are no more is a 'quality of life in any of the quantity of time ages. Ages that have been and are yet to come.

EPH 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

And what "grace" is this verse talking about manifesting in the future ages? The same grace that we received in this age to be saved. So if you got saved in this age you don't need to be saved again in the age to come. You just need to experience the life that becomes available in that age because you already ARE saved.

Sorry but aidios is used only twice in the new testament. Niether one refers to us!
Already explained that.
Rom. 1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Quality of power defined by length.
Where did you come up with this definition of "quality of power defined by length"? I ask because it 'stinks' IMO. It smells like the same source as all those "lying scribes" that Jeremiah said fooled ALL who believed 'ALL their scholars' back then. :sigh:

So what you now have to do is show why aionios (derived from aion--age) is not a time meaning eternal as has been defined by nearly all Bible believing Greek scholars and is a qualitative not quantitative description. So you are contending that the body of Christ has been deceived for centuries by Greek Translators.
aionios is translated 67 times as everlasting, eternal. All turning a qualifying adjective into a noun. Where does aionios ever get defined as what it is, an adjective pertaining to an AGE.

When is it NOT defined as eternal or everlasting you ask? Let's look;

ROM 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world/aionios began,
Hmm, so your word translated ETERNAL 67 times had a BEGINNING....hmmm.

2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,
Hmm, so your word for ETERNAL had something before ETERNITY began....hmm.

Now here is a verse where the LYING SCRIBES dug deep into the stink to defend a false doctrine.

TIT 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;

So ETERNAL LIFE...before..ETERNAL ever began. Now that stinks bad.

Short story is YES you are believing a long contrived lie perpetrated in the 400 years that universalism was predominant. But then it was almost snuffed out by pen and sword by the WESTERN orthodox church of ROME. So tell me, do you ascribe to Roman Catholic theology....which was the source of so much we Protestants totally disavow? If you don't, then don't use your "how could the scholars be wrong so long" litmus on me. Just because it stinks doesn't mean it doesn't still stick to those who let it. ;)

Those verses above from a reputable scholar whose Concordance is still in print today. Young's Concordance....and here is his translation which stays true to the Greek and the laws of grammar.

YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION
ROM 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

2TI 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

TIT 1:2 upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

An 'age' is a period of time. And 'ages' are "times" (plural) because those 'ages' are plural.

0126 aidios: everduring (forward and backward, or forward only)

A good way would be to show by scholarship why aionion is not never ending but more a quality of of existence instead of a "time"
I just did.

So you believe in universal salvation then.
First exposed to it in the early 70's. Studied it for 10 years just HOPING it was true. Ever since then, I have undoubtedly believed it is true. My God has a plan for all his creation to be saved. If not then he is worse than Hitler could ever be. Firing eternal torturing flames for no more purpose than to satisfy his unforgiving vindictive hate for those HE CONSIGNED TO SIN that He might have mercy on them ALL. Or MIGHT NOT. Now there is an "ETERNAL" belief that befits the fire of Hell.

[Age-enduring]

Dear Age: My friend, Gary & Michelle have been present day pioneers of this glorious message. There are other sites one being evangelical universalist that also proclaims the restitution.

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/

If you would desire to join me and others who grasp this wondrous Hope the following link will bring you to where I tend to stomp around...

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-restitution-of-all-things.8125626/

Be aware, this is a large site (260K) with few who grasp much outside of the same ol' same ol'. It would be a pleasure meeting you there if you desire. I do appreciate your kind words. This God of ours is awesome!

Would you mind being a little bit more explicit as to what you mean?  I don't know how to take what you have written. I.e. am I welcome on tentmaker with the views i
I have expressed? Perhaps set up a poll, Lol.
Love,
Age

[darryl]

The following post is by Hillsage, on C.F. & a keeper in my opinion.

The noun is Life or judgment and the modifying ADJECTIVE is the age that life/judgment are both taking place in. Your Greek scholars error is in taking a noun...aion/age, which is an undetermined period of time with a beginning and an end, and then defining the modifying adjective of that noun...aionios...as almost always (67 X vs 3 X) being defined as a length of time that's eternally endless both forward and backward. That is bad grammar, but it is the definition of the word aidios. Grammatical law says no adjective can have a definition stronger than the noun from which it is derived from.

Then to add dumber to dumb, the translators backpedaled to define aion/age as a limited time frame (which it is) as well as an unlimited or eternal time frame. HELLO, that's NO DEFINITION AT ALL, it means nothing definitively, but TIME alone. Then they based that worthless definition upon how that word fit their doctrine in a verse. That is just "Lying scribes" scripture. It was in Jer 8:8 and it is still true today. And it does not fall within the parameters of "context determines definition" either. A concept I do understand and do believe in, but not with a definition that has been butchered to fit indoctrination.

An 'hour' (noun) is a 60 minute long period of time. 8 hourly (modifying adjective) meetings doesn't mean an hour is now 480 minutes. An age/aion is a defined amount of time with a beginning and an end. Aidios has no beginning or end. So you are right none of your 'aionios means ETERNITY verses' are correct. None of us have aidios life....saved or unsaved. ALL we ever have until the ages are no more is a 'quality of life in any of the quantity of time ages. Ages that have been and are yet to come.

EPH 2:7 that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,

And what "grace" is this verse talking about manifesting in the future ages? The same grace that we received in this age to be saved. So if you got saved in this age you don't need to be saved again in the age to come. You just need to experience the life that becomes available in that age because you already ARE saved.

Sorry but aidios is used only twice in the new testament. Niether one refers to us!
Already explained that.
Rom. 1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Quality of power defined by length.
Where did you come up with this definition of "quality of power defined by length"? I ask because it 'stinks' IMO. It smells like the same source as all those "lying scribes" that Jeremiah said fooled ALL who believed 'ALL their scholars' back then. :sigh:

So what you now have to do is show why aionios (derived from aion--age) is not a time meaning eternal as has been defined by nearly all Bible believing Greek scholars and is a qualitative not quantitative description. So you are contending that the body of Christ has been deceived for centuries by Greek Translators.
aionios is translated 67 times as everlasting, eternal. All turning a qualifying adjective into a noun. Where does aionios ever get defined as what it is, an adjective pertaining to an AGE.

When is it NOT defined as eternal or everlasting you ask? Let's look;

ROM 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world/aionios began,
Hmm, so your word translated ETERNAL 67 times had a BEGINNING....hmmm.

2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world/aionios began,
Hmm, so your word for ETERNAL had something before ETERNITY began....hmm.

Now here is a verse where the LYING SCRIBES dug deep into the stink to defend a false doctrine.

TIT 1:2 In hope of eternal/aionios life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world/aionios began;

So ETERNAL LIFE...before..ETERNAL ever began. Now that stinks bad.

Short story is YES you are believing a long contrived lie perpetrated in the 400 years that universalism was predominant. But then it was almost snuffed out by pen and sword by the WESTERN orthodox church of ROME. So tell me, do you ascribe to Roman Catholic theology....which was the source of so much we Protestants totally disavow? If you don't, then don't use your "how could the scholars be wrong so long" litmus on me. Just because it stinks doesn't mean it doesn't still stick to those who let it. ;)

Those verses above from a reputable scholar whose Concordance is still in print today. Young's Concordance....and here is his translation which stays true to the Greek and the laws of grammar.

YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION
ROM 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,

2TI 1:9 who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,

TIT 1:2 upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,

An 'age' is a period of time. And 'ages' are "times" (plural) because those 'ages' are plural.

0126 aidios: everduring (forward and backward, or forward only)

A good way would be to show by scholarship why aionion is not never ending but more a quality of of existence instead of a "time"
I just did.

So you believe in universal salvation then.
First exposed to it in the early 70's. Studied it for 10 years just HOPING it was true. Ever since then, I have undoubtedly believed it is true. My God has a plan for all his creation to be saved. If not then he is worse than Hitler could ever be. Firing eternal torturing flames for no more purpose than to satisfy his unforgiving vindictive hate for those HE CONSIGNED TO SIN that He might have mercy on them ALL. Or MIGHT NOT. Now there is an "ETERNAL" belief that befits the fire of Hell.

plus, this psycho god keeps creating billions more folk, knowing he'll torture most of them them forever...billions of human beings being tormented for all eternity without any mercy, ever, at all..this belief ? , its monstrous, unjust  and plain silly.....either God is Good and Love or He doesn't exist

[FineLinen]

Dear Darryl: The ghastly view some Christians hold of our Abba reveals a vast cavern of where they dwell. The most intimate word our glorious Lord & Saviour spoke was "Abba Father".

Abba Father = dearest Daddy.

It is on the breast of Dearest Daddy we dwell!

[FineLinen]

Dear Age: My friend, Gary & Michelle have been present day pioneers of this glorious message. There are other sites one being evangelical universalist that also proclaims the restitution.

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/

If you would desire to join me and others who grasp this wondrous Hope the following link will bring you to where I tend to stomp around...

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-restitution-of-all-things.8125626/

Be aware, this is a large site (260K) with few who grasp much outside of the same ol' same ol'. It would be a pleasure meeting you there if you desire. I do appreciate your kind words. This God of ours is awesome!

Would you mind being a little bit more explicit as to what you mean?  I don't know how to take what you have written. I.e. am I welcome on tentmaker with the views i
I have expressed? Perhaps set up a poll, Lol.
Love,
Age

Dear Age: We at the Tent believe the entire cosmos will find its ultimate consummation in Him. You are not only welcome, we embrace you with the cords of love flowing from Him.

Regarding "aliens" we are already being overrun with aliens (1/2 humans climbing up the side of the earth) a few more will give us more opportunity to proclaim His triumph!

[jabcat]

Bless you Finelinen.

I was enjoying that article (my username is from Julie Ferwerda's book), until just over a quarter of the way down, when it started getting heavy on salvation doctrine. Had to stop reading.

I've got to ask this question, or at least set a context for my involvement here, with respect to 'is this site exclusive to a belief in Jesus Christ, for  salvation / oneness with the Father?' I've picked up on it here and there.

Let me explain...

I used to believe that doctrine/orthodoxy, but just as there is a path of discovery where one learns that eternal and torment are two separable concepts, so it is with Jesus (the hu-man) and Christ (the anointed God/Onenesss element).

Gary Amirault, founder of Tentmaker - ""[The aforementioned forms of Universalism] is NOT the universalism of Tentmaker Ministries, or true Christian universalism. We have nothing to do with the various forms of the New Age Movement. There is only one Name under heaven by which one must be saved as far as Gary Amirault and Tentmaker Ministries goes -- that name is Jesus the Christ (English), Yeshua Ha Machiach (Hebrew), Iesus Christos (Greek)... We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us...People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake."

[jabcat]

"..picked up on it here and there...Belief in Jesus Christ as the only God-man... when you add blood sacrifice, it becomes blatantly demonic.

If you've only "picked up on it here and there", then perhaps we need to do a better job of clearly proclaiming Jesus, the Savior of the world and the only way to the Father through belief on His name and the shedding of His blood to redeem us.  Anything else we do here is predicated on and revolves around that.

"But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin." (I John 1:7)

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto the death." (Revelation 12:11)

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ." (Ephesians 2:12-13)

"being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood,"  (Romans 3:25)

[FineLinen]

Dear Jab: Brother Gary Amarault continues to be a bright light in our Father's mighty working of Reconciliation. We felt led of Abba to visit him in Mo. when we were there last year, one week before he went Home. Having you as an administrator of this site is a great confidence for us. Thank you for your work and faithfulness to the high calling of our mighty Saviour & Lord.

[Age-enduring]

Bless you Finelinen.

I was enjoying that article (my username is from Julie Ferwerda's book), until just over a quarter of the way down, when it started getting heavy on salvation doctrine. Had to stop reading.

I've got to ask this question, or at least set a context for my involvement here, with respect to 'is this site exclusive to a belief in Jesus Christ, for  salvation / oneness with the Father?' I've picked up on it here and there.

Let me explain...

I used to believe that doctrine/orthodoxy, but just as there is a path of discovery where one learns that eternal and torment are two separable concepts, so it is with Jesus (the hu-man) and Christ (the anointed God/Onenesss element).

Gary Amirault, founder of Tentmaker - ""[The aforementioned forms of Universalism] is NOT the universalism of Tentmaker Ministries, or true Christian universalism. We have nothing to do with the various forms of the New Age Movement. There is only one Name under heaven by which one must be saved as far as Gary Amirault and Tentmaker Ministries goes -- that name is Jesus the Christ (English), Yeshua Ha Machiach (Hebrew), Iesus Christos (Greek)... We do not believe members of other religions are saved at this time.  Salvation should be just as much our possession on this side of the grave as on the other. We, who have been given salvation should be sharing that salvation through the fruit in our lives by being joined to Christ. We should be ministering to the lost through the gifts of the Holy Spirit He has deposited in us...People come to Christ through the gospel, through preaching the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If one believes everyone is already saved, there is no point in sharing the gospel. We believe this is a mistake."

Not everyone is 'saved' at this time. There is a born from above experience - a revelation of faith. You may call that salvation - I don't.  No one can 'do' anything for you to help you, beyond that initial revelation. Adam and Eve still die, toil and have pain in child birth. Oneness with the Father is primarily about being - Jesus taught that. We are human beings, doings and havings, in that order. Salvation narrative is a cop out - it is someone doing something for you. Adam had to come out of hiding, and so do we. I'm not talking about a works based salvation - I'm talking about a knowing of Oneness - no separation. There is no chasm, except that created by having eaten from the tree of judgements. But there were two trees with only one root. Man has to eat from both branches / trees, to know what it is to be like God, but only then can he choose, once he knows. ...choose that equality with God is not something to be grasped. ...the accuser is either wanting to be God (I will, I will, I will....)  or judging others. That's not our calling.

[jabcat]

Dear Jab: Brother Gary Amarault continues to be a bright light in our Father's mighty working of Reconciliation. We felt led of Abba to visit him in Mo. when we were there last year, one week before he went Home. Having you as an administrator of this site is a great confidence for us. Thank you for your work and faithfulness to the high calling of our mighty Saviour & Lord.

Humbly  :HeartThrob: FineLinen.  Thank you for your faithfulness.

[FineLinen]

Dear A.E.: Salvation is an on-going experience in our Glorious Father in the past, present & future tenses. He calls it salvation, at-one-ment, change & transformation of the whole broken man (Adam1). The Last Adam meets the entire broken mass of mankind in the despair of Adam, with the "all the more" of His prevailing answer!

Adam1 = the many/polus "made sinners" >>>>Last Adam = the many/polus "made righteous".

This is the God equation, equal on both sides with "all the more" dominating the Saviour of the all, the Lord Jesus Christ!

[jabcat]

Salvation is an on-going experience in our Glorious Father in the past, present & future tenses. He calls it salvation, at-one-ment, change & transformation of the whole broken man (Adam1). The Last Adam meets the entire broken mass of mankind in the despair of Adam, with the "all the more" of His prevailing answer!

Adam1 = the many/polus "made sinners" >>>>Last Adam = the many/polus "made righteous".

This is the God equation, equal on both sides with "all the more" dominating the Saviour of the all, the Lord Jesus Christ!

:dsunny:  Saved - new spiritual birth, born into the family
Being saved - dying to self/growing in grace and knowledge, looking to Jesus the author and finisher.
Will be saved - immortality, new spiritual body   

"for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

.."every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.."   

:thumbsup:

[Age-enduring]

I do get that there is an event and a process, typically called salvation - I'm not naïve.  :icon_jokercolor:

My issue is that as a semantic concept, it is very often used to judge people - if there are the saved, then there are the lost.  The them, and the us - those in the club, and those out of it, who don't believe the right things.  It is not so. From now on, we regard no one from a worldly point of view.  The moment of crossing over happens to everyone at some point, not necessarily in the mortal life that we know them.

We are called to disciple, not to categorize.

Even your post jabcat alludes to the spiritual reality that salvation, by faith, is from and of the Father. We have no place or position to define how He does His work of restitution and with whom, in what order, and the places of belief where they dwell on the way.  It is a spiritual reality but is not for us to define.

Typically, it may look like someone going to church, singing Christian songs, but who are we to judge in a matter or process of what the Father defines and works in all into being; living and moving in Him.  God is not religious.

Having said all of that, I have a workmate who is on the threshold of asking the Lord into his life. God has brought us together for this reason.  It has been a relatively slow process of discipling - 10 months of contact, most days. There's a lot of stuff going off that has brought him to this place - it is too much God for it not be his time to come. He wrote in a text last night; 'I will I have to find the courage because I know my life will change'.  Please pray he tips over the edge sooner rather than later. This guy is a fire brand.

[FineLinen]

Dear A.E.: The ways of the Lord are past finding out! When the Unlimited One reaches out in His great love & grace to bring us to Him, a new Day begins. May His powerful grasp be upon your friend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=6Z3q8IIT-XA&feature=emb_logo

[FineLinen]

The story has been told of a beautiful incident that occurred many years ago in the North of England.

A young Salvation Army girl, only recently saved, was overflowing with the joy of the Lord and was eager to share her salvation with all others. Walking along the street of a little Durham city, she saw a tall, gray-haired man coming toward her and, stranger though he was, she stopped him and said,

"Pardon me, sir, but are you saved?"

The tall stranger leaned over toward her and answered, with a quizzical smile playing on his kindly face:

"My dear, do you mean ESOTHEN, or SOZOMENOS, or SOTHESOMAI?"

The Salvation Army girl was bewildered - it was "all Greek" to her!

She did not know that she had stopped bishop Westcott, one of the greatest of Greek scholars and an editor of the famous Westcott and Hort edition of the Greek New Testament.

He had asked her, using three different tenses of the Greek verb: "Do you mean, I was saved, or do you mean, I am being saved, or do you mean, I shall be saved?"

And then bishop Westcott, who was indeed saved and knew that he was saved, lovingly explained a little of the three tenses of the gospel to the young girl, and showed her something of the riches of her past salvation, her ongoing salvation, and her future salvation, from spirit to soul to body; and before they separated that earnest young girl knew more about the gospel and her Saviour than she had ever known before, and went away rejoicing that she had asked this tall stranger whether he was saved."

[FineLinen]

"Saved - new spiritual birth, born into the family
Being saved - dying to self/growing in grace and knowledge, looking to Jesus the author and finisher.
Will be saved - immortality, new spiritual body   

"for it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—"

.."every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.."

Dear Jab: the wildly extravagant love of God is bringing the entire creation back to Himself. It has already begun in us who have fallen on our knees before Him. He will not rest till He has our entire tri -part being!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=178&v=9cu5-Q_S_i4&feature=emb_logo

[guest6667]

who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth; (1 Timothy 2:4)

I write to you, fathers, because ye have known him who is from the beginning; I write to you, young men, because ye have overcome the evil. I write to you, little youths, because ye have known the Father: (1 John 2:14)

Wherefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, hope perfectly upon the grace that is being brought to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, (1 Peter 1:13)

A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify it, having sent through his messenger to his servant John, (Revelation 1:1)

Revelation tells of the spiritual journey to knowing Jesus. The spiritual application of the ages.

edit- the Son of God is the Alpha and Omega, "him who is from the beginning". beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is; (1 John 3:2)

[FineLinen]

Dear Fatbird: Greetings to you, one of our newer members of our Tent. Our Father continues to draw a remnant unto Himself. That remnant, known as the "especially" among other terms, are very important to Him.

The process of coming to know our God is in degrees of glory. With each unfolding of Himself to us there must come change and transformation in our tri-part being. Our Father's plan is, and always has been, sons fashioned in the image of the First Born Master of Reconciliation. He will not rest until the first Adam is swallowed into the Last. Even then He will not rest as the Ageless One sits in communion with those He has made for Himself.

[jabcat]

Age-Enduring - "I do get that there is an event and a process, typically called salvation - I'm not naïve.  :icon_jokercolor:

My issue is that as a semantic concept, it is very often used to judge people - if there are the saved, then there are the lost.  The them, and the us - those in the club, and those out of it, who don't believe the right things.  It is not so. From now on, we regard no one from a worldly point of view.  The moment of crossing over happens to everyone at some point, not necessarily in the mortal life that we know them.

We are called to disciple, not to categorize."


It's not that I don't agree with at least most of this, I'm just not sure what ax there is to grind here.  No one has said anything about judging or separating.  I personally resist doing so.  However, since we're on the subject, I think it's wise to have discernment and definitely be aware there's a difference between believers and non-believers.  I try to be loving, but I also for instance (as some do) don't claim everyone is the same, "we're all one", etc., as I don't believe believers are "one with the world" or that darkness and light blend into the same shade of gray.  Jesus made several statements about it, including "they will know you are my disciples by your love".  Paul made many distinctions, including "deliver me from evil men".  John said if you believe you are given the right to be called children of God.  So to me, there are dangers on both sides;  being judgmental and harsh, or being so open-minded that our brains fall out and we have no discernment whatsoever and accept everything and everyone that comes skipping down the road claiming "peace love and spirituality".  "Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves". 


"Even your post jabcat alludes to the spiritual reality that salvation, by faith, is from and of the Father. We have no place or position to define how He does His work of restitution and with whom, in what order, and the places of belief where they dwell on the way.  It is a spiritual reality but is not for us to define."

Yes, salvation is of Him.  He draws those to whom He chooses at their time, and gives them faith to believe.  But I believe it absolutely can, and is, defined in scripture.  What it means, and how it's done.  I won't go find all the scriptures that talk about believing on Him, calling on Him, believing on His name, including "to those who believe He gave the right to be called children of God".  Paul also talked about examining ourselves to be sure we had believed/come to salvation.  Still, it is of God, we respond, as He empowers us to do so;  sometimes we resist though, and then must be "saved as by fire" [discipline/corrective punishment, things not of God spiritually burned away] at some future point. 


"Typically, it may look like someone going to church, singing Christian songs, but who are we to judge in a matter or process of what the Father defines and works in all into being; living and moving in Him.  God is not religious."


Not at all, and again, no one here advocates for such.  Not sure where that comes from, unless outside of the Tent.  I'm sure it happens, but...


"Having said all of that, I have a workmate who is on the threshold of asking the Lord into his life. God has brought us together for this reason.  It has been a relatively slow process of discipling - 10 months of contact, most days. There's a lot of stuff going off that has brought him to this place - it is too much God for it not be his time to come. He wrote in a text last night; 'I will I have to find the courage because I know my life will change'.  Please pray he tips over the edge sooner rather than later. This guy is a fire brand."


Sounds like God is drawing him, and he will be given faith to believe.  Hopefully now, if not later for sure.

[Age-enduring]

Thank you for your response jabcat.

I think my axe grinding is to do with doctrinaire type approaches, and the article in the OP got doctrinaire very quickly.  Also, bible quoting is quite doctrinaire. It's not how it's meant to be. We are expected to be Christ to those who around us and those who are seeking, which means not quoting Jesus all the time - we have The Word in us as a living and active reality - the letter should only be a reminder or to agree common ground. When the 5,000 were fed, he said "You give them something to eat".  He expected them to do what he eventually had to do for them, according to the report we have.

I don't find classical Christianity that appealing anymore, because it abdicates responsibility to become mature sons. I'm also suspicious of trinitarian doctrine, which is exacerbated by deferring to Jesus doing it all. It even completely undergirds second coming doctrine - that he's going to come and do what he didn't do the first time for the Jews.  I mean, it would be nice if he splits the skies, but I don't think it's mature thinking - it sounds like a get us off the hook card to me.

That's all.

Once again, I appreciate your thoughts.
Love,
age

[jabcat]

Thank you for your response jabcat.

I think my axe grinding is to do with doctrinaire type approaches, and the article in the OP got doctrinaire very quickly.  Also, bible quoting is quite doctrinaire. It's not how it's meant to be. We are expected to be Christ to those who around us and those who are seeking, which means not quoting Jesus all the time - we have The Word in us as a living and active reality - the letter should only be a reminder or to agree common ground.

And thank you :)

I feel compelled to follow up to the above.  We won't debate veracity of scripture, as that's simply the default for discussion at TM, i.e., the scriptures are reliable and to be respected.

However, just gleaning from what you posted, I MAY have a little different view of scripture, as I do see it as the written word/s of God (*accurately translated/Spirit-revealed).  I don't know of any spiritual "rules" that say it shouldn't be quoted.  Obviously, as led and not just to hammer away or take the place of other appropriate helpful conversation as led by the Spirit - but very quotable none-the-less, IMO.  When it's called for/necessary/helpful. 

Again, not to be in ongoing struggle about it on this site, but quickly as what I believe He's chastened and taught me to understand;   God expresses Himself (His logos - His thoughts, intentions, plans) in many ways.  Revealed however He chooses, in Jesus who made His thoughts/intentions/plans flesh (brought it to earth and dwelt among us) and by spoken and written word.  Of course the scriptures point to Jesus, and He is alive in us who have been saved.  I believe God's logos (however He reveals it/gives it to us) is alive and powerful and quicker than a 2 edged sword and separates the parts of us (causes us to face up to things, learn, grow).  As Paul wrote about "the letter", in its context, I see as meaning specifically The Law - not any of the other things in general that were written to us for our benefit.  So anyway, no huge disagreements, just some thoughts/distinctions I felt led to share.

:)