Thinking of leaving my church that I have been going to for nearly 2.5 years...

[DanielB]

I have wondered whether I should leave my church and find a different one. I would not regard them as apostate, but some of what I hear does trouble me. To put it bluntly...

1. They seem too progressive and subtly speak about politics. I am not sure if my use of "progressive" will only be understood correctly by americans since such political terms often mean different things in different countries. I would prefer that church influence a person's politics(or ideally discourage politics), rather than politics influencing Bible interpretation. For example, using She/Her as pronouns by God part of the time. This is not necessarily offensive to me. The main argument against it would be that the Bible consistently uses male pronouns. My concern is not the use of the pronouns themselves which may not be entirely untrue since I would think that Godly femininity would be a reflection of some attributes of God and it also seems to possibly be the logical conclusion of the idea that God made the male and female sex in the image of God to complement each other. My concerns are A. That it may make people more vulnerable to strange and harmful doctrines or ideas(new-agey, third wave feminist, or so on). B. This view often rides along with the idea that God has no gender or is not male, which is unbiblical since Jesus is male with a body and Jesus is God. C. That it may reinforce beliefs that God can not understand or relate to women without being female, which vastly underestimates God's understanding of everything.
So my concern isn't that I perceive it to be insulting to God in itself, but that I am suspicious of anyone's motivations for doing so or false beliefs might hitch a ride along with it. That is just one example.

2. One of my main motivations, or perhaps an excuse, for staying is that I might be a good influence on them or keep it from being an echo chamber. But I am unlikely to have much influence on this and it is a questionable attitude for me to have anyway.

3. I haven't really become very involved or formed relationships with people at my church more than being acquaintances. It is not my congregation's fault that I have not formed better relationships with the people, I find social situations ambigious and tend to avoid initiating or joining conversation.

4. I think I could probably form a more mutually edifying relationship with another church.

There may be reasons that I am forgetting. These beliefs don't necessarily represent everyone at my church but the more outspoken people and the leadership seem to have the views that I am concerned with. It is a mennonite church and I suspect that some of the older people might be more religiously conservative and just stayed with the church or denomination they were raised in since mennonites used to be more conservative but have become more progressive in the last few decades(some mennonites are certainly very apolitical and old fashioned).

It is difficult to even think about leaving, but it might be the right thing to do. I was thinking, this must be what dating is like, or breaking up at least. I am wondering what the best way to do it would be, I don't want to just "ghost" them and leave them wondering what happened to me. Speaking of dating, I have heard that it is very common for someone that wants to break up with someone to find excuses to do so or to blame the other person for their dissatisfaction, I don't want to do that with this situation. When looking up churches, I feel a bit depressed, I wonder if I will have the same dissatisfaction at any church.

The idea that gives me the most hope would be some sort of house/home church(I have never been to one). I have generally felt refreshed going to small groups or group discussions. A relatively small group of people would probably end up being less isolating for me.

[darryl]

when i read the title i thought u were maybe leaving cos they were preaching an angry vengeful god who sends folk to everlasting torture in hellfire....the reasons u give cos they're liberal/progressive etc...well, i do know 'correct' doctrine is important but at least they dont preach eternal hellfire...thats a plus..its up to u....i guess...maybe pray about it?...seek the Lord on it...thats my advice.

[GodIsLove]

Personally, I dislike using male pronouns for God, because God is neither male nor female, God is ultimate love and spirit. I've heard people use female pronouns for the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, so your argument that because Jesus is God and Jesus is male, that God is male...that doesn't ring true to me. In Christ there is neither male nor female. I think using male pronouns gives us an incomplete picture of God because our minds are trained to think things like: strong, stern, etc for male, but not nurturer for example. And I believe God does have all the male and all the female qualities encompassing. I have told my kids that while we say he for God out of habit or tradition, God is not a man, God is spirit, creator, love, eternal, encompassing more than we can comprehend.

Not saying you should stay in the church, or leave, just commenting that I don't see the danger in acknowledging that our language is incomplete when trying to explain something unexplainable by Earthly standards.

I read a quote recently that said that if we, as finite humans occupying a small slice of time, are able to fully explain and understand God, that what we understand isn't truly God because an eternal being can't be fully understood by a finite being. Eventually maybe, when we are like and in Christ, we will be able to fully understand, but for now on the Earth plane all language and thought about God  falls short of the true essence of God.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: He pulled me out of any of them early in my walk, but I think they are like filling stations. They meet a particular need for a season and when that season is up and you have gleaned all they have to offer, it's time to move on. The first one He put me in, had praise and worship and the corporate love thing down.  The second excelled in people who moved in the gifts of the Spirit and the pastor had a strong anointing for healing. The third and final one, that pastor was really a teacher. This only took me 2.5 years total, and then He had separated me unto Himself. Like the children of Israel that stopped moving with the cloud at a particular oasis formed by the water from the Rock, people "die"on the vine by staying past their appointed time there, not realizing the cloud has moved, and the life giving water with it. Ask Him for direction. Blessings....

[DanielB]

I have prayed about it for a long time, since it had started bothering me(at least praying what to do about it even if leaving wasn't on my mind). I should mention that this isn't something that has just started bothering me in the last week or two.

when i read the title i thought u were maybe leaving cos they were preaching an angry vengeful god who sends folk to everlasting torture in hellfire....the reasons u give cos they're liberal/progressive etc...well, i do know 'correct' doctrine is important but at least they dont preach eternal hellfire...thats a plus..its up to u....i guess...maybe pray about it?...seek the Lord on it...thats my advice.

I am not much of a nitpicker when it comes to doctrine. If I were, I would have left probably within at most a few months after I started going. It is not just about intellectual disagreements. I can also tolerate that people insist on having political views, even though I dislike all politics and devotedly avoid and block them, but it becomes an issue for me when politics informs a person's theology or when people are putting hope in politics(or the state) or when many people are afraid or putting their hopes in the latest political happenings.

BTW I am not conservative either, I reject all the political theories and parties I have heard of as being false or bad other than maybe a "Jesus for King" stance(but even then we should not hope that Jesus will save the world by ruling like a worldly king because Jesus rejected being a king in the world's way).

Personally, I dislike using male pronouns for God, because God is neither male nor female, God is ultimate love and spirit. I've heard people use female pronouns for the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, so your argument that because Jesus is God and Jesus is male, that God is male...that doesn't ring true to me. In Christ there is neither male nor female. I think using male pronouns gives us an incomplete picture of God because our minds are trained to think things like: strong, stern, etc for male, but not nurturer for example. And I believe God does have all the male and all the female qualities encompassing. I have told my kids that while we say he for God out of habit or tradition, God is not a man, God is spirit, creator, love, eternal, encompassing more than we can comprehend.

I used to hold some of these views and I am going to respond to some of them but before I do I am going to say that this isn't a huge deal to me(if it was, I would have already left my church by now) and I am just responding with some of my opinions not to argue you into believing what I believe but just to share my viewpoint.

"I've heard people use female pronouns for the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God, so your argument that because Jesus is God and Jesus is male, that God is male...that doesn't ring true to me."
Trinitarians say that God is three persons. If the holy spirit is female, that would just mean that one person of the Godhead is female and at least one is male rather than being neither, right?

"In Christ there is neither male nor female."
That verse is not saying that Christ is not male or female, it is talking about "the church".

"I think using male pronouns gives us an incomplete picture of God because our minds are trained to think things like: strong, stern, etc for male, but not nurturer for example. And I believe God does have all the male and all the female qualities encompassing."
I agree that God possesses any Godly(rather than false) masculine and feminine traits. If human nature is a reflection of God's nature and it is split into two complementary parts, it would mean that God has both those parts. That being said, I think that it is helpful to see at least God the Son as male for the same reason that you think it is flawed to do so. I'm not trying to antagonize you, just consider this... I used to be quite lost about what manhood or manliness is(beyond the obvious physical traits), I was not satisfied with stereotypes and theories that I had heard about it. When I started thinking of Jesus as a role model for manliness(he is still a role model for women of course just as any Godly man or woman is a role model for the other sex), it started to make more sense. Yes, people believe some negative or misguided things about masculinity, but by accepting Jesus as the perfect man, it proves the false stereotypes wrong. Jesus is proof that men are not ogres or simpletons, that we can be as loving as women and also possess emotions and stuff.  :winkgrin: Not that traditional ideas about masculinity are all wrong or that we should through it all away, I think a lot of it is good and true(and Godly), including some of the stuff that is mislabeled toxic masculinity(of course some of what is labeled toxic masculinity truly is a fallen/twisted/toxic masculinity or in some other cases simply a bad trait that doesn't have anything to do with a person's maleness).

But for me, the primary problem with saying that God is not a man/male is that it basically denies the incarnation. Have you seen the movie Avatar? Well the incarnation works... pretty much nothing like Avatar. I could be mistaken, but I think the whole point of the incarnation is that God actually was/is human while being 100% God. As far as I know, God never de-incarnated, he is still human insofar as he is God the Son(I have no idea how the trinity is supposed to work by the way, I just see the Godhead as a mystery). We should also assume that he has a body, unless he threw it away after the ascension. What implications soes that have for our theology or philosophy? I don't know. It at the very least would mean that we should have a high view of the human body, that the body is not a prison, or so on. Another more "edgy" conclusion that it has led me to is that contrary to what the great majority of christians say, Jesus/God has a penis.  :eek: Many christians insist "God does not actually have genitalia"(I parroted that idea once or twice before my current way of thinking). Now would that idea(that God technically actually does have genitalia) have any significant implications(compared to his nose hair or skin color or eye color?) Is it just a meaningless technicality that only a smart alec would want to know? (Like the sort of smart alec that would say "actually, God does have a penis and also 8 fingers...and two thumbs cuz thumbs are not fingers.".) :icon_jokercolor: Like Does it mean that God favors one sex over the other? Certainly not, that would be a silly non-sequitur.

God is spirit, but I think that at least in Biblical times, it was not so clear-cut that to be spiritual is to necessarily be incorporeal. I have no attachment to the idea of living forever in a body, I think many people get too attached to the idea of an embodied or disembodied existence as if God could not make either one a heavenly existence.

This isn't something that I push as some necessary doctrine, I just want people to think about it critically(my ideas but also the claim that God is not human, disembodied, etc). And just in case I wasn't clear, the issue of using female pronouns about God was not something that offended me, it was just one example of what has happened.


I don't mind continuing this side discussion here if you have any response but if anyone has anything else to say in response to the OP, I would like to see that too. Speaking of which, I am planning to leave unless I have some compelling reason not to. Assuming that I am going to leave, how should I go about it?

[jugghead]

For me, to leave my church was simple, not because I wanted too, but because I had to change my job, and the thing is, despite the fact that I was there for over two years and made some close relationships (so I thought), I have never even gotten a call from any of them, even to say Hi!

I don't hold it against them, I just view it as, I was meant to cut all ties, and it took that for me to come to the understanding of UR.

my  :2c:

[Heart-song]

We left church after 9/11/01 because our church decorated the church in Red, White, and Blue banners after 9/11 and was completely in favor of immediately rushing to war.   That was when God called me out of church/es permanently.    I don't know how anyone can stand to "go to church".  Jesus did not create organized religion.

[DanielB]

I have went to a house curch agthering for the last two weeks. It seems great so far. I think that we are greatly deprived if we lack good christian relationships in our lives where we can discuss the Bible and christian life. Relationships on the internet alone are just not the same. I can understand getting discouraged by bad experiences trying to find christians that have a relationship with God(not one of distrusting fear) and that believe and respect the Bible. Many people have given up on dating/courting too after dissapointment or bad experiences, should we give up on finding a wife too? Some of you who have given up already likely have a christian relationshoinship or two like that There are different kinds of groups calling themselves house churches, some are basically a regulach but smaller church, some are probably crazy, some are bitter about their experiences in more mainstream churches, some live in radically different ways, etc.

So far, thae gatherings that I have been to have involved meeting, general conversation, and conversation about the Bible, people offering their different perspectives and thoughts and so on. Similar to a lot of Bible studies I guess. If you go to a church, you should probably go seeking relationships(or I guess if you like singing), you can find many good sermons online, even if you are only looking for universalist preachers, so my point is that it is pretty pointless if you just go and listen to a sermon, sing a few hymns, and have some boring small talk and leave. I mean, that may be better than nothing, but I would think that the majority of christians would get bored with that.

Maybe I have gotten very lucky to find a good group or maybe I am overly optimistic when I have only been to two gatherings(plus a Bible study with the same people). Maybe a lot of people wouldn't even call it a church. It is great for me, since I find it hard to have decent conversations with people outside of my family otherwise, due to my social anxiety. Don't give up on finding christian relationships off of the internet, or at least find some that you can discuss christian stuff with through webcams or snap chat or whatever. My best friends outsifde of my family are currently internet friends, but it just isn't the same, except maybe video chats or something. At least for me, it is encouraging to be able to discuss these things with people in "real life".

[CHB]

I have been going to a Baptist Church for a while now. It is a small Church. I get to do Bible Studies and speak on things once in a while. There are some very good people who attend there. I told them in the beginning what I believed. I was thinking today, about all who believe in the salvation of all, if we shouldn't speak out and tell the world what we believe? What if the Disciples had handled the truth like we do, never say anything to anybody or write very little about what we believe? How would we today know or understand the things we do?  If you get to talk or say anything about the salvation of all, I would advise you to stay and keep on telling the truth every chance you get. I think sometimes we who believe in UR are wrong in keeping quite and staying to ourselves. Aren't we suppose to be a light and salt to the world? That is what Jesus told his disciples. If the salt has lost it's savour what good is it? Jesus said it was neither "fit for the land , nor yet for the dunghill".  That is how I feel sometimes. Sometimes I think all who believe in UR should go to Church and shake things up a little.
Of course, I have to say that it is God who reveils the truth to all but sometimes he uses us to do it.

Just some thoughts I had.

CHB

[Shev]

God is Spirit, but Jesus called Him our Father and His. I believe this has much to do with how seed is sown and received.

[Cardinal]

I have been going to a Baptist Church for a while now. It is a small Church. I get to do Bible Studies and speak on things once in a while. There are some very good people who attend there. I told them in the beginning what I believed. I was thinking today, about all who believe in the salvation of all, if we shouldn't speak out and tell the world what we believe? What if the Disciples had handled the truth like we do, never say anything to anybody or write very little about what we believe? How would we today know or understand the things we do?  If you get to talk or say anything about the salvation of all, I would advise you to stay and keep on telling the truth every chance you get. I think sometimes we who believe in UR are wrong in keeping quite and staying to ourselves. Aren't we suppose to be a light and salt to the world? That is what Jesus told his disciples. If the salt has lost it's savour what good is it? Jesus said it was neither "fit for the land , nor yet for the dunghill".  That is how I feel sometimes. Sometimes I think all who believe in UR should go to Church and shake things up a little.
Of course, I have to say that it is God who reveils the truth to all but sometimes he uses us to do it.

Just some thoughts I had.

CHB

Very true. I don't limit Him in anything. Everything He has given us by His Spirit in revelation we are held accountable for, and if we are ashamed of Him before men, He will be ashamed of us before our Father. The revelation we receive through His Spirit IS Him, being formed IN US, so we really are being ashamed of Him and hiding that light we received if we "cover up" that Light. Blessings...

[GodIsLove]

I hadn't thought about it like that, CHB.

I don't hold back because of being ashamed: when I hold back it's because I am not sure if my sharing will help or hinder the person's walk, or I am unsure of how to present it. I pray for opportunities to share, or words from God, and when they come up I share and when not I don't. It's a matter of discernment I guess. But I do like the idea of being more open across the board, and maybe starting with the fullness of my beliefs right away? I don't know!

[Cardinal]

I hadn't thought about it like that, CHB.

I don't hold back because of being ashamed: when I hold back it's because I am not sure if my sharing will help or hinder the person's walk, or I am unsure of how to present it. I pray for opportunities to share, or words from God, and when they come up I share and when not I don't. It's a matter of discernment I guess. But I do like the idea of being more open across the board, and maybe starting with the fullness of my beliefs right away? I don't know!

:cloud9: I've found that when I'm supposed to share in season, it's like I CAN'T shut it up in my bones anymore! It just flows out. Other times, when I've tried to bring it out, I might as well talk about the weather for nothing comes out "right". I've learned the hard way to shut my mouth sooner rather than later, in those seasons.  :laughing7:

[GodIsLove]

I hadn't thought about it like that, CHB.

I don't hold back because of being ashamed: when I hold back it's because I am not sure if my sharing will help or hinder the person's walk, or I am unsure of how to present it. I pray for opportunities to share, or words from God, and when they come up I share and when not I don't. It's a matter of discernment I guess. But I do like the idea of being more open across the board, and maybe starting with the fullness of my beliefs right away? I don't know!

:cloud9: I've found that when I'm supposed to share in season, it's like I CAN'T shut it up in my bones anymore! It just flows out. Other times, when I've tried to bring it out, I might as well talk about the weather for nothing comes out "right". I've learned the hard way to shut my mouth sooner rather than later, in those seasons.  :laughing7:

That's interesting! It's like during the times of sharing you are a conduit, and the valve is switched to "on" and other times it's "off" because He knows what the person is ready for/needs to hear in that moment.

[Cardinal]

I hadn't thought about it like that, CHB.

I don't hold back because of being ashamed: when I hold back it's because I am not sure if my sharing will help or hinder the person's walk, or I am unsure of how to present it. I pray for opportunities to share, or words from God, and when they come up I share and when not I don't. It's a matter of discernment I guess. But I do like the idea of being more open across the board, and maybe starting with the fullness of my beliefs right away? I don't know!

:cloud9: I've found that when I'm supposed to share in season, it's like I CAN'T shut it up in my bones anymore! It just flows out. Other times, when I've tried to bring it out, I might as well talk about the weather for nothing comes out "right". I've learned the hard way to shut my mouth sooner rather than later, in those seasons.  :laughing7:

That's interesting! It's like during the times of sharing you are a conduit, and the valve is switched to "on" and other times it's "off" because He knows what the person is ready for/needs to hear in that moment.

Exactly so.....men are like trees and they all have their own season, and we have to learn to flow with the Spirit to be instant in season and out....blessings....