men of God that deny universalism

[Abigail]

Hi everybody,

I'm struggling with some questions that have to do with my personal life/relations regarding to UR.

Recently our family was in a group of believers for two months. Most of them I regard as spiritually more mature than I am. The leader of the group has healed many sick and even raised the dead. Those people do not believe in the salvation of all, though they hardly ever mention hell. I feel there are and have been a lot of godly people, that know God and walk with Him and yet do not believe the salvation of all.

For me this is always puzzling. The idea of never ending misery for a lot of people always brought me a sense of hopelessness, or superiority, and especially a failure to trust (because the assurance of your salvation lies in your own yielding). I cannot understand people can walk closely with God, trust Him and yet believe this. I suppose it's mostly a doctrine parked on a shelf in the back of their minds, but I do believe it always affects one's relationship with God.
And I do not understand why people do not hear this message from the Lord, since they know to listen to Him so well in other areas. I did not feel free to share the larger hope when I was there. Being in a group of very confident and mature people that would (I knew) not agree with me or even tell me I believe a heresy, made me very insecure. I knew I would feel intimidated and starting to doubt my own heart and what God has been speaking to my spirit because of that, so I did not share.

I wondered if others experience this and what you have learned. I feel part of it has to do with being able to spit out the pits and not throw away the whole cherrycake. I tend to take in everything or throw away everything. I do not know very well how to be open, receiving from the Lord through others and at the same time keeping junk out.

[Andrew]

Hi Abagail

I'm in the same boat as you. It doesn't make sense to me why the ET Christians are the ones who are involved with all these miracles unless maybe ET is true. If it isn't true shouldn't UR Christians be the ones going on missions raising the dead? One possible explanation is that ET Christians actually hate sin and are therefore in the truth while UR Christians are lukewarm on sin and maybe they are deceived. I really don't know but I still feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle if UR is true.

How was UR revealed to you? Are you 100% sure that UR is true. Did you feel like God wanted you to tell these people about UR?   

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Abigail]

Hi Andrew,

Here is a post in which I describe how UR was revealed to me:
https://tentmaker.org/forum/welcome-central/new-from-belgium-with-(long)-testimony/msg184472/#msg184472

Yes, I am sure UR is true. Sounds weird, because I just said I would doubt if every one said something else. It's more a feeling like you have a spoon and a whole group of people says it's a fork. You start thinking something must be really wrong with you! When you're out of the group (pressure) you just know it's a spoon.

The moment I felt closest to God when I was there, was one morning He put a song in my heart that I didn't know very well. I looked it up, sang it and it was like light flooded through the veils I had been carrying lately and again convicted me of the unconditional love of God. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXqijT68zQE

This part spoke to my heart:
For your glory, you will draw all men
As your love and grace demands

I again realized that the salvation of all is not just a doctrine, to me it is so much about Who God is, and my only stable foundation of trusting. I felt again urged to really meditate on this more, and not just accept is as a doctrine and park it in the back of my brain. Because I have done that and I realized my faith was weakened.

I'm currently reading Christ Triumphant on the Tentmaker. It makes actually clear that UR is not soft at sin at all, because sin is not allowed to exist for all eternity as ET christians teach, but is being dealt with. So I don't think that is really an issue. To me miracles are not a proof that everything the person doing the miracles says is from God. I've seen people who did miracles in Jesus' name but also had major character problems or big missers in what they taught.
I think I just feel intimidated by people who seem to have a certain spiritual authority and tend to assume they 'know everything'. While actually we all know in part, so maybe I've just another part. I wish to be more confident and less intimidated.

[Andrew]

Thanks for your reply Abigail. I read your testimony and it gave me some more hope. You seem sincere. If you don't mind me asking what was your born again experience like? Did you feel like you crossed over from the kingdom of darkness  into the kingdom of Light? - did you speak in tongues? - any info would be appreciated.

Also I was wondering if your ET believing friends ever give you prophetic words concerning your life? because if they did and it didn't mention your belief in UR then it would be a strong indicator for me that UR is true.


Thanks

Andrew 

[Abigail]

Hi Andrew,

I grew up in a church where most people did not seem to have a living relationship with God. As a teenager I felt very attracted to the handful of people that did have a more real relationship with God. When I was twenty, I was very aware I was missing something. I felt it might have to do something with the Holy Spirit, since our church had nothing to do with the Holy Spirit. So when one of the young men in the house I was boarding announced they had meetings about the Holy Spirit in their church, I invited myself to join him. The first night in that church I was aware that the people over there had something I did not. Yet I could not find it. I went forward and they let me say sinner's prayers, which I repeated, but it made no sense to me (as a Christian that grew up without the concept of new birth, and learned to pray 'forgive our sins' this was just another prayer). The next day I went into the woods and cried out to God to give me what those people had. That night I went to the church again. It was actually extremely charismatic, what I don't really like, but nevertheless I was very open. The guest speaker started preaching and it was as if everything he said was about my life. I had never experienced such a thing. Afterwards I went forward, still other people came and made me say sinner's prayers, which was very frustrating to me since there was no life in it. Than the young man from the boardinghouse started praying in tongues for me. I started to cry out to God from the top of my lungs (it was very unusual for me to do so, being raised in a traditional church where everybody sits quietly in the pews). I cried to God for help like a little child. An older man came to me and talked to me. He explained very simple that my life was like a car, and if I would let Jesus take the driver's seat. Somehow that childlike picture really spoke to my heart and I cried out to God to take that driver's seat (I added that I was afraid I would take the seat back, but the man assured me I always could just say sorry to the Lord and let Him drive again). From that moment I felt like a new person. I felt God (actually religion) had just been a tiny part of my life, but now God filled my whole being and was my purpose. To me this experience had nothing to do with hell, since the church I grew up in taught that I was saved from birth (being chosen / predestined because my parents were and I was baptized as a baby). So thankfully I never struggled with fear of hell as a child. To me it was all about God being my Lord and Father. Later I have struggled quite a bit because I was so hungry and took in everything, I also took in people's errors, like legalism, conditions to God's love, faith as something you try very hard to produce and the teaching of people being lost when they don't make a choice in time. So my newborn life had to grow and still has to grow so much, and I've often been sidetracked, confused and held back. The teaching of people being lost especially started to bother me when I had children, as I wrote in the link in the other post.

As for your other questions, yes I do speak in tongues. Thanks for reminding me, since I often forget to use this heavenly language!

As for prophecy, they did not speak about my future, yet sometimes speak into my life and never mentioned UR.

Abigail

[jabcat]

 :2thumbs:   :dsunny:

[Andrew]

Thanks Abigail. Your testimony is very inspiring. IMO I think the sinner's prayer can be effective if you put your heart into it. I was about nineteen when I first said it and nothing happened, and then when I was twenty-eight I said it again but was willing to give my life to Jesus, and that's when everything changed.   

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[Abigail]

Thanks Abigail. Your testimony is very inspiring. IMO I think the sinner's prayer can be effective if you put your heart into it. I was about nineteen when I first said it and nothing happened, and then when I was twenty-eight I said it again but was willing to give my life to Jesus, and that's when everything changed.

Amen, I believe that too. We people have a tendency to make a method out of a revelation and trust in the method instead of being led by the Spirit. That doesn't make the prayer itself bad.

[Andrew]

Hi Abagail
When those believers spoke into your life - were they accurate? Did they ever speak things that they could have not known? This to me would be good evidence of UR since you said they didn't mention UR.

Thanks

Andrew

 

[Abigail]

Hi Andrew,

No, they did not really speak prophetic in the meaning that they said things they could not know.

Your questions make me more aware of what I'm struggling with. It is actually the fear of men. The struggle to seperate the pie from the pits. I feel I either have to swallow everything, or throw everything away. In this group for me it was actually not the ET/UR difference that bothered me most, but more the difference in lifestyle choices.  I somehow find it hard to receive some things and let other things slide off me. Especially in evangelical settings I feel not free to make choices, to think, to be different.

I recognize my own way of reasoning in your questions and also in other questions you posted on the forum. I think you cannot build your faith on other people's experiences. Jesus said that some people would say to Him: Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' On the other hand He says miracles will follow the believers as sign. I think a miracle is not a proof that everything the one through whom God works does or believes is perfect. I have seen pastors who have healed the sick and had people being touched by the Spirit, but in the same time bringing people under the law by their teaching about money. Or law and grace.  Paul warned that the people should not believe another gospel, even if 'we or angel from heaven' would bring it. To me that speaks a lot about experiences people might have, you cannot build your life upon that.

When you build your faith on other people's experiences, you will one day be convinced of UR because you heard a wonderful testimony. Another day you hear a hell testimony and you're convinced about ET. You will be going to and fro all the time.

I believe the best you can do is stop reasoning and cry out to God. Cry out like a child to the Father and just keep asking your questions to Him. I asked Him that when ET was true, than to give me peace and joy about it, and trust instead of fear and torment, because I believed that His truth would produce that. Be very real with God in pouring your heart out to Him.

I believe there are some very good resources on the tentmaker that cna help you, like Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ.

[jabcat]

Paul warned that the people should not believe another gospel, even if 'we or angel from heaven' would bring it. To me that speaks a lot about experiences people might have, you cannot build your life upon that.

I believe the best you can do is stop reasoning and cry out to God. Cry out like a child to the Father and just keep asking your questions to Him. I asked Him that when ET was true, than to give me peace and joy about it, and trust instead of fear and torment, because I believed that His truth would produce that. Be very real with God in pouring your heart out to Him.

I believe there are some very good resources on the tentmaker that cna help you, like Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ.

I was thinking about this thread earlier.  I think (for me) it's been one of the best in a long time.  Really good questions and things to think about.  *I also appreciate the recognition that true men/women of God may vary in some sincere [not just being intentional deceivers] "non-essential" doctrinal understandings, but still be "men/women of God".

So my thoughts were; even though it makes sense that people who believe the "right things" should be a good example/reinforcement, still, we can't really make a firm/final decision on what we believe based on that.  What if only 3 or 4 people (a tiny remnant) knew the truth about a matter?  Would there being so few make them wrong?  What if only 1 knew the "right thing" for awhile (Noah)?  I DON'T think that typically happens, but it's just a point to consider and compare to the whole.

This topic has been troubling for me, because I see a LOT of what I would consider shady characters that are extremely loose with their theology (trashing the scriptures, outright denying them [except the parts they like], and twisting things almost beyond recognition sometimes.  That REALLY bothers me.  However, I can't let that mean to me that UR isn't true.  I've gone to God about it multiple times and He keeps reassuring me.  Also, I think it's important to try to cut through religion and try to understand as best as possible what the original intent and meaning of scripture was, without all the middle ages baggage/interpretation.  That done, I think the scriptures describe something besides eternal torment.

Well anyway, very good discussion and I'll butt out and let you carry on.  Just sharing some thoughts that the thread has brought to mind.   :dsunny:

Blessings.

[Abigail]

Don't butt out, Jabcat :-) I love to hear your thoughts.

When you're talking about what bothers you, do you mean UR people that really get of track or christians in general?
I remember when God first revealed UR to me, and to my brain it still was an heresy, I browsed the internet. I found some ugly stuff that almost drove me away from UR and I think a lot of people associate that stuff with UR. It was things like: Jesus was not God, but an angel or just a man or something; people using UR as an excuse to live very immoral lives etc.; or people being just very philosophical/brainy without a lot of scripture. I am so glad I found Tentmaker, since it not only convinced my mind, but also resonated with my spirit.

Some articles and books here help me see that UR is absolutely not soft on sin! The book Christ Triumphant is very clear about that, and also the series 'The Judgment of the World' on the website Merciful Truth.
UR is not about 'itching ears' where people often are afraid of. In Paul's time THE big issue was living by grace vs law. The ones rebuked were those that wanted the gentiles to keep the law instead of trusting the saving grace of God (that probably sounded too good to be true). I think the attractive, 'itching' part is that law makes people trust in themselves, giving them pride and selfrighteousness instead of childlike dependance. The same with UR/ET: trusting GOD who saves, or trusting yourself (either of being chosen - of which you would find proof in your holy lifestyle, or of your own faith). I think those two issues (law vs grace, ET vs UR) are very related.

[jugghead]

I myself do not see it as law vs grace, but law and grace working together as one.

This is what I wrote about in "Tidbits of Jugghead"


It a bit long, but it is what I have come to understand.

my  :2c:

[bushy]

HI Abigail,
I really enjoyed reading your life story. Some of the things you have been through sound like you are Hannah Whitall Smith the 2nd. If you haven't read about her, you can find it somewhere on Tentmaker. Thanks for sharing your story.

[Abigail]

I myself do not see it as law vs grace, but law and grace working together as one.

This is what I wrote about in "Tidbits of Jugghead"


It a bit long, but it is what I have come to understand.

my  :2c:

I see what you mean. I think writing 'law vs grace' is indeed not the right contrast. I meant more: saving yourselves through works / adding something to Gods work vs total grace.

[Abigail]

Looking back, I think it wasn't so much about UR. I'm just personally struggling with being in a group with a very confident leader. I don't feel free anymore to differ in opinion / lifestyle. I desire to love all men, yet when I feel intimidated or pushed in a certain direction, I get into fear instead of love.

It's also more a general question... why can we (all christians, miracle working leaders included) see some things very clearly and hear God very clearly about certain parts, and it is possible to not know Him in other areas? It might be because we need each other, to all have our part and to get to know Him together.

I just don't always feel free to give my part when I feel it is not or will not be received. I start doubting myself (especially if I see things differently than people that look spiritually way more mature than me), what God spoke in my own heart and in the end I feel very estranged from Him. Feels like other people become kind of mediators between God and me instead of brothers and sisters. This might be largely my own weakness and might not even have to do with them (except for being very confident/convincing in expressing opinions). I just struggle to be part of the Body / Church. To be receiving, but not loosing my own heart. To follow God instead of men, but still be open and humble to receive. 

[marie glen]

Hi Abigail :girlheart:    ..All I know is my own walk. I didn't find God or even come to the Lord in a church. And for me it's been a solitary walk. I chose to study and seek and grow on my own with the Lord. So even though your issues aren't my issues, I can still relate! As I am involved online, where exists all the same things.

It IS ex-tremely strange and curious that people - brothers and sisters (!) can know the Lord and learn of Him., yet believe in (the pagan, un-biblical) 'hell'. It's actually quite strange we get so many things wrong period.. or there wouldn't be so many different takes on His return.. His kingdom.. etc, etc.. including after this life things. When the Lord prayed we'd all be as one. Like He and the Father are one. And all one with them.. Which I have to assume means "all" shall come to think alike - which is of course according to His thinking (reasoning - logos which means "reasoning expressed in words").

So usually I am able to take peace and joy in that. That in the 'end' only Truth will remain standing and every untruth, falsehood and lie can only fall shattered, broken ...and fade away.

My other coping mechanism (lol) is reckoning myself dead for the sake of the Lord.. self and self interest crucified with Hum.. so that ultimately, if I were the only person on the planet to perceive UR/CU, as far as it impacts self, really doesn't matter, because my joy is in Him, and in the Father.. And they aRe Truth!

Lately I am trying to remember to read this Psalm aloud every day - :gsmile: :cloud9:

Psalm 91
1 He/she who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, "He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust."
3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.
7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward (results) of the wicked.
9 Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
10 No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.
14 "Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation."

[marie glen]

I was thinking about this thread earlier.  I think (for me) it's been one of the best in a long time.  Really good questions and things to think about.  *I also appreciate the recognition that true men/women of God may vary in some sincere [not just being intentional deceivers] "non-essential" doctrinal understandings, but still be "men/women of God".

So my thoughts were; even though it makes sense that people who believe the "right things" should be a good example/reinforcement, still, we can't really make a firm/final decision on what we believe based on that.  What if only 3 or 4 people (a tiny remnant) knew the truth about a matter?  Would there being so few make them wrong?  What if only 1 knew the "right thing" for awhile (Noah)?  I DON'T think that typically happens, but it's just a point to consider and compare to the whole.

This topic has been troubling for me, because I see a LOT of what I would consider shady characters that are extremely loose with their theology (trashing the scriptures, outright denying them [except the parts they like], and twisting things almost beyond recognition sometimes.  That REALLY bothers me.  However, I can't let that mean to me that UR isn't true.  I've gone to God about it multiple times and He keeps reassuring me.  Also, I think it's important to try to cut through religion and try to understand as best as possible what the original intent and meaning of scripture was, without all the middle ages baggage/interpretation.  That done, I think the scriptures describe something besides eternal torment.

Well anyway, very good discussion and I'll butt out and let you carry on.  Just sharing some thoughts that the thread has brought to mind.   :dsunny:

Blessings.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

I have sometimes been open about my beliefs, and, for the most part, it has caused division between myself and many Christians I know. Non-Christians do not care about my theology, so, they just listen and perhaps, comment.

I was once where they are now. I guess we must all travel our own journey. As Christian Universalists, we believe that, eventually, all roads will bring each of us home. It is a lonely journey in some ways, but, that is not important. Seeking truth is important; seeking God's face as it says in Psalm 27. I am fortunate enough to have some dear folks, who believe, too, and that is a wonderful gift.

Jesus said that He came to bring division, and may it begin. We cannot allow ourselves to fear....but, just keep walking with the Lord.

When you are really discouraged, remember that Mr. Fred Rogers was a CU, too. That always centers me, again.

I wonder if he would still be as popular if most people knew that?

D.

https://youtu.be/QPwd_TQpsHY  The God who Stays, by Matthew West.

[Abigail]

Thanks for all your replies. I don't know Fred Rogers (but I'm European). I think the same applies to Abraham Lincoln?

I just read back something that Charles Slagle wrote at the end of his booklet Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ concerning this topic:

Ask the Lord to grant you grace to:
...
- not make understanding Christ's total victory a requirement for fellowshipping with your Christian brothers and sisters - whatever you do!
...
- remember that, by God's astonishing grace, many Christians who do not completely share your understanding of Scripture - nevertheless - know God's heart, perhaps better than you do! So avail yourself of every opportunity to be blessed by your praying, Christ-honoring brothers and sisters. You need them and they need you!

Abigail

[jabcat]

Thanks for all your replies. I don't know Fred Rogers (but I'm European). I think the same applies to Abraham Lincoln?

I just read back something that Charles Slagle wrote at the end of his booklet Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ concerning this topic:

Ask the Lord to grant you grace to:
...
- not make understanding Christ's total victory a requirement for fellowshipping with your Christian brothers and sisters - whatever you do!
...
- remember that, by God's astonishing grace, many Christians who do not completely share your understanding of Scripture - nevertheless - know God's heart, perhaps better than you do! So avail yourself of every opportunity to be blessed by your praying, Christ-honoring brothers and sisters. You need them and they need you!

Abigail

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Patinak]

Thanks for all your replies. I don't know Fred Rogers (but I'm European). I think the same applies to Abraham Lincoln?

I just read back something that Charles Slagle wrote at the end of his booklet Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ concerning this topic:

Ask the Lord to grant you grace to:
...
- not make understanding Christ's total victory a requirement for fellowshipping with your Christian brothers and sisters - whatever you do!
...
- remember that, by God's astonishing grace, many Christians who do not completely share your understanding of Scripture - nevertheless - know God's heart, perhaps better than you do! So avail yourself of every opportunity to be blessed by your praying, Christ-honoring brothers and sisters. You need them and they need you!

Abigail

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

This thread is important to me because, as I wrote in a post on another thread that I opened recently...I'm struggling to want to tell a close Christian friend about my beliefs, not to convert her to CU, but because I feel that I'm not being honest about myself to her, especially when she brings up theology and I keep silent. But I feel that bringing it up will, at least initially, cause division. Am I being cowardly by placing our friendship over what I feel is the truth? I would like to think that I am keeping quiet because it may cause her undue confusion: she may stop believing I am a "true" Christian and therefore not value my counsel, or she may become confused about her own beliefs, and she's a part of a church she's been with since a child and is strongly faithful. The church is very much hell preaching and legalistic, in many ways. Like Dandelion said, most of my Christian friends rejected me, or at least the UR message, when I've shared it in the past, and most of my non Christian friends would listen and be intrigued at a message they'd never heard before about Jesus, but ultimately I've not converted anyone yet, ha. My mom was the only one who seemed to listen and was very open to the idea, but still held onto a belief in hell, at least a temporary hell (I never pressed her to tell me her actual beliefs).I am ok with that I suppose.

One reason I'm hesitant to share is that I don't know the best angle, and it can take a lot of seeking, praying, and reading before someone is able to even entertain the idea of UR, let alone drop hell completely and belief in ultimate restoration. So one conversation is really not enough time to cover the scope of it all, and because of that it's usually rejected outright, and then what is left is a division in a relationship, with no positive fruit produced.

Here's a thought regarding the men (let's say people) of God who believe in hell producing good fruit such as healings as you allege. If you analyze their every aspect, I'm sure there are parts of their life/ministry/behavior that are not producing good fruit. Just from personal experience and talking and reading, there is some disconnect happening that will manifest itself in their teachings or their interactions and behavior. Anyone who believes in hell will have some bad side effect no matter how subtle, whether it's fear, other-ism, judgment, anger, or indifference. Yes they may have faith in other areas to produce positive effects, but this area will still drag them down and not allow the fullness of love/faith/trust/peace to be in their lives.

[rosered]

 
  I want you to know Abigail ,
  I have all but given up trying to reason with folks when it comes to  religion .
I personally believe   that anyone whom has  come to understand UR  in the slightest  bit of wisdom , believes   it is all God and all about GODS  HOLY SPIRIT   and His amazing grace  ....  though the WORD .

by allowing room for spiritual growth and making mistakes  along the way , both life and death are found in   the WORD OF GOD 

death to some things that needs to die in us , like religious pride   and comparing one to another and  respecter of persons  and thinking anyone's sinful nature  is not as bad as yours ...   
  and the new life in believing in the power of God  to sustain us all  . not just a few , but ALL ......

For me at this time in  life ,    I have learned   God has given the world a  short  time   ''of vanity '' for its desires to met and dashed  , we see these examples all the time  , in the real world now as well as  in the bible  ,  I see King Nebuchadnezzar  of a good example of that  .

I see Job also as a prime example   also    this of  course of   judging  what one sees as  a right  spirit and wrong spirit . 

  the bible is plain about the spirit of the world being in error /sin and the HOLY SPIRIT  being the only  means  of escape  ever made  in the old and new testament   , this anointing    is the Christ  in you the hope of glory ...

the name Jesus CHRIST  is the standard   that all of us  that have been taught of Gods HOLY SPIRIT  are   being measured by  in my opinion .

Jesus Christ IS THE LOVE OF GOD MADE KNOWN for  FORGIVENESS OF SINS   .

  the world lies in error  and  is anti Christ   by this very spirit of  sin  and missing  the mark of the calling to hear and be healed , I do believe  with all my heart that  , being born again is the healing    and the  curse is   the famine for hearing the WORD OF GOD 
Never has the bible  been more readily available and easily  accessible   as in all the times past  and yet   sin continues  to  prove  this fact , in my own opinion .

  Gods Word is being  made known and true .

  I personally have come to the conclusion that  if one  wants to overcome the world  , one has to'' get over themselves ''.

  that man of sin  wants to be like God  or God like but  fails the test because the pride of life  has them thinking all wrong , as if if they are someone special   and above others or the LAW OF GOD  and that is to Love God  first and  love others the same as they do their own selves and opinions / judgments .

This to me is the carnal [death ]  and earthly sensual and devilish type thinking  that they have it all figured out and are wiser than GOD IS ??!!  and certainly   smarter than all the people are .  King Neb ruled over his kingdom as a god  , but was brought down like a man of sin and error   to the stump of nothingness , like an animal  or beast   whom always takes what it wants and  preys on the innocent . forcing  and   ruling like the  evil spirits do  and call it  God .

  But to me just proves how far from Gods Spirit  they truly are  , depart from me you worker of iniquity/lawlessness ,  I never knew you .
But they will get to know God though their sinful state  and erroneous thinking  . Everything the world offers will be empty and worthless  and not satisfying   , they will not be content  , but restless   and wandering  seeking peace and finding none til they come to the end of themselves .

I believe that  until you come to the knowledge of the truth and that is  , we are all at GODS MERCY   and always have been  and learn to wait on the Lord and be content with your portion   that  Gods amazing grace has given you  and learn to appreciate the fact  that all will  come  eventually  to the same conclusion ......  this is a UR statement, because God is reconciling the world to Himself .  2 Corth 5  regardless of the death in thinking and ruling many hearts still   wavering to and fro  .
I  Believe   that even when the physical body dies   , there is still a lot of Spiritual growing to be done still .... till there is no more death  for GOD  to reconcile with .
GOD IS LOVE and the love of   ALL Life  itself .....   :HeartThrob:    for me ,at this time , believe  and trust His ways are perfect and  will accomplish this  mighty feat .  in the mean time we have to have peace with  God and all mankind  as much as we have in us to hold on too in hope , till there is no more evil  at all to contend with again .