Moral dilemmas

[shorazorblade]

Moral dilemma meaning:
"A situation in which a difficult choice has to be made between two courses of action, either of which entails transgressing a moral principle".  :Pray:

Is it ever right to shoot someone?  :eek:

What if there was a classroom full of children and a gunman entered the classroom with a gun and started shooting at the children.  Would it be right to shoot the gunman?  :Chinscratch: Or if he shoots off one arm do we 'turn to him the other also'?

I believe that everything should be judged upon it's individual merits and for that reason it's difficult to make a 'right judgment' at times.  (1st COR 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart..."
Ahh...There it is see? - 'The MOTIVES of the HEART'...
Also 'one person's faith allows them to eat only bread' and all that...So perhaps what is a 'sin' for one isn't for another? 
Can sometimes an 'evil' be done for a greater good? (In this case killing the gunman to save the lives of the children). 
Does God use 'evil' for a greater good? (Book of Job is a good example?).

I'd like to hear others' thoughts on this.  :HeartThrob:

And...MY MAIN QUESTION IN ALL OF THIS...
What would Jesus have done in the gunman situation?     :dontknow:
No being able to leap in front of the bullits...No raising the gunman back to life after disabling him...  The only choice he has is the same one we have...Does he kill the gunman to save the children...or not.

Thank you.  :URWelcome:

[DanielB]

The problem with many of these sorts of moral dilemmas is that they are often false dilemmas where each answer aside is shot down with you can't do that aside from the two answers in the mind of the person presenting the dilemma from kill or do nothing at all about the evil. BUt it is a false dilemma. I am not saying that you have a bad motivation, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of course, but you are not being consistent with yourself. I am going to critique what you said but please don't misunderstand my tone as argumentative(in a bad way).

You are being inconsitant because you said yourself that situations must be judged case by case, but you do not allow this when you have these unrealistic restrictions in mind. These questions are difficult for a pacifist partially because it would be difficult to know the best thing to do a specific situation or in general, even if we were there and had a lot of time to think about it, but it is also artificially difficult for a pacifist because of all the restrictions required to hold up a false dilemma.

Another problem with moral dilemmas is that I think they are potentially psychologically if not spiritually unhealthy to think about or at least to decide on, because some part of us has to imagine doing an evil in order to do so. It has that negative effect on me at least.


So what would Jesus do? No doubt he would have some wise and creative or miraculous solution that would not require him to kill his brother/child. But we are not Jesus and we do not have the wisdom or the faith to do what he might do.

I can't say what I would do in a violent situation like that. Maybe I would freeze up or run like most people as much as I would like to think I wouldn't but maybe not since I am not very afraid of death. Maybe I would do something that I wouldn't do if I had more time to think. I am a pacifist or something close because I don't believe in killing but I think non-lethal force is an option. You really can't know what will or won't work in such a situation.

[DanielB]

Also, maybe lesser evils are just that. Evil. We do face moral dilemmas between two or more evils in real life, not necessarily because there is no better option, but because we are blind or lack a "mustard seed of faith" or so on. What if in doing the thing that we find least evil, we are still guilty? What if the right thing to do is to pray for a miracle but we don't believe the prayer will be answered or to do something that only a more righteous person would know to do? What if philosophers are wrong when they say "we can't be guilty if we literally knew of no better alternative". Philosophers and theologians might not like this sort of thinking because they think that would put us in danger of hell or worse, losing the illusion of our own righteousness and right to look down on others!   :winkgrin:

But as a pacifist I don't go around condemning people that would kill such a gunman nor would I wish that some murderous rampage had continued. I am not a pacifist because I think that those guys just need a hug, if they are killed they got what was coming to them, but I don't think I have a right to kill a person, especially when I deserve no better. It is my duty to love such people and to not assess the worth of one of God's children over others, nor to consider anyone expendable.

[shorazorblade]

The problem with many of these sorts of moral dilemmas is that they are often false dilemmas where each answer aside is shot down with you can't do that aside from the two answers in the mind of the person presenting the dilemma from kill or do nothing at all about the evil. BUt it is a false dilemma. I am not saying that you have a bad motivation, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt of course, but you are not being consistent with yourself. I am going to critique what you said but please don't misunderstand my tone as argumentative(in a bad way).

You are being inconsitant because you said yourself that situations must be judged case by case, but you do not allow this when you have these unrealistic restrictions in mind. These questions are difficult for a pacifist partially because it would be difficult to know the best thing to do a specific situation or in general, even if we were there and had a lot of time to think about it, but it is also artificially difficult for a pacifist because of all the restrictions required to hold up a false dilemma.

Another problem with moral dilemmas is that I think they are potentially psychologically if not spiritually unhealthy to think about or at least to decide on, because some part of us has to imagine doing an evil in order to do so. It has that negative effect on me at least.


So what would Jesus do? No doubt he would have some wise and creative or miraculous solution that would not require him to kill his brother/child. But we are not Jesus and we do not have the wisdom or the faith to do what he might do.

I can't say what I would do in a violent situation like that. Maybe I would freeze up or run like most people as much as I would like to think I wouldn't but maybe not since I am not very afraid of death. Maybe I would do something that I wouldn't do if I had more time to think. I am a pacifist or something close because I don't believe in killing but I think non-lethal force is an option. You really can't know what will or won't work in such a situation.

Hi thank you. :HeartThrob:
I don't see what is false about my questions? Or inconsistent?
Very simply...Either you take the shooters life to save the childrens' or you let the shooter shoot the children (and he might shoot you too no doubt).  :dontknow:  If the shooter is going to shoot you too and you do nothing to stay alive...What about your family who will grieve for you? Should you not consider them?  Don't you have a priority to stay alive for them?

I think it's good to think about such scenarios because it prepares us for the real world.  As I always say...
"Everyone loves each other until they have to work with each other 9-5" lol!.
In other words it's easy to 'love' until we actually are in the 'guts' of it...day in day out working with intolerable, evil, rude, impatient people etc...Something i don't see a lot of self proclaimed 'spiritual' folks do.  The point is that daily many of us are forced to make these 'types' of dilemma choices albeit in far smaller ways mostly.

I dissagree with you...I think that it's a great thing to prepare ourselves for eventuallities that could occur.
How for example would a person feel if they didn't act and instead let the shooter shoot all the kids and did nothing though he could have stopped it and afterwards he regrets his choice? - He sees all the misery he could have prevented as the killer flees the scene to kill even more innocents.

I believe it's good to think how we would react so that when a situation occurs we are ready...Mentally prepared.  There is nothing wrong with that.

What I'm asking is simple...(and it's not unrealistic because things 'like it' happens every day (in small ways in our own lives))..."But he who is faithful in small things is faithful in big things" is my point.
To use another big example...Should we let men like Hitler (if indeed he was as evil as history books lead us to believe) run rampant and continue to offer him the 'other cheek', allowing him to murder us, rape us, murder our children, destroy our country even ourselves etc...Or...Do we dispose of him? 
...Do we sacrifice one life for the good of the rest?  (Didn't God not spare His own Son) (Yet you call it 'evil')?.

There is nothing inconsistent about anything I've said. 
If not for our 'war heros' we might all be speaking German right now? 
Indeed; being Scottish, if it were not for men like Robert Bruce and Wallace we would have all been bred out by the English long ago...and all our 'Scottishness' (traditions/lingo/people etc) would all be dead and gone. 
It's a fact of life that people have to 'fight' sometimes for what is 'right'?

Perhaps by instinct you would 'do the right thing' in such a situation. 
But...What is the right thing? - Or is that in the eye of the beholder? - (I believe it is). 
I believe we can kill the gunman (for the right reasons) and out of love for the children (and out of love for the sinful sick gunman) even.... It depends how we look at things?
Perhaps we could even NOT kill the gunman (your choice?) (and let things run their course) without reacting...(gunman shoots all the kids) and we can still be 'moral'? (Depending on our heart)...But I think weighing everything up...We know what would need done and what we should do?

You say it is unhealthy to think of such things because you have to imagine doing an evil (to work out how you would react in such a real situation)...But is it really 'evil' to kill child murderers?
I believe yes AND no because it depends on the motive. 
If we kill anyone 'for fun' then it's not right. 
If we kill someone (reluctantly perhaps) to save a classroom full of kids...or an entire country...a whole planet...Is that evil? - I don't think so.  I'm sure the children, their parents (could be you?), the law etc (not that the law is a proper authority on right and wrong lol) wouldn't think so either. 
Would you thank such a man for saving your child's life...Or would you despise him for doing 'evil'?

So what would Jesus do? No doubt he would have some wise and creative or miraculous solution that would not require him to kill his brother/child. But we are not Jesus and we do not have the wisdom or the faith to do what he might do.

Now you are being unrealistic.  And I did ask not to bring special powers into this.

I realize these are hard questions...But that's the point and it's what being a 'leader' is all about. (Making tough decisions).
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that...Sacrifice.

Anyway thanks for your response!   :HeartThrob:

[shorazorblade]

What if in doing the thing that we find least evil, we are still guilty? What if the right thing to do is to pray for a miracle but we don't believe the prayer will be answered or to do something that only a more righteous person would know to do? What if philosophers are wrong when they say "we can't be guilty if we literally knew of no better alternative".

What if NOT killing the gunman (and saving the childrens' lives) is the real evil?  What sort of person could let that occur??? - Watch a maniac kill a classroom full of children and do nothing about it?

But as a pacifist I don't go around condemning people that would kill such a gunman nor would I wish that some murderous rampage had continued. I am not a pacifist because I think that those guys just need a hug, if they are killed they got what was coming to them, but I don't think I have a right to kill a person, especially when I deserve no better. It is my duty to love such people and to not assess the worth of one of God's children over others, nor to consider anyone expendable.

But if you 'loved' this child killer...Surely killing him BEFORE he murdered the children would be better for him and his soul before God?  Surely his death is for the benefit of all?
Is it wrong to put an injured horse out of it's misery?  In other words...Is sometimes delivering death a 'good' thing?

Jesus said: "He who HATES his brother is a murderer".  Now...we don't have to HATE the killer (just like we don't hate our horse...We LOVE our horse...that's WHY we are putting it out of it's misery by enacting a quick death upon it)...But surely we can prioritize the children's lives over his?

There are different ways of looking at these things isn't there? 
It's all about motive really...The heart behind it all I think.

[jugghead]

In my opinion, what would Jesus do? It is an example of Him praying in the garden before His own death saying, "Not my will, but your will be done."

Simply because, if the gunman ended up killing children, under which covenant do we enter into: law or grace? And by it, of what spirit do we become, do we become an unforgiving spirit under law or do we become a forgiving spirit under grace?

Evil circumstances reveal our spirit and the spirit that is revealed reveals which covenant is prominent in our lives; law or grace?

What would Jesus do? I believe He would drop to His knees and pray. And no matter what the outcome of the situation, whether the gunman killed or not, Jesus would forgive Him for His actions, and the reason for this is because of His words upon the cross "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

But again, this is just my opinion

[DanielB]

First, please know that I am not judging or accusing you of wrong. I used to agree with the sorts of things you are saying. Second, please do not assume that I am a pacifist because I have a weak stomach or that I value my personal feelings over the lives of others(but I am not offended by the insinuation because it will take more than that to offend me  :winkgrin:).

You say that situations either possibly need to be or must be judged individually because all situations are different. Did I understand you correctly so far? I said that you were being inconsistent(that your hypothetical was inconsistent) because you then went on to impose unrealistic restrictions on how a person is able to react, which is to say that you are forbidding them from thinking about how to judge the specific situation. Your example was flawed because in real life there would be plenty of options outside of the dilemma of "kill vs doing absolutely nothing". Have you ever watched MacGyver? It is an unrealistic and flawed show, but I think MacGyver's approach of when it is right to use force and to what degree is consistent with my own philosophy. No, I am not a liberal(not in the american or leftist sense of the word at least), far from it and I internally roll my eyes at some of the liberal bias in the show. In real life, MacGyver's antics would sometimes have lethal or permanently disabling results(punching/whacking people in the head hard enough to knock them out and so on) or often just not work, but it is at least a good example of how a pacifist does not have to choose between killing and doing nothing.

One alternative answer to what to do about a gunman would be to try to tackle or rush or fight him without killing him. You could say that wouldn't work but how do you know, has it never been done? My point is that there are choices other than killing or apathetically doing nothing. I could just as easily present you with a dilemma.

"A crazy man hands you a gun and says that you must either kill your brother or your sister. You must choose one or the other. If you don't, you will be responsible for both being killed". Before you respond that you would do something other than kill one of them, you can't because I am arbitrarily saying that you can't OR you could try other things but let's just assume that any alternative action would fail and you would be responsible for both of their deaths... See what I mean? Such dilemmas are unrealistic because in real life you would have other choices and you wouldn't be responsible for the actions of some crazy villain presenting you with such a dilemma, that person would be responsible unless you consented to their actions. I don't sit in judgment of people that would nor people that have shot dead mass shooters or dictators, I just think that I would choose some other course of action if I was acting consistently with my beliefs.


War is a different story. I am not utterly convinced of pacifism in the case of a mass shooter(just mostly convinced), but I am completely convinced when it comes to war. I would not judge soldiers that wanted to fight the Nazis out of a desire to save lives, I can respect that motivation and bravery regardless of whether it was the wisest and most christlike thing to do. There is no way of knowing what would have happened if Hitler was assassinated. Maybe a worse Nazi would have taken his place, he wasn't the most evil-hearted Nazi(at least it seems unlikely that he was considering how many Nazis there were). But wars are never just because they always drive soldiers on each side insane and drive people to atrocities and there are always tons of non-combatants that get murdered on each side or even intentionally targeted. If a person wants to prevent murder, rape, etc then war should be avoided because it will just lead to more of it. In WW2, the allies ended up murdering tons of innocent people with bombings or rogue soldiers or maybe even intentionally by leadership for all we know. No, I do not hate the soldiers of the Allies, and not all of them are guilty, I am sure that many of them must have been indignant at atrocities being committed regardless of whose side they are on(and honestly, the same could probably be said for many deceived Nazi soldiers).


You said "I realize these are hard questions...But that's the point and it's what being a 'leader' is all about. (Making tough decisions).
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few and all that...Sacrifice."

I used to believe this, but please consider the following. Isn't that how the Judaist leaders justified murdering Jesus? https://biblehub.com/john/11-50.htm

Also, what do you make of God's conversation with Abraham over Sodom? God was not willing to destroy the horrifically wicked Sodomites(of whom everyone was a rapist and likely a murderer among other things), he was not willing to violently put that evil to an end if it would mean killing just 10 decent people along with them! I would be so bold as to say that God would not have destroyed Sodom if one innocent was killed along with the guilty, but even if we say that God was willing to sacrifice 9 innocents to put an end to the evil of Sodom, that is still a much higher standard than any side had in WW2 or any nation has had in war. But God himself was not willing to sacrifice innocent lives to save more lives or to prevent evil, and God has more right to do that than anyone. The Sodomites(I mean the inhabitants of Sodom) made the Nazis look like beautiful angels, and yet God(who has a right to decide who lives and dies) was not willing to bomb their city for the sake of 10 or less innocents. So how could war be justified when it leads to things like bombing cities? The Nazis and the Axis armies committed horrible atrocities and bombed allied cities(so I am absolutely not taking their side), and the Allies bombed German cities that were inhabited by children, babies, and all sorts of people that resisted the Nazis as well as people deceived by Nazi propaganda. So war isn't justified when it is fought like that but it is always fought like that.

[shorazorblade]

In my opinion, what would Jesus do? It is an example of Him praying in the garden before His own death saying, "Not my will, but your will be done."

Simply because, if the gunman ended up killing children, under which covenant do we enter into: law or grace? And by it, of what spirit do we become, do we become an unforgiving spirit under law or do we become a forgiving spirit under grace?

Evil circumstances reveal our spirit and the spirit that is revealed reveals which covenant is prominent in our lives; law or grace?

What would Jesus do? I believe He would drop to His knees and pray. And no matter what the outcome of the situation, whether the gunman killed or not, Jesus would forgive Him for His actions, and the reason for this is because of His words upon the cross "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

But again, this is just my opinion

My honest thoughts on this last night before I read this today was that I feel that Jesus (without any 'super powers') would probably gather the children together and comfort them whilst praying for everyone (including the gunman).

BUT...if the choice HAD to be made..."Shoot the killer to save the children" or "let the killer live and the killer shoots the children"...
...What would Jesus do then??? 

[shorazorblade]

First, please know that I am not judging or accusing you of wrong. I used to agree with the sorts of things you are saying. Second, please do not assume that I am a pacifist because I have a weak stomach or that I value my personal feelings over the lives of others(but I am not offended by the insinuation because it will take more than that to offend me

?????
I'm asking questions here that's all. (For a bit of fun and conversation).
There is no judgement or accusing or or 'will to offend' here so please get that out of your head! 
I'm asking questions and I'm going to defend my questions because I beleive in them unless someone can change my mind...and I want you to defend your views too!
I don't dislike anyone for disagreeing with me! 

You say that situations either possibly need to be or must be judged individually because all situations are different. Did I understand you correctly so far? I said that you were being inconsistent(that your hypothetical was inconsistent) because you then went on to impose unrealistic restrictions on how a person is able to react, which is to say that you are forbidding them from thinking about how to judge the specific situation. Your example was flawed because in real life there would be plenty of options outside of the dilemma of "kill vs doing absolutely nothing". Have you ever watched MacGyver? It is an unrealistic and flawed show, but I think MacGyver's approach of when it is right to use force and to what degree is consistent with my own philosophy. No, I am not a liberal(not in the american or leftist sense of the word at least), far from it and I internally roll my eyes at some of the liberal bias in the show. In real life, MacGyver's antics would sometimes have lethal or permanently disabling results(punching/whacking people in the head hard enough to knock them out and so on) or often just not work, but it is at least a good example of how a pacifist does not have to choose between killing and doing nothing.

I understand what you mean.
But...What if there was no other choice? - That's the purpose of my questions!  And oftentimes we don't have lots of choices ...Believe it or not!  Sometimes we even 'think' we have but in reality don't when we get down to it!

"A crazy man hands you a gun and says that you must either kill your brother or your sister. You must choose one or the other. If you don't, you will be responsible for both being killed". Before you respond that you would do something other than kill one of them, you can't because I am arbitrarily saying that you can't OR you could try other things but let's just assume that any alternative action would fail and you would be responsible for both of their deaths... See what I mean? Such dilemmas are unrealistic because in real life you would have other choices and you wouldn't be responsible for the actions of some crazy villain presenting you with such a dilemma, that person would be responsible unless you consented to their actions. I don't sit in judgment of people that would nor people that have shot dead mass shooters or dictators, I just think that I would choose some other course of action if I was acting consistently with my beliefs.

Again I understand but...
If the gunman said:
"Kill either your brother OR sister or I will kill both of them" and that was your ONLY choices...
Sure you could 'try' other options! 
...You could try running away...but you can't. 
You could try praying...And nothing happens? 
You could try reasoning with him...And that doesnt work and so on...
...So back to the original question...what does one do when that is the only option?  :Chinscratch:

Many people have difficult choices to make...Day in and day out...
A doctor has to decide on life and death when he turns off machines keeping people alive for example...He can't leave the switch 'in the middle'...He has a decision to make...eventually.... 
Parents donating an organ for their sick child have a hard decision to make eventually (once they have tried all the other 'safer' options)...
Sick people have to make decisions for their health where there isn't any 'in-between' choice to 'hide' in. 
For example I heard today of a man who had the 'choice' to stay paraplegic or take a risk on an operation that could possibly kill him. - Not much of a choice eh? But that's his choice...Risk death and possibly still remain disabled or just stay disabled for the rest of his life.
Sure the man could pray...I'm sure he does...I'm sure he has tried everything but to face the choice he is faced with.  And is it right for him to risk his death to overcome his disability or would that be 'murder' in some people's eyes?

It seems like you don't want to believe that sometimes in life hard choices have to be made?  Sure...All of us would choose the safest option...But sometimes there isn't one and that is the purpose of my questioning here.

I used to believe this, but please consider the following. Isn't that how the Judaist leaders justified murdering Jesus? https://biblehub.com/john/11-50.htm

"I lay down my life willingly...nobody takes it from me".
"He is the atoning 'sacrifice' for our sins.
"...Who spared not His own son".
"Gave HIMSELF as a randsom".
"Lamb slain from the FOUNDATION of the world"....
"God directs our steps"...
Etc...

Also, what do you make of God's conversation with Abraham over Sodom?
God was not willing to destroy the horrifically wicked Sodomites(of whom everyone was a rapist and likely a murderer among other things), he was not willing to violently put that evil to an end if it would mean killing just 10 decent people along with them!

Yes but Abe had to whittle God down to 10. 
God in the story was ever-ready to destroy it right away lol...
Also...Personally If I had been Abe I'd have tried to whittle God down to 0...Especially if I got Him down to 10 because I'd be thinking: "Why stop there?"
And you know what? - I reckon God would have listened. - But that's a subject for another day lol!

And what of the flood? - An 'evil' for a greater good surely?

And Jeroboam?
"For the Lord saw the affliction of Israel, which was very bitter; for there was neither bond nor free, nor was there any helper for Israel. The Lord did not say that He would blot out the name of Israel from under heaven, but He saved them by the hand of Jeroboam the son of Joash" (2 Kings 14:26-27).
...You need only to look at a verse like 2 Kings 13:11 to see an example of how Scripture associates the name of Jeroboam with evil.

Book of Job? (Devil/Evil) used for a greater good?

Anyway...I still reckon it's all about intent...The motives of the heart. ...For the good of all.
I'd personally rather that someone with the intent to murder (out of an evil heart) be killed (out of love) to protect the innocent at the end of the day, in the same way I believe it would have been better if Myra Hindley had been killed before she started murdering and molesting children and burying them in her local moors. 
A hard choice? - Not for me...Even if it meant 'sacrificing' my good nature to become a 'curse' to save the children. 
To me, it would be my duty to protect the innocent; especially if I was employed at that school where the shooter struck.  Teachers and anyone in authority over children should be responsible that way i believe (to protect them).   
Sometimes people say they would 'pray' in such a situation (with a shooter) and no doubt if a swat team arrived as they prayed and shot the killer dead; that (to them) would be 'an answered prayer' (someone else doing the 'dirty work' on there behalf basically)...
...I don't believe that is fair nor right and I couldn't live with myself if I just sat back and watched a maniac slaughter children.

I think the real problem is when people make a wrong judgement and simply judge people based upon their actions without knowing why and how things came to that.  'Walk a mile in someone elses shoes' and all that. 

Only that can be the answer. 
Thanks.  I found what I was looking for lol.




:HeartThrob:

[rosered]

   I believe if they live or die they are the LORDS  to do with as he pleases with His own things , we are not our own ...

  If they live it is to witness of Gods glory on earth as it is in heaven ,  that is to save ...

  to me heavens glory is  SALVATION  and cannot even begin to be imagined   what is in store for all , for HE IS THE GOD OF LIFE though salvation ..

death being the last enemy to overcome  , they are home free at at last . 

the gun man having a carnal mind is death  working  not only in himself but bringing death on others also , fear and torment  as well as  killing the mortal body .
  but as the truth states ,do not fear those whom destroy  the body , but fear the  ONE  whom can destroy the body and soul /life substance  in gehenna   
  this is the correcting and chastening   fire of a trial  that brings a fear of the LORD , WHICH  is the beginning of WISDOM  WORKING   in   the soul and  is joined  by the   Holy Spirit  to cleanse  us from all forms of  death / or the sin of error as rebellion against   GODS  desire /will than none should perish   but come to repentance  .

every knee will bow  and every tongue will confess  to the LORD JESUS CHRIST  [the divine  instrument  of GODS glory and judgment AS HIS WORD /Sword given the power  of the HOLY SPIRIT  to purge  and  purify any death and darkness at all  in them .
romans 14
10Why, then, do you judge your brother? Or why do you belittle your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written: "As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before Me; every tongue will confess to God." 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God....

Isaiah 45:23
By Myself I have sworn; truth has gone out from My mouth, a word that will not be revoked: Every knee will bow before Me, every tongue will confess allegiance.

Philippians 2:10
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

To me  His WORD & His Holy Spirit are ONE and the same to me  = TRUTH  , one cannot be without the other .and there is no death at all in them .

my Father and I are ONE  , Being conceived of the HOLY SPIRIT and taught  , and corrected and learned obedience  though the things He suffered  ,as a human as well as a son of God  was perfected   by the HOLY SPIRIT   and will bring many  other sons to the same glory  of HIS FATHER  , Him being the first of His kind and example to follow after .[making everything new come to life  out of death  by the Holy Spirit ]
this is why we cannot speak of any blasphemy  against the Holy Spirit  for it is Life of Itself  and death cannot  exist in Its presence ever .

I just do  think mankind  can comprehend this , till it is given of the LORD  HIMSELF to know it .

So for me ,the answer does not lie in the  example given so much , but , more of what God raises to new  life from out of death .

and the only ONE whom can and does . Give higher thoughts and wisdom from these experiences that are His ways and thoughts  of clarity  though the chaos .   For HIS GLORY , giving the tree of Life , to be made known to all  still eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil .

two trees and two ways of being made known to all , both serve HIS  purpose  to me , conviction starts by the Holy Spirit ,   as correcting  as well as comforting  giving  new life from what dies  and is called evil  in His sight .

till   evil or rebellion  is no longer a problem  ,  for me  , the boundaries are contained  by GOD as to not let any evil  exist past the
  old heaven  or earth  that many still are walking in and  learning obedience though by suffering  and are still captive to, till they are let loosed from it . the truth will free us all  in their own order and way  , I believe .
as we can see now even more and more evil is  being made known openly  , but Gods grace  excels the more .

GODS grace is amazing and can only be expressed by those  whom are experiencing it  though the gift of  faith in Him

As the HOLY SPIRIT  IS the giver of all the precious gifts  though His   TRUE Word , we can take comfort in knowing and sharing  his gifts of great grace with one another now   for strength  to endure  till  the end .

  simply I believe  HIM at His Word , and do suffer learning to obey His voice   one way or the other  , till we all be completed /perfected .

[marie glen]

I would not have a fear of being judged, as it IS a difficult thing - but my righteousness is the Lord’s reckoned to me. Which to non believers, for example, that attitude would not be understood.

I would shoot the shooter.. After all how desperately in despair or deep hatred, is an individual that wants to kill children.. so the choice, to me, thinking of those children.. and the ones who love them.. parents, siblings, grandparents.. So yes, as for me, I’d actually take advantage someday of the conceal carry license hubby had us both get.. but that’s been like a year and no practice in using thus far.. I don’t much care for guns, or crowds! BUT, in such a situation, I believe I could shoot the shooter, hopefully before anybody else died.

Here’s another “what if”, if I saw someone trying to abduct a child, I would do all I could to prevent it. Not lethal in case the child was yelling this is not my parent and lo and behold they were! And said child was super acting out. Yes my mind can conceive of strange scenarios like that. Oye.

Now if it was just me in danger, my weapon of choice would be talking.. lol. But a loved one, or someone innocent and vulnerable, I would seek to defend them. My thoughts (and prayer) would be for the innocent, not the guilty.. And Jesus said all would rise out of their graves.. doers of good in the resurrection of life and doers of evil in the one of judgment “after the thousand years-Rev.20”. Jn.5:28-29. And Peter said that judgment is one of “correction” - greek word kolazo.. 2 Peter 2:9 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-9.htm - word #2849

WwJd? idk. I do know in one gospel account before going to Mt.Olives park that last night, He said if they hadn’t a sword sell their cloak and buy one.. was this looking forward to their travels along dangerous roads later, some time after His returning to the Father? I do know it wasn’t for His defense.

Best case scenario with a weapon would be as a preventative! Dissuading another of nefarious, highly harmful motives.

But in the situation of a mass killer, yep, if in my power I would use lethal force to prevent it. I’ve seen too many movies where someone just wounded still does their evil! :faint: ...Many times they shoot theirselves last of all.. So first seems like a better option (to me). I actually think I might not panic til all was over.. But who can be sure..? I would be praying for strength, if it came to that scenario. After praying for all by praying “Help! Lord help!

[marie glen]

P.S. - about the flood, if we have a garden and NEVER weed it, soon enough there will be NO garden. In context - "every thought of all was to only do evil". Not only is it in no way merciful to let that continue, but humanity would have self destructed so VERY long ago. And thus many He is creating would never be born. Which of course is not His plan.

[shorazorblade]

...but that's been like a year and no practice in using thus far.

Hey maybe you'd get lucky and just shoot him in the testicles or something :rolllol: :HeartThrob:  That would work!

And a voice boomed "Bally good shot Marie!"

my weapon of choice would be talking.. lol.

Marie from the pages of text i'm still reading of yours I'd never have guessed!   :laughing7:  I'm joking  :HeartThrob:

You know what Marie...Even if it was wrong in anyone's eyes ...Even in God's eyes to take out the killer...I still would.  I'd be willing to pay any punishment due for the sake of saving the children tbh. 
I could not 'justify' not saving the children in my mind and leaving them for dead if that was my only choice.
I believe I would be answering to my own CONSCIENCE from my understanding of God (acting with knowledge (CON=with, SCIENCE=knowledge).

[marie glen]

     :thumbsup: ...and :laughing7:

[shorazorblade]

P.S. - about the flood, if we have a garden and NEVER weed it, soon enough there will be NO garden. In context - "every thought of all was to only do evil". Not only is it in no way merciful to let that continue, but humanity would have self destructed so VERY long ago. And thus many He is creating would never be born. Which of course is not His plan.

I agree...often in the bible 'purgeing' is the way forward...For the good of all.

If we don't get rid of weeds they strangle the flowers. 
We don't WANT to kill the weeds. 
In fact... we wish there were NO WEEDS!!! (Annoying things)...
...But the reality is there that THERE ARE WEEDS and leaving them does MORE HARM THAN GOOD. 
As Christians we 'take no pleasure in the 'death of the weed' obviously :laughing7: (and no doubt if we are over 40 our backs don't thank us either)...But...For the good of all it has to be done eventually.

Thanks for this input Marie.  You gave me a new perspective on this.
:HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

 :thumbsup: And by hard experience, I have learned if you wait too long to pull the weeds.. oh my. What a jungle to rescue the flowers and veggies! I often have to travel shortly after planting and when I get home.. wow. Jungle. So now prevention is tops! lots of light blocking mulch! I prefer carpet strips for in between rows. :thumbsup:  Nothing better than an orderly thriving garden.

Here’s a weird thing I read, warning topic change.. a witness after Hiroshima bombing said it looked like the ppl remains were in bundles. Which of course reminded me of how the Lord said, at His return, or thereabouts, the tares (weeds) would be gathered into bundles to be burned. :mshock:

Which brings me back to your topic at hand.. Thinking of God’s choices, like just HOW do you create genuinely able to think and reason beings, AND, keep paradise/perfection intact? :Chinscratch: Perhaps you have to educate all (rather thoroughly) concerning good from evil. In this school of hard knocks? But would we ever be convinced otherwise than seeing for ourselves the fruits of evil/not good/not perfect. Not perfect being a very real bottomless pit of potential. And one highly contagious disease? So when it comes to choices and wwJd? Let choices other than His exist and run their (ruinous) course?  (For the most part.) Which gets Him lots of accusation these days.. Or never create thinking beings? Ever? [Haha, there I go with the words again!] But is this all preventative? Like we are “ALL in heaven and Earth” being innoculated against evil/the wayward/away from God/Life/Perfection path? After all, if the wage/result of sin - imperfection/“missing the mark”-translated sin, is death.. how futile to wander away from He Who IS life?!

And both trees in the garden.. realization of two paths/choices of life? :blah: :soap: Maybe during “the judgment” (age) I could be a speaker! :banana: :Peace2:

[jabcat]

With God's grace and help I'd try to take out the MURDERER too.  I also believe it's a matter of conscience (and accurate understanding of scripture).   :thumbsup: 

I don't believe in aggression, either personally or as a nation.   I believe in turning the other cheek/living at peace with all men AS MUCH AS IS POSSIBLE.  However, I also believe the Bible teaches do not murder "You shall not murder (Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח ; lo tirṣaḥ), not a general "do not kill".   I believe some killings are justified, mainly the protection of the innocent.  Also, government-related, for the order of society.  A related example of this is Romans 13:4 "For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

I know many are trying to sanitize (explain away) many things in the OT, but I believe God killed many people according to His omniscient will, including some in the NT as well.  His angels are warriors.  Again, this is not a call to unnecessary violence, live at peace as much as possible.  But as with all things, season with salt and follow Him as best we know how.   :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen Jabcat! :thumbsup: ..and great verses!

[shorazorblade]

Thinking of God's choices, like just HOW do you create genuinely able to think and reason beings, AND, keep paradise/perfection intact? :Chinscratch: Perhaps you have to educate all (rather thoroughly) concerning good from evil. In this school of hard knocks? But would we ever be convinced otherwise than seeing for ourselves the fruits of evil/not good/not perfect. Not perfect being a very real bottomless pit of potential. And one highly contagious disease? So when it comes to choices and wwJd? Let choices other than His exist and run their (ruinous) course?  (For the most part.) Which gets Him lots of accusation these days.. Or never create thinking beings? Ever? [Haha, there I go with the words again!] But is this all preventative? Like we are "ALL in heaven and Earth" being innoculated against evil/the wayward/away from God/Life/Perfection path? After all, if the wage/result of sin - imperfection/"missing the mark"-translated sin, is death.. how futile to wander away from He Who IS life?!

I know you don't like hearing about ndes but they interest me and what you said about learning good and evil reminded me of what a woman said during her nde. 
She was told (on the 'other side'):
"Nobody could have shown you this...you had to learn it for yourself". 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j05DpHSIbsw

The point is that...Sure we rebel against bad experiences but without them we don't know what is a good experience.  -It's all 'learning' for our benefit but hard to see at times.  I like Ecclesiastes which talks about God giving us an experience of futility to humble us.  Really...How else could we appreciate anything? Ever notice how sometimes we only really appreciate something when it's gone? 

I hate killing anything...and I  to not even kill flys or midges lol. (He wouldn't harm a fly that man!)  (true!!)... 
But...They attack us...They eat us and sting us and our children...they infect us...They pollute our food...They torment us...and...Well...They MUST be stopped somehow!

I do try to get rid of them without killing them...I have bug catchers etc. - I hate killing anything. 
But if it's warranted...Like that tick that burrowed itself in my stomach a while back when I was camping...Well that thing is history.
Some things don't do us or anyone else any favors and sometimes there is only one way (I couldn't get that tick out of me 'without' killing it). 

[shorazorblade]

With God's grace and help I'd try to take out the MURDERER too.  I also believe it's a matter of conscience (and accurate understanding of scripture).   :thumbsup: 

I don't believe in aggression, either personally or as a nation.   I believe in turning the other cheek/living at peace with all men AS MUCH AS IS POSSIBLE.  However, I also believe the Bible teaches do not murder "You shall not murder (Hebrew: לֹא תִּרְצָח ; lo tirṣaḥ), not a general "do not kill".   I believe some killings are justified, mainly the protection of the innocent.  Also, government-related, for the order of society.  A related example of this is Romans 13:4 "For he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer."

I know many are trying to sanitize (explain away) many things in the OT, but I believe God killed many people according to His omniscient will, including some in the NT as well.  His angels are warriors.  Again, this is not a call to unnecessary violence, live at peace as much as possible.  But as with all things, season with salt and follow Him as best we know how.   :2c:

I agree with that.  Some great points there.  Killing would be an absolute last option.
I'd just like to add that if someone's conscience prevented them from killing the child killer...It wouldn't be my judgement call to make whether he acted rightly or not and his heart could still be right (or perhaps even more right) with God than my own. 
I wouldn't know the true answer to that until 'The Lord comes'.  I think the only other that would know would be the person involved...Again... "their conscience bearing witness".

[marie glen]

Amen.. no one has made me judge.. lol! A good lesson - for all - on its own! :gsmile:

[jabcat]

Good thread folks :)  Many good points.  I liked this too from rose;

"I believe if they live or die they are the LORDS  to do with as he pleases with His own things , we are not our own ...

  If they live it is to witness of Gods glory on earth as it is in heaven ,  that is to save ...

  to me heavens glory is  SALVATION  and cannot even begin to be imagined   what is in store for all , for HE IS THE GOD OF LIFE though salvation .."

[shorazorblade]

As Rose said: "I believe if they live or die they are the LORDS  to do with as he pleases with His own things , we are not our own ..

It's nice that...That we are God's property...Loves property!    :Peace2:
If if anyone ever has a problem with us we can just point to the Creator.  :declare:
:mock: "He made me...Oh...And good luck winning an argument with Him".  :laughing7:

To me heavens glory is  SALVATION  and cannot even begin to be imagined   what is in store for all , for HE IS THE GOD OF LIFE though salvation .."

...The 'desires of our hearts'...  That inner longing of something being missing all my life...fullfilled...That feeling of not belonging here...All our friends...family together...That little old beat up cottage in the woods I want (I don't want a mansion)...."Eye has not seen nor ear heard".  No...I can't even imagine how good it would all be.  :HeartThrob:

[DanielB]

The thing about Jesus telling the apostles to buy swords is actually more in favor of pacifism if anything. When they said that they bought only two swords Jesus said it is enough! Enough for what? Who the heck are they going to fight off with two swords? lol He told them to buy them purely in order to fulfill a prophecy. And when Peter used one of those very swords was used in defense against injustice, Jesus rebuked him, said that those who live by the sword die by the sword, and healed the person that was wounded. If anyone should be using that as a proof text, it is pacifists. :)


To clarify a few things about my beliefs.

1. We are not to be peaceful toward violent people out of some delusion that they deserve it, but out of mercy as we have been shown mercy and in obedience to Jesus. Evil-doers ought not complain or pity themselves when they get what is coming to them.

2. Many of us are guilty of murder even if we have never killed anyone, we can commit murder in our hearts by wishing death on someone(however much the may merit it). Many of us also merit death and we should never kill captives out of some misguided ideas about justice or to be consistent, we should execute people for many reasons beside murder(adultery for example, which would mean just about everyone according to Jesus) and perhaps kill ourselves while we are at it, otherwise we are hypocrites.

3. Again, I don't believe in "letting" some maniac kill people. We should try to stop it of course. Failing to stop it does not mean that we "let" them kill anyone, that blood is on their hands. Bystanders certainly have a duty to do something, but it is the aggressor that does the evil out of their own will.

4. I don't believe in having partiality towards evildoers. I don't have more sympathy or concern for the aggressor than I do for the victim, generally the opposite is the case and I tend to be more apathetic towards aggressors(not that it is right but I hear about that crap so much I am just used to it).

5. Pacifism often calls for more hard decisions, more personal sacrifice, and more courage than violence does. Pacifism actually always requires demands more courage, whether it is correct or not. That does not mean that every self-proclaimed pacifist is courageous or than believes in violence, many would resort to violence to protect themselves. It doesn't generally take much courage to advocate for pacifism(I am sure it will lead to persecution for many pacifists but not so much in America at least). I get tired of people assuming that pacifists base our beliefs on warm fuzzy feelings or personal sensitivities, it takes a stronger person to be a true pacifist than to resort to violence. It demands more courage of an arachnophobe to spare a spider, than to kill it. It takes more courage or strength to be vulnerable than to kill. 

6. Not all people would want to be defended with lethal force, a true pacifist would not want to be defended with lethal force or whatever level of force that they believe is wrong. Maybe when we are all fully sanctified, people will look back and have remorse that they chose violence or maybe pacifists will look back and think that we ought to have used violence.

7. We have no way of knowing how we might react in such a situation. Many people think they would act in some courageous and dutiful way, but most people who think that freeze up or wait for someone else to do something(not necessarily out of cowardice or apathy, many people are just too overwhelmed by the situation to act). For all we know, I might be the person that puts 10 bullets in such a psycho while you run away or maybe you would change your mind in that situation and choose some courageous but non-lethal response, or maybe we would all just be onlookers. We can't know until we are faced with such a situation and we likely never will be.

8. I take the position of pacifism because I think it is most consistent with the teachings of Jesus, not because of personal feelings against violence. It was counterintuitive for me and against my nature to take the pacifistic stance, but I believed and still do that it is most consistent with scripture. Of course, there are verses that seem to contradict it just as there are verses that seem to contradict universalism or the divinity of Jesus or the use of violence or so on. I am not accusing anyone of not valuing scripture.

9. The most dangerous things about moral dilemmas or "thought experiments" or hypotheticals is that they are so often used, consciously or unconsciously, to cause confusion or doubt in moral principles by appealing to rare, unrelated, or extreme(if not totally unrealistic) cases.  So much faulty thinking comes from appealing to fringe cases, like a lot of "progressive" philosophy.


For example, we could argue about whether it is right to lie to save hypothetical jews from hypothetical Nazis but if it is right to lie in such a situation, that does not mean that it is right to lie whenever we rationalize that we can do some good through doing so, it certainly doesn't mean that we may lie whenever we wish.  Extraordinary cases don't set precedent for every day or even slightly less extreme cases. Exceptions don't change the rule. My beef with these kinds of hypotheticals is that they are always about protecting helpless children or protecting your family from crazed rapist-murders that bust into your house and yell out their evil intentions. Well, there is a decent case to be made for shooting to kill in those situations but what about more common situations? What if some dude sneaks into you house with a ski mask on when you are home alone? He might simply be a thief that would immediately flee or surrender if discovered, which is no worse than a liar or an ogler of women but we don't every sinner dead out of fear! What about war? There is a big fat line 100 miles thick between defending helpless children from some crazy mass shooter VS war kills helpless children on all sides, rapes people on all sides, leaves soldiers and civilians on all sides with terrible psychological wounds/trauma, fuels hatred and vengefulness, turns decent people evil, corrupts many people, etc. It fuels basically every kind of sin.


I believe that however we help, don't help, neglect, or harm a person, we have done the very same thing to God himself, as if that person was the incarnation of God. If God incarnated as a fallible human but it somehow went terribly wrong and he became a murderer, would it be right to shoot that Incarnation dead in defense of someone else's life? Maybe, but I think not. My belief is that we should treat every person with the same dignity of the incarnation of God because God loves and knows all people and suffers whatever we suffer and is comforted or fed whenever we are comforted and fed and so on. This does not automatically lead to pacifism but it does mean that even shooting a murderer has a terrible gravity to it as if we have shot God dead, each person has incomprehensible dignity because they are loved by God and whatsoever we do to anyone, we have done it to God. It is difficult to explain how this works in regards to responding to sin but we all know that sometimes it benefits a person to be held accountable and it is often more loving to discipline or correct than to let something slide. Basically, it just means that we should treat people with love and what we think is in their best interest. If what I am saying in this last paragraph sounds far fetched, I am basing it off of a combination of scripture, logical reasoning, and some pretty compelling visions about Jesus I have heard from testimonies and we can discuss it further but maybe that warrants a different thread. (And to be clear, I am not talking about pantheism nor that "we are God" or any of that enchanted nonsense, I detest pantheism)

[Ross]

John 18;36  " Jesus answered,
                                           My kingdom is NOT of this world;
                                           If My kingdom were of this world my subjects would be fighting to prevent Me being handed over
                                           to the Jews;
                                           but as it is, My kingdom is not from here."

Phil 2 points out that Jesus took on the form of a servant to the point of death.

Jesus did not go around stopping bullies, the priests, in His ministry.
The worst culprits of violence through history have been church leaders- to the point of the shocking crusades.
The people who carry out these nasty things will be before God, just like we are. They will be accounted BY HIM.

1 Cor 4;5 " So then stop passing judgment on anything before the time, before the Lord comes.
                 He will bring to light the hidden things of darkness and will disclose the motives of the heart."

I.M.O if we are near a situation we will be guided as to how to correct/stop if anything is MEANT to be done by us.
The end-times will be nasty. Claiming peace, but so far from the truth.
In need of total repentance lead by God, NOT man.

I.M.O this is all about showing us why Christ is absolutely necessary to rid us of these bad habits.
Plus each in his appointed time is a statement- not a speculation.