Instantaneous conversion at resurrection?

[marie glen]

Though some believe this concept, I never have, believing the learning process during repentance is surely very important. But now I am having second thoughts, BUT only in light if this verse - "ALL in the tombs" (graves) " will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of said graves/tombs) "those-who-have-done-good, in the resurrection of Life, and those who have done evil in the resurrection of judgment" (and as we know, kolazo/CORRECTION. (John 5:28-29)

What do you think?

[jabcat]

I think it means resurrection 'for' or 'to' judgment, not specifying any particular time frame.

I looked it up in The Christian Bible 1991 (extremely literal version) and it says "for judgment". 

Verses that comes to mind, "few stripes..many stripes", and "won't get out until you have paid the last penny".   :2c:  :)

[darryl]

i believe there must be justice, some form of punishment for the vilest of evil depraved people...like the English guy who traveled to Malaysia and while in a position of trust in the church did unspeakable things to dozens and dozens of babies and children ( a red line i would NEVER  cross, by the way ) ...i cannot believe men like him will be let off scot free....he will experience and totally realize the pain and damage he caused before he is redeemed, in my belief.

[WhiteWings]

It's all in the symbology of LoF.
Back then and even today the refining of gold requires heat and sulfur to remove the dross.
Sulfur binding with impurities is a chemical reaction causing smoke.
And even today the purity of gold is tested with a touchstone.
The touchstone is what's now translated as torment.
A correct translation by today's standards. But before 280AD long after the lasty writer of the OT died it simply meaned testing of gold.

Point being, isn't it striking that God is called a refiner and LoF exactly describes how a refiners crublicle works?

If you care to look/read/study the whole NT is exploding with references to refining gold and silver. For example the core meaning of God testing faith has is related to testing if the a coin is real or counterfeit gold.

All of that can be read on this page: http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/LoL/index.html

For those who want more proof I've put links in the article that quote a lot of very well established lexicons.


Ok, my view on the question at hand is summarized as follows. But don't take the summary to literally because some things can't be really summarized in a few words. At least not by me.
LoF is the law itself, it judges you. It's God's essence. Because not a single person commited exactly the same crimes in his/her life all get a taylor made judgement with the purification that comes with that judgement.

I also believe the proces can start on this side of death....

[WhiteWings]

Though some believe this concept, I never have, believing the learning process during repentance is surely very important. But now I am having second thoughts, BUT only in light if this verse - "ALL in the tombs" (graves) " will hear His voice and will come forth" (out of said graves/tombs) "those-who-have-done-good, in the resurrection of Life, and those who have done evil in the resurrection of judgment" (and as we know, kolazo/CORRECTION. (John 5:28-29)

What do you think?

I think it says nothing about duration or punishment.



Hearing His voice is, let's call it 'becoming Christian'.
Nobody in the Bible just became a full blown 'complete' Christian instantly.
All experienced tests and growth. Also falling back (slightly) and getting back on track.

So yes, the dead do hear His voice. They do act the right way. But I believe there is a learning curve.

But the group in the verse is "those-who-have-done-good" this may be the ones participating in the millenia rule. They already were good when they died. But even those people heard His voice at some time and then started growing.

Don't get me wrong, I believe God is able to do anything. Including converting people like Hitler into the same level of purity as Jesus Christ, in less than a split second. I truly believe that belongs to God's skill set. But I also believe that it happens extremely rarely, if ever.
But then who am I to claim that? I'm not part of the higher management. Not even of the lower management  :laugh:

:2c:

[marie glen]

I’m with you there.. I think the process of repentance and conversion is the greatest learning process there is.. I take the verse “will come forth out of the tombs” to include analogy/metaphor of how we were all dead until we heard His voice. No doubt. But mostly I take it as literal, especially in light of Revelation chapter 20’s prophecy of two separate (collective) resurrections.. which early on in the first, after Christ, millennium, Revelation and the prophets could easily be thought to be only and strictly metaphor/analogy.. But in this modern age of very possible lake of fires upon earth breaking forth - er, by man’s doings and our constant unwanted companion, war and unrest of nations.. Like Psalm 2 says “why do the nations rage” and the rage of humans against God of the Bible (and christians even traditionalists and conservatives) is so very apparent these days, that the tares would gather to an Armageddon which concludes in a lake of fire cannot be dismissed as outside the realm of literal fulfillment. Just how, would one describe a vision of all out modern capability warfare in 95 A.D. or thereabouts? Less sun light shining through.. moon reflecting red.. great rocking to and fro (Ezekiel?) so that the very stars appear to be falling.. What a great tool prophecy can be in convincing the truth of God’s Words to the modern skeptic..

And alas! Let us do our worst.. Imperfection/“missing the mark” being a bottomless pit and tartarus/deepest darkness, of potential, already quite proven by history (to some that is, some I’m sure need still more proof). In the ‘end’ the smoke of our self destruction - the only outcome possible to the path and way which course is away from God.. shall be a lesson of truth /good and evil, which smoke of shall forever rise in every memory (this lesson of life and, gulp literal death/lack of life and not being - “the wages” if God was not “the savior of all” that is.

“Dust you are and to dust shall you return” vs “surely you won’t ..die?”

But happily! “All in the graves, will hear His voice and will come forth ..some in the resurrection of life” (at Jesus’ return/appearing) “and some in the resurrection of judgment” — which Peter says is for CORRECTION/“kolazo” (on ‘day’ of judgment - 2 Peter 2:9). [Surely Rev.13:13 occurred already - in 1945.. not pinpointing an individual as so many believe, but an office.. Tho we do have many white frocked magicians with modern miracles and wonders - whose theory/prophecy/teaching seats man in the seat of God as highest power deciding good and evil - with still more up their sleeve.. but the day of expecting a wizard with a wand and a small fire is a bit outdated.. lol. If only we could totally shake off the grave clothes of false fuzzy doctrine..

:Chinscratch: Is there metaphor concerning the virgin birth? I’ve been wondering lately if that’s why when the Lord told the disciples on the way to Jerusalem that He would be beat, spat upon and killed, they didn’t understand what He was saying? Though in hindsight it’s very obvious what He wAs saying. Did they think it was analogy/metaphor? ...We live in truly crazy times.. which I guess has always been.. “Nothing new under the sun” ..just modern capability to aid in the (same old) furious pursuit.. of, and to, the literal grave. (The “dusty” one of ps.30.. the lower part of earth..
:Peace2:

[WhiteWings]

I take the verse "will come forth out of the tombs" to include analogy/metaphor of how we were all dead until we heard His voice.

You mean literally dead of dead to the truth?
In other words you believe there were many Lazarus like resurrections or is it just that many finally believed He's God's  Son, and was speaking the truth all the time?

No doubt. But mostly I take it as literal, especially in light of Revelation chapter 20's prophecy of two separate (collective) resurrections..

All 3 groups respond to His voice. What happens after that differs.

But in this modern age of very possible lake of fires upon earth breaking forth - er, by man's doings and our constant unwanted companion, war and unrest of nations.

That's whole different discussion. Does the Bible speak about things they knew back then, or does fire mean a nuclear explosion.
I think it's not about any war, big or small, modern or ancient. It's about restoration.
I'm not going to repeat all that. It's everyone's choice to (not) study the site I gave.

Likewise the fire engulfing the planets and burning up the elements is not a reference to a full scale nuclear war.
I can't stress this enough, culture, culture, culture.
Not just the Jewish culture, but the culture that was preached to.
The best example is the 7 cities mentioned in Revelation.
Look at their history. Look at what they were famous for. If you do you you'll see that the 'verdict' uses stuff from their everyday life to get the message across.

Like Psalm 2 says "why do the nations rage" and the rage of humans against God of the Bible (and christians even traditionalists and conservatives) is so very apparent these days, that the tares would gather to an Armageddon which concludes in a lake of fire cannot be dismissed as outside the realm of literal fulfillment. Just how, would one describe a vision of all out modern capability warfare in 95 A.D. or thereabouts? Less sun light shining through.. moon reflecting red.. great rocking to and fro (Ezekiel?) so that the very stars appear to be falling.. What a great tool prophecy can be in convincing the truth of God's Words to the modern skeptic..

But does it really have to about war? Why?
Ok, let's say it's war at Armageddon which is a Biblical location. Not whole earth.
666 atom bombs impact on that location. What about the good people living there?
What about the evil people living at the other side of the planet? They escape judgement.


I'll stop here because this is a fruitless discussion. I gave you my view and my site to back up that view before.
My impression is that you totally ignore what's on that site. Or you totally disagree with what's on that site. So in both cases further discussion is a waste of everyone's time.

:friendstu: