Free Will

[MusicLover123]

Which ultimately goes to this:

If we are influenced by so many things that cause us to do them(whether good or evil) are we merely puppets pulled by the strings?

Scripture still tells us to reap what we sow, so it really is a mystery the more I think about it.

[MusicLover123]

Additionally, God's will influences us IF and WHEN he chooses to do so, and "who can resist his will?"

Well, it seems like some actually can resist His will, even for a short time. For example, does not God not will any to perish? Yet people still perish.

Or Joshua being told to do something, then disobeyed(resisted His will) and was sent into the belly of a fish. He ultimately did fulfill God's will, and His will will be done.

[CST]

I've said this before...

Our will is constrained and influenced by so many things:

Our genetics, epigenetics (our genes are affected by environmental factors) our upbringing, our culture, our family, our peers, our brains (mental health etc), how much sleep we have gotten, our environment, our education, our religion, past experiences like trauma, how we are treated by others, our emotions, our stress, the substances we put in our bodies, even sugar, coffee, alcohol etc...

Additionally, God's will influences us IF and WHEN he chooses to do so, and "who can resist his will?"

I posted a study about how people were trained to feel peace within themselves and then they were positioned strategically within a war torn country and told to feel peace at the same time and during that time a measurable drop or ceasing of war, violence and crime were observed, meaning we are even influenced by those around us on a more subtle level.

Then if you believe in angels and demons or whatber they represent, that is a potential influencer.

So I believe we make choices but they are so intertwined with the above factors that we can't truly say "free" will.

In the shower today I was struck with the idea that God designed it this way so that we cannot blame ourselves or others, but instead it is "sin" that is to blame, and "sin" is a rippling effect that permeates everything which is why it is not one person's "fault" when bad things happen, rather the entire creation is missing the mark. It comes back to judging sin but not the person doing the act...judging sin meaning discerning what is and is not sinful based on if it is or is not loving God or others.

This discernment is the learning process.

But it's why the Bible states none are righteous and all have sinned and the creation was subjected to futility.

I hope this makes sense and helps.

Perfectly (as far as 'perfectly' means anything when spoken by a limited human).

Which ultimately goes to this:

If we are influenced by so many things that cause us to do them(whether good or evil) are we merely puppets pulled by the strings?

Scripture still tells us to reap what we sow, so it really is a mystery the more I think about it.

Short answer: no!

You still seem to be of the impression that the only alternative to free will is basically that the universe is running to a script that God has written before he created the universe and we now all have to follow. It doesn't, the universe writes its own script as it unfolds but the parameters of the script leave very little room for manoeuvre in what is actually produced because the story has to make sense and be meaningful to all concerned. God can see the the direction of the script and step in a change it if ever it starts going in a direction that might be really problematic or he really doesn't like but the script must work or we can't be said to be answerable for anything because our actions which e're meant to be answerable for won't make sense.

Additionally, God's will influences us IF and WHEN he chooses to do so, and "who can resist his will?"

Well, it seems like some actually can resist His will, even for a short time. For example, does not God not will any to perish? Yet people still perish.

Or Joshua being told to do something, then disobeyed(resisted His will) and was sent into the belly of a fish. He ultimately did fulfill God's will, and His will will be done.

I think you mean Jonah there. And do people perish? It depends how far the word 'perish' goes. ET proponents say 'yes they do', us UR supporters say ultimately no one does perish and that God finally gets His will which makes much more sense to us.

[eaglesway]

It is God's sovereign will that all will b saved and no one can resist His will, because He "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will"- but along the way, considering that we are predestined "according to the foreknowledge of God", and, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" yet we "reap what we sow" and can hear "well done my good and faithful servant"- or not- it is a mystery that(imo) none of the sectarian formulas can truly explain, and I personally get weary with the debate because I just dont think God, or the scriptures are all that clear about it- and I think that is on purpose.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor"

I believe conformity to Christ means a free will that always chooses love and submission to God- "the glorious freedom of the children of God". The closer we get to Got the freer we are, because "the wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we dont know where it goes or from where it comes- so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit"

The terms themselves can be deceptive and fail to fully communicate the concepts involved. I am free to walk down the street but I am not free to throw a rock through a store window, but actually I am free to throw a rock through a store window but if I do I will not remain free, I will be chastised, but if I submit to reason and order and respect and love, and conduct myself appropriately, I will remain free. All that God is doing is leading to absolute freedom which is union with Him- "For freedom Christ has set you free", so that when all have been gathered into Christ and God is "all in all"- all will be free because all will be "in Christ", "in God" and "in the Spirit"- walking in perfect love, which does "no ill" to its neighbor.

So the key to freedom from the law is not cancellation, it is revelation and transformation, and that is why we seek to "walk in the Spirit" because, the flesh profits nothing.

We are free to walk in the flesh if we want, but God will discipline us as heirs, and cause all things to work according to the counsel of His will, even as Hewill do with the whole creation after the first-fruits are revealed, in ways we do not yet fully understand because they are only alluded to with shadows of prophecies concerning the ages to come.

2 Cor 3
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

And all these things are just my opinions and personal interpretations of scripture  :dbook:

[MusicLover123]

Here is the part I am confused about. Is there a cause for everything? And if so, do those causes make us do things? Not just acting as limiting factors.

And if all these things make me do things, why am I accountable and responsible, if I can just blame all these causes?

Puppets cannot do anything without something causing it to move. Is that the same with us? Or do we do things "autonomous?" (Whatever that means.) Sure there are things that limit us from acting certain ways, but is all these things causing, not just limiting my or anyone's actions?

[CST]

It is God's sovereign will that all will b saved and no one can resist His will, because He "causes all things to work according to the counsel of His will"- but along the way, considering that we are predestined "according to the foreknowledge of God", and, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;" yet we "reap what we sow" and can hear "well done my good and faithful servant"- or not- it is a mystery that(imo) none of the sectarian formulas can truly explain, and I personally get weary with the debate because I just dont think God, or the scriptures are all that clear about it- and I think that is on purpose.

"Who has known the mind of the Lord and who has been His counselor"

I believe conformity to Christ means a free will that always chooses love and submission to God- "the glorious freedom of the children of God". The closer we get to Got the freer we are, because "the wind blows where it wills and we hear the sound of it but we dont know where it goes or from where it comes- so it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit"

The terms themselves can be deceptive and fail to fully communicate the concepts involved. I am free to walk down the street but I am not free to throw a rock through a store window, but actually I am free to throw a rock through a store window but if I do I will not remain free, I will be chastised, but if I submit to reason and order and respect and love, and conduct myself appropriately, I will remain free. All that God is doing is leading to absolute freedom which is union with Him- "For freedom Christ has set you free", so that when all have been gathered into Christ and God is "all in all"- all will be free because all will be "in Christ", "in God" and "in the Spirit"- walking in perfect love, which does "no ill" to its neighbor.

So the key to freedom from the law is not cancellation, it is revelation and transformation, and that is why we seek to "walk in the Spirit" because, the flesh profits nothing.

We are free to walk in the flesh if we want, but God will discipline us as heirs, and cause all things to work according to the counsel of His will, even as Hewill do with the whole creation after the first-fruits are revealed, in ways we do not yet fully understand because they are only alluded to with shadows of prophecies concerning the ages to come.

2 Cor 3
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

And all these things are just my opinions and personal interpretations of scripture  :dbook:

Farmers sow cereal not rocks, not shoes, cereal. People sow what they sow but in practice they know what they sow and get what they expect. That proverb is strange in that it is often taken to imply people can be unpleasantly surprised by what they end up reaping. People don't sow things and random, they sow with the intention of getting a crop of what they planet, under the proverb they can simply find they don't like the crop but being surprised by it is irrational.

Here is the part I am confused about. Is there a cause for everything? And if so, do those causes make us do things? Not just acting as limiting factors.

And if all these things make me do things, why am I accountable and responsible, if I can just blame all these causes?

Puppets cannot do anything without something causing it to move. Is that the same with us? Or do we do things "autonomous?" (Whatever that means.) Sure there are things that limit us from acting certain ways, but is all these things causing, not just limiting my or anyone's actions?

Honestly, I suspect we may have freedom in prayer. Other than that the only person who has control is God.

You are accountable because you are you, your choices are a fundamental aspect of your identity. If you made different choices you wouldn't be you. If you try to blame your choices or God causing your choices your basically telling God He was wrong to make you, which is incredibly foolish because unless you really believe your entire life would have been better had none of it happened, that you'd really have been better of not being born, then all you're doing is asked God to destroy you on the threshold of salvation for nothing. I'm sure i could express that better but there's the gist.

[marie glen]

Farmers sow cereal not rocks, not shoes, cereal. People sow what they sow but in practice they know what they sow and get what they expect. That proverb is strange in that it is often taken to imply people can be unpleasantly surprised by what they end up reaping. People don't sow things and random, they sow with the intention of getting a crop of what they planet, under the proverb they can simply find they don't like the crop but being surprised by it is irrational.

:Chinscratch: I wonder if Saddam Hussein was surprised at all when leaving his castle and hiding in a hole in the ground, etc?

Here is the part I am confused about. Is there a cause for everything? And if so, do those causes make us do things? Not just acting as limiting factors.

And if all these things make me do things, why am I accountable and responsible, if I can just blame all these causes?

Puppets cannot do anything without something causing it to move. Is that the same with us? Or do we do things "autonomous?" (Whatever that means.) Sure there are things that limit us from acting certain ways, but is all these things causing, not just limiting my or anyone's actions?

So, if we are not puppets.. and we cannot do everything imaginable like create and destroy worlds.. what does that imply?

Not puppets - I do hope we are all beyond thinking this is all some working out of God's strange fantasies of wars, genocides, fornication, and all under the sun that mankind has done.. that was more like 'the gods'.. Human idea of 'gods' being like ppl. But God "is perfect' - so genocide, wars, fornication.. cannot be His moving us like puppets.

I think we are agreed on that.

But also, we cannot do all things (even under the sun) - so we cannot be said to have total free will and will of operation..

So where does this leave us? Not puppets with no will at all... but not able to do all freely/free-will.

To me, it's just a ?question of misunderstanding what free will is..

A UR believer may say we have no free will, which the Et believer thinks means power of choice, as in no power of choice whatsoever. Which makes the Et believer think our belief is not biblical.. and dismisses UR. (Same with waay too much metaphor.. UR dismissed out of hand as non-biblical.)

So what is between complete freedom of will, and no will at all?

Or the other way for putting it -- complete freedom of choice - or no ability to make a choice concerning anything at all.

Is there no middle between these two poles?
   :Peace2:

UR is one of the groups which believe when it comes to salvation/reconciliation (and when that occurs) it is all God's choice and none of our own. Which is extremely logical, otherwise salvation, reconciliation as our choice would be earned.. as though God owes us :laughing7:

[Dandelion]

Within boundaries, which God designs, we have some choices. We have enough choices for us to learn to love God, and live in the Spirit, or to live in the material world, without the Spirit. We have enough choices for us to learn if we truly love and trust the Lord, or not. God already knows what we would do.....I think the choosing here on earth is for us. My opinion.......

I do agree that there are topics of faith, that God does not give us enough information to feel we have a clear vision of them, free will being one of them. Another one I believe to be in the same 'catagory' regarding clarity is when faith turns us from unbeliever to being saved. How much is of God, and how much are we responsible for? I think that is often the foggy, grey area that we are never quite sure about.

I am going to guess, that when we are face to face with God, and realize why we never were quite sure about those, we will realize it was because we would not have been able to properly process or fathom the connection between God and us, the way it truly is. I think it will be the kind of revelation that will make our mouths drop open, even in Heaven. We will then realize just how great our God really is, and just how dependent we are, in relation to Him. Whatever that is.....I also think that when we realize the answers, we will also know then, how to be like Jesus. We will finally see 'face to face'.

Just a hunch....... :dunno2:

D.

[marie glen]

Sounds like a great hunch, Dandelion! And I have no doubt! :cloud9:

[Andrew]

Jesus told Peter that he would deny him three times. Did Peter have the free-will to make another choice than that or does God know everything that we will do because God can see how the causes in our genetics and environment and in our heart will play out in our life.

[marie glen]

Jesus told Peter that he would deny him three times. Did Peter have the free-will to make another choice than that or does God know everything that we will do because God can see how the causes in our genetics and environment and in our heart will play out in our life.

...like strings all strung out.. His will they flow away from Him.. predetermined by their make up? Inherent qualities which when reflected in perfectness is better than when reflected in the potential  that is in imperfection.. He knowing every string's flight, journey.. working out and actions, etc.. being all knowing.

Kind of a sort of shade of what is called free will.. but what i think of as the ability to make choices - there has to be some accountability/responsibility, i think. But where choice falls completely short is the choice of when we repent and are born again of the seed Jesus in us.

So to me 'free will' is a bit of an exagerration, because of that, and because  alk are born into circumstances not in their control.. so much in life is not in our control..

Yet I think the idea that God plans every step we take - even the false ones - are all God's doing or programmed into us, to me, is an extreme and not logical. What do we learn if God is the only one acting? What value this drama of this false way? Is God proving something to Himself? Or are WE learning good from evil? And if God does all, including wars, torture, rapes.. rather than allowing, for the sake of proving good from evil.. for the sake of us understanding and knowing beyond a doubt (convinced) that the wayward way / life 'away from Him' can simply never, ever work (successfully) because HE is perfect.. and He is life. So the wayward way can only ever be tribulation/troubles, apocalypse, as in falls apart, proving true from not true. And ultimately is death/lack of Life. That's the way, I guess, it makes sense to me. I could be wrong of course, which I've gotten the impression that understanding is happiness. :dontknow: :cloud9:

The Spirit of God is "convincing the world of sin"? Greek "missing the mark". If God is life, and I can't help thinking He is, and "is perfect" (Mt.5:48) then doesn't all things HAVE to be perfect? To endure? Like a foundation natural law / iron rule (measure, ruler) that cannot be broken.. but breaks?

[rosered]

  Seems we can choose life or death and that is about the limit  of choice we are given ............

 

   I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that you may live, you and your seed

[sheila]

 :2c: choose LIFE=TOL...the only thing good you will find in TOKOGAE is GOD with His outstretched arms of GRACE..saying  come,eat

freely of the TOL. The only evil you will find in the TOKOGAE is the serpent with temptation accusation.and condemnation.

[Shev]

There is indeed a mystery to it all - Abraham sleeps with Hagar to raise up a seed by his own fleshly will...not God's will, right? But we find later in Galatians that this is all part of an allegory. So God always knew it would happen, surely?

Man clearly has a will, though not a free will. "Work OUT your salvation with fear and trembling, because it is God who works IN you both to will and to do for his good pleasure." This is speaking of believers! For we already know those who do not believe are slaves to sin, and cannot be called "free". But we see God works something IN, that is then worked OUT. Something originates in the heavenlies, to enter in to this realm through the interface that we are.

In all of this debate, which spans the centuries, I defer to Sheila and Rosered above - mankind has spent centuries thinking about will equaling choice, and choice equaling dividing between right and wrong. But this is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil! We eat from the Tree of Life - even Jesus Christ, and in Him is no obsession with choice, with right or wrong, or consciousness of sin, but rather springs of living water leaping up from a bottomless well within us.

It is all about Life!

[marie glen]

Amen.. like why was the notorious tree in the garden along with the others?

Amen! I think truth is simple - otherwise "how shall they hear"?

And of course "logos" is the source/root of the word logic..

It is curious how choice/'free' will rages on as a 'debate'.. :doh: :laughing7: :girlheart:

[WhiteWings]

We have 100% absolute free will.
So has God.

Now the facts are on the table, my question: Who's free will override the free will of the other in case the free wills clash?
:laugh:

[darryl]

Which ultimately goes to this:

If we are influenced by so many things that cause us to do them(whether good or evil) are we merely puppets pulled by the strings?

Scripture still tells us to reap what we sow, so it really is a mystery the more I think about it.

God has given us the gift of freewill but His Divine Providence is geared toward Universal Reconciliation so Free Will and Divine Providence are not at odds with each other.

[joeteekay]

We have 100% absolute free will.
So has God.

Now the facts are on the table, my question: Who's free will override the free will of the other in case the free wills clash?
:laugh:

There is no mention of "free" will in the bible. The words are not there. Yes, "free offering" is there. Also mention of our will and God's will is there. Mention of making choices is there too. But to place the word "free" in front of "will" or "choice" is reading into scripture what is not there.

Our will is "free" to think and desire anything, but to carry this out into action is not always doable because of boundaries set in place by God

We have a will but it is constrained by limitations set by God.

The difficulties arise from failure to see that man's freedom lies in the sphere of preference and desire, and not in the sphere of action. His will is free; he is at liberty to choose and plan, but God oversees his acts. Man can purpose and determine and choose, and according to his choosing he is held accountable.

Prov. 16:9 (KJV)  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Prov. 20:24 (KJV) Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Prov. 19:21 (KJV) There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

In other words, man determines all his wishes and desires, but only those which the Lord designs are carried out. Sometimes man is allowed to carry out his devices,  and sometimes not; it all depends upon whether they coincide with God's plan or not; what He can use for His praise, He allows; what He cannot thus use, He restrains.

Eph 1:11 (KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[WhiteWings]

Are you trying to refute my post or in a long winded way proving the claim I made?

[marie glen]

I think of it as allowing reasoning other than His to exist and even, for the most part, run its course. My thought is, how do you allow genuine thinking and reasoning ability.. and keep perfection/paradise (100%) intact?

[WhiteWings]

Don't worry about that.
I's sure He got an answer :-)

[joeteekay]

I agree that man has 100% free will as far as his thoughts and desires are concerned, but I do not believe those thoughts and desires can be acted upon and put into action unless they are in harmony with Gods plan. Sometimes they are and sometimes not. Two examples include the will of Saul/Paul's to persecute believers in Christ being stopped by God or the will of Pharaoh whose heart was hardened so that he would not let the people go until the last plague. So if 100% "free will" is defined as a thinking process of the mind, then I agree with you WW.