Hello tentmaker!

jo · July 19, 2019, 09:59:34 PM

Hi everyone,

I have been exploring this site since December and it has been the biggest blessing. I am 23 years old and I have always had a relationship with God but I never really thought about the "hell" part of what my church taught. But in December the idea of it completely hit me and I had basically a huge mental breakdown thinking about "what if I go to hell" or "what if my family does." I started doing research and every website I went to had a different "way" to get to heaven, which that did not help my anxiety because which way is the correct way and what do I do and what if I don't ask forgiveness for every single sin, etc.? (I honestly was too scared to pick up my bible and research for myself..) I became terrified of death and began to question everything and it honestly made me want to leave the church as a whole because the concept of hell just made NO sense to me at all.

But then I found tentmaker and I have spent several hours a week on it reading through discussions and articles. I still have a lot of things to figure out, and sometimes I still have this "the only reason I believe in universal reconciliation now is because it makes me feel better and it is not actually biblical" thought swimming in my mind, but I am working on it every day. I just bought the book "Hope Beyond Hell" and am beginning to explore that.

If anyone has any tips on how to get through this and really figure out the truth, I would love to hear. I am excited to be a member of this site and thank you all! :bigGrin:

sheila · July 20, 2019, 05:09:38 AM

Welcome Jo.Isaaih ch 40.God and Jesus are comforting his people right now.

andLuke4;18The Spirit of the Lord is on me....because he has anointed me to preach Good news to the poor..He has sent me to

proclaim freedom for the prisoners..and recovery of sight to the blind....

Isaaih49;13and51;3 :girlheart:

jugghead · July 21, 2019, 02:08:12 PM

Welcome Jo, you have so much to look forward to, in and on your journey.

One of your answers is in your statement, "it makes me feel better", which is just another way of saying, you are finding peace, (finding Christ) for Christ is our peace and when you run across the verse that says, "I did not come to grant peace but division" know this, you are already being divided (separated), separated from the old understanding by tradition (the peace in tradition) and walking in the newness of what He has done for us already.

For me, believing that UR was a possibility was the opening of my ears to hear, the opening of my eyes was when He showed me UR through His written word. And I myself believe the phrase "It (UR) is not Biblical" is the broad way of many.

many blessings on your journey
Rick

Dandelion · July 21, 2019, 03:46:06 PM

For me, I see the Truth very much in interpretation and understanding of the Bible. We also must learn to listen and hear our great counselor, the Holy Spirit. Talk, discuss, and keep an open mind about everything you hear and see.

I believe God gives His Grace, generously, to those who come to Him, with a sincere heart.

...12Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile."... Jeremiah 29

Happy to play a small role in your journey! Happy sailing!

D.

rosered · July 21, 2019, 04:42:56 PM

Love the great replies :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

This place is like church to me !!! where fellowship among believers is real and can agree with Jesus in our presence .

I believe as D , pointed out we are taught of the Holy Spirit , praying you find the peace and security that surpasses all understanding it because Gods love is the greatest comfort we can have here on earth , coupled with faith and our hope in God keeping it alive within ...
the kingdom of God is within you ..........

Mat 18 15 "If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 "Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

19 "Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them."

to know the power of Gods love to overcome the world is our greatest witness and that change is made known among the true believers God bless your finding His peace within you ...

marie glen · July 21, 2019, 07:02:08 PM

Hi Jo! That is awesome to hear! And is very exciting! I remember how Jesus told His disciples - which includes us! - that He wanted their joy to be full.. "..so that your joy may be full" - I really do need to look up that verse/verses to see what the rest of what He was saying was.. Oh wow, it's in Jn.15, my favorite chapter, about abiding in Him and abiding in love. (I googled the phrase - that your joy may be full). The word for word interlinear with links to the original greek words used, and their meanings is interesting, the way its phrased [but be warned the translators even like to run with the meanings of words! Like they so often do with verses - translating forever and ever for aion/eon/age, for example - Or they seem to love to use the most extreme possible translation - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/15-11.htm

It's why I use biblehub dot com and their app (or others) to look up the hebrew and greek of words. Because God's word is Truth and infallible, but translators are not!

Here's a very good list of 77 UR/CU (Christian Universalism) verses, here on the forum - https://tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-against-universal-salvation/77-ultimate-reconciliation-scriptures/

...my one advice, don't be enticed away from God's Word.. remember Jesus said its the wine (of the Spirit) AND the bread.. our daily bread, especially, I have to think, our 'loaf' the NT! The world is FULL of what so many say the Word says.. Safe to hear after we know what it actually says, lol. But there sure is a wide range, even in the expanding UR world. Not surprising, as every new wind of doctrine gathers a crowd of followers.. all saying come follow me.. But it's Truth that sets folks free! If a stranger comes in and hears just a babble of voices.. :doh:

May the Lord bless you in this search and discovery.. I really think the true gospel, brings us to a place where we (daily?) want to break forth into singing..
God bless :girlheart:

jo · July 22, 2019, 03:18:32 PM

Hi everyone, thank you for such thoughtful responses! :HeartThrob: It truly was helpful in my journey :)

jo · July 22, 2019, 03:21:27 PM

Quote from: Dandelion on July 21, 2019, 03:46:06 PM
For me, I see the Truth very much in interpretation and understanding of the Bible. We also must learn to listen and hear our great counselor, the Holy Spirit. Talk, discuss, and keep an open mind about everything you hear and see.

Hi D, I think this makes a lot of sense, but this exact thing is one of the reasons that I still am unsure. Every single denomination or belief system says the same thing about how to interpret and understand the bible.. so I find it confusing how everyone somehow interprets it differently and who is right about their interpretation. Thank you for the response :)

jugghead · July 22, 2019, 05:11:20 PM

For me, there are only two ways to interpret the Bible, either only some will be saved or all will be saved, I studied under both contexts and "all" makes more sense and benefits everyone.
For me, love doesn't choose between two children, love chooses both

marie glen · July 23, 2019, 05:02:05 PM

Me too! Jesus said He will draw all to himself.. translators of bibles will sometimes add words and put them in italics, but the word for word interlinear with links to the original words, says simply "all" - "every, the whole" in some cases "of every kind" BUT i sometimes wonder if that isn't a translator projecting.. (extension based on perception, accurate or inaccurate).. (Our Father didn't make it easy! But how's that verse goes about noble to seek and search out a matter?

all -- https://biblehub.com/greek/3956.htm

It seems to me that when we get serious with His Word, He gets serious with us! (about it) I love to simply read it! Straightforward, believing what it says.. not trying to interpret.. or allegory it away.. or take as only inner, its all about me metaphor..

Jesus said "Thy Word is Truth" not every persons view and take - is truth.. And these days, too, on the world wide web, there's the saying the Logos is only Jesus.. not "reasoning expressed in words" - in this case God's reasoning - and Jesus of course being THE example, fulfillment and basically prototype OF that reasoning (and Perfection).

{oh yes, because human translators have run with some verses, and meanings of some words - likely due to cultural, societal of their times, beliefs.. a projecting those beliefs upon verses and words - because of that some in UR belief - which Tentmaker has the policy of guarding against - some have thrown out their bibles and also have disowned all christians other than UR/CU believers! Which I think there's all degrees of this of course.. some don't throw out their bibles, just consign it all to "only" allegory/metaphor. (An abyss? lol) I say only because life itself is a metaphor! ..but it's still quite "literal" -- so "God is the savior of all, especially those who believe" to me is quite, matter of fact-ly, literal. Just like the virgin/maiden did conceive! (gospels & Rev.12:1)

I recently came across a poster's post of a long list of preachers and teachers they said was bad.. And I'm like, really? Where's the "don't judge" especially "before it's time" (the upcoming age of discernment/"the judgment"? which follows the millennium?) And where's the "love thy neighbor/thy fellow person"?

Or even "hate the sin" untruth, error, false doctrine, "but not the sinner!"

"God is the savior of all, especially of those who believe" 1 Tim.4:10. Jesus said (Jn.12:32) "I will draw all" (to belief! enrolled in the Lamb's book).

:Peace2: :girlheart:

Ross · July 24, 2019, 06:39:43 AM

When you truly love someone you will do anything for them.
True love keeps no record of wrongs.
Nothing- not angels, powers,height, depth, nor any other created thing can keep us from the love of God.
To fully appreciate and understand we have to go through much. Wisdom comes from experience.
Because of Jesus Christ and his work we are children of God.
Awesome.

jo · July 30, 2019, 03:43:04 PM

Thank you everyone for your kind replies. I was searching through this forum the other day and I saw that someone said to not ask others what to believe, but to figure it out yourself. I dont know why but this never even occurred to me as a thing to do. I always just assumed I was supposed to only believe what my church taught... :OhNo: Yesterday I felt the urge to pick up my bible and just read it, so I did. I was confused but I assume with practice I'll learn how to read it properly.

Thank you again for all of your replies :dsunny: :dsunny:

Ross · July 31, 2019, 01:13:55 PM

You are welcome.
Jesus is our mediator and no one else.
Because of Jesus Christ we are children of God and go directly to God like we do with our dad.
You will see things in a different way and the joy unspeakable will flood you in every way.

marie glen · August 03, 2019, 03:30:00 AM

Amen Ross.. So true!

Quote from: jo on July 30, 2019, 03:43:04 PM
Thank you everyone for your kind replies. I was searching through this forum the other day and I saw that someone said to not ask others what to believe, but to figure it out yourself. I dont know why but this never even occurred to me as a thing to do. I always just assumed I was supposed to only believe what my church taught... :OhNo: Yesterday I felt the urge to pick up my bible and just read it, so I did. I was confused but I assume with practice I'll learn how to read it properly.

Thank you again for all of your replies :dsunny: :dsunny:

That is awesome news Jo! :friendstu: And thank you very much for posting us the update. :gsmile:

Rowland · August 03, 2019, 11:52:21 PM

Remember, my friend, God created you and is therefore responsible for your salvation, not you. God would never put the responsibility for your salvation in your hands, the hands of a weak, broken human being. This is why the everlasting lostness or death of any human being would represent a defeat for God. God cannot be defeated. He desires that all human beings be saved and he will get his wish. The last enemy to be defeated by God is death. And everlasting punishment in hell or everlasting annihilation are both forms of death. Death will never have the last word.

Salvation is basically a creation event. When Jesus comes to live in your heart you become a new creature in Christ. When Jesus went to the cross, he wasn't being punished for our sins. God could forgive our sins with no punishment being necessary. Jesus, in suffering in obedience to the Father's will, was being perfected on our behalf (see Hebrews 2:10 and 5:8-9). Jesus was the first human being to be made in the perfect image of God. And by having Jesus in our hearts we too become more and more in God's perfect image. God's work of saving us believers in Jesus is completed when he resurrects us from the dead.

If Adam and Eve had been created in God's PERFECT image they would not have sinned. They needed Jesus even before they sinned. Perfect people do not sin! They did not have the Holy Spirit. They were the natural man described by Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14. Also they were not created to be immortal. The source of their immortality was external. It was not a part of their very being. They had to eat of the Tree of Life to keep from dying. All God had to do to cause them to start dying was to keep them away from the Tree of Life. He did not have to make one change to their bodily existence.

On the other hand, all human beings will have eternal life. Eternal life is way superior to just plain immortality that Adam and Eve had. Eternal life is the fulness of life and it is and will be a part of our very being, our very existence. God doesn't have to eat from the Tree of Life to have life in its fulness including everlasting life. And neither will we. We will have life in ourselves as God has and as Jesus has (see John 5:26). Jesus uses the present tense of the verb in John 5:26 but he is actually looking to the future when he is resurrected from the dead. That is when God granted him life within himself.

Rowland

rosered · August 04, 2019, 03:49:14 PM

so encouraging !!!!!!! good news of the gospel ,for sure :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

marie glen · August 04, 2019, 09:58:38 PM

Quote from: Rowland on August 03, 2019, 11:52:21 PM
Remember, my friend, God created you and is therefore responsible for your salvation, not you. God would never put the responsibility for your salvation in your hands, the hands of a weak, broken human being. This is why the everlasting lostness or death of any human being would represent a defeat for God. God cannot be defeated. He desires that all human beings be saved and he will get his wish. The last enemy to be defeated by God is death. And everlasting punishment in hell or everlasting annihilation are both forms of death. Death will never have the last word.

Salvation is basically a creation event. When Jesus comes to live in your heart you become a new creature in Christ. When Jesus went to the cross, he wasn't being punished for our sins. God could forgive our sins with no punishment being necessary. Jesus, in suffering in obedience to the Father's will, was being perfected on our behalf (see Hebrews 2:10 and 5:8-9). Jesus was the first human being to be made in the perfect image of God. And by having Jesus in our hearts we too become more and more in God's perfect image. God's work of saving us believers in Jesus is completed when he resurrects us from the dead.

If Adam and Eve had been created in God's PERFECT image they would not have sinned. They needed Jesus even before they sinned. Perfect people do not sin! They did not have the Holy Spirit. They were the natural man described by Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14. Also they were not created to be immortal. The source of their immortality was external. It was not a part of their very being. They had to eat of the Tree of Life to keep from dying. All God had to do to cause them to start dying was to keep them away from the Tree of Life. He did not have to make one change to their bodily existence.

On the other hand, all human beings will have eternal life. Eternal life is way superior to just plain immortality that Adam and Eve had. Eternal life is the fulness of life and it is and will be a part of our very being, our very existence. God doesn't have to eat from the Tree of Life to have life in its fulness including everlasting life. And neither will we. We will have life in ourselves as God has and as Jesus has (see John 5:26). Jesus uses the present tense of the verb in John 5:26 but he is actually looking to the future when he is resurrected from the dead. That is when God granted him life within himself.

Rowland

Wow! That's awecome! I never thought of that before about Adam and Eve.. Amen. I think I lean toward thinking Jesus had that life in Himself even before his incarnation, however.. but I could be wrong of course.. I know He pre-existed and how the Spirit flowed through Him without measure.. I know the verse, the captain of our salvation perfected.. and I believe that also..

I almost forgot.. :Chinscratch: so.. I'm thinking humanity ("the many") are not perfect(ed) until we understand good from evil..? (Why the tree was in the garden.) What leads to life and blessing.. How genuine love - He - must rule. He being life itself and He shall flow through all, being all in all.. Like the planets! All in perfect order and to step out of orbit can simply never be successful. Because "Good" is life, and not-good is death. Proving to all "in heaven and earth" go not that way.. it's the pit/death/suicide--if without His intervention.. That HE has consigned all to disobediene, so He may have mercy on all.. and so all may learn and fully understand good from evil? The two roads, life or death. Death being the anomaly that shall end, for the truth of it will be engraved (stamped, sealed) in our very make-up and character.. in our 'dna' and psyche. We get life, and God gets obedience out of the deal.. a seal being a legal mark.. notarized.. Paradise for all sealed into place, enduring.. "we have not a city here but await one that shall endure" Heb.13:14?

Inspiring post! :thumbsup: :gsmile:

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