2 Peter 2:9 - the unrighteous "preserved unto correction"?

[marie glen]

It's been mentioned before what a huge difference it makes in how the Greek word kolasis/kolazo is translated. The translators chose "punishment" but the word seems to be much closer to curtailing.. pruning! ..correcting. There are SO many verses which speak UR! Christian Universalists just need to keep repeating them! ..In humility and grace.. in love and affection.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-9.htm - If all this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold (preserve) the unrighteous for punishment (correction) on the day of judgment. - Berean Study Bible

https://biblehub.com/greek/2849.htm -

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish:

https://biblehub.com/greek/5083.htm

properly, maintain (preserve); (figuratively) spiritually guard (watch), keep intact.


:Chinscratch: Did the translators purposely translate in such a way as to decieve? Whether for politics or by underestimating believers.. believing they have to be always threatened in order to stay on the right path? Always running with scriptures. And also with descriptions of words? (How ages, and ages to ages, repeatedly became "forever" and "for ever and ever".)

preserve - I read an article recently which said "God remembers, thus has, the DNA of every person who ever lives". I thought that was kool.. It was a God plus science site (rather than the lie of science vs God :laughing7: )

:Peace2:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: It goes perfectly with I shared I was given to experience. What people have to understand is the soul is the garment of the Spirit, and it has spots and wrinkles if not delivered of EVERYTHING at death, and NO ONE but Him has done that. But it's not punishment in the traditional sense of torture, it's more like the weeping and gnashing of teeth for what they COULD have had. He doesn't "torture" us, we are reproved with our OWN wickedness and eat the fruit of our OWN mouth, both of which mean what is the heart that has spoken through us. This is why it says we will give and account of every idle word. Idle there basically means "unemployed", and that means not used of the Spirit. Live and death is in the tongue. Not one soul is going to skip this step, it the continued sanctification of our soul until full repentance comes and He comes as the lifter of their head to heal/make whole. My  :2c: Blessings....

[rosered]

 
  Thanks Marie  and Cardinal ,


  I sure was hoping other would speak up and out  on this first .


I have always considered the day of judgement  as the day of the Lord in the sense He is  our advocate or witness
 
in the  heavenly court  system  spoke of in Daniel and Rev and some in Jesus own testimony  as well as Pauls good examples in   the new testament .
  I have also considered we are judges in being just or unjust  judges in our own  small matters  , such as  Moses  judging the people of Israel   under his being the overseer  .

  because Jesus said  do not judge unless you  are seeking  to be judged .  truth is very important in the   LAW of good and evil
  this is why Jesus says make the tree good and  its fruit or make it corrupt a tree is KNOWN by its fruit / doings 

  And the the pure  all things are pure   Tit 1 ...14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of men who have rejected the truth. 15To the pure, all things are pure; but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16They profess to know God, but they deny Him by their actions. They are detestable, disobedient, and unfit for any good deed....

  1COR 6 Lawsuits among Believers
1If any of you has a grievance against another, how dare he go to law before the unrighteous instead of before the saints! 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!...

Psalm 49:14
Like sheep they are destined for Sheol. Death will be their shepherd. The upright will rule them in the morning, and their form will decay in Sheol, far from their lofty abode.

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever--yes, forever and ever.'

Daniel 7:22
until the Ancient of Days arrived and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for them to possess the kingdom.

Matthew 19:28
Jesus said to them, "Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom did not know Him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

very intense things happening in the unseen  by human eyes , but it says the Spirit knows all things and those following  in it .

1 John 2 Beware of Antichrists
...19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth....

[rosered]

  The truth sets us free , I just am under the impression that everyone will know the Truth / Jesus is the truth and way and Life
  eventually

23Then He told them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24That is why I told you that you would die in your sins. For unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."

25"Who are You?" they asked.

"Just what I have been telling you from the beginning," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."

27They did not understand that He was telling them about the Father.

28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me. 29He who sent Me is with Me. He has not left Me alone, because I always do what pleases Him."

The Truth will Set You Free
(2 John 1:4-6)

30As Jesus spoke these things, many believed in Him. 31So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

33"We are Abraham's descendants," they answered. "We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


I see the lack of being born again of the Spirit of Life in the  truth for those whom are still confused about the truth  maybe ?
  because it is only though his seed the incorruptible   Word   that cannot be marred or changed  or conformed   that  is of the TRUTH   and it is solid   
  and to me is is leaning what is of the flesh and what is  of the Spirit  that is the great discerning of spirits and  dividing , and those still confused  in calling evil good and good evil ?

They wanted an earthly kingdom  , but Jesus says His  kingdom is NOT of this world , it cannot be seen with earthly minds or eyes nor hearts or hands and feet  at all .

  those powers and principalities  are part of the being subjected to vanity not willingly , but perish in the using of such things
that are pruned and lopped off and cut away from us all  in this  life as  hindrances or stumbling blocks  perhaps  . ...  :2c:


changing our focus and eyes upon Him .  THE TRUTH  and way and life our everything  and not the world

[sheila]

 :2c: Righteousness a free gift through Christ..He alone as our greater High Preist can sanctify us,and make us spotless and without

blemish. Romans3;20,Romans2;12-13and Romans5;1-11.

  Hebrews7;11-28Jesus like Melchizedek.Hebrews ch 8,9 and10....

Now by all means provided those called as firstfrits to draw close toGod and be'set apart" for His use while still dwelling in this earthly tent

should be washed with the waters of life of His word...the blood applied of His sacrifice while we are yet 'sinners'=equals still dwelling

in this body of death[sin in the flesh] But perfection is not in this weak corruptible flesh we dwell in..but 'of just[ified] spirits of men

made perfect.Jesus Preisthood does not consist of only working  in this world..but His priesthood is in HEAVEN and is a GREATER WORK!!

a work of ALL......

   There are "rewards' and there is the free gift.Many have risen and  sit with Him doing the GREATER WORKS even now...as a reward.

     REVELATION OF CHRIST

     all men need their thoughts corrected from the error/deceit and lies of the dragon/serpent/satan.Jesus even asked the

Father to forgive those who were so deceived. We have offspring of viper sitting in the highest seats of the churches praising God

and cursing men in His image and likeness.Even heathen men are given to Jesus as an inheritance.ALL men need delivered from this

body of death[flesh with sin in it]


    CHANGE OF PRESTHOOD...CHANGE OF GARMENTS..WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED!!!!


our spirits[God's wheat] are sown in the midst of weakness and corruption[this flesh body of dust]BUT RAISED UP IN POWER{SPRIT}

AND INCORRUPTION

  God willed and spoke from the beginning'LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS"THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD FROM THE

BEGINNING"In the BEGINNING WAS THE WORD...When God had finished that 6th day work..HE CALLED IT GOOD..........

  GOD WILL FINISH THE GOOD WORK HE BEGAN IN  MAN........AND MAKE IT PERFECT[just spirits of men made perfect]

  when Jesus 'THEWORD OF GODCOME IN FLESH...lay His life down in order to take it backup again[as the resurrection]

   He said 'IT IS FINISHED" and no-one knew him as a man any longer...for He returned to the glory he had before.

and so,too, when all men are raised up in the image and likeness of Jesus..as the WORD OF GOD SPOKE...God HIMSELF wil lfinsh

our training and perfection as just spirits of men made perfect in understanding and love, immortal and  ncorruptible for eternity.

  WE MUST BE PERFECT...BECAUSE OUR FATHER IS...and JESUS IS the very image of the Father.....and in the beginning was the WORD

LET US MAKE MAN  IN OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS. :2c:

John 1;1-4Inthe beginning was the WORD,andthe Word was with God[Immanuel]and the Word was God[the Father and I are one]

He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made[let us make] without him nothing was made that has been made.

In him waslife[in himself] and that LIFE was the LIGHT OF MEN. The light shines in the darkness,but the darkness has not UNDERSTOOD

IT.

    RE-PENT  is a CHANGE OF MIND...........from ignorance/darkness unto the light of understanding His love,plans for us.

when the TOKOGAE was eaten from....sin entered through disobedience..AND FEAR because of death.......fear of God the beginning

of wisdom[fear of the consequences of disobedience of God.Jesus the mediator..of man/God's reconciliation.. between the TOKOGAE and

TOL.Jesus tells us our trespasses will not be held against us..they have been blotted out. That we are freely given the gift of eternal life

That we need not fear death and the laying down of our flesh..that we may trust God when delivering our spirit into His hands....that

God will clothe us[BEST ROBE]feed us,wash us and heal us..and fully restore.


  JESUS IS LORD!!!!!! DO YOU NOT KNOW THE BRIDE IS BEAUTIFULLY DRESSED?Matt 6;28-30

    Jeremiah 3;14  RETURN FAITHLESS PEOPLE..FOR I AM MARRIED TO YOU...[and the spirit returns unto God] :2c:

   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: As I said before, I didn't dream this up, there were 5 people there, 3 of which can hear Him as if it was you standing there talking to them, one of which He was giving  things  that this person's soul was finally delivered from, to pray against and for the person. Perhaps this old writing of mine, will help make it clearer........

What happens to the soul at death,is  those carnal beastly natures they gave life to, didn't overcome, ect., are still with them, as He reproves us with our own wickedness and we eat of the fruit of our own lips. The ultimate purpose of choosing this day whom we will serve, is to have a resurrection while still in the body, ie. corruption swallowed up of life. It's not just the physical body that needs this covering, the soul is feminine and He ordered women to have a covering.

Adam set the stage for what happened (more on this later), but Eve/type of soul, doing only what she saw her "head" (Adam) do, removed her covering thru sin (sin = missing the mark, the mark is the mind of Christ), and as she is the mother of all living in the flesh, we have to receive of our Covering again. The purpose of the Holy Ghost coming as fire is to consume the soul/carnal beastly natures, and thereby making the garment (the soul houses the Spirit) clean, washed in the blood.

If all we needed was initial spirit salvation experience (we are saved, spirit, soul and body, in that order), there would have been no need for the Holy Ghost to come. Notice in Acts 2 it said He SHED forth this. He took it off, AS A GARMENT, a covering, shed forth as covering of His blood. Same thing Elijah did with Elisha, basically. The Holy Ghost is as a MANTLE, outer covering. This is as the outer covering of the ark of the Tabernacle, the outward anointing or covering of gold (speaks of divinity) over the wood (speaks of carnal nature, a tree cut down).

WHATEVER part of us is not like God, is changed into that nature, for God is a consuming fire and whatever is not like Him is what is consumed. It's not destroyed as we think of it, but it's nature/purpose is changed. We don't have to be in a physical body for this to take place, because the fire continues to work on the sanctification of the soul until everything is like Him and she is a bride without spot (actually like a hole, a rent or tear in garment from sin) or wrinkle (same as when pages are misaligned and you can't read them with understanding; no cohesiveness and pattern continuity of Word/doctrine, line upon line AND precept upon precept). The soul is what makes us, us, not just the shell/husk we're walking around in.

Let me give you a personal example. Before I came to the Lord, if you had looked into the dictionary under the word "stubborness", you would have found my picture. Aware of this, I kept cursing that thing and commanding it to loose me, and be consumed by the fire of the living God. Finally one day, the Lord showed me that SUBMITTED TO HIM, that same stubborness was a thing of beauty in the Master's hand. He had used it to keep me from laying down and dying and giving up, when the trials and hardships came from walking with Him. It had been consumed in the fire of the Holy Ghost (every knee shall bow = nothing STANDING in us), and it's nature/purpose was changed because I overcame it.

These things that stand in us, are like plantings, ie. trees of carnal nature, that surround our heart and block out the Son, just as a grove of natural trees blocks out the sun in the center. This is why He rebuked those who worshipped in GROVES in the OT, and commanded that they be not only cut down, but set on fire  and  also why Gideon's name runs into a meaning of "feller of trees". Gideon was used to make ONE LOAF out of TWO that rolled down a hill and destroyed all the Mideonites (name means middle as in a partition, that which divides us from Him).

Adam was given dominion over all the carnal beastly natures, and he was to rule over them. He failed, Christ didn't and He gives us authority to rule over them by submission to His Spirit. When "they" are no longer given "life" by us (no longer empowered by the soul/Eve, mother of all that have life outside of Him), they become as a footstool under His feet IN US. Does not any good footstool elevate the feet?

This process for the soul does not stop with the death of the physical shell. It is ongoing until everything is repented of, all debts paid, everything not like Him consumed by the fire of a living God, who comes as the lifter of our head (which becomes as HIS HEAD, His perfected Lordship and replacement of covering, which was lost in the garden) and THEN there is the re-union of the soul and spirit, female and male part of us restored every whit whole with Him resuming His rightful place over both. It is the making of one new man. He called THEIR name Adam. He repeats this theme by the covenant between Jews (as males/symbolic of spirit, commanded to be circumcised) and Gentiles (as "females";symbolic of soul, not circumcised) which was established with the grafting of the Gentiles into the Jews,  also making of twain one new man.

He called THEIR name Adam, but Adam ignored that proceeding word from Lord and named his stony heart Eve, like one of the beasts of the field, thereby providing the first sin for the fall and separation/divorce of soul and spirit = a man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that PROCEEDS out of the mouth of God, for a divided house cannot stand, as a man thinketh in his heart, so IS he. It's interesting that when you run down the words "hardness of your hearts"  where Jesus said, that  because of the "hardness of hearts", Moses was given a bill of divorcement, it runs into  meaning of "dull of hearing".

In other words, because of the dullness of hearing (which in the Hebrew mindset means both to hear AND OBEY), God allowed the separation of the soul and spirit, but FROM THE BEGINNING, it was not so. Adam was dull of hearing and the separation came, but from the beginning it was not so, because from the beginning they were one with each other, with His Spirit as their covering of glory. Adam walked with God in the cool (runs into breath/Spirit) of the day, ie. under His Spirit as covering. Again also same pattern applicable to Jew/male, and Gentile/female. He always repeats things in multiple applications that start out in a "micro" vision and are ever expanding into a larger "macro' vision, just like everything nearly being formed out of the fibonacci sequence.

SO; the separation of soul from the spirit IS death because the covering is gone and the carnal mind is now lord, and He will not give His glory to another image. First spiritual, then eventually natural, which is why they did not die physically in THAT 24 hour day. The RE-union of the two is the first resurrection. And believe this or not, Paul talked about it being possible for this to happen while STILL IN THE BODY.

So what was God really telling them through Moses with, they were dull of hearing and could not hear? Because of their dullness, He allowed them to put away (divide) their wife (soul) from them (spirit) = DIE. Those dull of hearing couldn't hear it then, anymore than they can hear it now, but not one jot or tittle of the Torah (means INSTRUCTIONS) shall pass away without being fulfilled (established as a foundation in us).

But to those that overcome, we are given many promises. We are the "feet generation". The Head was birthed 2000 years ago, the feet are being raised up to reign thru rest in Him. No more warfare, swords beaten into plowshares, ie. going from warfare to planting seed. Blessed are the FEET that stand upon Mt. Zion. We've been made kings and priests through this anointing that covers. As priests we receive revelation from God, as kings we declare it to be so!

And the cool thing about the "feet" is, that as a disciple in this hour, we get to wash the feet of those that are "dusty", ie. IN THE DUST. Blessings...

[sheila]

 :2c:many have failed to switch out the Lamb that speaks as a dragon for the Lamb that looked like it had been slain, yet.

[marie glen]

:cloud9: It goes perfectly with I shared I was given to experience. What people have to understand is the soul is the garment of the Spirit, and it has spots and wrinkles if not delivered of EVERYTHING at death, and NO ONE but Him has done that. But it's not punishment in the traditional sense of torture, it's more like the weeping and gnashing of teeth for what they COULD have had. He doesn't "torture" us, we are reproved with our OWN wickedness and eat the fruit of our OWN mouth, both of which mean what is the heart that has spoken through us. This is why it says we will give and account of every idle word. Idle there basically means "unemployed", and that means not used of the Spirit. Live and death is in the tongue. Not one soul is going to skip this step, it the continued sanctification of our soul until full repentance comes and He comes as the lifter of their head to heal/make whole. My  :2c: Blessings....

Amen!  :thumbsup: It doesn't make any sense to me that those who die "still in their sins" would be magically or instantaneously reconciled with God.. Nor does the other extreme (imo) seem merciful to simply cast into a lake of fire.

Yes I believe in some torment - inner! - but like you sister, I believe the Word(s) of Father refer to INNER torments.. and like even being reconciled on this side of life, which includes for each one, degrees of weeping and for some even gnashing of teeth.

Jesus said He will draw ALL to Himself.. Since they have not ALL been drawn during (this) life, then that drawing must be completed sometime later.

Personally, I do not believe the scriptures support the idea of repentance and reconciliation during death. Even the verse about Jesus going via the Spirit and preaching to those disobedient during the building of Noah's ark, in 1 Peter, in 2 Peter, Peter says Noah preached to them.. If Jesus went to 'hell' or a centuries/millennia long holding cell.. why would He preach only to them? It seems much more logical to me that the preaching was done during the 100 years the ark was being built. And once again translators with doctrinal bias, muddied the waters of the verse.. (pun was not intended, lol).

More and more I have the idea that if the outline concerning the Lord's long 2nd advent (and 3 peaks of) were understood, UR would be much more apparent. And of course that's the important thing.. Making UR apparent as simple truth, easily understood.

And to understand that God does not burn folks alive! But ALL will/must experience the baptism of fire, which (surely?) is His Spirit, seeing as He/His Spirit is a consuming fire.. which causes (initially) weeping, and sometimes even gnashing of teeth.

So I figure somewhere during that long 2nd advent, of the millennium, the judgment, followed by the "all in all" event.. is the finishing up of the drawing of ALL to Jesus ( Jn.12:32). When ALL the ends of Earth turn to the LORD and the ALL families of ALL nations will worship/rejoice before Him (Ps.22:27). It cannot be done during the mllennium as it precedes "the judgment". I know ET may have turned the verse in Ps. 22 into metaphor.. or..? To explain away and contradict God's Word(s).. which I cannot think will bring reward to those doing so (our poor deluded, misguided, deceived brethren). But other verses in Ps. 22 were literally fulfilled in His 1st advent. (And other prophecy, like the virgin birth, etc.) So why it is logical to think everything after Christ is only metaphor is beyond me.. and imo, is a veRy slippery slope, but ever so popular in the churches. If God's Word doesn't fit their doctrine? Simple! Just change the Word, it's all only simile (babble! as in babble-on, everyone speaking their own language/lofty interpretation, and not actually the Word/truth at all.. There's 3 "woes" in Rev. but 7/8? which Jesus said concerning the Pharisees/false teachers :faint: If we turn someone from their babble, they may thank us! Of course He may be much more merciful to those honestly deceived, as opposed to those purposely deceiving! As we know "saved but as by fire" - literal? At Armageddon when is His "powerful and glorious return.. like lightning which is seen from East to West.." - which increasingly I believe will be, Armageddon, that is, a lake of fire.. as I believe reaping as we sow, includes not just individually, but collectively as well.)

Now get this! Et seems to believe - 1 - ppl die and are thrown into 'hell' bodiless, then resurrected.. or I guess just the body is resurrected, and they are thrown back into 'hell' then death and 'hell' are thrown into 'hell'. But didn't Father say to Adam after the disobedience (THE forbidden fruit, not an apple, not sex) didn't He say "dust you are and to dust shall you return"?! Wasn't it the deceiver who said "surely.. you won't.. die..?!" - Talk about contradicting the Words of Father.. As He had said, "you will die".. And that process did begin immediately. ...But it is so popular to take one verse on a topic and make it, standing alone, a doctrine.

"Many will come saying He is Christ.. many false prophets will arise and fool many.." (Mt.24)

Lake of fire as earthly prophecy, and the debunking of immortal soul (WITHOUT Jesus) ='s poof! hellis gone!?  .... :sigh: I can dream..

This is what the Lord revealed to me.. in what I think of as a package of "Bams" when I prayed earnestly to understand
2 questions I was asked - "why was the tree of knowing good & evil in the garden? And, isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" When I was not happy with my answers -- was that God is Life (itself, the breath, force and, Spirit of, and 2, that death is not life. The 2nd seems very simple and obvious.. but surprise! It is not. Of course those "Bams!" would mean less than ZERO if they contradict His Word. Especially (?) these days of 98-99% error/lies, it's extremely important to know it is His Word which is the measure/rule/measuring rod of what is true from what is not (rod of iron/unbreakable!)

I believe the dead not yet saved are stone cold dead until they "hear His voice and rise from the tombs/graves to the resurrection of judgment" (and correction.. Day of Atonement!?) I don't understand tombs to be metaphor or parable, and saying so, to me, seems to be adding to or taking away from the Word. Thus hell as holding tank, seems highly illogical to me. And I very much lean toward believing the "dead in Christ" are "asleep in Christ" a phrase used by Jesus and by Paul.. And I just looked up the Greed word used and translated sleep/sleeping/asleep yesterday.. I better do it again as I've already forgotten! But it was definitely "sleep" as we understand sleeping.

Maybe I've been ranting.. venting.. Any where we go.. in life and on the web.. it's like fighting ones way through a veritable jungle of falsehood and error.. (babble) by believers! When His Word/Truth is so straight forward! I guess only those who read it like children (w/o adding to or taking away,, w/o twisting into a mass of gobbley gook - easy to understand... :sigh: -- It's very good to know that ultimately, ALL will one day, speak the same language.. Which of course foremost - is Love. O Lord give us love and simplicity. Thanks for bearing with me. :gsmile:

I'm sure I am not the only UR/CU believer who gets frustrated now and then..

[marie glen]

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

very intense things happening in the unseen  by human eyes , but it says the Spirit knows all things and those following  in it .

..And alas, also in the seen by human eyes.. when reported, which seems to be seldom.. I truly wish (pray) I would pray more for believers (brethren) living in hotspots of persecution. I know there are waves of literal beheadings in today's world.. And also Paul, I've read, was one. And represents all persecuted to death..?

1 John 2 Beware of Antichrists
...19They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. 20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth....

Amen, sister.. way back then untrue things were seeking to infiltrate the message.. And we should ALWAYS "test the spirits" ..."spirits of the air" I have to think these days the airwaves! And just this morning I realized computers began with man's government(s).. in prophecy are "beasts". Will the www turn out to be the image of the beast given ability to see and speak?

Above all things? We want to be discerning! Which as we know is another meaning of the word to judge.. to discern. His Spirit gives us the gift of discernment.. able to discern true from not so true! So important.. "Many will come saying He is Christ.. many false prophets/teachers will rise and fool many people" (Mt.24) .."Many will say 'where (?) is the promise of His coming'?" (2 Tim?) .......[Mt.24] - "if they tell you He is here.. or there.. do not believe it for the coming of the Son of man will be like lightning that is seen from East to West.. For where the corpse is" (no Spirit?) there will the vultures be." - Dark entities? The rebel angels/messengers.. Bringing their untrue messages.. carrying them on the air.. What leaves one person's lips is changed before it comes to another's ear? Have their fingers in every pie, working all angles? Some of their messages towards us are threats.. So we must put on the armor of God.. and "above all have take the sWord of the Spirit which is the Word of God" :Chinscratch: hmmm, how's the rest of that go..? "with which we can quench every dart of the enemy"..? No.. that's the shield (of faith/trust) the "large covering shield of faith" upon which the fiery darts of the enemy(s) fall broken to the ground.. (But being His Spirit is more like a force field!)

But being w/o the sWord / judgment / discernment we would be very vulnerable.. as we are without the shield.. (and the rest of the armor? But of the shield or the sWord, Paul said "above all" or "most of all".. It's the shield..

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/ephesians/6.htm had to (compulsively :laughing7: ) look up the interlinear also.
chapter - Ephesians 6

verses 12-18

..put on the complete armor.. that we may be able to stand and withstand.. gird the loin (also metaphor for mind/judgment/discernment) with Truth.. put on the body armor (and heart covering?) of righteousness (& grace?) and the boots of readiness to answer concerning the gospel of peace, etc.. having taken the shield of faith and helmet of salvation.. take the sWord of the Spirit which is the Word of God.. and pray always for all..
:girlheart:

P.S. -

:2c:many have failed to switch out the Lamb that speaks as a dragon for the Lamb that looked like it had been slain, yet.

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

P.S. -  I get the sense that metaphor has to do with inner workings / work of the Spirit within us.. So I think of it as 50% of the story.. And we do good to not forget either 50%? The metaphor and, or literal.. the inner and, or the collective.. Also as I have learned over the years, I've realized as we continue we often have to fine tune our beliefs and perceptions.. like with binoculars or a telescope.. Few of us, upon any scene, have everything clearly in focus. And new knowledge doesn't usually require a clean slate or complete refocus.. But as humans we sometimes think that might be the case, so can be very defensive about other views? Not able to widen our view? And is a habit to see differing or new ideas as strictly either - or, rather than being an also - and..
:girlheart:

[Andrew]

Hi Cardinal can you direct me to where I can read more about what happened in this situation your describing in the quote below. Thanks

"As I said before, I didn't dream this up, there were 5 people there, 3 of which can hear Him as if it was you standing there talking to them, and He was giving them things  that this person's soul was finally delivered from, to pray against and for the person. Perhaps this old writing of mine, will help make it clearer..."

[Cardinal]

Hi Cardinal can you direct me to where I can read more about what happened in this situation your describing in the quote below. Thanks

"As I said before, I didn't dream this up, there were 5 people there, 3 of which can hear Him as if it was you standing there talking to them, and He was giving them things  that this person's soul was finally delivered from, to pray against and for the person. Perhaps this old writing of mine, will help make it clearer..."

Hi; If you click on my name, then "show posts", it will up what you asking about. Blessings...

[Andrew]

Hi cardinal

I went through the first  18 pages - enjoyed reading your experiences and thoughts - and couldn't find it...do you know how far back I have to go? 

[sheila]

 :2c:Listen,many return home in various states of ignorance[Peters vision of the sheet] the saints were 'overcome"All are undergrace..

there is a heavenly priesthood in heaven where such ones are perfected in understanding. There any many[say like a leopard that

can't change his spots] finds rest. The heavenly ministry performs 'washings' with the water of truth.....that God may be worshipped in

spirit[form] and truth.

that there are many who have been overcome...and wherein fact spiritually dead unto God while residing in their dusty/clay vessel

only to live after they rise[your dead shall live!]

In Jesus letter to the churches He indicates certain things that need to be overcome by the 'saints/churches"to receive rewards.

the rewards are increased 'talents' of Light of spiritual understanding.

the perpetual rainbow covenant is with man and beast[man without understanding is as the beast that perish] for the preservation of

their life.

   The ARK of His testimony was opened  in heaven. They receive back into their own body[Jesus and Father....]all men..even those with

no understanding whenthey rise. All recieve a first rates piritual understanding in this perfecting phase.  They are instructed per

fiery lectures from the altar in heaven ..that 'burn away'previous held ignorance/lies/deceptions that any man were bound in.

They are given perfect understanding..an incorruptible body[that can not be tempted..]

  who/what/why/where/when and how.oflife/death/good/evil....is all answered....

when we enter[are gathered]into the barn[storehouse]of heaven..all is restored..our soul,also...He restoreth my soul

   The GREAT SHEPHERD/TEACHER..Father/Jesus seek out that which is LOST..lost sheep[souls] need restored[brought into the barn]

they are preserved unto correction.. the above is how we learn righteousness. God's judgements[mind and truth revealed]

corrects our erroneous thinking,ignorance,misunderstanding or delusions/decievings by the prince of this world.

  FATHER FORGIVE THEM...THEY KNOW NOT WHAT THEY DO. THEY KNOW NOT THEIR RIGHT HAND FROM THEIR LEFT

   Father has done just that.......GOD HIMSELF WILL FINISH THEIR TRAINING...Yes,Our Father loves to teach Hischildren..and He Himself

  also will instruct us.[what  good Father doesn't lecture/instruct His children]

[sheila]

 :2c:I really must trample some scorpions here...hoping to imprint His words in your minds[foreheads]...DEATH HAS NO STING.....

O'DEATH I SHALL BE THY PLAGUES! Why should you be tormented?Peace,peace to him both far and near...in fear there is torment.

the evil spirit said unto Jesus.....I know who you are..did you come to torment us before the appointed time?

[jabcat]

I haven't studied this out, but I wonder sheila if "death has no sting" is regarding believers?  A hint at that might be the last line of your post, i.e., "our appointed time"...so they knew something further (not pleasant) was coming.. :Chinscratch:

[sheila]

 :2c:hey JC any man that believes satans doctrines..like ET ED..will be fearful/tormented mentally because they believe the lieof satn

    whereas the truth Of God's love/restoration,reconciliation,free gift,mercy/grace/not counting trespasses against them and deliverance

would comfort His people and set such free from such mental unrest.

the demons know their coming judgement. men in the corrupt image show satans personality character traits[Jude3;16] the

men shown as examples openly display such fruits of the devil incorrupted flesh of men for all to see....and show us justwhy

Father will totally consume them in the LOF.

However,we KNOW as all men have bore the image of the corrupt,so,too,shall all men bear the image of the incorrupt.

TOKOGAE=we have good examples[godlytraits]inflesh..and evil[ungodly]traits exhibited in man's flesh..you will know the tree[family]

by it's fruits[satans offspring of vipers pirits/demons/godless/worksof the devil]]or God's holy seed-good works in men ofHis spirit.

we know Sodom and Gomarrah are restored,Cain,Balaam,Korah etc..this is the men that served as evil examples..due to satan

and wicked spirits overcoming them and doing the wicked works through them.possessing men etc. God considers them as

stolen temple vessels of which Babylon has drunk wine from.

   God's truth and Jesus revelation of these things sets us free..but many men are still bound in them. We can help'loose' them from such

deceptions..and bind them with the cords of love to God by speaking the truth of God's word unto them.Many have come to thisvery

board wrestling in their mind if UR be true or ED/ ET.We see them struggle..and their minds troubled/doubts/stumbling.. becoming fearful

at times.

  each in their appointed time..lest they turn and I heal them.a time and season for every purpose under heaven.

God and Pharoah of Egypt for instance..yet EGYPT MY PEOPLE...those to whom it was said'not my people''you are the sons of the living

God"

we desire to be  spiritually healthy..and not be partakers of babylons/jezebel's spiritually sinsick plagues/conditions.

we desire to befound at peace and waitingfor Him..we want to be prepared.Preparation Day and prepared to meet Our God/Father.

[marie glen]

If He is "keeping the unrighteous for correction"..

..I found myself back at this verse (I haven't read more of the thread yet) I completely forgot about the verse, even tho there's something I think of as important in it.. when the Lord teaches us something, it seems to me that He keeps building upon it. Like truth is a huge (beautiful) web.. Imagine it under early morning slanting rays of sunlight, making dew sparkle on the delicate all covering web like diamonds.. atop peridot green grass also sparkling with dew. Or maybe a breathtaking tapestry would be a better word.. so we don't think of the world wide web.. or even the web of lies that currently covers so much of the planet.. A much darker web with not just one.. Um, nevermind.. I can't finish that. Just being a drama queen.. :laughing7: (Of course the worldwide web has nothing to do with an image of the beast given breath/authority? so it can speak.. when its head is resusitated/in place? Just kidding, :laughing7: forget I said that..)   

The interlinear (2 Peter 2:9) - https://biblehub.com/greek/2849.htm

And of course the word there, written "punishment" is - https://biblehub.com/greek/2849.htm

kolazo

2849 kolázō – properly, to dwarf, mutilate (curtail); used of punishing slaves to incapacitate them; hence, to punish (cause agony) to curtail ("dock/check," Abbott-Smith), i.e. in a way that restrains (impedes, restricts).

1. properly, to lop, prune, as trees, wings.

2. to check, curb, restrain.

3. to chastise, correct, punish: so in the N. T.; passive 2 Peter 2:9, and Lachmann in 4; middle to cause to be punished

Apparently the translators prefer the furthest drawn out meaning - to punish (it has to be from a pagan myth mindset! Or the king (as in King Jame's hallowed translation) wanted the most severe interpretation of the faith.. :dontknow: (ultimately not seen spiders weaving webs?)

https://biblehub.com/2_peter/2-9.htm - parallel verses of the verse..

If this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. (NIV)

Word for word (interlinear)
Knows Lord devout out of temptation to deliver, unrighteous then unto day of judgment being corrected to keep..

I do wish interlinear verses could be copy-pasted. I left out the - in parenthesis, the's.. For clarity we could imagine an and, in place of the comma I put there? Oh! And I did replace punishment with correction ...becoming my own translator, which could be dangerous! ..but are other translators infallible? idts, and apparently not! :doh:

Our Father is "keeping/preserving the unrighteous for correction". To say and believe He is preserving them in order to for ever and ever torment them (in His sight) with no relief ever, is, oh my goodness! Extremely insulting. No wonder more and more people are seeking other truth on the world wide web! (Because it's there! Jesus said "I have opened a door for you which no man can close."

...yet it will be closed because He also said, "..night is coming when none can work" Jn.9:4. It may appear man shuts it, but ultimately not so.. for He either allows it, or He doesn't allow it.. :wink2:

[marie glen]

..Amen Jabcat and Sheila

God and Pharoah of Egypt for instance..yet EGYPT MY PEOPLE...those to whom it was said'not my people"you are the sons of the living

God"

we desire to be  spiritually healthy..and not be partakers of babylons/jezebel's spiritually sinsick plagues/conditions.

we desire to befound at peace and waitingfor Him..we want to be prepared.Preparation Day and prepared to meet Our God/Father.

:thumbsup:    She - babble-on :laughing7: (mystery babble forehead) holds in her hand a foaming cup ..of her side effects? the side effects of her enchanting seduction.. murders, abortion, sex slave trade, perversions - Rev.17:4 "full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immoralities"-Berean Literal.. Amen, her plagues.. cup.. a cup is for drinking from..

"In the hand of the LORD there is a cup with foaming wine, well mixed, and he pours out from it, and all the wicked of the earth shall drain it down to the dregs." Psalm 75:8

:Chinscratch: A good time to read Ps. 91.. or 23.. etc!

1 He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, “He is my refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”

3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler.
5 You shall not be afraid of the terror by night,
Nor of the arrow that flies by day,
6 Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness,
Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday.

7 A thousand may fall at your side,
And ten thousand at your right hand;
But it shall not come near you.
8 Only with your eyes shall you look,
And see the reward of the wicked.

9 Because you have made the Lord, who is my refuge,
Even the Most High, your dwelling place,
10 No evil shall befall you,
Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling;
11 For He shall give His angels charge over you,
To keep you in all your ways.
12 In their hands they shall bear you up,
Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
13 You shall tread upon the lion and the cobra,
The young lion and the serpent you shall trample underfoot.

14 “Because he has set his love upon Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name.
15 He shall call upon Me, and I will answer him;
I will be with him in trouble;
I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”

[rosered]

 

  some are called out for destruction it seems while others were chosen  for a certain purpose

romans 9
21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory—...
Berean Study Bible · Download
Cross References
Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for His purpose--even the wicked for the day of disaster.

Romans 2:4
Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance?

Romans 9:20
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?"



1 Peter 2:8
and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word--and to this they were appointed.

  I read it a many times in many ways  and it seems to me that God  appointed them for  stumbling , all of Israel ?
  I think it is so no one can boast and brag that they  did anything except what God appointed them to be  in the first place
  or  not  :dontknow:


other translations


and, "A stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

New Living Translation
And, "He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they do not obey God's word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them.

English Standard Version
and "A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Berean Study Bible
and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.

Berean Literal Bible
and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense." They stumble at being disobedient to the word, to which also they were appointed.

New American Standard Bible
and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

King James Bible
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

Christian Standard Bible
and A stone to stumble over, and a rock to trip over. They stumble because they disobey the word; they were destined for this.

Contemporary English Version
They disobeyed the message and stumbled and fell over this stone, because they were doomed.

Good News Translation
And another scripture says, "This is the stone that will make people stumble, the rock that will make them fall." They stumbled because they did not believe in the word; such was God's will for them.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and A stone to stumble over, and a rock to trip over. They stumble because they disobey the message; they were destined for this.

International Standard Version
a stone they stumble over and a rock they trip on." They keep on stumbling because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

NET Bible
and a stumbling-stone and a rock to trip over. They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

New Heart English Bible
and, "a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense." For they stumble at the word, being disobedient, to which also they were appointed.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He is a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, and they stumble on it, in that they do not obey the word, for they are appointed to this.

but how many people know this ?    and how many times have you heard  why Jesus died on that cross ?

some believe it was the jews   and some know He was sent by God for this very thing  , and some believe He died for all   and some think  for just a few  and some know He laid  his life down only to take it back up again .
     I am not going to judge anyones  ways of seeing the cross of Christ  and the faith they hold precious ,  like some say we can be refined by others sharing  what they have in faith to God by the Holy Spirit .


it is like Jesus told the disciples when among them  , leave them alone or in peace .

...49"Master," said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us." 50"Do not stop him," Jesus replied, "for whoever is not against you is for you." 51As the day of His ascension approached, Jesus resolutely set out for Jerusalem....
another place same  meaning .
Matthew 12:30
He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.


THE LIVING GOD is gathering everything back into Himself  :2c:

 

[Cardinal]

Hi Cardinal can you direct me to where I can read more about what happened in this situation your describing in the quote below. Thanks

"As I said before, I didn't dream this up, there were 5 people there, 3 of which can hear Him as if it was you standing there talking to them, and He was giving them things  that this person's soul was finally delivered from, to pray against and for the person. Perhaps this old writing of mine, will help make it clearer..."

Hi; If you click on my name, then "show posts", it will up what you asking about. Blessings...

:cloud9: Thanks, it was post #11 after you click on my name, which I was referring to. Blessings......

[Andrew]

Thanks Cardinal

What was it like down there? - only if you feel it is appropriate to share

Also would we be in two different places at the same time if the Spirit goes back to God and the soul goes to ghehhanna?

A similar idea was also revealed to me last year but I have had trouble understanding how it would work?

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Hi.....see your PM feature...

[marie glen]

This is interesting, when Peter talked about following the way of Balaam (prophesying/teaching for the sake of profit) the verse says -

But a donkey corrected him for this evil deed. It spoke to him with a human voice and restrained his foolishness.

The interlinear - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-16.htm

I wondered if "correct" would be kolasis, which as we know is "to correct" but is translated "punish".

The point being the donkey, used by the LORD/Father to correct -1- did not kill (forever) nor torture the prophet. But "corrected" him.

Well it didn't turn out that way.. but is more along the lines of reproof or rebuke..

But "restrained" - later in the verse is "koluo" and in the definition includes -

Usage: I prevent, debar, hinder; with infin: from doing so and so.

probably from the same as kolazó - to CORRECT

..interesting.. :Peace2:

Considering "the unrighteousness preserved unto kolazo" (my sp? Or tense? May be all wrong as I don't understand all that.)

[sheila]

 :2c:his'madness' was to curse what God had Blessed. He was corrected/hindered by an angel of the Lord standing in his way..and some

dumb ass speaking like a man. Preventing him from pronouncing curses on those God had blessed.Every sunday you can find preachers

paid wages to curse men into the LOF/ET/ED