Crisis of faith/ Catholicism stuff

staranthology · March 25, 2019, 08:39:33 PM

I'm a Catholic (or was? Pretty sure believing in UR instead of hoping for it has auto-excommunicated me). I really want to believe in UR. My life has been utterly ruined by thoughts of hell, and being unable to reconcile a loving God with hell. I recently attempted suicide because I figured, if my mind/God/whoever was going to force me to think about hell all the time, I might as well go there so I don't drag anyone else down with me. (Sorry. That's really awful to say out loud. I was in a terrible place. I still sort of am, but not as drastic as that currently. Please don't worry about me. I don't want anyone to worry about me.) And then I found tentmaker, and read through pretty much the entire site, and felt the free-est and happiest I had ever felt in my life for about three days. But then doubts started creeping in again.

As much as I want/need to believe in UR, I just can't reconcile it with what the Catholic Church has taught. I feel like most of the arguments on tentmaker make a lot of sense if you're starting from a protestant/evangelical perspective, sola scriptura and all, but I can't square the hope this site gives me with the teachings of the RCC: e.g.:

"If anyone says or holds that the punishment of devils and wicked men is temporary and will eventually cease, that is to say, that devils or the ungodly will be completely restored to their original states: let him be anathema." [Canons of the Provincial Council of Constantinople, 543]"

This seems to leave no room for UR. Asides from that, who are we on here to say what the Bible teaches? If the church is wrong, where did it go wrong? Why is there no ongoing apostolic tradition of UR? How do we understand verses like John 6:53

Quote"Jesus said to them, "Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.""

with the idea of universal reconcilliation?

I'm not sure how much of this is queries about UR and how much of it is queries about the authority of the Roman Catholic Church, but these are some things I've been wondering lately. Sorry if this is a ramble.

Anyone else on here who was/is Catholic? How did you/ are you dealing with the issues that come from having to trust the authority of the church and tradition AS WELL as scripture whilst wanting to believe in Christian Universalism?

jabcat · March 25, 2019, 10:28:00 PM

Hello, I'm not catholic, I'll be brief.

My beliefs;

the starting place for any of us is believing on/trusting in Jesus as Savior - His life, death, resurrection sufficient for our salvation.

"eat my body, drink my blood..no life.." symbolic language, utter truth (spiritually - through belief on Him as Savior).

Provincial Council of Constantinople - one opinion of men. Other previous councils did not denounce universal reconciliation.

What do the scriptures teach and the Spirit reveal, regardless of man or religion's interpretation, or what any one "church" says..

Have a beneficial search.

staranthology · March 25, 2019, 10:48:03 PM

I really want to think that, but with the surrounding context:

"47Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh."

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your forefathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever." "

The fact that Jesus doubles down on the imagery instead of providing an alternate interpretation makes me think that it's supposed to be literal/physical, not just a spiritual thing.

jabcat · March 25, 2019, 11:09:01 PM

I'm glad you're really thinking about this :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I hate to be so gruesome, but I think I need to be.

Honest question; when Jesus said that, did He then proceed to lay down on the table and let the apostles start chewing on his arms and legs, and stick a sharp object in Him and drain His blood and put it in goblets so they could drink it? Because if not, then IMO, His directives, if to be taken literally, make no sense. He wouldn't be allowing done what He was instructing. IMO, a religious group after that somehow trying to make symbolic into literal, making up transubstantiation, is just that - an [ill-informed] exercise of religion, i.e., making something up. :2c:

jabcat · March 25, 2019, 11:16:58 PM

I would recommend an analogous study on "drink Living Water".

(it is talking about partaking of Christ - by believing on Him, trusting in Him, walking in obedience to Him, etc. - being His child and living in the Kingdom) :thumbsup:

jabcat · March 25, 2019, 11:33:03 PM

Quote from: staranthology on March 25, 2019, 10:48:03 PM
I really want to think that, but with the surrounding context:

The fact that Jesus doubles down on the imagery

I believe He was doubling down on the need to truly know Him. :)

MusicLover123 · March 25, 2019, 11:44:14 PM

In this passage, the disciples thought Jesus was asking for them to get literal swords. Notice His response:

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment." The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords." "That's enough!" he replied.
Luke 22:35-‬38 NIV

Dandelion · March 25, 2019, 11:51:41 PM

I was a Roman Catholic for 46 years....then I became a Missouri-Synod Lutheran.

I can't be at the computer too long, right now. Sorry about that. Let me just give you some food for thought.

The Catholic Church uses Tradition, as at least equal, if not above Scripture. I do not believe that is of God. The Bible talks about that, especially in Jesus's dialoges with the Phrarasees. The Catholic Church also puts itself in the place of the Holy Spirit, when it speaks of the need for scripture to be translated to the general population, through the priests. That is why Jesus told us that He would not leave us orphans, but would leave the Holy Spirit to teacher us and speak to us, in our hearts and souls.

If you read the Bible, without the bias of the upbringing of believing in Hell, you will find many, many verses to support Universal Salvation. I agree with jabcat and others. Lucky.....or, rather, blessed.....for me, I had Ursuline nuns, in my Catholic School, and they taught us to read the Bible. The more you read it, the more you will realize why so many people do not want others to read it, or why they run from it, themselves. Don't trust humans....only trust God. We must all 'seek His face', which is more than a life long journey. But, it is absolutely, the 'Pearl of Great Price' ( parable in the Bible).

It is God's love letter to us.....and the words in it are living words. As many times as one might read it, you will always be learning new things from it. It is truly a gift from Heaven.

So, I will leave you with these thoughts for now, and will get back here as soon as I can, to see how you are doing, stananthology.

Keep trusting in the Lord, not in people.

D.

Ross · March 26, 2019, 02:42:02 AM

Quote from: staranthology on March 25, 2019, 10:48:03 PM
I really want to think that, but with the surrounding context:

"47Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

53So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your forefathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever.” "

The fact that Jesus doubles down on the imagery instead of providing an alternate interpretation makes me think that it's supposed to be literal/physical, not just a spiritual thing.

Absolutely.
This is the point of Christ's sacrifice to show that though He was conceived by the spirit, He was literally like us in the flesh.
Him being the first of the new creation is to set things right for us and lead us in this new process of growth and development.
When Christ was pierced by the soldier, [John 19;34] out flowed water and blood to show He died for us physically AND spiritually- literally in full for EVERY aspect of our being, both the current, and the one to come.

Looking at the history of Catholics- [the general church] - the leaders have claimed to be Christian, yet their teachings are not quite right.
Jesus does say MANY will claim to know Christ and even done miracles- YET He NEVER knew them.

Take note of Romans chapters 9-11.They point out the differences between Jews and Gentiles, then end up with this statement;
" For God has consigned ALL to disobedience, so that He can show MERCY TO ALL." [Rom 11;32]

This after pointing out in Romans 8;38,39 that NOTHING CAN KEEP US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS OUR LORD.

So literally, If God is for us who can be against us. [Rom 831]
Please be encouraged;

Colossians 2;14,15 " Having CANCELLED the certificate of debt with all it's legal demands against us,
which WAS hostile to us.
HE HAS TAKEN IT AWAY BY NAILING IT TO THE CROSS.
He STRIPPED the principalities and the powers of their authority and
disgraced them in public by TRIUMPHING OVER THEM IN Christ."

The FACT that Jesus did this for us before we were born, and this was planned before the world began [Eph 1;4] seems to show there is a reason for all this trials, which seems to be to teach us right from wrong, with the assurance of our position thanks solely to the work and gift of God through Christ our loving saviour and joint heir before our Father-

1 Cor 15;49 " And just as we have borne the image of our earthly man we will also bear the image of our heavenly man."

Again, HIS LOVE NEVER FAILS.

GodIsLove · March 26, 2019, 02:45:12 AM

Hey,

I have a Catholic background.

Long story but I was raised Catholic, had quite a good connection to God as a child, but as a teen and young adult bounced around to different beliefs or non beliefs, then had a spiritual experience and then explored Protestantism heavily, then felt fear and despair over hell and after a crisis of sorts God showed me universal salvation with this website and with the Bible passage "Every knee shall bow..." immediately after calling out to God asking if there is a hell or not...

When I wanted fellowship I was led to a Catholic Church again after trying no church and several different churches.

I attend sometimes not always.

I met with the pastor there and he told me that he doesn't believe in hell either.

I don't think the Catholic Church is "correct" 100% but I don't think any religious belief system is 100% correct. I don't think I am 100% correct either.

However I am not interested in theological debate. I don't believe God cares that you check of boxes of right belief. I think God wants relationships with us and he wants us to grow in Love to be like Him who is Love. The labels are meaningless.

Prayer is your friend and the most helpful thing for you to do right now.

I read my Bible feverently for a few years and that was good too, but recently I'm praying more and listening more. Asking more. I recommend it.

Life is crazy hard. I can't beleive how hard sometimes. Keep praying and know that God is Love. We can't comprehend this, but we can know it's true.

Also, there are and have been many Christian and even Catholic universalists. Look them up. It's also totally fine within the Catholic faith to hope and pray that all are saved.

This site is almost exclusively Protestant. I see the issues with Catholicism but I see issues also with Protestantism, so I tend to just hold them both under the umbrella of Christian, imperfect humans trying to do the will of God and follow Jesus. I don't believe one side has it more right, after years of study and wondering what path to take I beleive this is where I am to be.

Anyway, pray about everything and be extremity patient because answers sometimes come in an instant but more often than not you are being prepared for things to unfold in a timing not of your own but the timing that is perfect for you nonetheless.

Good luck on your search.

rosered · March 26, 2019, 12:13:45 PM

Love the replies and agree with them all

as far as the serpents lie is concerned , it is keeping everyone bound up in unbelief ! till the day of the LORD COMES TO US
I believe it is very personal and very much an individual work of God and that is why no one can know the time or hour but the Father only , it is HIS mercy and grace that reveals to us His truth /Son .
Jesus Christ comes to free us up from the works of the devil [ the big lie being, you shall not surly die ]
But the WORD SAYS we have two laws working in us all
one is death and the other is Life and both are excellent in their doings :dsunny:

For me , the corruptible image is being destroyed , as the new and TRUE one is being built by GOD HIMSELF ...

THE LORDS PRESENCE is set up in your heart to take HIS rightful place and the throne of GODS grace will come forth .
More and more of Jesus Christ and true anointing of the HOLY SPIRIT pours out and seeing the LIVING GOD with less and less of the false christ or fake anointing [being seen of mankind ] and not of God .

The thing that helps me most at this time is to know , that what is of God is pure and LOVELY , peaceable and holy and resting in hope , breath in deeply the Holy Spirit of life into your being and exhale any thoughts that are not of God , being the spirits of fear and torment and guilt and shame and hate and comparing ourselves to one another , God is not a respecter of persons say , you are not of God and may the LORD rebuke you satan and your power over my mind and body and soul ... Father cleans my thoughts and make them holy before you , may the grace you give fill up my being , that is sufficient for today ....

I do believe in the power of GOD to overcome the world and all the evil that wants to steal Gods glory and keep us bound up and tormented and in pain and tears of failure , I DO believe our old nature will loose its power over our bodies when we call upon the name of the Lord our God with a sincere heart and let JESUS rule and reign fully and capture every thought that keeps us from the love of God , to know fully the LOVE OF GOD is the goal in my opinion and JESUS CHRIST is the only way we can obtain this powerful and holy Spirit of life working in us whom we can believe wholly in Him at His Word .

You see , I had been hospitalized in the ER last September for some weird kind of anxiety disorder that was choking
the life out of me literally and was speechless
unable to move or do any thing , I was terrified , because this kept happening off and on for some time randomly

It sounds nuts to most folks and I do not expect them to understand just how much the cares of this life had a hold on me and the scriptures had come to life and made them so real and true , about the parable of the seeds and the 3 kinds of soil or land , to me it is our hearts and it had become hard as flint , and it was literal in many ways but also metaphorically as well . the blood work come back as to much carbon monoxide in my blood and no oxygen , because my heart was in BIG TROUBLE , they thought it was a pulmonary embolism , showing signs of debris and much inflammation of the blood but could not find its source , I have had a lot of tests run since than .
But I am hear to tell you right now I KNOW IT IS GOD working death and life in me as both laws apply simultaneously as it was a warring in my members and the binding and loosing of powers and principalities of spiritual warfare in high places
of the heart on earth as it is in heaven ..... GOD does fight for us all when we call upon the name of the Lord , especially when we are weak , Than HE IS STRONG

No one can convince me otherwise now , I was terrified , but now when it starts up with the terrors , I ask the Lord to help , By breathing in the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE and all its purity and cast out all the evil things that hinder my mind , the spirits of pride and anger and torment and fear and earthly, sensual and devilish thoughts that try to have this power over my mind ....

Ask the LORD FOR HIS HOLY HELP and great grace that keeps us HIS OWN possessions ..

You are one that I felt led to speak to about this , because it seems like an important time to share this with .
When we are overwhelmed and overcome with grief and sorrow and doubtful pain , GOD wants us to be filled with His peace and joy and Holy Spirit giving us an abundant life , you have just as much right as anyone to be here and know the LOVE OF GOD as anyone , those are things I am learning to accept into my being , you are good enough and you are loved , we are His to be purposed in Gods desires and be made known in the earth as it is in heaven . the biding up the bad to be burned up and loosing the good in Gods consuming fire of HOLY SPIRIT witness is real as anything we can touch or taste or see in the world now . HIS righteous judgements are being OPENLY manifested in us all ........

manifest = display or show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts or appearance; demonstrate.
"Ray manifested signs of severe depression"
synonyms: display, show, exhibit, demonstrate, betray, present, evince, reveal, indicate, make plain, express, declare
"she manifested signs of depression"
be evidence of; prove.
"bad industrial relations are often manifested in disputes and strikes"
synonyms: be evidence of, be a sign of, indicate, show, attest, reflect, bespeak, prove, establish, evidence, substantiate, corroborate, verify, confirm; literarybetoken
"disputes and strikes manifest bad industrial relations"
(of an ailment) become apparent through the appearance of symptoms.

"a disorder that usually manifests in middle age"

Both Life and death are ours , all things are ours to be made known openly before the LORD and all the WORLD to see and we are Christ and Christ is Gods
:HeartThrob:

Dandelion · March 26, 2019, 01:25:15 PM

So sorry you had to go through all of that, Rose!

I had you in prayer, while you were not at this website. So happy I did.

:HeartThrob:

D.

GodIsLove · March 26, 2019, 01:28:56 PM

Rose thank you for sharing your story. I wondered and prayed about you as well during that time.
:HeartThrob:

rosered · March 26, 2019, 05:52:48 PM

So appreciate your prayers and concerns beloved sisters ! :HeartThrob:

praying in the Spirit of Life and calling upon the name of the Lord is the power and strength to overcome death in many forms

Salvation is of God and HE alone is our saving grace and those whom are with Him in Spirit :dsunny:
I have also been praying for the weak and afflicted and poor in spirit , the overcome with evil , it is in the Lords prayer ,lead us not into temptation but DELIVER us from the evil one ....... AS THE LIGHT SHINES BRIGHTER the evil has no place to hide in the darkness Come Lord Come !! praying for deliverance the action of being rescued or set free.
"prayers for deliverance"
synonyms: liberation, release, freeing, rescue, delivery, discharge, ransom, emancipation; More
2.
a formal or authoritative utterance.

Calling on the LORD IS BELIEVING HE WILL DO IT swiftly . love you all ..

marie glen · March 27, 2019, 01:12:58 AM

Amen, amen! all of the above!

Quote from: rosered on March 26, 2019, 12:13:45 PM
but now when it starts up with the terrors , I ask the Lord to help , By breathing in the HOLY SPIRIT OF LIFE and all its purity and cast out all the evil things that hinder my mind , the spirits of pride and anger and torment and fear and earthly, sensual and devilish thoughts that try to have this power over my mind ....

Ask the LORD FOR HIS HOLY HELP and great grace that keeps us HIS OWN possessions .

Amen, sister.. :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: Bless you! So happy the Lord always carries us through!

Quote from: staranthology on March 25, 2019, 10:48:03 PM
I really want to think that, but with the surrounding context:

"47Truly, truly, I tell you, he who believes has eternal life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died. 50This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And this bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh."

52At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, "How can this man give us His flesh to eat?"

53So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

56Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood remains in Me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your forefathers, who ate the manna and died, the one who eats this bread will live forever." "

The fact that Jesus doubles down on the imagery instead of providing an alternate interpretation makes me think that it's supposed to be literal/physical, not just a spiritual thing.

He did literally give His flesh and His blood by dying on that cross. But don't forget (dear one) that on the eve of His crucifixion, He lifted the bread and said this is my body. And He raised the wine and said, this is my blood.

And to "do this in remembrance of Me".. which communion is great, but I think the deeper and even more true meaning is, to abide in Him (John chapter 15 - a very important chapter) ...to abide in Him we need the daily bread - especially our loaf of the NT (daily, and read annually i believe is best) and we also need the (new) wine of His Spirit.. we need both. One won't do. But both.

But the bread wasn't literally His flesh. The wine that evening was not literally His blood in a cup.

God's Word(s) itself, always trump man's words and doctrines, and always trumps man's thoughts on what the scripture says.. But I think it takes practice. I used to feel condemnation because after a short while I gave up on the churches.. but these last few years, I am very happy.. I know not everyone needs to do this, be a kind of spiritual hermit, studying on my own with different translations and concordances, and now online tools and apps.. But I was never really taught a body of doctrine by an institution or church
--- so I never suffered the withdrawal..
:girlheart: :HeartThrob: :Peace2:

Christus Victor · May 27, 2019, 04:58:51 AM

Glad to see this thread, I too am Catholic (I'm tempted by Eastern Orthodoxy off and on though). Since the OP posted his concern about the Eucharist let me post one of my big hang ups that keeps me coming back to the RCC: where did we get the canon of Scripture from? I understand the writings came from the inspiration of the Holy Ghost but men compiled the canon. It was the Catholic/Orthodox Church that decided what was canonical. Christians going back to the 100s speak of bishops, it's clear that the church had a hierarchical structure.

These issues are really and truthfully what keep me tethered to Catholicism.

News:

Crisis of faith/ Catholicism stuff