Jesus' Earthly Ministry wrt Israel and Us "Pagans"

[jabcat]

Hi guys and gals.  I've been believing Jesus' earthly ministry prior to the cross was mainly if not entirely to Israel.  This is what Martin Zender teaches, and it makes sense to me in terms of UR and the "hell" doctrine.  In essence, that Jesus' teaching wrt Lazarus, "outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth, worms dying not/fire unquenched" were addressing the Jews who were about to lose their position of inheritance and privilege.  A supporting scripture would be Matthew 15:24, 'and he answering said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".' (Young's)

However, I ran across a scripture today, that quite frankly has me troubled and casts some doubt on some of my prior viewpoints concerning this topic.  The scripture is Matthew 12:18 which says "BEHOLD, MY SERVANT WHOM I HAVE CHOSEN;  MY BELOVED IN WHOM MY SOUL is WELL-PLEASED;  I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT UPON HIM,
AND HE SHALL PROCLAIM JUSTICE TO THE GENTILES." (I'm not shouting, that's a copy/paste from NASB :smile:.)

Some of you who have really dug into scripture on this and may be able to shed some light, it would be appreciated if you would share on this topic.  As I see it right now, this addresses some of our core beliefs wrt UR, unless, whatever this topic means, the bottom line is, any of scripture's references to punishment have to do with remediation and temporariness.  Comments/insight please.  Thanks, God's blessing.

[fire walker]

Hello jabcat,

I started up a thread on this subject over at Ultimate Grace forums.

It appears to me that yes Jesus earthly ministry prior to the cross was mainly to Israel and that of all of the houses of Israel namely to the Jews, Jesus said that he was  sent not but for the lost sheep of the house of Israel Mat 15:24. During David and King Solomons riegns all 12 houses (tribes) of Israel were united into one Kingdom. It was after King Solomons death that a political split occured leaving  ten tribes making up
the Kingdom of Israel and Two tribes of Judah and Benjiman making up the kingdom of Judah now there are two Kingdoms divided against each other that had once been united, they even wared one against the other, what happened here and who were the lost sheep of the house of Israel out of all of this? I have often wondered, however beings Jesus was very upset with the Scribes and Pharisees, the religious authorities of that time, this seems to indicate that in most likelyhood the lost sheep of the house of Israel were namely the Jews and not all the Israelites, though I suppose it could mean all of Israel because of Jesus statement to the Gentile women, "Women such faith I have not seen in all of Israel go your daughter is healed" So here I still have a question without a clear as yet answer to exactly who the lost sheep of the house of Israel were.

The Jews had been given the oracles of God as is shown in Romans 3:2 not the Gentiles up to the time of Jesus earthly ministry, so the Jews had been given and received something that the Gentiles had not, The Gentiles could not lose anything they had not received, they were never under the old covenant, only the Jews were.

This is a very interesting topic jabcat and am glad to see someone post this thread where we can discuss this subject, it shall be interesting to read the responces as they come in.

Peace,
Fire Walker

[Kratos]

The only thing I feel led to add at this point is that the Christ called to be a light to the gentiles is both Head and Body. He was the light and we are the light of the world. It is possible that the prophesies concerning the gentiles speaks of the church age where the firstfruits function as His Body as a light to the gentiles.

John

[jabcat]

Hello jabcat,

It appears to me that yes Jesus earthly ministry prior to the cross was mainly to Israel and that of all of the houses of Israel namely to the Jews.....So here I still have a question without a clear as yet answer to exactly who the lost sheep of the house of Israel were.

Peace,
Fire Walker

Good, thanks.  I had only briefly considered the question you pose here wrt who are the lost sheep...interesting, good point, I'm not sure either.

The only thing I feel led to add at this point is that the Christ called to be a light to the gentiles is both Head and Body. He was the light and we are the light of the world. It is possible that the prophesies concerning the gentiles speaks of the church age where the firstfruits function as His Body as a light to the gentiles.

John

So us, the ecclesia, Jesus' body acting as an extension of Him sounds like what you're saying...I've thought of that in other areas, but never wrt the prophesy...if that's the case, then both things could be true, i.e., Jesus was speaking to the Jews, but now we share the Good News with the world "on His behalf"...or maybe more accurately, He shares Himself through us..

[jabcat]

I ran across another scripture today that gave me another jolt wrt this topic.  It's in Matthew 18:7,8 where Jesus says it's better to not have hands or feet than to be cast into fire eonian (CV) [age-during (Young's)].  This throws me...if He was only talking to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, I would have thought he would have been referring to the loss of their place of privilege in the kingdom, not next-age fire/"fire", even of a corrective nature.  Then in verse 9 wrt plucking out the eye, He again says fire, as in Gehenna fire (CV).  To me this ties into this whole thing of was He talking, in His many references to "hell"/Gehenna, to the Jews about their "kingdom" situation only, or a broader reference that could infer others' time in "fire" as well?  I think of the Lazarus situation...I've read several authors including J. Preston Eby refer to the "torment", casting out, etc. as being a symbol of Israel's loss, not an end-of-age/next-age fire.  It occurs to me maybe He was talking about both, in different passages/situations...some places Israel's loss of privilege, some places the corrective fires.  That would go against the idea though that "Jesus never talked about 'hell' ", because I thought I had understood when Jesus talked about actual fires, He was referring to the garbage dump, not end-of-age correction.  I don't know, maybe I just need to sort through this some more in my own mind, but if anyone has any thoughts....

One thing that bothers me about this is explaining UR to folks seems an easier task if it really is true that Jesus was talking to the Jews about the kingdom, not about "heaven/hell"...however, if that's not the case, maybe the solution is that any punishment is still corrective and time-limited (aionian/age-during)??  Lay some thoughts on me..