Martin Zender

[idontknow]

When i first read of UR the name Martin Zender kept coming up, I watched a few of his videos and he was just way to out there for me at the time. But recently i found him again and started watching his videos and i still think some of his ideas are out there but a lot of it makes sense also. Is Martin Zender liked around here? i did a search and found some posts about him but not a whole lot. 

I am watching a video now with him claiming Adam was a hermaphrodite and had a vagina and when God made eve he didn't take one of his ribs he took his uterus to make her. Really wacky stuff....

[idontknow]

Also a video i watched Martin Zender says he believes in annihilation. I thought Zender was a Universalist but apparently not? I also watch Godrules on youtube and his early videos he was a universalist but now he to leans towards annihilation.

When i first became a Christian the thought of annihilation depressed me even if it was painless, it just seemed sad. Just like Zender I do not believe in free will so that means that let's say Lenin, Stalin and Mao ect... were all predestine for annihilation. So even if you had a bad upbringing and it messed you up to the point of being a cold hearted person that is un-saveable, to bad.

Ok this is where it is going to get weird. I consider myself a Christian, i cant say i love God but i don't hate him. I try to look at this world from his point of view and why he did this to us and it's to make us grow and understand things. I have no hard feelings about this i fully accept it but at the same time i don't want to be a part of it anymore here or in the afterlife. I have been thinking about annihilation quite a bit and even though in the beginning it was depressing to me now i find it to be very peaceful.

I am not a evil person and i don't hate God i just don't think i will like the afterlife. I am very attached to earthly things and it's not even sinful things. I really enjoy working on cars and wrenching on stuff and i always have and i honestly don't want to live without it because it's the only thing i have every truly enjoyed. But this is not the only reason i want to be annihilated i just don't want to deal with the unknown it just freaks me out and i really want no part of it.

I know it's weird, and i know there is no free will so i might end up in the afterlife anyways. But i cant stop thinking about how much i don't want to be a part of it and i'd rather not be around at all and just be erased and if given the option i would choose it.

[Ross]

I try to look at this world from his point of view and why he did this to us and it's to make us grow and understand things.

Amazing how much we try to blame God for mans' mistakes.
I used to assume the teaching of hell was correct- only by God's grace and mercy do I no longer agree with that teaching.

This world/age is temporary. We now have a temporary body. There are ages-plural- to come when man will see the correct way to live. Jesus is the only source of the life to come. Many are not yet aware of that. They will learn properly when they are raised to new life. Some will be the first ones, then the rest will follow at their own arranged time.

Also amazing how the word actually says that the time of judgment/correction is an unlimited time till all learn the truth and all are set free from sin and death.

I used to read Zender- but then realised he is not correct in his understanding of the coming ages- he is fact promoting an incorrect resurrection process- his interpretation.

1 Cor 15;22-28 highlight the truth about the sequence and final outcome of ALL being saved in their own order/time.

If we look at the definition of love in Romans 8;38,39 they highlight that NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Plus;
EPh 3;19,20 " to know the love of Christ which SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE, that YOU may BE FILLED to all the fullness of God
                     Now to Him WHO IS ABLE TO DO FAR MORE ABUNDANTLY THAN WE ASK OR IMAGINE,
                     according to the power that is working within us."

Jesus died for ALL MANKIND- HE DID NOT FAIL.
The devil tries to distract us from that truth.

As for annihilation;

1 Cor 15;54 " So when this perishable body puts on imperishability,
                     and the mortal puts on immortality,
                    THEN the saying that is written WILL BE FULFILLED;
                    'death has been swallowed up in victory."

Paul makes the statement about he used to live by the law until he was changed by God.
He had NO SAY IN HIS CONVERSION.
He then comes to be shown that we will be freed according to God's timing, NOT ours.
The Jews did not like that because this rendered their works useless for trying to earn salvation.
Salvation is a gift from God. Not by works so that no one can boast- ergo true equality for ALL mankind because of Jesus.

I am not trying to be negative, but rather positive to a glorious future for all.
The plan is so specific that Jesus did not try to convert everyone before he died for us.
Then only a few saw Him again, enough to record the data.
When something is planned there is a process of events to carry out the plan. This plan includes correction and learning from Jesus by His timing, not ours. My church life I now see was useful to learn about Jesus- but learning from Jesus is His work.
For you to be asking these questions, I.M.O is the start of a great change that he will work  for  and through you.
His LOVE NEVER FAILS.

[sheila]

MEN WILL PRAY FOR DEATH....BUT NOT FIND IT[why?..because you have eternal life as a free gift,as well as'righteousness"a birthright in Christ..and are a fellow heir.

ALL COVENANTS with death shall be annuled.[the'dead'know NOTHING!!!not God's thoughts for their future,certainly..nor what HE has Laid up in store for those who love

Him.


I'hear"FEAR of the unknown...the antidote is TRUST AND KNOWING GOD.

say..your son comes to you and says he wants to die?that he see's no point in living.....it's all just too much..and he can't handle it.would you not reckognize he

was spiritually sick?Lamentations5;15 Joy has gone from our hearts..the crown [of life]fallen from our heads...woe..our hearts are faint..are eyes grow dim,why do you

forsake us so long?SOS I am faint with love..comfort me with apples and raisins. MY GOD,MY GOD! WHY HAST THOU FORSAKEN ME.?


Our spirits are in His hands..the road is narrow and long...and we could ALL do with some REST and RE-CREATION AND RENEWEL...of our spirits. The three R's

of His WORD...may the sum of all His parts be made'whole/holy"


FOR THE JOY THAT WAS PLACED BEFORE HIM....HE ENDURED............

Daniel 8;10..starry host trampled

Rev 12;7,12 war in heaven.....woe to the earth and sea

for we wrestle not flesh and blood..but powers and principalities in high places. doesn't sound like much fun,huh? :2c:

[marie glen]

What if the 'afterlife' is upon Earth? The millennium of Jesus is (I believe) is upon Earth, as Zechariah 14:4 says "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south." We know this did not occur at His first advent.. so logically seems to me, to be at His arrival at His long 2nd advent (the millennium).

Then - notice how Revelation chapter 21 says the New Jerusalem will come down out of heaven to the Earth.. and the very throne of our Father and our Father Himself who says at that time "behold I make ALL things new and I will now Tabernacle (dwell) with mankind" --- upon Earth.

Sure we shall be like Jesus and He could travel spontaneously.. but why in the kingdom, can there not be vehicles? And good mechanics needed? :dontknow: Why not? After a while it may progress and be different.. but, well, Isaiah 11:7 says the lion will eat straw with the ox and the bear will graze with the cow" - this is not a ghostly afterlife.. I believe life will be more interesting and more creative than it even is now.. What will be missing is the trials, troubles and tribulations.. delay, shortage of money.. hunger, pain.. sorrow.. death.. all gone. The negative, the obstructions, the hype, the drama.. etc.. dissatisfaction, boredom, all gone.


..oh yes, as posted above, the battlefield is so often the mind.. same thing as the heart? psyche? But so often our very own thoughts.. it's not like satan&co try to influence us using a gravelly satanic voice.. not usually, it's usually our own voice! I figure, negative = "resist the enemy and he shall flee from you."

"MEN WILL PRAY FOR DEATH.." is the first thing I thought of.. And it's not from the LORD.. I have thought before this spirit is loose in the world..

The answer to all things.. Is more of Jesus.  :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :Pray:

[JamesH]

The answer to all things.. Is more of Jesus.  :cloud9: :HeartThrob: :Pray:

:iagree:

[rosered]

I know it's weird, and i know there is no free will so i might end up in the afterlife anyways. But i cant stop thinking about how much i don't want to be a part of it and i'd rather not be around at all and just be erased and if given the option i would choose it.

Everything glorifies  God ... regardless   of  what we all are experiencing  in this life ...

  Best we can  do is have faith  in the things of God .

  I have thought   and felt the same    , I want to be invisible   because of the struggle  . spiritual warfare is   awful ,  the failures  so  painful and suffering is  part of spiritual growth in truth and grace .

  I have been listening to this guy sing and it is a blessing ....Love & hate   by Michael  Kiwanuka     and His ''cold little heart ''.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMZ4QL0orw0

    God is love and we will   love Him back when we know Him as we ought to ,  right now its having faith in His works  , not our own , many ways we can see  His works if we are looking for them 
Seek His face  , He will     give you what you need to  get though this life ..
I can tell you it does get stronger and better as you keep  trying   to  Love Him back in only the way you  can   , Please do not let this world bring you down

He has overcome the world  already  , we have not .. and cannot without Him ,,,   by  working   it all out  though us all , to the end .. :HeartThrob:  so we must patiently     wait on the Lord ... 

  faith , hope and Love , the greatest end   Love/ God  cannot fail .

[GodIsLove]

I know it's weird, and i know there is no free will so i might end up in the afterlife anyways. But i cant stop thinking about how much i don't want to be a part of it and i'd rather not be around at all and just be erased and if given the option i would choose it.

Everything glorifies  God ... regardless   of  what we all are experiencing  in this life ...

  Best we can  do is have faith  in the things of God .

  I have thought   and felt the same    , I want to be invisible   because of the struggle  . spiritual warfare is   awful ,  the failures  so  painful and suffering is  part of spiritual growth in truth and grace .

  I have been listening to this guy sing and it is a blessing ....Love & hate   by Michael  Kiwanuka     and His "cold little heart ".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMZ4QL0orw0

    God is love and we will   love Him back when we know Him as we ought to ,  right now its having faith in His works  , not our own , many ways we can see  His works if we are looking for them 
Seek His face  , He will     give you what you need to  get though this life ..
I can tell you it does get stronger and better as you keep  trying   to  Love Him back in only the way you  can   , Please do not let this world bring you down

He has overcome the world  already  , we have not .. and cannot without Him ,,,   by  working   it all out  though us all , to the end .. :HeartThrob:  so we must patiently     wait on the Lord ... 

  faith , hope and Love , the greatest end   Love/ God  cannot fail .

Thanks for sharing that song Rose! I like it, and I'm going to listen to more of his music.

I looked and found an interview where he says:

One of the things that inspires Kiwanuka is his Christian faith and his membership of the St Luke's community in London. "It's a part of me and I put a part of me in all the songs I do," he says. "It inspires the lyrics, the sound of the chords and how I live as well."

But it's also something that he thinks the music industry would prefer he didn't talk about.

"You get advised not to say anything about it by labels and media people. I don't know why that it is. It's not seen as cool and people want cool.

"I believe there are a lot of people out there exploring their spirituality, but if you're around record labels and TV shows and magazines, it's different because the people who run those are older and have certain strong feelings about religion. But I think kids and young people out on the street don't think like that. It's a fascinating subject because people don't talk about it."

According to Kiwanuka, "It's not overt, but there's not really that many Christians in the music business. There are some people who used to be or come from a Christian background, like the Kings of Leon, but it's not something you're supposed to talk about.

"It's not cool. It's cooler not to be a Christian. If I said I didn't like religion or whatever, it would be regarded as a far cooler thing to say by many people.

"I wonder if there are many Christians out there in the music business. I don't know any, and . . ." he says, laughing, "if there are some, it's probably a secret."



I love when people have the courage to go against the tide like that! I like that he is talking about his faith instead of hiding it. I need that courage sometimes. 

[rosered]

I love when people have the courage to go against the tide like that! I like that he is talking about his faith instead of hiding it. I need that courage sometimes. 

So glad you liked it too  GIL.

  Thanks for sharing that  interview .
  I agree , it does take the strength  within , The Christ in you   the hope of glory ..  Colossians 1 [ I love this chapter , it helped  heal my own soul with the UR message ]
I always think of Jesus telling  us  , the least you have done unto one of these you have done unto me .

I do believe when the   old Adam is  sleeping the Christ rises up   within us .

  Gods anointing is a powerful thing   that moves  mountains out of the way  for us all.
Hebrews 2:11
For both the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are of the same family.

That is why Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.

Hebrews 6:10
God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.


I do believe Love is a universal language    and continues to touch peoples  lives and awakes them spiritually   within .

God is with us and experiencing the same things    though the LORD JESUS CHRIST   
  He come to   help us  all  though His own Spirit   knowing the flesh is weak   as we depend more and more on His Holy Spirit   for everything    though Gods Wisdom
Romans 16
Doxology  =openly praising God in public
(Romans 11:33-36; Jude 1:24-25)

25 Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past,

26 but now revealed and made known through the writings of the prophets by the command of the eternal God, in order to lead all the nations to the obedience that comes from faith—

27  to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

[darryl]

I try to look at this world from his point of view and why he did this to us and it's to make us grow and understand things.

Amazing how much we try to blame God for mans' mistakes.
I used to assume the teaching of hell was correct- only by God's grace and mercy do I no longer agree with that teaching.

This world/age is temporary. We now have a temporary body. There are ages-plural- to come when man will see the correct way to live. Jesus is the only source of the life to come. Many are not yet aware of that. They will learn properly when they are raised to new life. Some will be the first ones, then the rest will follow at their own arranged time.

Also amazing how the word actually says that the time of judgment/correction is an unlimited time till all learn the truth and all are set free from sin and death.

I used to read Zender- but then realised he is not correct in his understanding of the coming ages- he is fact promoting an incorrect resurrection process- his interpretation.

1 Cor 15;22-28 highlight the truth about the sequence and final outcome of ALL being saved in their own order/time.

If we look at the definition of love in Romans 8;38,39 they highlight that NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Plus;
EPh 3;19,20 " to know the love of Christ which SURPASSES KNOWLEDGE, that YOU may BE FILLED to all the fullness of God
                     Now to Him WHO IS ABLE TO DO FAR MORE ABUNDANTLY THAN WE ASK OR IMAGINE,
                     according to the power that is working within us."

Jesus died for ALL MANKIND- HE DID NOT FAIL.
The devil tries to distract us from that truth.

As for annihilation;

1 Cor 15;54 " So when this perishable body puts on imperishability,
                     and the mortal puts on immortality,
                    THEN the saying that is written WILL BE FULFILLED;
                    'death has been swallowed up in victory."

Paul makes the statement about he used to live by the law until he was changed by God.
He had NO SAY IN HIS CONVERSION.
He then comes to be shown that we will be freed according to God's timing, NOT ours.
The Jews did not like that because this rendered their works useless for trying to earn salvation.
Salvation is a gift from God. Not by works so that no one can boast- ergo true equality for ALL mankind because of Jesus.

I am not trying to be negative, but rather positive to a glorious future for all.
The plan is so specific that Jesus did not try to convert everyone before he died for us.
Then only a few saw Him again, enough to record the data.
When something is planned there is a process of events to carry out the plan. This plan includes correction and learning from Jesus by His timing, not ours. My church life I now see was useful to learn about Jesus- but learning from Jesus is His work.
For you to be asking these questions, I.M.O is the start of a great change that he will work  for  and through you.
His LOVE NEVER FAILS.

:thumbsup:

[guest6088]

Zender is VERY evidently ... Misled. (Deceived).

On one of his videos he calls a fellow brother an a******* which clearly is not love and not of God. - His behavior is disgusting frankly.
He slanders celestial beings, uses a fake name), doesn't show any fruits of the spirit (always on a downer too) and mocking someone (usually a fellow believer).

Zender started smoking at 50+ 'for something to do' he stated and he makes it a habit to chain-smoke during his videos on his youtube channel... That is not a 'sound mind'.
He is wickedly cruel when talking about people (Billy Graham etc) where he laughed at him being dead, saying he would be in hell if there was one and that he wasn't saved. 
Billy is dead now...He was a human being with a family and it's just not right to speak of people the way Zender does...He's an evil man.
Who is saved and who is not saved is God's call...It isn't ours to judge and from what I've read of Graham he was very 'universalistic thinking' towards the end of his days and from what i've seen and read he will be in heaven long before Mr Zender.

On nearly every video Martin creates there is some sort of outside-interference seemingly attempting to spoil it. (Be it a man cutting the grass/a train going by etc etc) (which Zender gets mad and impatient about to an astoundingly-pathetic childish degree (who in their right mind complains about a bit of everyday noise from everyday life going on around them?)) and then blames it on the devil?!....   Though since he doesn't believe in free will (and is quick to tell everyone that (and that anyone who believes in free will is evil)); the devil must be being controlled by God but Martin doesn't blame God (even though it actually IS (and must be) God) so he's a hypocrite too... 
...His beliefs don't fit together because they're not 'the truth' and he won't even debate.  In fact he told me once he doesn't read his youtube comments unless it is in agreement with him.

He's another one who thinks himself a modern day St Paul.  If only these people could see beyond their delusions.  He's nothing like St Paul.  Paul practiced love and would never snap about someone mowing a lawn behind him...He'd be more likely to befriend the man lol.

Zenders' anger at 'interference' (everyday life happening around him) reminds me of a time in an evangelical church a few months back...
...I'd went back to see some old friends (hey even Jesus visited dodgy places sometimes lol)...The preacher was right into his hellfire sermon when suddenly (to my joy) his mic started to feed back.  Long story short; this went on for about 15 minutes. 
The preacher blamed the devil of course (Zender-style), but I know it was God.  :cloud9:  And I walked out leaving him 'squeakin'.  :Pray:

Not many should profess to be teachers...Teaching is above being a healer and a prophet. 
Someone who starts smoking cigarettes 'for something to do' isn't in any position to teach someone anything (well possibly 'how to be stupid'...
...Someone representing Christ by swearing at other brothers publically on videos and calling other believers out publically; causing division is a phoney and we are told to warn such a divisive person twice then have nothing to do with them.

Well...I've caught ZSender out a few times but; as I say, he doesn't listen to anyone who isn't in agreement with him because only he is right (in his deluded mind).

I wouldn't normally talk about someone like this, however Zender is CLEAR AS DAY not of God so I don't mind. He is fake and clearly warped as Titus says.

...And I have nothing to do with him anymore.  :banana:

[TheChristianHeretic]

I don't agree with everything he says, especially when it comes to politics (he's way too conservative, politically-speaking, in my opinion), but I do agree with about 99% of what he says when it comes to theology, including when it comes to Billy Graham (I don't believe he was actually saved, relatively speaking, although as a Universalist I obviously believe he'll be saved from an absolute perspective).

And there's nothing wrong with starting smoking at his age, aside from the gross smell. He'll likely die of old age long before any other negative side effects of smoking hit, presuming the snatching away doesn't occur first.

Like all people, Christian or otherwise, he's human and has flaws, but his teachings are generally pretty good, in my opinion.

[jabcat]

Billy Graham wasn't saved? 

He was a believer and placed his trust in Jesus as Savior.  That's the scriptural "requirement" for being saved.

As far as Zender, I personally have little regard for his presentation of his version of the gospel.

[TheChristianHeretic]

Based on my understanding of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision, he wasn't a true believer, but this probably isn't the place for that particular debate.

[jabcat]

probably not

[Merks]

Based on my understanding of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision, he wasn't a true believer, but this probably isn't the place for that particular debate.

TheChristianHeretic ... could you please explain what you meant by "my understanding of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision?" My initial thought concerning your statement was you separate a Gospel for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Probably reading too much into your statement so I thought I might ask for a little clarification. Not looking for debate just curious.  :Chinscratch:

Blessings,
Merks

[marie glen]

I've always been pretty much a christian hermit - when it comes to the faith, that is. I've always studied the bible (and other things) on my own, only reading commentary or studies aFter in depth study of the scripture itself, via cross references.. and it used to be consulting the big Strong's concordances.. And with prayer of course. Now, after coming to the internet these last decades, it seems like the whole ecclesia is a bit mad, generally speaking :laughing7: - however we think of all as being either near or far, which we actually cannot know being a matter of the heart toward God.. tho i do believe the light of our understanding should shine brighter and brighter unto the day..If we are His.. He will guide us into all truth.

I strongly believe in constant, daily, annual reading of God's Word.. especially our loaf (of daily bread) the NT.. and reading the letters in the order believed written, i think, helps a great deal to fill in the complete story of the bible - God's message to us - thus the more accurate our understanding the better. [For instance, we still have as the biggest oppositions to the truth, in the church/ecclesia, as they had in NT days. The 'judaizers' who claimed to be apostles and were/are not; and license, ecouraged often by the elitest, possessing hidden knowledge and mysteries, the gnostics. Still quite formadable.. but hidden if we are not saturated by the washing of God's word upon our mind. And I think, of course, the source of Truth is the bread and the wine (itself) -- our daily bread and the new wine of His Spirit.

I've never really concieved of the idea of 'teachers'.. to me all that is like chaff as compared to Wheat - which is the as inspired Word(s) of God.. So many folks lean on teachings and ideas of other humans.. or tradition.. even short lived tradition.. still chaff (imo). It's SO easy to follow teachers.. worship with.. fellowship, yes! follow.. not for me. Ever-body's got their ideas about God's word..  man's understandings taught all over, youtubed, etc... Ultimately forming one's own understanding and giving it the seat of primacy.. People running around constantly saying , but God's Word doesn't say what it says, it's a hidden understanding.. in spiritual code.. the listen to and follow me spirit.. we become the biggest followers of our self. Who will save us from these bodies of death? From this carnal character of lifting up self to be followed..

You know all those daily scripture reading books which have a story written by man.. heart touching i'm sure.. with a scripture as heading or as conclusion.. I've never liked those.. Though as milk I'm sure they are quite wonderful. But i can't help it, the paragraphs of man' story i find mostly wastes of time.. for a daily reading book, I like the ones that are pure scripture. I don't think we need an interpreter.. Just good study aids and apps.. especially interlinear word for word translations.. And after much thorough acquaintance with God's Word, biblehub.com for instance has very good commentary lists. BUT so important to know biblical from nonbiblical b4 reading other human understandings.. (imo)
:gsmile:

i.e, Lot`s of folks on the internet follow Martin Zender.. thanks for the heads up! All tapestries - weavings of ideas - have threads of truth and threads of untruth.. and only the tip of God's  sWord can separate thread from thread.. Woe w/o it! :faint:   :Peace2: :cloud9:

[TheChristianHeretic]

TheChristianHeretic ... could you please explain what you meant by "my understanding of the Gospel of the Uncircumcision?" My initial thought concerning your statement was you separate a Gospel for the Jews and one for the Gentiles. Probably reading too much into your statement so I thought I might ask for a little clarification. Not looking for debate just curious.

I do believe that Scripture teaches there are two Gospels, yes. It would take too long to explain here, but I explain it in the first main section of my "statement of faith" article on my website at: https://christianheretic.com/nochurch/

[Ross]

Gal 1;15,16 " But when God,
                    Who had set me apart from my mother's womb
                    AND CALLED ME BY HIS GRACE,
                    was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles,
                    I DID NOT CONSULT WITH FLESH AND BLOOD."

14 Years later he meets Peter.

Gal 2;7,8 " But on the contrary, when they saw that I was entrusted with the gospel for the uncircumcised
                just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel for the circumcised,
                for the One Who empowered Peter for his apostleship to the circumcised
                also empowered me for the Gentiles."

This is what Zender focusses on.
He misses the next point that Paul makes.

Paul then elaborated about the purpose of the law through the next chapters of Galations.
The key point Paul makes about all this is about the resurrection  where ALL are free by grace, not by works/law.

Gal 3;28 " There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male nor female,
                for you are ALL ONE IN CHRIST."

Then Paul finishes with the KEY statement;

Gal 6;15 " For neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything but a new creation."

Eph 2;14-16 " For He is our peace,
                 Who has made us both ONE and has broken down the dividing wall,
                 HAVING ABOLISHED IN HIS FLESH THE HOSTILITY,
                 the law of commandments and regulations,
                  so as to CREATE IN HIMSELF ONE NEW MAN FROM THE TWO,
                thus making peace,
                and to reconcile BOTH TO GOD IN ONE BODY through the cross,
                 having put the hostility to death in Himself."

Paul then points out to the Philippians the true circumcision.

Phil 3;3 " For we are the true circumcision who worship by the spirit of God
               AND GLORY IN CHRIST AND HAVE NO CONFIDENCE IN THE FLESH."

Phil 3;8,9 " More than that, I regard ALL things as loss because of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord,
                 for Whom I have suffered the loss 0f all things and regard them as dung/refuse in order to gain Christ and be found in Him,
                NOT HAVING MY OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS THAT COMES FROM THE LAW,
               BUT THAT WHICH COMES THROUGH FAITH IN CHRIST,
               THE RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM GOD that is based on faith."

Colossians reinforces all this as well.

Col 3;10,11 " Have put on the new man,
                    WHICH IS BEING RENEWED IN KNOWLEDGE AFTER THE IMAGE OF IT'S CREATOR.
                   Here there is no longer Jew and Greek,
                   circumcised and uncircumcised,
                   barbarian, Scythian, slave and free,
                   but Christ is all and IN ALL."

I.M.O we all know in parts and tend to focus, understandably, on our current understanding.
All wisdom is in Christ;

Col 2;2,3 " My goal is that their hearts may be encouraged and knit together in love,
                so that they may have all the wealth of full assurance of understanding for knowledge of God's mystery,
               WHICH IS IN CHRIST,
                IN WHOM ARE HIDDEN ALL THE TREASURES OF WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE."

For me; since Christ has literally ALL wisdom and knowledge, why go anywhere else?
As Paul said at the start of this post,
                                                  "I did not consult with flesh and blood."

Jesus Himself said to not call anyone teacher or Rabbi, or father, or leaders,
BECAUSE CHRIST IS YOUR ONLY INSTRUCTOR. { Matt 23;8-10}.

We encourage one another, but learn from Christ. We appreciate Him more and more as we grow in Christ.
His love is patient, kind, keeps no records of our wrongs since He has paid for us ALL in full.
Keep knocking, seeking, and the door opens fully.

[rosered]

   :thumbsup:  Good job Ross , loved how you explained  the process  so well .

  The true circumcision  of the heart     and Love for God though Jesus Christ by His grace .

  Romans 2:29
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
2 Corinthians 3:3
It is clear that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away. Behold, the new has come!
  :dsunny: