Destroy - ruin

[marie glen]

I’m sure this verse has come up a number of times.. And an ET believer will put a different slant on it.. but it helps me in my study to repeat and review.. Not so easy to remember verse numbers, but my good friend biblehub, or even google is pretty good at it.. :laughing7:

1 Corinthians 8;10,11 - For if someone with a weak conscience sees you who are well informed eating in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged to eat food sacrificed to idols? In that case, the weak brother for whom the Messiah died is ruined..

Here’s the interlinear -

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/8-11.htm

Which shows “ruin” here - ruined by an accusing conscience - is the same one used in verses thought to mean forever ruin, destruction and annihilation.. which somehow becomes hell?
https://biblehub.com/greek/622.htm

It could be said his/her accusing conscience could utterly “ruin” their faith.. but eternal ruin? with no hope of ever being able to recover or overcome it?

[eaglesway]

In many instances such as that, the theology of the time was overiding independent thoughtful translation. It is difficult to comprehend that for a thousand years coming to the "wrong" conclusion on a major point of doctrine could lead to death by burning alive after torture to "recant". All of Europe was ruled by religious zealots of various shades willing to kill one another mercilessly and all subject in terms of doctrines to the Roman Catholic church, with the exceptions of a few things that sparked the reformation, which only slightly reduced religious oppression. The victors write the histories, so we rarely read, as Christians, the enormous sins of oppression committed by Luther, Knox, Calvin etc.

If the RC refused to let people have Bibles, why should we be surprised that that King James would pressure the translators of his Bible to conform to commonly held religious religious dogmas.

It was not a purely academic process.

[marie glen]

Amen! ..I also can’t help thinking that what the world calls Christian disputes, deeds and basically (European) wars (and persecutions/inquisitions) against each other, were not “Christian” disputes at all but ancient and long held tribal and ethnic - pagan - disputes.. The new ‘christiaity’ being simply made use of to continue these old resentments and struggles for worldly power and control.

I’ve always wondered why so many humans want and strive for domination! Instead of live and let live. All through history,nations and ppl striving, working, scheming for world domination! And, or domination of their little corner.

But of course all those things lead to ruin.. corruption.. ruin..
:banana: two realities.. life, or corruption/ruin, and the Word says life wins in every instance! Ultimately! Daniel was told there’d be wars to the ‘end’.. What a contrast “life” will be! ...And thankfully we are not “of the world” but have already been ‘transplanted’ into life! Strangers and pilgrims.. man’s world is not our home”..

[DavidFord]

Using http://dukhrana.com I looked at John 3:16's "perish" in the Aramaic, and other Aramaic NT instances of that same word, and concluded that yes, John 3:16's "perish" could mean 'die' (as with annihilation), but could alternatively mean 'be lost,' as in the 99 vs. 1 lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son.

[WhiteWings]

While I really love lexicons I think in this case they aren't really needed. I'll just quote what I wrote in other threads.

About the narrow road is said that few shall find it. "find" is an activity of the believer.
Does that mean salvation is in our own hands? That one sheep couldn't find the flock either. Perhaps didn't even tried to. But that's not important because the parable tells us the shepherd decides he is going to find that sheep.
--> Shepherd decides how many are lost. Not the sheep.
--> The parable also tells us any shepherd will go searching. No questions asked.

The woman in the parable of the lost coin is about a woman searching for a totally passive coin. The coin didn't even make itself lost. Neither did it wanted to be lost or found. When the woman found the coin she was very happy.
--> The coin had zero input on its fate.

The prodigal son sort of rejected his father. He chooses to be cut off. The way he spends his money shows me he clearly was on the wide road. And that road completely destroyed him financially. Did his father reject him after this destruction/death?
No, he was extra happy when his son returned.
--> The last chance is never revoked.


Shepard=owner of sheep. Woman=owner of coins. Father=owner of son.
They all were sad when their "thing" was lost. They all celebrated when it was found again.
So no matter how many things Father lost on the wide road; He'll eventually finds them again.

So I think many things can be explained in different ways. And as isolated 'facts' the various explanations can be acceptable. But when when all those facts are grouped together only one conclusion can be drawn....

I think it does serve as Scriptural UR proof. The thing with parables is that the shouldn't be used beyond the what they try to teach.
Obviously the big (and only?) point of the parable is that the Good Shepherd goes for the full 100% while other shepherds likely see 99% as a very good score.
I think that's all the parable is about.

Of course all sort of negative things can be added. Sheep #100 already died. The shepherd didn't find the sheep. The shepherd falls of a cliff and all 100 sheep perish. The other 99 get eaten by wolves. The parable is only about animals; not humans. etc etc.

Likewise I can put a negative slant to the coin parable. While the woman searched for her coin she neglected her baby which died from lack of care.


The parables aren't intended as an scientific writing that covers all angles. It focusses one one point. All quite UR points.
- The shepherd isn't happy until He gets all sheep back into the fold.
- The woman keeps searching until she finds that coin (the lost sinner). She gives  party that likely costs more than the coin itself :-)
- The father was happy when the son returned. Just happy. No judgements about his sins, wrongs, etc. Just a big hug and an even bigger party.

I see those parables as 3 chapters of one big parable/teaching. They have all one thing in common. Everything is returned where it should have been all the time. Kinda URish if you ask me....

KJVLuk 15:8-9 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
KJVLuk 15:4-6  4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
KJVLuk 15:11-32 And he said, A certain man had two sons:
.....
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
KJVMat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
622 avpo,llumi apollumi {ap-ol'-loo-mee}
Meaning:  1) to destroy 1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin 1b) render useless 1c) to kill 1d) to declare that one must be put to death 1e) metaph. to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell 1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed 2) to destroy 2a) to lose

684 avpw,leia apoleia {ap-o'-li-a}
Meaning:  1) destroying, utter destruction 1a) of vessels 2) a perishing, ruin, destruction 2a) of money 2b) the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell
Two verses with a different translation of the same word. The meaning of the word according to Strong's is also very similar.
I would say the meaning should be exactly the same.

The coin parable is clear. The coin was lost. Obiviously it was not destroyed otherwise the women couldn't have found it. The coin wasn't even damaged because that would have made it useless and the woman won't have rejoced of something of no value.
Would the shepard be happy if his sheep was destroyed (eaten by wolves)?
How can a destroyed prodical son return?

Considering that doesn't Mat 7:13 simply teach that many will get lost because it's very easy to get lost?

Lost prodical son. Lost coin. Lost sheep. And... lost people
The first 3 are found within a few verses. Why should we then assume those in Matthew are suffering forever?

I wonder how the coin, sheep and son parable can be ETified.

Coin.
=> The coin has no will to get lost or get found.
=> The coin isn't even aware it's lost.
=> No action of the coin is required. The coin is found (dragged) by the lady
=> Reason for celebration.

Sheep.
=> It's always the shepherd that's blamed when a sheep is lost.
=> It's the shepherd that starts to seek the sheep. No the other way around.
=> The shepherd doesn't punish the sheep. No he even carries (drags) the sheep to the flock.

Prodical son:
=> The son did rebel and did things agains his father's advise and will.
=> He experience a rough time and figured the ways of his father are not that bad afterall.
=> He returns and it's party time.

Toughts:
=> The wide road parable can't be explained in such a simplistic way but it can't contradict the other 3.
=> Coin and sheep are actively searched for. Elect?
=> What if the son would have died before got home?
==> No chances after death according to ET and ED.
===> The father actually states his son was dead and came back alive...

Unware, helpless or rebelion... all eventually are welcomed with great joy.

Coin=Sheep=Prodical son=We
Lady=Shepherd=Father of prodical son=God/Jesus

I'm missing wrath and lava.... :btantrum:

[marie glen]

Amen, WW! Very excellent!! And ET also always forgets how Hesus says He will draw all "IF, He was lifted up, signifying the type of death" He was in for..

Using http://dukhrana.com I looked at John 3:16's "perish" in the Aramaic, and other Aramaic NT instances of that same word, and concluded that yes, John 3:16's "perish" could mean 'die' (as with annihilation), but could alternatively mean 'be lost,' as in the 99 vs. 1 lost sheep, lost coin, and prodigal son.

Also, besides WW's most excellent explanations, if someone were to NEVER repent and be reconciled, they would indeed perish in the fullest sense of the word (imo). The verse also points out how the wages (result) of sin is death, not an everlasting life in any sort of 'hell'.

Without God's intervention (salvation/Christ crucified from the foundation of the world) ALL would perish/cease. But since He engineered this and submitted everything to vanity, He also built in the rescue/remedy and  "is the savior of all" and Jesus will draw /drag ALL to Himself.
:banana: :Peace2:

He is able, attribute, and it is His intention/will/design (character) to save all - 1 Tim.2:4