Free Will

[MusicLover123]

This may be a bit too controversial to start again, but I'll try  :icon_jokercolor:  99% of the members here aren't even active anyway, so I don't expect much debate...

On "free will" isn't there a cause for all of our actions, a cause and effect universe? Atheists make the absurd claim of an uncaused universe, yet your actions somehow become uncaused?

Maybe someone has an answer to this...

[marie glen]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean.. I think it's about unanimous among UR/CU that it's all God's choice as to who believes and whom He hardens, and not because of anything to do with them. But I don't think that's what you're talking about. I for one very much believe in cause and effect.. but maybe especially effect.

I think of things as not God causing all things / the things people do.  Though of course He may cause some.. the better things since all good comes from Him. And He raises up nations and all that.  But I think even some of that is indirect..(?)

I've had someone tell me before - basically - that the evil things that people do, God causes them to do it. That sounds highly illogical to me as an illogical dogma thing. Not that I want to offend anyone.. I don't think it was here. And the person likely misunderstood me.

I think it's more a case of letting things occur. Now, if you're going to prove, to everyone in heaven and earth, how horrifically horrible disobedience/alienation from Him is - how are you going to do that? If you don't let it run its course?

:Peace2: I don't know how far off I am
as to what you mean. :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

The destination is predestined, the route isn't.

[CST]

Like Glenda I'm not sure what you're driving at. Atheists, by which I think you mean materialists here, don't actually believe believe the universe is uncaused, they believe it is caused but they try to tie them selves in knots coming up with causes that like God are brute fact and exist as a logical conclusion of whatever existence start with. Everyone believes that the universe has an 'uncaused cause' in one sense if they think about it but the alternative is an infinite regress that makes no sense. But to atheists the uncaused cause is an unconscious cause which doesn't care about the universe it has produced or have any power or interest in how it pans out. Death is just one of those consequences and it is final because the uncaused cause can do nothing about it.

The destination is predestined, the route isn't.

For the benefit of others who might believe you, that sentiment is logically contrary and the more democratic the world apparently becomes the more obvious that contradiction is shown to be.

[WhiteWings]

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

[marie glen]

The destination is predestined, the route isn't.

:iagree:

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

And I agree with this too, but mostly once we are "being saved". Or actually, I guess what I'm trying to show a distinction of.. when the steps are toward carrying out abuses and oppressions, or murders etc.. God may move His hand out of the way, so to speak. But those steps I cannot believe He orders.. Allows, yes.. What I try to point out to ppl who criticize God because of the state of the world or because of specific sufferings, is, if God interferes in one thing, wouldn't He be expected to interfere in all things? And then what would ever be learned?  :2c:

Of course the proverb asserts God can upset any plans! :thumbsup:

[MusicLover123]

Maybe there was a reason I did not respond before  :icon_jokercolor:

Alright, I was reading Craig's(called studier on here now) arguments for "free will" or rather "freedom of the will" and probably changed some of my thoughts on this.

A quote:

Speaking of better, let us talk to those who are passively letting themselves go to destruction if they are better for it? Let us talk to those who have gone mindlessly into situations which kill them, because they felt it was God's will for them?

It is not God's will that any be sick or perishing; people are sick and perishing so God has given us healing and the Resurrection. It is not God's will that any be destroyed, but people are destroyed and it God's will they are reconciled and restored.

Not many in all the Sovereignty conversations and discussions, have ever come up with a valid reason why any would be sick and perishing, which is not a result of man's free-will or an action which enables man's free-will, so that God is glofied when man submits to Him and is made well.


First, there is no resisting the devil if you do not SUBMIT TO GOD.

Second, if Free-Will is a myth, there IS no reason to do anything because it was meant to be.

Third, since Free-will exists, we must submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee.

And, a little summary quote of some of his arguments:

IS IT THE WILL OF GOD THAT ANY BE SICK?

IS IT THE WILL OF THE DEVIL THAT ANY SHOULD BE HEALED?

It gets a bit tricky, as you may say that you have free will(at least this definition I put here) and everything works in cause and effect, how can you say anyone of your actions were not caused?

But then, if that is true, how can anyone be accountable and responsible? (you cannot have one without the other, from definition I saw) All you could say is "this caused me to do it" and blame it on everything else. What would make us different than robots? We would just be more sophisticated robots.

[MusicLover123]

Like, say for the societies with the cast system, they can blame all their problems on past lives, and take no responsibility and accountability for their actions.

[marie glen]

I think it's a matter of the word used.. We know God is the one who chooses who will believe, because it "we did not choose Him, He chose us ...because we are the foolish and the weak"(!) And because it says how "He hardens whom He will".

But it's quite obvious that rational creatures can make choices -- "I set before thee this day life or death.. choose life.." So I figure, it's like so many other things, there's the two poles, or two extremes of thought concerning it.. But the word of God tells us He chose.. and He hardens.. But observation and logic (plus the word, actually) tells us humans have the ability to make choices. [It also seems obvious to me that choice is being let to run its course (for the most part).. and that this is the learning of good from evil.. chewing on that fruit.. digesting, understanding fully good from evil.. His law written on every heart..

But "free will" sort of sounds like and is assumed to include the choice of following Jesus, is a free will choice.. thus the chooser 'earns' salvation.. which cannot be true.. So Calvin was that much correct, that God chooses [the weak and the foolish :laughing7: to be stewards of the truth/mysteries understood via His Spirit, and guardians(?) of truth during this lifetime!]
   :faint:

[MusicLover123]

Since you do not know the definition of free-will but assume that free is an absolute rather then the being part of a noun phrase called free-will, you will assume that free-will means you are abosultely free to do what ever you want and like without obstacle. That is not what free-will means, it is not the power to do anything, it is freedom to think of something with the ability to try and the power is limited to what you can do. You cannot will that you are a billionaire instantly, but some have had a goal to be a millionaire and achieved it. They had the will to do something, and accomplished what they wanted, that is free-will. You cannot choose when, where, why, you were born. You can choose when, where, why, you retire, there are things that might prevent you from achieving what you want, that does not mean you have no free-will, it means you have obstacles to overcome, or submit too.

And

Right, but they do have a free-will, however the choice to follow God is not there but they have many other choices in life which they can utilize. Kill Jim, or kill Joe; not kill Jim, not kill Joe. Seek revenge on a wrong given, or grant mercy at at a wrong given.

And

Free-will is not our own sovereignty, it means you have choices. Having Free-Will is not 'we are god', it was the choice to eat of the tree or not, which is free-will. When will people realize this? Adam did not recieve free-will after he disobeyed the command; it was a result of free-will that he could! Free-will is the cause, and we have all be seeing the consequences of Adam's sin.

Our will is limited, His will is unlimited. Our will will die, His will is immortal. So as long as you live, you have free-will, nd you are therefore responsible and accountable for everything and thus suffer the consequences of your deeds and actions, and so will your family and so will those around you. That is why we are to submit to God, and resist the devil. If we submit to God, we don't give up our accountability or responsibility, but we do give up our power to God, who will make the crooked pathes straight again. A Sovereign Lord is responsible for correcting his subjects, not excusing their evil behaviors.

What I see here is an inability still to accept one's own actions and behaviors as their own.

Those should help. Still thinking about this myself  :Peace2:

Edit: I think this is a better translation:

Pro 16:9  A person plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps. 

Pro 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.

[WhiteWings]

The destination is predestined, the route isn't.

:iagree:

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

And I agree with this too, but mostly once we are "being saved". Or actually, I guess what I'm trying to show a distinction of.. when the steps are toward carrying out abuses and oppressions, or murders etc.. God may move His hand out of the way, so to speak. But those steps I cannot believe He orders.. Allows, yes..

I think ancient Israel is a good example of what I mean.
A] Destination.
God decided Israel is His (bride).
B] Route
Israel messed up several time.
God allowed their rebellion.
For a while. Then He starts pushing them back to their destination with prophets, wars, exiles and other events.

[MusicLover123]

It gets a bit tricky, as you may say that you have free will(at least this definition I put here) and everything works in cause and effect, how can you say anyone of your actions were not caused?

Can anyone help figure this out?

[CST]

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Hmm, you know I feel you've just picked the best quote to support my position, right? Man decides what he wants to do, God decides what actually happens. The former, of course, is meaningless because only the second plays out. it can play out, I think in one of the following three ways:

It doesn't God opposes or does not support it and man's idea never gets off the ground.
God supports man in the pursuit of his idea and it comes to fruition because of God.
God actively drives the man in pursuing another idea which is what actually comes to pass as caused by God.

And I agree with this too, but mostly once we are "being saved". Or actually, I guess what I'm trying to show a distinction of.. when the steps are toward carrying out abuses and oppressions, or murders etc.. God may move His hand out of the way, so to speak. But those steps I cannot believe He orders.. Allows, yes.. What I try to point out to ppl who criticize God because of the state of the world or because of specific sufferings, is, if God interferes in one thing, wouldn't He be expected to interfere in all things? And then what would ever be learned?  :2c:

Of course the proverb asserts God can upset any plans! :thumbsup:

But that's the problem, John F Kennedy was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald (allegedly) but God would hardly have allowed this if His intent for JFK's steps was that he remained President, whether or not JFK remains President has a huge effect on history or else the office of President isn't up to much. God can allow or prevent Lee Harvey Oswald assassinating President Kennedy which has different effects. Either he can prevent Oswald from shooting JFK by interfering with the event or He can talk to his heart to dissuade him from murder. In the first of these case Oswald is exactly the same man who actually murdered JFK, he just failed, in the second he is not. This reality is a major obstacle for free will.

[WhiteWings]

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Hmm, you know I feel you've just picked the best quote to support my position, right? Man decides what he wants to do, God decides what actually happens. The former, of course, is meaningless because only the second plays out. it can play out,

Read reply #10

[marie glen]

Amen..


The way I think of it free will would be utter freedom to do whatever and whenever.. anything and everything one would want.. but if nothing else circumstances (and ability :laughing7: ) will interfere with that.

But to think humans are like robots and have no power of choice whatsoever seems a bit inaccurate to me (that was the nicest way I could say it, lol).

When ppl talk about this however, I think often the thinking is black and white - that there is only -

free will - oR - robot like

But there’s (surely) in reality an in between the two extremes-

free will - able to make choices (THANK-fully, limited) - robot like

And as to verses.. He chose us not vice versa.. but also is the verse, for example in Deuteronomy which says “choose life”.. (“I have set before thee, life or death..” And it was choose obedience or disobedience!)

Otherwise Hitler, Stalin, Pol pot, Satan, Idi Amin, etc, could all say “God made me do it..”

[CST]

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Hmm, you know I feel you've just picked the best quote to support my position, right? Man decides what he wants to do, God decides what actually happens. The former, of course, is meaningless because only the second plays out. it can play out,

Read reply #10

Yeah, again I think that kind of proves my point. Here's why:

The destination is predestined, the route isn't.

:iagree:

Pro 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

And I agree with this too, but mostly once we are "being saved". Or actually, I guess what I'm trying to show a distinction of.. when the steps are toward carrying out abuses and oppressions, or murders etc.. God may move His hand out of the way, so to speak. But those steps I cannot believe He orders.. Allows, yes..

I think ancient Israel is a good example of what I mean.
A] Destination.
God decided Israel is His (bride).
B] Route
Israel messed up several time.
God allowed their rebellion.
For a while. Then He starts pushing them back to their destination with prophets, wars, exiles and other events.

The beginning of Israel messing up seemed to be the rebellion of the spies which resulted in Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years until that who;e generation dies. ET proponents love this; they think it's an object lesson in Eternal Damnation where because of their rebellion the Israelites roam the wilderness until their death and never enter the promised land. Likewise we sinner who follow them roamthe wildernes of our lives until we die and never get to enter Heaven.

Of course, taken to it's conclusion this would suggest people can enter Heaven sin in Heaven and after many generations try God's patience and be kicked out of Heaven and wander around a bit until only a remnant survives which returns to Heaven whereupon the whole process stats all over again. Obviously this idea sounds a bit nonsense.

But all the same there is a huge problem for Free Will here because of the question of who's will it was to doubt God here and the suggest that that forty years arre historically meaningless.

Obviously a lot of the Jews that rebelled did so because they were influence by the bad report of the spies which influence their thinking and reduced whatever volition their may have had. Some spies would also have had a strong influence on the other spies.

The consequence was that the Israelites went into the promised land 40 years later than they might have done toi slaughter them and as such a generation of Canaanites were born that otherwise would not exist and now owe their existence in some regard to Israel's sin. UR says God must now save these people He didn't intend to exist. Alternatively ET saus they'll all go to Hell forever and Israel's sin has inflicted endless misery on a whole generation of people. Both these positions sound morally dubious.

The only way for man to be saved is to repent and turn to God but the Bible doesn't ever suggest the God is present in Canaan to do so. Certainly there is strong pressure there for the Canaanites not to do so and continue to follow the false faiths of those nations. Free Will is a big problem where God has not revealed Himself although if God had not revealed Himself He has also not revealed the law and those not under the law are supposedly innocent. So how does God justify their deaths? This question is a huge problem for free will.

Maybe there was a reason I did not respond before  :icon_jokercolor:

Alright, I was reading Craig's(called studier on here now) arguments for "free will" or rather "freedom of the will" and probably changed some of my thoughts on this.

A quote:

Speaking of better, let us talk to those who are passively letting themselves go to destruction if they are better for it? Let us talk to those who have gone mindlessly into situations which kill them, because they felt it was God's will for them?

It is not God's will that any be sick or perishing; people are sick and perishing so God has given us healing and the Resurrection. It is not God's will that any be destroyed, but people are destroyed and it God's will they are reconciled and restored.

Not many in all the Sovereignty conversations and discussions, have ever come up with a valid reason why any would be sick and perishing, which is not a result of man's free-will or an action which enables man's free-will, so that God is glofied when man submits to Him and is made well.


First, there is no resisting the devil if you do not SUBMIT TO GOD.

Second, if Free-Will is a myth, there IS no reason to do anything because it was meant to be.

Third, since Free-will exists, we must submit to God, resist the devil and he will flee.

And, a little summary quote of some of his arguments:

IS IT THE WILL OF GOD THAT ANY BE SICK?

IS IT THE WILL OF THE DEVIL THAT ANY SHOULD BE HEALED?

It gets a bit tricky, as you may say that you have free will(at least this definition I put here) and everything works in cause and effect, how can you say anyone of your actions were not caused?

But then, if that is true, how can anyone be accountable and responsible? (you cannot have one without the other, from definition I saw) All you could say is "this caused me to do it" and blame it on everything else. What would make us different than robots? We would just be more sophisticated robots.

Indeed we are. No one can 'passively' go to destruction if they go to destruction according to their Free Will because by definition their Free Will is an actively component, to choose to do or not to do are both active decisions ultimately even if the latter may be very lazy. That's what makes Free Will 'free'.

On the second point that is mistaken. There is always reason to do things for there is always reason and reason is what rules out Free Will in that no-one makes random arbitrary decisions.

For Free Will to be true you need two things.

First, you need a real possibility of choosing between two or more different options such that only the choice is made you might easily choose the other one.

Second you need to be able to do so without fear of negative consequence or punishment in regards to to your decisions. Or else your choice could be infringed.

Neither of these things are true.

People make choices for reasons, and the vast number of the choices we make are actioned in our mind long before we are called to action them in the world. If we hold it to be a rational choice it will be the one we have reasoned is the 'best' choice to make, rightly or wrongly. if it is an irrational choice it will be probably be the one that scares or least or the the one we believe will be the least difficult or challenging to execute in some regards.

This impairs our ability to make 'free' decisions very drastically becuae it is determined by our very specific knowledge and understanding of the circumstances coupled with the singular way our brains work which result in the decision or decisions we make.

How can anyone be accountable and responsible? Because while they do not have 'free' will, they do have 'independent' will. god did not make them do it.

This is the problem, the idea behind free will is that we have the power in us to make good decisions but despite this we make bad ones. God then acts to correct us by punishment so that we learn to make good decisions next time however this reasoning is flawed.

Why, because in actual fact we don't need the lesson we learned and can gain little to nothing from it in in these circumstance because it was already in our power to make the right decision we just chose not to. We can't learn that we made the wrong decision if we knew it was wrong and could have chosen differently before we made it so the lesson doesn't help.

It is our helpless to stop ourselves from sinning even though we would want to because we know it would be better for us and all if we did that mean the negative consequences of sin can imparts lessons and corrections on us. it is when we see the consequences we formerly couldn't recognise that we can begin the process of turning away.

To actually have the power to not sin and sin anyway suggests we don't really care about not sinning and therefore provides no reason to think we will ever start to care in the future.

Since you do not know the definition of free-will but assume that free is an absolute rather then the being part of a noun phrase called free-will, you will assume that free-will means you are abosultely free to do what ever you want and like without obstacle. That is not what free-will means, it is not the power to do anything, it is freedom to think of something with the ability to try and the power is limited to what you can do. You cannot will that you are a billionaire instantly, but some have had a goal to be a millionaire and achieved it. They had the will to do something, and accomplished what they wanted, that is free-will. You cannot choose when, where, why, you were born. You can choose when, where, why, you retire, there are things that might prevent you from achieving what you want, that does not mean you have no free-will, it means you have obstacles to overcome, or submit too.

And

Right, but they do have a free-will, however the choice to follow God is not there but they have many other choices in life which they can utilize. Kill Jim, or kill Joe; not kill Jim, not kill Joe. Seek revenge on a wrong given, or grant mercy at at a wrong given.

And

Free-will is not our own sovereignty, it means you have choices. Having Free-Will is not 'we are god', it was the choice to eat of the tree or not, which is free-will. When will people realize this? Adam did not recieve free-will after he disobeyed the command; it was a result of free-will that he could! Free-will is the cause, and we have all be seeing the consequences of Adam's sin.

Our will is limited, His will is unlimited. Our will will die, His will is immortal. So as long as you live, you have free-will, nd you are therefore responsible and accountable for everything and thus suffer the consequences of your deeds and actions, and so will your family and so will those around you. That is why we are to submit to God, and resist the devil. If we submit to God, we don't give up our accountability or responsibility, but we do give up our power to God, who will make the crooked pathes straight again. A Sovereign Lord is responsible for correcting his subjects, not excusing their evil behaviors.

What I see here is an inability still to accept one's own actions and behaviors as their own.

Those should help. Still thinking about this myself  :Peace2:

Edit: I think this is a better translation:

Pro 16:9  A person plans his way, but the LORD directs his steps.

Pro 16:9 A man's heart devises his way, Yet Yahweh establishes his steps.

Becoming a billionaire is such a hard thing to do. It requires so many abilities and if you get their you then need to use your wealth constructively. All choices and all your freedoms are limited by both your desires and your abilities. If you have the desire but not the requisite abilities then your 'free will' in that regard is useless and you may as well question if you have it at all.

There is one quote in the Bible and a related quote, perhaps, that completely killed my belief in Free Will it reads as follows:

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself." (2 Timothy 2:11-13)

This is a very important statement. God'as claim that He cannot deny Himself, means He cannot chose to be evil or sinful or unloving. He does not have that freedom. He cannot act outside His character and to suggest we can suggests that in at least one regard we are greater than God even the consequences are horrific. That cannot be true and God will is not unlimited, it is limited in the way Paul says here and thus ours must be too.

[MusicLover123]

I feel there is still a misunderstanding to what are thinking of free will. What I'm thinking is:

Free will is not "I am god and I can make choices without being limited by anything." It is more "I make choices based on my abilities." No matter how limiting those circumstances are, unless you can only do one thing/choice, there would be things to choose from.

Maybe the term "free" is a bit deceptive in this sense, and "limited will would better describe it.

For example, if I were a prisoner, and I was put in a cell extremely small, and can either only sit on the bed, or on the floor. Can I choose to sit on the ceiling, or outside the cell bars, no matter how much willpower I have? No, but I am free to choose between sitting on the bed or on the floor.

Imagine a criminal goes on a shooting spree, rapes a lot of women, and steals from stores. In court, he says that God and the environment made him do it. You may say, well let's give him jail time and a fine. You can't do that though! He was just a mere puppet pulled by the strings! How is he responsible or accountable for any of it, if he did none of it himself?

You may say, how did God do it? Well, isn't God the one in control of everything? If He did not stop it, He, or the Devil, must have caused this to happen.

[marie glen]

"Free will" is not a phrase that is in the bible.

"Limited will" would, I agree, be a much closer phrase.. as to what is reality.

One reality i'd like to point out, is that God does not and will not, have to account to anybody. Did He know Israel would disobey and not enter Canaan? If we use both the Word (He "is perfect") and logic, we'd surely have to say yes. So.. obviously there is a lesson there. Ours to prayerfully find.. And He began Israel in the land in a whole new generation/generating.. Not quite so fresh from Egypt (for one thing?)

Deuteronomy 30:19,20 - 19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

This, to me, strongly implies the ability to make choices. Thankfully very limited.. which the myths of goings on with 'the gods' is imagination as to some things which could occur if choice was unlimited!? :mshock: :faint:

Why can't God be in complete control.. and be allowing choices - other than His - to exist, and run their course ?

[marie glen]

You may say, how did God do it? Well, isn't God the one in control of everything? If He did not stop it, He, or the Devil, must have caused this to happen.

It's my belief our Father has done all things just as He has, in order to bring about the best of all possible 'end' results.

That He "is perfect" (Mt.5:48) ...or He too would fade..? A natural law being that all and anything imperfect, cannot endure!? He being life, of course? and also Perfection. Utter perfection. Perfect makes no mistakes, cannot be taken by surprise by anything :laughing7: and cannot lose anything. Surely? And so.. can engineer things in such a way that "all in heaven and earth" learn good from evil (life from death) all together at once.. And - in the process - He is writing His law upon every heart, mind and psyche of all in heaven and earth.. How would you (speaking generally) create an un-breakable (en-during) paradise perfection?

[MusicLover123]

Why can't God be in complete control.. and be allowing choices - other than His - to exist, and run their course ?

I agree with this. I think the trouble comes when trying to describe it, without making it fatalism, or hyper Calvinism, and having people responsible for their actions.

It seems, as God is perfect, this is the best way to do things.

You know, Scripture doesn't mention cars. But they still exist.  :icon_jokercolor:

[marie glen]

Why can't God be in complete control.. and be allowing choices - other than His - to exist, and run their course ?

I agree with this. I think the trouble comes when trying to describe it, without making it fatalism, or hyper Calvinism, and having people responsible for their actions.

It seems, as God is perfect, this is the best way to do things.

You know, Scripture doesn't mention cars. But they still exist.  :icon_jokercolor:

Unless we reckon a verse in Isaiah 2(?) as having relevance to today.. "your land is full of chariots" :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor:

[MusicLover123]

Why can't God be in complete control.. and be allowing choices - other than His - to exist, and run their course ?

I agree with this. I think the trouble comes when trying to describe it, without making it fatalism, or hyper Calvinism, and having people responsible for their actions.

It seems, as God is perfect, this is the best way to do things.

You know, Scripture doesn't mention cars. But they still exist.  :icon_jokercolor:

Unless we reckon a verse in Isaiah 2(?) as having relevance to today.. "your land is full of chariots" :laughing7: :icon_jokercolor:

:talkangry:  :laughing7:

[CST]

I feel there is still a misunderstanding to what are thinking of free will. What I'm thinking is:

Free will is not "I am god and I can make choices without being limited by anything." It is more "I make choices based on my abilities." No matter how limiting those circumstances are, unless you can only do one thing/choice, there would be things to choose from.

Maybe the term "free" is a bit deceptive in this sense, and "limited will would better describe it.

For example, if I were a prisoner, and I was put in a cell extremely small, and can either only sit on the bed, or on the floor. Can I choose to sit on the ceiling, or outside the cell bars, no matter how much willpower I have? No, but I am free to choose between sitting on the bed or on the floor.

Imagine a criminal goes on a shooting spree, rapes a lot of women, and steals from stores. In court, he says that God and the environment made him do it. You may say, well let's give him jail time and a fine. You can't do that though! He was just a mere puppet pulled by the strings! How is he responsible or accountable for any of it, if he did none of it himself?

You may say, how did God do it? Well, isn't God the one in control of everything? If He did not stop it, He, or the Devil, must have caused this to happen.

In this case you seems to be misunderstanding what I'm saying free will is. I'm not saying that it's just saying 'God made me do it' He didn't but that's not the point. God declares to us: "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it." (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Now God can do all things and be thwarted in nothing He dedicates Himself to. If God says He will give us the strength to resists temptation and, by extension, overcome sin, and in fact find we do not have the strength and submit to temptation how then can we not turn to God and say "you did not do what you said you would do?' There's got to be a limit to this but people can always blame God if they fail to not sin because God makes so many boast to being so much more powerful. It doesn't matter whether we have free will or not, God allows us to succumb to sin for a reason and that reason must be somehow to our benefit as individuals or He wouldn't bother and He'd stop us. It's easy to blame God because we sin, He's sovereign and we like to expect He should do better. Atheists claim God doesn't exist because, among other things, there's so much evil in the universe God duty bound to stop and and doesn't so God can't be good and loving so doesn't exist. The fact we put the evil in the universe means nothing to them because they believe a good and loving God would be duty bound to get rid of evil whatever the cost to us because evil is so bad.

Blaming God is easy, you have to get past this problem and I can and I can. I don't believe in free will, I have to make my decision on some sort of rational foundation based on who I am. If I could make different decisions, I wouldn't be me. If God forced or compelled me to change my decisions i wouldn't be me. It's when people realise this that they realise  the futility in believing in free will and blaming God for their bad decisions.

[jugghead]

The destination is predestined, the route isn't.

:thumbsup:

[GodIsLove]

I've said this before...

Our will is constrained and influenced by so many things:

Our genetics, epigenetics (our genes are affected by environmental factors) our upbringing, our culture, our family, our peers, our brains (mental health etc), how much sleep we have gotten, our environment, our education, our religion, past experiences like trauma, how we are treated by others, our emotions, our stress, the substances we put in our bodies, even sugar, coffee, alcohol etc...

Additionally, God's will influences us IF and WHEN he chooses to do so, and "who can resist his will?"

I posted a study about how people were trained to feel peace within themselves and then they were positioned strategically within a war torn country and told to feel peace at the same time and during that time a measurable drop or ceasing of war, violence and crime were observed, meaning we are even influenced by those around us on a more subtle level.

Then if you believe in angels and demons or whatber they represent, that is a potential influencer.

So I believe we make choices but they are so intertwined with the above factors that we can't truly say "free" will.

In the shower today I was struck with the idea that God designed it this way so that we cannot blame ourselves or others, but instead it is "sin" that is to blame, and "sin" is a rippling effect that permeates everything which is why it is not one person's "fault" when bad things happen, rather the entire creation is missing the mark. It comes back to judging sin but not the person doing the act...judging sin meaning discerning what is and is not sinful based on if it is or is not loving God or others.

This discernment is the learning process.

But it's why the Bible states none are righteous and all have sinned and the creation was subjected to futility.

I hope this makes sense and helps.