Article

[JamesH]

How would you respond to this article? - http://freethinkingministries.com/true-love-free-will-the-logic-of-hell/

[MusicLover123]

1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 1
who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages

God does not lie, so why would He say He would do something if He is lying about it?

Unless you show me a verse saying that God will NOT have all men be saved, the conclusion is inevitable!

I bet that guy wouldn't be smiling gleefully if he realized how perverted and outrageous these kinds of beliefs are. Or, maybe they are perverted enough to enjoy imagining that.

Love is found in Jesus Christ, not apart from Him! If you really want to know what love is, look at God and His Son first. Then, look at 1 Corinthians 13. Especially that it keeps no record of wrongs.

Do these people really believe the Scriptures? No. Give them one of these verses, and that will really show what they actually believe.

I recommend, if you are searching for articles like these, to not anymore. Why? It is unprofitable!

Focus on these things, friend.

Phillipians 4
8As to the rest, brethren, as many things as are true, as many as [are] grave(dignity), as many as [are] righteous, as many as [are] pure, as many as [are] lovely, as many as [are] of good report, if any worthiness, and if any praise, these things think upon;
9the things that also ye did learn, and receive, and hear, and saw in me, those do, and the God of the peace shall be with you.
13For all things I have strength, in Christ's strengthening me

[GodIsLove]

1 Timothy 2
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 1
who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages

God does not lie, so why would He say He would do something if He is lying about it?

Unless you show me a verse saying that God will NOT have all men be saved, the conclusion is inevitable!

I bet that guy wouldn't be smiling gleefully if he realized how perverted and outrageous these kinds of beliefs are. Or, maybe they are perverted enough to enjoy imagining that.

Love is found in Jesus Christ, not apart from Him! If you really want to know what love is, look at God and His Son first. Then, look at 1 Corinthians 13. Especially that it keeps no record of wrongs.

Do these people really believe the Scriptures? No. Give them one of these verses, and that will really show what they actually believe.

I recommend, if you are searching for articles like these, to not anymore. Why? It is unprofitable!

Focus on these things, friend.

Phillipians 4
8As to the rest, brethren, as many things as are true, as many as [are] grave(dignity), as many as [are] righteous, as many as [are] pure, as many as [are] lovely, as many as [are] of good report, if any worthiness, and if any praise, these things think upon;
9the things that also ye did learn, and receive, and hear, and saw in me, those do, and the God of the peace shall be with you.
13For all things I have strength, in Christ's strengthening me

:thumbsup:

Full disclosure: I didn't read the article.

Because like ML quoted from scripture, I try to think and look and absorb things that are right and true.

Edit: I just now skimmed the first paragraph and got this quote:

If God created humanity to know, love, and enjoy a personal relationship with him forever,[4] God would not force anyone to do something that was against his or her will.

Likely true. But this quoted underestimates God immensely. People tend to anthropomorphize God and make him in OUR Earthly image.

Romans 11
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom andi knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"j
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?"k
36For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

It's funny because once I truly believed in UR with the security that it is without a doubt true, I could cite SO many passages to support it. Someone should create a comprehensive list of all of them if we haven't already.

It takes time to find and copy and paste it all again and again! Silly me that I don't just save them somewhere.

Things like God is Love...love never fails...God wills all to be saved...He is the savior of the world...God will be all in all...etc.

The logic of hell is a terrible title, as hell is the most illogical carnal idea ever to have existed. If anyone truly thinks it's logical they need to remember: the wisdom of man is foolishness to God, His ways are higher than our ways, and lean not on our own understanding. Scripture and spirit speak to UR, carnality and death speak to ET. It's as simple as that.

The logic is that if we came from God we are a part of Him no matter how far we think we have strayed he is always there pursuing us and loving us.

If there is a hell and if people willfully put themselves there God cannot be satisfied to let them stay there for all eternity, and I believe He will constantly reach to those individuals in ways that he knows will call them back to him, even if it takes an instant or eons.

Parable of the lost sheep, prodigal son etc. Think of how we would react if our own child was separated from us and broken and lost. We are not God and we chose to give our children the best we can and God is much more loving and perfect than we currently are so how much more will he mourn the loss of his child and how much more will he love and pursue them! I would never stop loving or pursing my children.

The more I think of it the more I want to compile all verses supporting UR, even the ones that indirectly imply it. The list would be so long and inspiring!

:HeartThrob:

[MusicLover123]

It's funny because once I truly believed in UR with the security that it is without a doubt true, I could cite SO many passages to support it. Someone should create a comprehensive list of all of them if we haven't already.

The more I think of it the more I want to compile all verses supporting UR, even the ones that indirectly imply it. The list would be so long and inspiring!

I feel as though the "gathering all these verses" thing is built on a false premise. That you have all these verses for this idea, and presumably all these verses contradicting that idea, and you just gotta look at the majority. I say false, as it presumes God's Word somehow contradicts itself, even in the smallest area.

It does not contradict, it is all one!

Psalm 119
160The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!

Isaiah 28
10For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little

2 Corinthians 13
1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

I see it how that is the way of establishing truth. You don't need to gather a bunch of verses, and just hope there is enough to beat these bad verses everywhere else. If you want to, than great! But not necessary in establishing it.

On doubt, ask our Father to give you more Faith, as He is the one who gives us all that we need. But, in His time.

James 1
5and if any of you do lack wisdom, let him ask from God, who is giving to all liberally, and not reproaching, and it shall be given to him;
6and let him ask in faith, nothing doubting, for he who is doubting hath been like a wave of the sea, driven by wind and tossed,
7for let not that man suppose that he shall receive anything from the Lord

One example:

Romans 5
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Titus 2
11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Ephesians 2
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Romans
29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable

Irrevocable–adjective
not to be revoked or recalled; unable to be repealed or annulled; unalterable: an irrevocable decree.

Here are more versions of that verse:

Rom 11:29 God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or forget about the people he has chosen. Contemorary English Version
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. English Majority Text Version
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. English Standard Version
Rom 11:29 God never changes his mind when he gives gifts or when he calls someone. God's Word
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. King James Version
Rom 11:29 For God is not changeable in his free gift and in his calling. James Murdock New Testament
Rom 11:29 For God does not repent of His free gifts nor of His call; 1912 Weymouth New Testament
Rom 11:29 for unrepented of are the gifts and the calling of God; Young's Literal Translation

See? God's gift has been given to everyone, along with His Grace. Can someone use "free will" to turn these back? Nope! Reminds me of this verse:

Isaiah 45
23I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear

[GodIsLove]

Yeah, I don't believe any support ET when properly translated and interpreted...it's not that I want to weigh ET against UR to see who wins, it's that I want to compile all UR verses to SHOW the whole you are referring to.

[MusicLover123]

OK, I understand.

Not sure that I will be the one to do that, but I do know that 77 verses thing exists on here.

Do you use Esword? I do, and it is quite helpful. If you don't, then I could list some links here for it.

[GodIsLove]

Cool. You gathered a few good ones anyway!

[jugghead]

How would you respond to this article? - http://freethinkingministries.com/true-love-free-will-the-logic-of-hell/

A choice made out of "the fear of death" (or the fear of going to hell) is a choice based on fear.

Is "fear" our rock upon which "we" built our house?
OR
Is "Love" our rock upon which "He" builds our house?

"fear" is the shifting sands of "what do I have to do next?"
WHEREAS
"Love" is the rock of "I have been given rest (rest = peace in the mind)."

[MusicLover123]

Good thoughts Jugghead. Reminds me of this verse:

1 John 4
18fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love

GodisLove, here is some links :)

https://www.e-sword.net

http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-downloads/file/2651-concordant-literal-version-clt-2003bblxexe/

http://alampthatburns.net/e-sword/eswmods.htm

[jugghead]

Good thoughts Jugghead. Reminds me of this verse:

1 John 4
18fear is not in the love, but the perfect love doth cast out the fear, because the fear hath punishment, and he who is fearing hath not been made perfect in the love

GodisLove, here is some links :)

https://www.e-sword.net

http://www.biblesupport.com/e-sword-downloads/file/2651-concordant-literal-version-clt-2003bblxexe/

http://alampthatburns.net/e-sword/eswmods.htm

I use Esword also, I find it to be an invaluable tool for understanding

[Lazarus Short]

How would you respond to this article? - http://freethinkingministries.com/true-love-free-will-the-logic-of-hell/

A choice made out of "the fear of death" (or the fear of going to hell) is a choice based on fear.

Is "fear" our rock upon which "we" built our house?
OR
Is "Love" our rock upon which "He" builds our house?

"fear" is the shifting sands of "what do I have to do next?"
WHEREAS
"Love" is the rock of "I have been given rest (rest = peace in the mind)."

The above reminds me of First Corinthians 3:11 - For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If your foundation is Jesus the Christ, it must be LOVE, not fear.

[marie glen]

How would you respond to this article? - http://freethinkingministries.com/true-love-free-will-the-logic-of-hell/

:mshock" what horrible 'logic'! No concern for (supposed) unimaginable torment suffered for ever and ever.. :doh:

:thumbsup:

Full disclosure: I didn't read the article.

Because like ML quoted from scripture, I try to think and look and absorb things that are right and true.

Edit: I just now skimmed the first paragraph and got this quote:

If God created humanity to know, love, and enjoy a personal relationship with him forever,[4] God would not force anyone to do something that was against his or her will.

Likely true. But this quoted underestimates God immensely. People tend to anthropomorphize God and make him in OUR Earthly image.

Romans 11
33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom andi knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"j
35"Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?"k
36For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.

It's funny because once I truly believed in UR with the security that it is without a doubt true, I could cite SO many passages to support it. Someone should create a comprehensive list of all of them if we haven't already.

It takes time to find and copy and paste it all again and again! Silly me that I don't just save them somewhere.

Things like God is Love...love never fails...God wills all to be saved...He is the savior of the world...God will be all in all...etc.

The logic of hell is a terrible title, as hell is the most illogical carnal idea ever to have existed. If anyone truly thinks it's logical they need to remember: the wisdom of man is foolishness to God, His ways are higher than our ways, and lean not on our own understanding. Scripture and spirit speak to UR, carnality and death speak to ET. It's as simple as that.

The logic is that if we came from God we are a part of Him no matter how far we think we have strayed he is always there pursuing us and loving us.

If there is a hell and if people willfully put themselves there God cannot be satisfied to let them stay there for all eternity, and I believe He will constantly reach to those individuals in ways that he knows will call them back to him, even if it takes an instant or eons.

Parable of the lost sheep, prodigal son etc. Think of how we would react if our own child was separated from us and broken and lost. We are not God and we chose to give our children the best we can and God is much more loving and perfect than we currently are so how much more will he mourn the loss of his child and how much more will he love and pursue them! I would never stop loving or pursing my children.

The more I think of it the more I want to compile all verses supporting UR, even the ones that indirectly imply it. The list would be so long and inspiring!

:HeartThrob:

I didn't get any further than the second paragraph either! though I skimmed just a little, the next one, and that logic, to me, is no logic!

So strange anyone would seek to defend and support the idea of a 'hell'..

:thumbsup: This is the 77 verses thread - http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063

I also think UR is indirectly written in many verses also.. And of course there may be more verses also.. idk.

And if not, 77 is nothing to sneeze at!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Psalm 22:27 - All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.

When? Like w/ all generations, not during this brief lifetime.. so, when?

[JamesH]

Thanks to all who responded  :thumbsup: