Your worm will never die

[Hannibal Flavius]

There are a lot of idioms that are almost lost to us today but everyone has heard about the worm that never dies.

What is it?

[GodIsLove]

Interesting background to the idiom...

But are you arguing for annihilation? If the seed/worm never dies and never receives water?

[GodIsLove]

Ok, I understand. I agree that there isn't just two categories: saved and damned. There are many levels of spiritual growth and nearness and farness from living out Christ's message. I tend to think the wailing and gnashing of teeth is regret as well. I don't know what it all will be like but I put my trust in the God I have experienced to be Love. I am not "there" yet as having arrived at the final destination of spiritual evolution, I learn more and unlearn lots as time goes on.

[marie glen]

I haven't finished reading what's posted yet.. but this made me want to look up "worms" at https://www.biblegateway.com

[ https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=worm&qs_version=NIV%3BAMP%3BKJV%3BNKJV%3BYLT&limit=100 ]

As this phrase has always been a mystery to me.. the first verse I read was about the manna and how they didn't listen to Moses and left it out over night and worms were then in it.. but on sabbath it lasted or lasted for sabbath that is..

And then I remembered there was discussion on this not so long ago.. that worms eat decay.. so as long as there's corruption, then there's the worms.. It must have been, or I'm thinking likely it was a saying or something in those days.. with a particular meaning (worms and decay? corruption) rather than it being the first time it was spoken when said by Jesus..

I'm always interested about things about Tabernacles (as my sig may suggest) and I do pray for the "reign of Tabernacles" when God Himself will Tabernacle with man!! Wow. If we think the millennium will be something.. and it sure will! But when Yahweh comes to Tabernacle with mankind.. live and dwell right with us.. :cloud9:

...back to reading..

[marie glen]

...I was reading this - from Job chapter 21

23 One person dies in full vigor,
    completely secure and at ease,
24 well nourished in body,
    bones rich with marrow.
25 Another dies in bitterness of soul,
    never having enjoyed anything good.
26 Side by side they lie in the dust,
    and worms cover them both.

This is of course, is a description of the grave.
This phrase which gets used, or is assumed to mean 'hell'
Is about the grave.

      :banana: :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

There is salvation and it is extremely broad in my opinion, but salvation in the outer court is not actually a part of the temple proper.

You can be saved but salvation without reward would leave one weeping in the court because of what could have been.

           :faint: oh dear.

I think you may be right about some things here! ..I would envision such to be during - Judgment 'Day'.. which I think of as an age.

....Because of the pattern of the days - if Jesus first advent fulfilled ancient Israel's Spring Holy Days, then.. i'm thinking His long 2nd advent will fullfill the Fall Holy Days of Trumpets - Day Of Atonement - Tabernacles.

With the 3 holy days representing the 3 peaks of his 2nd advent.

Now, if the 10 days between Trumpets and Day of Atonement represents 1000 years between His return and Judgment Day, then the 5 days between Day of Atonement and Tabernacles represents 500 years between Judgement Day and Tabernacles when the Father will now "Tabernacle with man" live with, dwell with mankind. Leaving plenty of room (time) for some serious review of human (and angel) history.

If we look at the Day Of Atonement in Leviticus 23, it was a collective day of some serious remorse.. a national day of repentance and weeping..

....And forgiveness. I think this is where the parable about Lazarus and the rich man fits in.. and what you wrote -

It is my opinion that a person who receives no rain for the last harvest, the grape harvest, that person doesn't go to hell where his worm never dies, but I think that he lives amongst people who have received rain and people who have been transformed that you would see light coming from them and this would be a type of hell knowing that you did not obtain..

I've come to kind of envision people of the 2nd resurrection, who "died still in their sins" so will rise still in their sins (arriving doa, dead on arrival, for doa, day of atonement).. not as joyful of a resurrection.. for a time.. with all degrees and length of weeping and gnashing of teeth..

...the small and the great.. I even have come to think that for the many - who weren't horrible despots, etc -  it will be exactly like it was for us! (Is this extreme? Have I finally lost it? :laughing7: no, it's logic. Do we know who and what sort of Spirit we are dealing with? (I think there's a verse that says that. :dontknow: ) Love. That's the truest essence of "the Spirit we have to do with".

...and let me tell you a 'secret'.. the two in revelation chapter 19, who are thrown "alive" into the lake of fire. They are not persons or beings at all. But are institutions of man 'active' at the time of Jesus' return. One is the world beast/body and the other is a false teaching/prophecy which has turned christendom on its ear (causing the great falling away). I'm not sure if anybody goes to the lake of fire. Maybe the devil and his angels. All just my two cents of course.
      :Peace2: God bless!

[marie glen]

WOW Maria, You made me suddenly think of so much at one time that I don't even have the words, just clicking. So much more there isn't it.

..that's kind of how I felt about your post! :thumbsup:


The Lord and His Word is so clever.. so rich..

[marie glen]

The kingdom of heaven is like leaven that a woman took and hid in 3 measures of meal and these are the 3 harvest that mankind walks in. The barley, the wheat, and the fruit.

I didn't know that! that Israel had 3 harvests, I knew the barley and wheat..

I also think of the 3 harvests like the verses 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 (condensed) - "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits[1], afterward those who are Christ's at His coming[2]. 24 Then comes the end[3], when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father... that God may be all in all." (the grape harvest.. when he treads the grapes (of wrath).. the not yet saved.. then is the 2nd resurrection, 'day' of judgment, weeping, possible gnashing and reconciliation, vivified made new when Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father.

I doubt there is much any one of us can do that keeps us away from the grand mercy of God, I seriously doubt it, God is love pure and simple and just as Jonah knew, God is going to save those people.

It's mirrors and smoke.

           :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

they are weeping because Rosh Hashanah came ...and they did not receive the memorial between their eyes and upon their right hand as God had promised

    3 sections

I've been pondering some along these lines too.. the outer court.. not all believers will 'take an office' :dontknow: (2 sections implied)

all those of the 2nd resurrection after the 1000year millennium (3rd section)

which offering was the barley offering.. it was the "Firstfruits" wave offering.. a single sheaf of barley.. (I'm thinking)

and the wheat offering was Pentecost..? (the Holy Spirit in and upon believers) wheat harvest..

grape harevest.. treading the grapes, Rev 14.. two harvests in the 2nd half of rev 14.  Jesus coming on the cloud (which is when he send his angels to gather his elect - Mt 24:28-31) and the great winepress of the wrath of God - armageddon? in the Valley of Hinnom..

:Peace2: :thumbsup: God bless! (very interesting discussion)

[micah7:9]

Job 14  :Peace2:

[James Zimmerman]

A different perspective here.  In Mark 9:43-50 Jesus is teaching about the unquenchable fire, and the undying worm.  He tells us to cut off our hand, or take out our eye if it causes us to stumble.  It is better to enter into the Reign of God(Young's translation), than be cast to Gehenna. 

We now know that Hell is a myth.  Jesus says something interesting in Mark 9:49.  He says,"Everyone will be salted by fire."  Based on the teaching that Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you(Luke 17:21), I believe Jesus is referring to an experiential state of the soul.  Why do people commit suicide?  They were in torment by fears,remorse,sorrows, pain, loneliness, depression, the fire unquenchable,the worm that never dies. 

I have been struggling with anxiety for a few years... In extreme cases, I have clenched my teeth, wept and prayed.    The parables and figurative teaching of our Saviour hit home for me. God bless!

[darryl]

an earthly worm dies but not the worm in gehenna, which does not die  ?..hmmm..eternal worm ?..almost sounds comical in a way..but seriously, aren't worms sometimes used medicinally to eat decayed flesh ?..is the worm in gehenna part of Gods healing process ?..to eat away the corrupt part of the soul ?..and it doesn't die cos it's an agent of God's restorative process ?...hmmm, if so it's quite a good metaphor....still, don't know for sure..just my opinion.

[darryl]

been reading up on this a bit...a good answer from the UR perspective is that Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 which mentions the worms that will not die but does not say that the  worms are eating people alive forever in some kind of hideous eternal hell..
◄ Isaiah 66:24 ►
"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."
read this for a good perspective on it.
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/08/worms-and-fire-the-rabbis-or-isaiah/
http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/11/the-fire-is-not-quenched-annihilation-and-mark-948-part-2/

[James Zimmerman]

Nice work brother!  Those who reject God end in destruction and shame.  The Apostle Paul says he who sows to the flesh will reap destruction.(Gal. 5)  Gehenna was also a place of fear, shame, and destruction.  So it makes perfect sense that the Lord would use Gehenna along with the undying worm and unquenchable fire!   Thanks for the insight!  Didn't know that particular expression was in the OT. also.

[James Zimmerman]

What Jesus said in Mark 9:49 about everyone will be salted by fire could be that those who are seeking God will be refined by the fire.  We must face and learn from the consequences of our failures.  But those who refuse to turn from wickedness will end up in utter destruction, like the verse mentioned in Isiah.  Wanted to share that final thought.  God bless my brethren!

[darryl]

Nice work brother!  Those who reject God end in destruction and shame.  The Apostle Paul says he who sows to the flesh will reap destruction.(Gal. 5)  Gehenna was also a place of fear, shame, and destruction.  So it makes perfect sense that the Lord would use Gehenna along with the undying worm and unquenchable fire!   Thanks for the insight!  Didn't know that particular expression was in the OT. also.

no problem !..this stuff helps me also !  :Peace2:

[DavidFord]

I tend to think the wailing and gnashing of teeth is regret as well.

I view wailing as well wailing/crying.  I view gnashing of teeth as anger, e.g. when some got upset at Stephen and gnashed their teeth at him and killed him. The author of the very scary _A Land Unknown:  Hell's Dominion_ B.W. Melvin said on a youtube video he saw Hitler in hell in flames, and very angry.  Some seemed regretful about having hurt others, e.g. one guy wondered why he'd ever sent an innocent man to prison.

[DavidFord]

Isaiah 66:23-24 (NABRE), biblegateway.com
23 From new moon to new moon,
    and from sabbath to sabbath,
All flesh shall come to worship
    before me, says the LORD.
24 They shall go out and see the corpses
    of the people who rebelled against me;
For their worm shall not die,
    their fire shall not be extinguished;
    and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

Judith 16:17
"Woe to the nations that rise against my people!
the Lord Almighty will requite them;
in the day of judgment he will punish them:
He will send fire and worms into their flesh,
and they will weep and suffer forever."

[marie glen]

Isaiah 66:24 - this made me curious to re-read the interlinear to follow the links back to the original words written..

Seems to read also like this - Isaiah 66:24 - "to go or come out / become known - see - corpses - the - man - rebelled/transgressed - worm/scarlet stuff - not/no - die - a fire/fiery - not/no - be extinguished - come to pass/become/be - aversion/abhorrence - (to) the whole/all - flesh.

...does this suggest the idea of a floaty resurrection kingdom existence is false, since this eternal abhorrence is to all "flesh"?

Taking all verses into consideration.. (ex., Rev 21, no more sorrow, death) I have to think it's the memory of the corpses - the end result of Godlessness, God not ruling, that will never fade/go out/be extinguished, but shall be an abhorrence unto all/the whole, forever/always.

This to me, seems to be the will of God.. a lesson driven home. :cloud9:

Judith indeed may also be prophecy.. fiery - earthly - judgment/consequences?(imo) earth covered with corpses and thus worms of them.. shall be looked upon.. known.. like the smoke of Sodom and Gomorrah, as an example of eternal fiery judgment (Jude 7) but where are the eternal flames? Not there, just hills of dust and ashes. But metaphorically - and I am definitely a bible literalist, but literal can be presented in metaphor :gsmile: - metaphorically, the smoke of Sodom and Gomorrah's burning still rises.. How? In our memories.

Great verses! :thumbsup:

[DavidFord]

like the smoke of Sodom and Gomorrah, as an example of eternal fiery judgment (Jude 7) but where are the eternal flames? Not there, just hills of dust and ashes. But metaphorically - and I am definitely a bible literalist, but literal can be presented in metaphor :gsmile: - metaphorically, the smoke of Sodom and Gomorrah's burning still rises.. How? In our memories.

The NT was originally written in Aramaic before being translated into Greek.
Three instances where l'ailm [to the world/age] clearly don't mean 'forever' are:
Rom 16:25 (mystery kept secret 'forever' but now revealed).
Jude 1:7 (Sodom and Gomorrah underwent a punishment of 'eternal' fire), and
Phil 1:15 (you have gotten Philemon back 'forever').

[marie glen]

Amen! Loved those verses pointed out (in your other post).. yet God and Truth is still forever.. And I believe this lesson, all are learning - the understanding of good from evil (life from death? true from untrue?) is a forever lesson.. I could of course not be accurate.. but I cannot shake that, to me, logical, belief. Otherwise, why bother..? :gsmile: