If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?

[marie glen]

God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

I think it is a bit more than just surrendering ourselves to Him, but ourselves dying, and Christ living in us...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Ti 1:7  for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind


1Co 15:10  and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Amen! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Sorry.. but said son and wife were here with dinner! :gsmile:

"Why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden? ..and isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" I seriously wanted much better answers to those questions.. and what they did mostly, was show to me my lack of understanding. It was like a big hole. :dontknow: :Chinscratch: I can't think of any other way to describe it, a big black hole in my understanding and perception. Darkness! :faint: I hadn't thought of it quite like that before..

I don't think anyone i've mentioned it to, believes me (and that's okay), but the answers came back to me like a series of 'bams' so to speak.. I mean, they just came. They were there. They were truth. And I knew it. (Some Native Americans, I've heard have called the Creator, or whom they call the Great Spirit, "Grandfather". I can understand that, grandfather's are gracious. "Undeserved favor" even to foolish children! Which we all are.)

The answers knocked my socks off. There's no way they originated in me. That was and is my thinking. I suppose it's too simple for some ppl.  :cloud9: but I don't think I've had a truly 'bad' day since.. not really.. and you know, life is still life. Lots of people hurting.. dying.. losing loved ones.. even drama every once in a while.. [Wouldn't it be great if you could just tell people, believe in God and have a sense of humor, and life will be awesome! So much despair in the world.. the young people being educated, some of them, into despair/unbelief..]

When truth is so beautifully simple.. (or so I believe! Of course there's plenty of complicated things involved! To say the least! :laughing7: )

Here's what I found out that day, that God Himself is life. And Perfection. Before any act of creation He could, of course, see all possibilities 'stretched out in front of His sight like a floating blanket'. :dontknow: That was the imagery that it came as.) And He has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the best of all possibilities.

When He endowed thinking ability, to angel and man, a whole new world (tree) of possibilities 'came about' (I've since learned this is an abyss/bottomless pit of possibility (rev9). With thinking ability comes choice / the ability to make choices. And since God can only be honest, there was that tree in the very midst of the garden.

Unfortunately, with rational creatures, someone sooner or later, is going to think say..? do we really have to do all things God's way..? And what happens once one chooses anything in thought, word or deed, that differs from what (perfect) God chooses? (Surely?) They become imperfect, the opposite of Life(/God/Perfection). And hence came death and all suffer.

So the remedy was "built in from the beginning/foundation".
:Chinscratch: Somewhere in this, but I can't remember exactly where, was the new idea of Judgment 'Day' being an age.. one of a great review of all history.. as to what went wrong in all ages.. and some what went right.. acts of bravery and nobility on behalf of others.. (maybe its getting underway won't be all darkness..)

True from untrue engraved upon every heart, and great day of review (and Atonement / surprise!) hammering home the lesson.. the memory of imperfection/wandering from Him, being tribulation and apocalypse will forever rise up in our consciousness like smoke rising forever and ever.. the smoke of apocalypse/fiery 'judgment' (results/consequences) rising forever.

Because God is life, He lives through, suffers, and experiences all sufferings and indignations, etc, which ever occur! Why would He put Himself through all that?! Because He's not creating an ant farm! But His own family.. of many beautiful branches.. and an un-breakable paradise perfection. Unbreakable because all will fully understand good from evil / life from death,nonlife.

I guess I haven't told this story for a while. Can you imagine this whole neatly packed - at the time - paragraph, ended with a question! (To me.) No I still cannot imagine! The question came like this - "Why did God wait so very long, and only create man and woman and the universe? Not only after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought had occurred, but until it had ripened into outright trickery and sedition?! (Didn't He know what would happen?! Of course He did! 'Waited a long time', because surely, when there was only Father and Son and His Spirit/vitality, and angels, surely there wasn't that much to go astray about?" Well, the answer came right after it, which was real good, because I, of course hadn't a clue! "faint"

.."so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together, at once. Lest one wander away now.. another later.. another later.. and still another.. later... taking virtually.. forever.. An unavoidable lesson, if there's to be thinking ability.

The 'great day of review' was emphasized to me as especially hammering home the lesson/truth once again upon the hearts, minds, and psyches of those of us who come to the faith during this life time.. :dunno2: But not that it wouldn't also do the same for those who (imo) come to belief upon Judgment 'Day'. :Chinscratch:

[Dandelion]

God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

I think it is a bit more than just surrendering ourselves to Him, but ourselves dying, and Christ living in us...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Ti 1:7  for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind


1Co 15:10  and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

To me, surrender and dying to oneself is basically the same. We must transform into a person who emulates Jesus, so self must die or surrender, so that Jesus can be all we encompass. But, we are still our own selves, in many ways, but we have shed the flesh for the Spirit of God. Each of us, like a prism, reflecting Jesus in our own, unique way.


D.

[MusicLover123]

Ah yes, Dandelion, was thinking that too.

Imagine everyone without all this carnality and fleshly mindedness, but with the mind of Christ, and perfectly wanting and doing the will of God. That is how I imagine His/Him being all in all will be. Yet, much more than that...

as I mentioned with that Increase thread.

[CST]

Then, if you do not think people understand what you are saying, then please explain it. Even if you need to, just list a couple verses or passages, and maybe then we can know more where you are thinking.

1 Corinthians 14
19but in an assembly I wish to speak five words through my understanding, that others also I may instruct, rather than myriads of words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding become ye perfect

When I gave my answer I wasn't talking to you. When you misrepresented me I felt the need to state it so the misrepresentation did not stand. Last time I got into debate with you it ended in you suggesting that you knew your Bible better than me and Jabcat had to step in. I don't get into discussion with people like that because the presumption they know scripture better than I do is an insurmountable barrier to progress and an insult to the opposite party. So I won't get into another discussion with you which is why I'm not explaining my position. It helps preserve peace on the site.   

[MusicLover123]

Well, that is your call then.

I wouldn't even call last time a debate, or even this one. More of a humbling experience on my part, but I don't remember saying that I knew the Bible better. That was my attitude before, so I apologize. I was certainly not angry, but may have appeared arrogant.

My point right now is, whatever things you may have learned from universities and whatnot you don't seem to question, and whenever someone tries to address that(I did that the wrong way before) You seem to blame everyone else, and state how they are wrong, without discerning what you "learned" in the past.

I certainly don't know Scripture better than anyone else, but by the Grace of God, there is not as much scales when it comes to reading Scripture. His Spirit should be our teacher and comforter, and will lead us in all things. Even if that includes another person.

Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another. 

[MusicLover123]

Eph 4:1  Call upon you, then, do I—the prisoner of the Lord—to walk worthily of the calling with which ye were called,
Eph 4:2  with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love,
Eph 4:3  being diligent to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of the peace;
Eph 4:4  one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5  one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6  one God and Father of all, who is over all, and through all, and in you all,
Eph 4:7  and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ

[marie glen]

... Each of us, like a prism, reflecting Jesus in our own, unique way.


D.

I love :HeartThrob: that! :cloud9: :cloud9:

Imagine everyone without all this carnality and fleshly mindedness, but with the mind of Christ, and perfectly wanting and doing the will of God. That is how I imagine (His) being all in all will be. Yet, much more than that..

:cloud9: :cloud9:

[CST]

Well, that is your call then.

I wouldn't even call last time a debate, or even this one. More of a humbling experience on my part, but I don't remember saying that I knew the Bible better. That was my attitude before, so I apologize. I was certainly not angry, but may have appeared arrogant.

:) If that's true then I'm pleased and can talk to you again. And, yes, you did appear arrogant. You were trying not to to be that, to be just made what you said seem all the more condescending. I still don't know how I'm supposed to read the last line of yours otherwise although there may be a way. Many of us have that problem of not being able to see alternative readings of things.

My point right now is, whatever things you may have learned from universities and whatnot you don't seem to question, and whenever someone tries to address that(I did that the wrong way before) You seem to blame everyone else, and state how they are wrong, without discerning what you "learned" in the past.

And you immediately seem to be in danger of going to that bad place again although I think you may be talking generally hear but the word 'you' makes it seem like you're talking specifically to me. I've never been to university I've learned nothing there. I went to church when I was older but was a child and found children's television far more interesting. I stayed at home as soon as was old enough to be left behind.

I went back when i was older sometimes and felt when I did did I received relevant sermons, these days I feel like God doesn't want me there.

Therefore much of my theology has come from the Bible and later study bibles and commentaries which I never entirely trust knowing I am UR and they will be defending the false doctrine of ET.

I'm not entirely sure what parts of my doctrine come from where but I usually don't struggle to find Bible passages to support what I believe and understand why the church has believed the things they agree on for so long.

I certainly don't know Scripture better than anyone else, but by the Grace of God, there is not as much scales when it comes to reading Scripture. His Spirit should be our teacher and comforter, and will lead us in all things. Even if that includes another person.

Is that, if God is gracious there will be less scales when I read scripture or, God has been gracious to me, there are less scales for me (compared to others) when I read scripture? Which it is makes a big difference to whether I feel we can talk.

Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Amen

[MusicLover123]

Which it is makes a big difference to whether I feel we can talk.

Php 2:1  If, then, any exhortation is in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any bowels and mercies, 
Php 2:2  fulfil ye my joy, that ye may mind the same thing—having the same love—of one soul—minding the one thing, 
Php 2:3  nothing in rivalry or vain-glory, but in humility of mind one another counting more excellent than yourselves— 
Php 2:4  each not to your own look ye, but each also to the things of others. 

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 
Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35  So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. 

Mar 11:25  And whenever ye may stand praying, forgive, if ye have anything against any one, that your Father also who is in the heavens may forgive you your trespasses; 
Mar 11:26  and, if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.

Is that, if God is gracious there will be less scales when I read scripture or, God has been gracious to me, there are less scales for me (compared to others) when I read scripture?

I am just repeating what Paul states...

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 

Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure. 

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Total KJV occurrences: 156

I still don't know how I'm supposed to read the last line of yours otherwise although there may be a way. Many of us have that problem of not being able to see alternative readings of things.

Maybe some glasses will help :laugh:

I could think of a bunch of ways to read something. I may even be able to understand, with whatever I have been given, to know why they read a verse a certain way.

That does not make them right though.

And you immediately seem to be in danger of going to that bad place again

Hell? The garbage dump? Walmart?

You were trying not to to be that, to be just made what you said seem all the more condescending.

We all have our own fiery trials. And sins familiar to us, with trials sent to us building us up in certain ways. I have things I struggle with, and so do you.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 
1Jn 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 
1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 
1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. 

[MusicLover123]

Sorry.. but said son and wife were here with dinner! :gsmile:

Wait, are you a man? Or are you married to a women?  :Chinscratch:

Wouldn't it be great if you could just tell people, believe in God and have a sense of humor, and life will be awesome!

Well, God does have a sense of humor. We just have to look in the mirror!

(I've since learned this is an abyss/bottomless pit of possibility (rev9)

Romans 11
33O depth of riches, and wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

I don't think anyone i've mentioned it to, believes me

I believe you.

"so all would take this unavoidable journey/lesson, all together, at once. Lest one wander away now.. another later.. another later.. and still another.. later... taking virtually.. forever.. An unavoidable lesson, if there's to be thinking ability.

A humbling experience too...

2 Corinthians 3
15but till to-day, when Moses is read, a vail upon their heart doth lie,
16and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the vail is taken away.
17And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty;
18and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

[CST]

Which it is makes a big difference to whether I feel we can talk.

Php 2:1  If, then, any exhortation is in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
Php 2:2  fulfil ye my joy, that ye may mind the same thing—having the same love—of one soul—minding the one thing,
Php 2:3  nothing in rivalry or vain-glory, but in humility of mind one another counting more excellent than yourselves—
Php 2:4  each not to your own look ye, but each also to the things of others.

Mat 6:14  For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15  But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Mat 18:35  So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Mar 11:25  And whenever ye may stand praying, forgive, if ye have anything against any one, that your Father also who is in the heavens may forgive you your trespasses;
Mar 11:26  and, if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in the heavens forgive your trespasses.

Is that, if God is gracious there will be less scales when I read scripture or, God has been gracious to me, there are less scales for me (compared to others) when I read scripture?

I am just repeating what Paul states...

1Co 15:10  But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).
Total KJV occurrences: 156

I still don't know how I'm supposed to read the last line of yours otherwise although there may be a way. Many of us have that problem of not being able to see alternative readings of things.

Maybe some glasses will help :laugh:

I could think of a bunch of ways to read something. I may even be able to understand, with whatever I have been given, to know why they read a verse a certain way.

That does not make them right though.

And you immediately seem to be in danger of going to that bad place again

Hell? The garbage dump? Walmart?

You were trying not to to be that, to be just made what you said seem all the more condescending.

We all have our own fiery trials. And sins familiar to us, with trials sent to us building us up in certain ways. I have things I struggle with, and so do you.

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

1Jn 1:5  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1Jn 1:6  If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9  If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This isn't about me forgiving you this is about whether or not I think it'll be constructive to talk to you or if we'll talking at the wall. Which admittedly may be inevitable due to faults on both sides or, at this stage, even just mine.

Hmm, any chance Paul's supposed to be saying 'God YHWH' there? It could change the meaning of what he's saying somewhat.

Sorry, I wasn't entirely comfortable with requoting this but:

I do pray for you, that these things will be revealed to you. No, I am not trying to sound pious or self righteous or self boasting. I really do mean that.

When saying you are not trying to sound pious or self righteous or self boasting and then 'I really do mean that' just makes you sound more of the above. Really meaning it makes it worse. I don't don't how to read that with the implication that you pray that I come to your 'right' way of thinking and reading the Bible from my 'wrong' way of doing so. Really meaning it just means you genuinely hope I will come to your 'right' way of thinking.

The bad place is that place where you think your insight is necessarily superior to my insight.