If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?

[Batty Bible Page]

Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Certainly violating Divine laws should be avoided at all costs, and diminishing the power of the Holy Bible is violating Divine laws in my opinion, but it is not diminishing anything by seeking Truth by humbly and sincerely approaching the Divine Father and asking for permitted guidance in understanding how He has brought into being the Sacred Record - the Bible - which should not be considered a violation but rather asking, seeking and knocking upon the door of Divine understanding should He deem it allowable, and doing so is His child's right in my opinion - He could always withhold what He chooses from His child, but I do not believe that He would be upset should a child of His wish to know answers, I believe that He would be pleased His child wishes to know more of His ways. Answers may not come immediately but not asking generally will not receive answers at all. Personally I would be seriously careful not to reject the Holy Spirit as I believe the regret shall be not unlike that felt by those who rejected the Saviour when He walked the earth in a Body of flesh. But that is my opinion as I understand it today.

:girlheart: I certainly appreciate your opinion as you understand it today. Well said indeed.

[darryl]

the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

[marie glen]

the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Amen! ..As a matter of fact, I think Proverbs 25:2 has come up in my reading lately at least three times now.. I keep thinking that it is overlooked that logic is a part of "logos" ... "reasoning expressed by words." (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm) ..surely not only is logos root of the word logic, but logic itself is a part of what "logos" is.

....you discover..  truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

p.s. - and it's logic that God is utterly perfect. Therefor, the end result of all this / of what He is doing, can only be the very best one possible. Surely? And God's written Word says so. It's God's Word/Logos not mans' word.. or man's word about God's Word :laughing7:

[CST]

Hank Hanegraaff has said that Revelation has already transpired. That it is a foretelling of what was to happen and then did happen well before our time.

And the usual response to that is to point to all the evil in the world (of which there is plenty) and then say (rather sarcastically) 'Behold, here is the world God promised us from ages past. How wonderful is God(!)" Not very being the obvious answer were that true. It should be pretty obvious to anyone we are not in Heaven, so unless we're in Hell and have forgotten about it we're either in the millennial kingdom which seems unlikely because that's populated entirely by the righteous 144000 which I am sure we are not or the millennial kingdom has yet to arrive in which case Revelation has yet to be finally fulfilled. Although I do allow the possibility of many cycles of lesser fulfilment before the final fulfilment.

And diminish the Bible. The Bible contains numerous items that could only be considered warnings and many of these are found in the Revelation. And warnings, by their nature, describe things you would do well to be fearful of if you fail to head the warning and avoid them.

Certainly violating Divine laws should be avoided at all costs, and diminishing the power of the Holy Bible is violating Divine laws in my opinion, but it is not diminishing anything by seeking Truth by humbly and sincerely approaching the Divine Father and asking for permitted guidance in understanding how He has brought into being the Sacred Record - the Bible - which should not be considered a violation but rather asking, seeking and knocking upon the door of Divine understanding should He deem it allowable, and doing so is His child's right in my opinion - He could always withhold what He chooses from His child, but I do not believe that He would be upset should a child of His wish to know answers, I believe that He would be pleased His child wishes to know more of His ways. Answers may not come immediately but not asking generally will not receive answers at all. Personally I would be seriously careful not to reject the Holy Spirit as I believe the regret shall be not unlike that felt by those who rejected the Saviour when He walked the earth in a Body of flesh. But that is my opinion as I understand it today.

Sorry, the sentiment not to diminish the Bible (as it should have read and is now corrected) wasn't directed at you, but that was because I deleted the rest of the quote box for space. It was directed at Betty for talking about removing 'unnecessary' fear as if the warnings of the Revelation only mean anything to stupid superstitious people that came long before us and we don't need to worry about them.

The warnings of the Revelation are directed to everyone as are the other warnings in the Bible and fearing the potential consequences of failure to head those warnings wilfully or accidentally is not remotely unnecessary. Even if some of the warnings have been exaggerated in scope.

As for what you say I believe I agree with much of it. Although I don't believe there is a Divine law telling me not to diminish the Bible. It certainly isn't in the Bible which doesn't even know it's the Bible. I just think, while caution is required in making sure we understand it correctly, it needs to be respected as the only objective record we have.

[lastpost]

Absolutely friend, you have an interesting perspective – I say 'spiritual laws', but of course that can mean different things to different people.

My personal Guide is that which is revealed to me through Christ - of Himself. He is the Living Word and in Him I see adherence to all spiritual laws to perfection – that is, a perfect Guide for a human being on this little planet called earth. What better Way to present Truth to a human than come as a Human?

As I understand it, the human race can be very noble at times, and yet I believe that it is in its infancy as far as its growth into Divinity is concerned – or shall I say as far as the Sons of God are revealed? And so, to this Race in this age, the Saviour Christ in the Man Jesus, is the perfect Redeemer for man – indeed, Divine Perfection made Man. And so I can see in His Life and Teaching, His Example and Word – I can understand, by studying Him, not only what God is like but also what is best for humans. I believe that what Jesus Christ actually demonstrates, both on the surface and deeper than a human could comprehend, is how to follow spiritual laws in accordance with the Father God. His healing and His compassion, His self-abnegation, His commitment to humanity, His encouragement to keep seeking Divine righteousness and not the world, His birth amongst very humble surroundings...well, I'll let others decide what He shows them.

Thousands upon thousands have found the Bible a wonderful help and guide – it contains spiritual riches that have provided healing, comfort and guidance for so many of God's children, and anything which brings relief to the Father's Heart is to be revered. Therefore, I find it no problem to see that diminishing the power of the collected sacred records opposes the laws of Love that our Saviour laid down for all to follow – spiritual laws.

I believe, however, that the power of the Holy Bible cannot be diminished, even if something was not a perfect literal fact or if buried scripts were yet to be discovered, say of Paul's writing for instance - the power could not be diminished because, as I understand it, the Bible is full of Spirit Power, meaning, if I may interpret it thus, that God is Spirit and that His laws urge the creation of a spiritual guide in writing for His children, and each letter, whether Hebrew, Greek or whatever, has a power that can contact the soul, right through the mind of the body – and connect with the spirit. And further, because of the sacred reverence given to the Bible by so many, the Bible does indeed become more and more spiritually powerful as time continues due to this spiritual law created by God. In this, I am glad to think, the Bible will be better understood by humanity as the centuries roll on.

As for the Bible containing God's Spirit Power, I would also say that I believe that the spiritual counterpart of the material Bible actually does have consciousness because, as I mentioned, God is Spirit and He is conscious - therefore the material Bible is maintained by a spiritual Bible which is alive and conscious in the Spirit and, as strange and as far-fetched as it may sound, it does in fact know what it is. But that is my opinion.

Peace

[trettep]

the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Amen! ..As a matter of fact, I think Proverbs 25:2 has come up in my reading lately at least three times now.. I keep thinking that it is overlooked that logic is a part of "logos" ... "reasoning expressed by words." (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm) ..surely not only is logos root of the word logic, but logic itself is a part of what "logos" is.

....you discover..  truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

p.s. - and it's logic that God is utterly perfect. Therefor, the end result of all this / of what He is doing, can only be the very best one possible. Surely? And God's written Word says so. It's God's Word/Logos not mans' word.. or man's word about God's Word :laughing7:

We need to use the image God gave which was of Adam and Eve:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.

So from this we can understand the relationship of the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus.

God would be as Adam, the Rib (flesh) as the Spirit, and Eve as Jesus.

[CST]

Absolutely friend, you have an interesting perspective – I say 'spiritual laws', but of course that can mean different things to different people.

My personal Guide is that which is revealed to me through Christ - of Himself. He is the Living Word and in Him I see adherence to all spiritual laws to perfection – that is, a perfect Guide for a human being on this little planet called earth. What better Way to present Truth to a human than come as a Human?

As I understand it, the human race can be very noble at times, and yet I believe that it is in its infancy as far as its growth into Divinity is concerned – or shall I say as far as the Sons of God are revealed? And so, to this Race in this age, the Saviour Christ in the Man Jesus, is the perfect Redeemer for man – indeed, Divine Perfection made Man. And so I can see in His Life and Teaching, His Example and Word – I can understand, by studying Him, not only what God is like but also what is best for humans. I believe that what Jesus Christ actually demonstrates, both on the surface and deeper than a human could comprehend, is how to follow spiritual laws in accordance with the Father God. His healing and His compassion, His self-abnegation, His commitment to humanity, His encouragement to keep seeking Divine righteousness and not the world, His birth amongst very humble surroundings...well, I'll let others decide what He shows them.

Thousands upon thousands have found the Bible a wonderful help and guide – it contains spiritual riches that have provided healing, comfort and guidance for so many of God's children, and anything which brings relief to the Father's Heart is to be revered. Therefore, I find it no problem to see that diminishing the power of the collected sacred records opposes the laws of Love that our Saviour laid down for all to follow – spiritual laws.

I believe, however, that the power of the Holy Bible cannot be diminished, even if something was not a perfect literal fact or if buried scripts were yet to be discovered, say of Paul's writing for instance - the power could not be diminished because, as I understand it, the Bible is full of Spirit Power, meaning, if I may interpret it thus, that God is Spirit and that His laws urge the creation of a spiritual guide in writing for His children, and each letter, whether Hebrew, Greek or whatever, has a power that can contact the soul, right through the mind of the body – and connect with the spirit. And further, because of the sacred reverence given to the Bible by so many, the Bible does indeed become more and more spiritually powerful as time continues due to this spiritual law created by God. In this, I am glad to think, the Bible will be better understood by humanity as the centuries roll on.

As for the Bible containing God's Spirit Power, I would also say that I believe that the spiritual counterpart of the material Bible actually does have consciousness because, as I mentioned, God is Spirit and He is conscious - therefore the material Bible is maintained by a spiritual Bible which is alive and conscious in the Spirit and, as strange and as far-fetched as it may sound, it does in fact know what it is. But that is my opinion.

Peace

Hmm, I think the general consensus is that the Bible is complete, even if new texts were discovered. And what happens if someone digs up a hidden texts that makes UR an unworkable premise?

the doctrine of the Trinity is not expressly stated either....you discover its truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

Amen! ..As a matter of fact, I think Proverbs 25:2 has come up in my reading lately at least three times now.. I keep thinking that it is overlooked that logic is a part of "logos" ... "reasoning expressed by words." (https://biblehub.com/greek/3056.htm) ..surely not only is logos root of the word logic, but logic itself is a part of what "logos" is.

....you discover..  truth by deductive reasoning...by drawing together and comparing many verses of the Bible....same with Universal Restoration....seems like this is the way God has chosen to reveal Truth....we need to search it out...'seek and you shall find' as Jesus said.Proverbs 25:2 'It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter'.

    :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

p.s. - and it's logic that God is utterly perfect. Therefor, the end result of all this / of what He is doing, can only be the very best one possible. Surely? And God's written Word says so. It's God's Word/Logos not mans' word.. or man's word about God's Word :laughing7:

We need to use the image God gave which was of Adam and Eve:

In the beginning was the Rib, and the Rib was with Adam and the Rib was Adam.

So from this we can understand the relationship of the Holy Spirit, God and Jesus.

God would be as Adam, the Rib (flesh) as the Spirit, and Eve as Jesus.

You're comparing Jesus to Eve, the temptress, in this equation? Jesus, the last Adam, is Eve? Comparing God to Eve like that is more than a bit tenuous, I feel.

[JBrenner]

This may be the next 5500 posts to this discussion board.  This one's one of my absolute pet peeves, so I'll wait for a day when I'm less ornery to share my answers to this one, but:

"If UR were THE Truth of the Bible, then wouldn't it be plain(er) to everybody?"

There are few biblical themes that are plains before being read and taught by someone to us.

I think most people who have never read the Bible will only agree that there is a God who created everything and so we must obey Him.

Other matters outside these are later discovered through denominational teachings.

My wish is for more things to be written directly into the heart of humanity. My wish is that the Law of God in our hearts should be clearer.

[CST]

I think most people who have never read the Bible will only agree that there is a God who created everything and so we must obey Him.

Huh, and where do atheists fit in this equation? Do you mean 'ever read'?

[JBrenner]

I think most people who have never read the Bible will only agree that there is a God who created everything and so we must obey Him.

Huh, and where do atheists fit in this equation? Do you mean 'ever read'?

Huh, and where do atheists fit in this equation?

I think that after a person completes a reading of the Bible they will have the information that the Bible teaches that God exists and wants obedience. Even if that person does not come to believe this statement as the atheists.

Do you mean 'ever read'?

Yes! Sorry! I'm still learning English!

[CST]

Thanks, actually I'm not even sure that the Bible teaches that God wants obedience. That terminology suggests that God created humans to have a race of beings to impose His authority on which I don't think is the case.

He requires obedience in as much as the alternative is us eventually submitting to our tendency to sin. But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

[jabcat]

Obedience; dutiful or submissive compliance to the commands of one in authority.

"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" (Luke 6:46).

Jesus answered him, w"If anyone loves me, he will keep my word,  Jn 14:23

If you love me, keep my commandments  Jn 14:15

Jn 5:2  By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments.  For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.  (love God and your neighbor [Mark 12:30-31], seek justice, be faithful and live obediently before your God [Micah 6:8], care for widows and orphans and refuse to let the world corrupt you [James 1:27], believe on Jesus [Jn. 6:29])

[MusicLover123]

 :thumbsup: Jabcat

[jabcat]

:)

[JBrenner]

Thanks, actually I'm not even sure that the Bible teaches that God wants obedience. That terminology suggests that God created humans to have a race of beings to impose His authority on which I don't think is the case.

He requires obedience in as much as the alternative is us eventually submitting to our tendency to sin. But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Matthew 22:37-‬40 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.22.37-40.NIV

I think that this two commandments are for us as Jesus followers.

I think that a person reading the Bible at first time will agree that this is very clear and plain.

I agree with you that we don't have a tendency to sin and have to resist it.

I believe that we have to obey because this is the right thing to do, not waiting for retribution or to escape from the fire of hell. Instead of Jesus teach us this two rules because in this way we became closer to God's character and became better humans positively influencing the world around us how salt and light must be.

[CST]

For the love of...

God gave Adam and his woman one rule with one consequence: Not to eat from the tree of the knowledge or good and evil or they would die. There's no obvious instruction there to keeping the myriad of laws we now have so I'm presuming that prior to eating it wouldn't even occur to them to break the others. To be honest, those taking the Bible literally have to conclude it never even occurred to them to break that rule but rather the serpent had to put it in woman's head who had to put it in her husband's head. Who knows if it would ever have occurred to either of them if God had kept the serpent away.

Of course, if you don't take the Bible literally here there was no way God could have kept the serpent away because something in man, woman or both invited it into the garden.

[GodIsLove]

Thanks, actually I'm not even sure that the Bible teaches that God wants obedience. That terminology suggests that God created humans to have a race of beings to impose His authority on which I don't think is the case.

He requires obedience in as much as the alternative is us eventually submitting to our tendency to sin. But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

Jesus replied:

" 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'  This is the first and greatest commandment.

And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'  All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Matthew 22:37-‬40 NIV
https://bible.com/bible/111/mat.22.37-40.NIV

I think that this two commandments are for us as Jesus followers.

I think that a person reading the Bible at first time will agree that this is very clear and plain.

I agree with you that we don't have a tendency to sin and have to resist it.

I believe that we have to obey because this is the right thing to do, not waiting for retribution or to escape from the fire of hell. Instead of Jesus teach us this two rules because in this way we became closer to God's character and became better humans positively influencing the world around us how salt and light must be.

:iagree:

[MusicLover123]

Who knows if it would ever have occurred to either of them if God had kept the serpent away.

They wouldn't have known good and evil, and therefore wouldn't have that first step to being made in His image, and being as God.

Genesis 3
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

22And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

This is actually the first commandment:

Genesis 1
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

This is why they broke His commandments:

Romans 8
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

They were carnally minded! If they were otherwise, then why did they break His commandments and His Law?

The Serpent was there because God decided for it to be there. They ate because He wanted them to, and He put it right in the center of them. Is God supposed to be stupid or something? Did these things happen and then God said "Oh no! How could this happen! If only I was looking!"

No. He knows exactly what He is doing. If there was a wiser and better way of doing things, than I think that would be the way things would be.

[CST]

<Sigh> I don't think you're entirely getting my point here.

[MusicLover123]

Then, if you do not think people understand what you are saying, then please explain it. Even if you need to, just list a couple verses or passages, and maybe then we can know more where you are thinking.

1 Corinthians 14
19but in an assembly I wish to speak five words through my understanding, that others also I may instruct, rather than myriads of words in an unknown tongue.
20Brethren, become not children in the understanding, but in the evil be ye babes, and in the understanding become ye perfect

[jabcat]

Yeah, I didn't get it either.

[Dandelion]

God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

I was taught long, long ago that each of us would have sinned, if we had been the first people. We want our will to prevail, at the very least, some of the time. We must want His will.

Revelation 3:

15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!

D.

[marie glen]

But I think He'd rather we didn't have a tendency to sin and didn't need to obey His commands in order to resist it.

think that's very true.. How Paul wrote the law is a tutor until Christ.. and is for the lawless.. (both in Galatians, I think..)

Jesus said New commandment and John wrote it in his letters.. And of course Paul said love is the fulfilling of the law.. love never fails.. love works no ill..

A person born again hopefully doesn't need the reminder, today i will not fraud, I will not murder.. Of course that is all summed up in Love works no ill.. Not that any of us are yet perfected.. Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

Who knows if it would ever have occurred to either of them if God had kept the serpent away.

They wouldn't have known good and evil, and therefore wouldn't have that first step to being made in His image, and being as God.

Genesis 3
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

22And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever

This is actually the first commandment:

Genesis 1
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

This is why they broke His commandments:

Romans 8
7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

They were carnally minded! If they were otherwise, then why did they break His commandments and His Law?

The Serpent was there because God decided for it to be there. They ate because He wanted them to, and He put it right in the center of them. Is God supposed to be stupid or something? Did these things happen and then God said "Oh no! How could this happen! If only I was looking!"

No. He knows exactly what He is doing. If there was a wiser and better way of doing things, than I think that would be the way things would be.

I totally agree, He engineered things so the adversary was very able to pull his stunt.. I wonder is Adam and Eve were carnal - which I think of as having to do with the nature as in character, not as some have thought, the gnostics, I believe, and the Mormons(?) that the fall had to do with being spiritual and then they fell into the physical, which I don't think agrees very well with Genesis. But it's confusing as flesh, does sometimes refer to the actual flesh or body, but also (sarks? the Greek) refers to the nature or character of a person which does things apart from relying on God's Spirit (even if it seems 'good' or even serves good) but is self willed. From that part of  person not born again or of the Spirit.

About 20 years ago, about in the middle of my walk with the Lord (now that I think about it) our son asked me two questions, which I'm sure I've mentioned here before, but hopefully won't be boring. I was a pretty contented and a solid believer before this, but his questions challenged me, because I really was not very satisfied with my answers. So I prayed for better answers. (And when this boy was a baby one day I sat at my mom in law's oak dining room table and prayed over 10 questions about bible prophecy. Now that I'm thinking about it. A little reflective today..)

But when He was about 16, he asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?"

Of course, short answer is, we aren't an ant farm! I think of that as the whole 'problem'!

How did things get so bad after a while, with creation, that God intervened with a flood and started over? Then said He'd never do so again.. Which I take to mean He's letting things - for the most part - run their course. I mean why endow rational and reasoning ability and then not let those thinking creatures actually follow their own reasoning? I.e., and then not allow them to actually make any choices or decisions. Which obviously both Eve and Adam were able to make the decision to listen to the serpent who was, after all, contradicting their creator.

(Does Genesis say how long after creation, the serpent did his beguiling? Note: ever noticed the serpent guise of the adversary in Revelation? Where the dragon and serpent are interchangeable? chapter 12.)

Uh, oh.. gotta run..

[MusicLover123]

God wants all of each of us. He wants to transform us. He is not satisfied with just some part of us.

"All of us" means to surrender our will to His will. It means to obey, to be like Jesus, to put His will above what we want.

Like Dandelion wrote, we surrender to Him.. our will, etc.. all.

I think it is a bit more than just surrendering ourselves to Him, but ourselves dying, and Christ living in us...

Gal 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Php 1:21  For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

1Pe 4:1  Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2  That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Php 2:5  Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

Gal 5:24  And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25  If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26  Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph 4:22  ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit,
Eph 4:23  and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
Eph 4:24  and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth.
Eph 4:25  Wherefore, putting away the lying, speak truth each with his neighbour, because we are members one of another

Col 3:9  Lie not one to another, having put off the old man with his practices

Joh 3:30  He must increase, but I must decrease.

2Ti 1:7  for God did not give us a spirit of fear, but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind


1Co 15:10  and by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace that is towards me came not in vain, but more abundantly than they all did I labour, yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me 

[MusicLover123]

Speaking of Genesis, you know when Adam was going to eat the fruit with Eve? Isn't this a shadow of Christ laying down His life, lowering himself and a sacrifice for us?

But when He was about 16

That part is new  :laughing7: