Dying to self

[GodIsLove]

Here are some ideas that have come to me gradually over the last few weeks and are finally fully formed enough to put it into a coherent post:

The bible talks a lot about dying to self in order to follow Christ.

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Ephesians 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Luke 9:23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Romans  8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Ok so we know we need to die in order to be one with Christ...
But this is clearly not talking about physical death because this type of death can happen BEFORE physical death.

Then, we are reborn:

John 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So there are two deaths we will undergo, one is this dying to self/our ego and submitting fully to God, and one is physical death.

Which brings me to the lake of fire. This is the "second death" ...for all who do not have their name written in the book of life.

For all who haven't experienced this dying to self in the Earthly life, they will experience it in the afterlife.

Because we all need to die and be reborn to enter the Kingdom of God. Some enter the Kingdom now:

NIV: "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst"

YLT: He answered them, and said, 'The reign of God doth not come with observation; 21nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

And the rest will experience this dying and rebirth after their physical death.

Then God will be "all in all."

[rosered]

   Gods blessing ,

  Sister  in Christ , I used to think that way also   , until the Lord made me realize  ''quicken '' make alive ,  something  more powerful  about   Him   

HE IS vastly uncontainable  in the sense  of being the  Master of the dead and living  , all this is contained with Himself  , and He is the one destroying all enemies   within HIMSELF  , the WORD OF GOD is  and was and will be ,    the name the Lord Jesus Christ is a title   given for salvation  that no other name under  heaven can be   saved without    being aware of it  , one of so many    working titles given as a Lamb of GOD  ,  the Son of God , the good shepherd  and the Word of GOD  made flesh [manifested ]  , this fire of the consuming God is within Himself  ,     the  HEAVENS   and worlds are held within  HIM     , just impossible to fathom   it .

Every one and everything is connected to   HIS PRESENCE , substance  without even knowing it   , they are the dead  ,,,in word and deed ,  but will be made alive in Christ  , He holds the keys  [opening of understanding ]  of the graves and death   that hold everyone from HIS LIGHT&LIFE   and gives   as much as  He  desires .

Jesus used a lot of metaphors  to try and help explain   what is ,  because  there are no words to  experience   GOD , it just is .

Something that ''helped me ''    was seeing GOD whom POWER is SPIRIT OF LOVE by THE WORD 
  Imagine    a great power grid     full of electricity     and you contain a small amount within you , but if you go and  grab a  hold of this   amazing power  it will kill you   dead , those could not see God and live  because this POWER was  not able to be   held by any one thing  but an amount or measure  in everything ALIVE 

JESUS CHRIST  come in this power  by the WORD  to  prove it  , HE  represented this  power of love to   remove death permanently

  There is always a fire with electricity because it does  destroy  all the inanimate objects that   are not apart of HIS POWER  including mortal bodies or anything earthly  in that sense

  This may not make a bit of sense to anyone ...    I just know there are many scriptures to  prove that   the   LORD JESUS CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD   holds all things within HIMSELF   and there is nothing outside of Himself that is not contained   by HIM 
  the worlds  physical and spiritual were made by HIM  and this little light of ours is a part of Him  , the gathering makes the Light and power brighter and brighter  being  connected to the source of ALL POWER   GOD HIMSELF . 

1 John
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him....
s
Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

I cannot see anything now outside of GOD     that does not belong to Him  , we are His  all of us  , everything with the breath of God in them

[sheila]

 :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

   Gods blessing ,

  Sister  in Christ , I used to think that way also   , until the Lord made me realize  "quicken " make alive ,  something  more powerful  about   Him   

HE IS vastly uncontainable  in the sense  of being the  Master of the dead and living  , all this is contained with Himself  , and He is the one destroying all enemies   within HIMSELF  , the WORD OF GOD is  and was and will be ,    the name the Lord Jesus Christ is a title   given for salvation  that no other name under  heaven can be   saved without    being aware of it  , one of so many    working titles given as a Lamb of GOD  ,  the Son of God , the good shepherd  and the Word of GOD  made flesh [manifested ]  , this fire of the consuming God is within Himself  ,     the  HEAVENS   and worlds are held within  HIM     , just impossible to fathom   it .

Every one and everything is connected to   HIS PRESENCE , substance  without even knowing it   , they are the dead  ,,,in word and deed ,  but will be made alive in Christ  , He holds the keys  [opening of understanding ]  of the graves and death   that hold everyone from HIS LIGHT&LIFE   and gives   as much as  He  desires .

Jesus used a lot of metaphors  to try and help explain   what is ,  because  there are no words to  experience   GOD , it just is .

Something that "helped me "    was seeing GOD whom POWER is SPIRIT OF LOVE by THE WORD 
  Imagine    a great power grid     full of electricity     and you contain a small amount within you , but if you go and  grab a  hold of this   amazing power  it will kill you   dead , those could not see God and live  because this POWER was  not able to be   held by any one thing  but an amount or measure  in everything ALIVE 

JESUS CHRIST  come in this power  by the WORD  to  prove it  , HE  represented this  power of love to   remove death permanently

  There is always a fire with electricity because it does  destroy  all the inanimate objects that   are not apart of HIS POWER  including mortal bodies or anything earthly  in that sense

  This may not make a bit of sense to anyone ...    I just know there are many scriptures to  prove that   the   LORD JESUS CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD   holds all things within HIMSELF   and there is nothing outside of Himself that is not contained   by HIM 
  the worlds  physical and spiritual were made by HIM  and this little light of ours is a part of Him  , the gathering makes the Light and power brighter and brighter  being  connected to the source of ALL POWER   GOD HIMSELF . 

1 John
9There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him....
s
Isaiah 53:3
He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:11
He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:16
For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

I cannot see anything now outside of GOD     that does not belong to Him  , we are His  all of us  , everything with the breath of God in them

Thanks, Rose  :HeartThrob:
I do agree God is "vastly uncontainable" to use your words. It is amazing slowly being revealed more and more of Him and still I have just scratched the surface!

Sheila, I've missed you! Hope to hear you share more soon!

[eaglesway]

In one sense everything is finished. i am perfectly righteous because of Christ in me the hope of glory. the whole creation is restored because of the finished work of Christ on the cross and His resurrection.

Yet, if I am perfectly righteous why does God discipline me for the sake of righteousness? if the work is finished, why am I "laboring to enter His rest"?

If the work of Christ was is finished, why does the whole creation groan in birth pangs, eagerly awaiting the revelation of the children of God?

Christ has performed the finished work, we have been gathered into it, it is working its way through each and all of us like leaven in three bushels of flour, and it will work its way through the whole creation.

Hebrews says it is for discipline that we endure. Romans 8 says if we do not yet see what has been wrought by God in Christ fully manifest, then we must eagerly await it in hope and perseverance.

We must all persevere through the fire of God, which is His presence. It is His own being- which is indeed uncontainable- it is gathering all to Himself, into the "all in all". it is the being of God that sanctifies the offering, purges the wood,hay and stubble, and purifies the gold of alloys.

Yet, God has contained Himself, through Messiah, and in the outworking of the ages. He is the fulness of the deity in bodily form and all things are being gathered into one in Him, whether things in heaven or things on earth.

"For God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their sins against them, and He has entrusted us with the word of reconciliation"- but we do not yet see the whole world reconciled, and because of this it groans, and we groan with it, "laboring diligently to enter His rest" - to enter that finished work where I have died and Christ is living through me.

I believe there is an element of dying to self, reckoning oneself dead, as Paul put it. "For I am crucified to the world and the world is crucified unto me". "if you do by the Spirit put to death the deeds of the flesh you will live".

It can only be a blessing if empowered by the Spirit- otherwise it is just law and condemnation. But even in the Spirit, it ain't easy.

It is labor, but it is a strange kind of labor in which we are letting go of us and holding on to Him until he is formed in us. As he grows in us we become truly free because His love is flowing through us by the power of the Holy Spirit. As love is perfected in us, we no longer wrestle in Jacob, but we limp in Israel because He has emptied us. "I have died. Christ lives in me and the life I live in the flesh i live by the faith of the Son of God."

I think a great example is found in Jesus' words to Peter....

"When you were young you strengthened yourself and went where you would go, when you are older another will strengthen you and lead you where you do not want to go"

I believe these words to Peter describe a process that God works in everyone who calls on His name. it is what true sanctification(becoming set apart) is about- not the washing of the outer man, but the creation of the image of Christ in the inner man in a broken and a contrite spirit.

The Potter molds the clay upon the wheel and sometimes he squashes it down and starts over. Once he has the vessel he wants he will put it in the kiln. It is finished. It is a vessel fit for holy use. No ego, no agenda, just His for whatever He wants it for.

I agree with you Godislove, that for those who reject His "hands on them" in this life, there will be the lake of fire. But what I believe the lake of fire is, is a crucible. In a crucible the apothecary mixes ingredients and then places them over fire. Those ingredients will become something they were not before the crucible. In a crucible, the smelter place the gold and heats it, when it is hot enough impurites rise to the surface. Things that were not visible before it was fired. things that must be removed from the gold before it can be hammered into a lampstand.

we are in the crucible now, by our own willingness to endure, and His receiving us as Sons.

"For God scourges every son He receives, or else you are illegitimate. All discipline is for the moment unpleasant, but in the end it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness."

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. 30"I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

The word there is kriseos, it means separation, discernment, distinguishing. it is not "condemnation" or "damnation" as it is often taught. it is a judgment like in 1 cor 3:13-15

12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Again, you have distinguishing and separating out the works of men. The man is not condemned, but the Day will separate His works into two pile so to speak. Some will be kept unto reward and some burned up. the fire itself will do the work in the Day, for our God is a consuming fire

How will those works be burned up?

No one knows exactly :o) IMO they will evaporate in the fire of His presence like the bonds that burned off of Shadrach, Meshach and Abedneggo.

For those who are still adversaries, the light of His presence will be unbearable for them until they relent before His love. Jesus describes this experience as a difficult one(aionian kolassis), and there is(imo) great reward in having yielded to Him in this life, and for this reason we "press into knowing Him" and serve, working with Him in the harvest.

No one knows what this resurrection of judgement will be, or exactly what the lake of fire represents, and I get tired of people telling tall tales of souls howling in pain and roiling in waves of lava.

I think it will simply be standing before Him in the crucible, for some perhaps only a moment, for some perhaps an age, but I can see it only in principle and would not presume to pretend I know in detail.

The principle I see is represented in may verses- like the one in 1 Cor 3 above. Here are a couple more.

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do. Hebrews 4

The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. Rev 1

"But don't be afraid of those who threaten you. For the time is coming when everything that is covered will be revealed, and all that is secret will be made known to all." Matthew 10

Adam hid from God in the garden. We are all hiding from God in some measure. He has found us. He will find all. The smelter separates the alloy(lesser metals, iron, tin, lead) out of the gold, "like gold tried in the fire 7 times".

It's a process. we are in a process. The whole reformation of the creation out of futility is a process. We are the first-fruits of that process.

For you were begotten by the word of truth to be a kind of first fruits of His creation(James 1:17)

I think the resurrection of kriseos will be a process too, one more stage of "His kind intention which he purposed in Himself", the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".

[rosered]

I do agree God is "vastly uncontainable" to use your words. It is amazing slowly being revealed more and more of Him and still I have just scratched the surface!

That is everyone sis ,    we are all in this  together ,   

It is GOD  HIMSELF whom wills and works in us to His good pleasure

Shining as Stars
12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

14Do all things without grumbling or disputing;...

There is not a soul  on the face of the earth that  does not need Gods love mercy and grace .

  When born it is  a struggle to  come forth out of the womb ,  what a painful process   it is to be born  in mortality  , the very suffering continues   throughout there whole lives till literal death comes to   them

  This whole temporary   world is all about suffering   loss ..

What Peter says  helped me the most , suffering  mortality was always going to be a painful process    to endure   as fruitless suffering  ,  and we know this by our own experiences  not knowing God or His great Love for all mankind .

  It would be better IF GOD  would  allow your suffering to be for the good instead of  doing evil  1 PETER 3 Suffering for Righteousness
...16and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.

17For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.

18For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;...

The shame is here and now  as well as the  glory to the Lord  Jesus Christ   presenting us before HIS  Father [SPIRIT &LIFE]

We   are presented  in the Body of Christ and   raised up  unto God   alive  in Christ  , as Peter is  showing us  by the Spirit of Truth ...

Resting in   His body of believers as the works of God are being done in salvation  for us now as others are missing out   in his Joy and peace and love of the Father towards us ,but they sure will  learn as we all have  , we all know now that the only way to know God is though the Body of Christ   being in SPIRIT &TRUTH   and there is no other way  to LIVE  before God whom is  a consuming Fire  ,  that Love cannot be  broken   by anything  , mortal or immortal  , nothing can  keep us from  the love of GOD   , we are His own  new creation  in CHRIST  THAT ALL WILL BE MADE ALIVE THOUGH HIS WORD AND SPIRIT  OF TRUTH .

Romans 5:2
through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.

2 Corinthians 13:4
For to be sure, he was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him in our dealing with you.

Ephesians 3:12
In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

Colossians 1:22
But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation--

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Hebrews 9:26
Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Hebrews 10:10
And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

1 Peter 2:21
To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

1 Peter 3:19
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--

1 Peter 4:1
Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin.

1 Peter 4:6
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.!!!!!!

Spirit of truth in truth  are alive by His own WORD ,  The immortal body  has  ceased to, be  but the glorified body of Christ is  fulfilling all things as partakers of the divine nature   as the dead are raised up into Life  within HIMSELF !!.
EVERYTHING IS HELD   BY HIM   TO do as HE  ALONE   GLORIFIES  GOD ,  Being the HEAD OF ALL AUTHORITY..
  I see the head   as being the firstfruits of the SPIRIT & LIFE    as many , many harvests  have come   though the reaping of the earth 

  But this is only mine own   thoughts  by these scriptures

  pray   and ask for the Lord of harvest   37Then He said to His disciples, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. 38"Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest."

  Matthew 10:1
Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Luke 10:2
He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.

John 4:35
Don't you have a saying, 'It's still four months until harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest.


  For me this  has been being done  since the work of the Cross and  to the glory of God   though  out many generations and   ages and stages

When Jesus set  this thing in motion   since the   prophets  foretold  it  long ago  , because iniquity /lawlessness abounds   the   grace of God would abound the more    Romans  5 Death in Adam, Life in Christ
...19For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.


20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  mortality is sin  and the result of sin is death  , but the Life in Christ would bring salvation to all the dead  by the immortality   of the Lord Jesus Christ   ALIVE IN THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH   BEING  , the lord of the dead and living   CONTAINED IN HIMSELF  , To place all enemies   under His feet , teaching  and death is that last enemy , to be carnally minded is death ..      dwelling on the things of the earth   and tasting   of the tree of knowledge of good and evil as we all have  partook of  , even Jesus Christ  has tasted death for every man    and   made a way  for us   to taste   GOD  and know His goodness on all .
  Romans 14 Do Not Judge Your Brother
...8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.

9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt?

For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God....

  being  born of the  corrupt nature. all mankind   has bore  is the  tribulation , this short  life  of 80 years more or much less  , even God in His mercy shortened the days   of humanity   because of vexing HIS  Spirit    to me

I am only sharing what I have learned  in Gods mercy  on us all ,   and never want to stumble anyone's    path , but will say we will all  know  soon enough , being aware of mine own mortality  and  frailness and weakness  in this life  and Gods mercy to comfort  in times  of distress and loss , knowing His great love has been the only comfort  that has  sustained   many of us whom  cannot wait to  be complete in GOD .. HE KNOWS our hearts more  better than we know our own .
and HIS judgments  will be perfect   and well deserving on  us  all  , His own righteousness  will  complete  what He has already  set in motion  from the beginning  to the end .
GOD will be all in all   , this comforts  those whom are  waiting on the LORDS RETURN  without sin being the issue  to be dealt with  but has already begun working  though the Body of Christ till the end .

[marie glen]

GodIsLove

Ok so we know we need to die in order to be one with Christ...
But this is clearly not talking about physical death because this type of death can happen BEFORE physical death.

Which brings me to the lake of fire. This is the "second death"

   :faint: wow!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :cloud9:

Rose

the   LORD JESUS CHRIST BEING THE WORD OF GOD   holds all things within HIMSELF   and there is nothing outside of Himself that is not contained   by HIM

Imagine    a great power grid

  Amen! ..those are both SO true!!  "God is love" and I think of Him as life.. the life force and energy/electricity.. "the light which lights every person"
     ...and like the ocean.. He is the ocean and all humans and angels and all life.. even the vitality of plants (and atoms).. is all him.. the life force.. water, or the ocean, as a metaphor for that force, like with electricity... if there is no water.. it doesn't exist. Every drop of water, is, ultimately, Him. (imo)

"It's given unto men once to die" is written of the physical body and this life as we presently know it.. and Paul wrote also that we have been crucified with Jesus...  Like the Lord told Nicodemus - "born again"... Speaking of Jesus in Psalm 2, God said "this is the decree, you are my Son.. this day I reveal you.."

I'm a strong believer in the idea (hope?) that Yahweh's dealing with the folks of the 2nd resurrection ( thousand years after the first one of all believers) will be for most, pretty much exactly what we fortunate to, by the will of God, believe now in this lifetime.. ( :icon_jokercolor: say what? I don't think that came out very well..) -  that is to say, I keep coming back to the thought that on (throughout?) judgment 'day' His dealings with the not yet saved (they rose "still in their sins" not yet born again, in a sense, doa) - I can't help thinking, according to His nature, that his dealings with them will be a mirror image of his dealings with we whom he dealt/deals with now during this lifetime..

Some christians say 'all are without excuse, according to Romans, the things made.. all of nature, proves there is God' - so then I guess, the idea is God is justified in whatever he does to them because they were never born again during their lifespan. All through history people searched for truth and built many faiths about life and God or 'gods'.. worshiping forces of nature.. (All easy stuff for liars and oppressors to step into..)   I'm not disagreeing with what Romans says.. creation and life surely does reflect, magnify and prove that God is! (Although people have been educated exactly the opposite for some time now!)

"we shall be like Him"... we have to all die to self.. so He can sit upon the throne of every heart (and psyche)
:Peace2: God bless!

[marie glen]

It can only be a blessing if empowered by the Spirit- otherwise it is just law and condemnation. But even in the Spirit, it ain't easy.

It is labor, but it is a strange kind of labor in which we are letting go of us and holding on to Him until he is formed in us

...amen... less and less self interest and more and more of His outflowing love (imo) and purity of thoughts, motives, actions..

No one knows what this resurrection of judgement will be, or exactly what the lake of fire represents, and I get tired of people telling tall tales of souls howling in pain and roiling in waves of lava.

..when i go to an atheism vs belief forum and see folks trying to persuade by threatening 'hell', with or without fiery images... oh my goodness.. I surely do not get the reasoning! :doh: :eek:

Adam hid from God in the garden. We are all hiding from God in some measure. He has found us. He will find all. The smelter separates the alloy(lesser metals, iron, tin, lead) out of the gold, "like gold tried in the fire 7 times".

It's a process. we are in a process. The whole reformation of the creation out of futility is a process. We are the first-fruits of that process.

For you were begotten by the word of truth to be a kind of first fruits of His creation(James 1:17)

I think the resurrection of kriseos will be a process too, one more stage of "His kind intention which he purposed in Himself", the "administration suitable to the fulness of times".

Amen! great verses (and post) Eaglesway!!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

we are all in this  together ,   

It is GOD  HIMSELF whom wills and works in us to His good pleasure

oh man, don't I wish the whole body of believers knew this!!

[GodIsLove]

It took me a while to read your post, EW but when I did it was great--lots of good things in there that stuck with me that if I have time, I will pull out and share in another post.  I especially like your analogy of the crucible.

Rose, thanks again. I agree we are being born and just like a baby being born it is a process.

Marie, you pulled out some of the quotes that spoke to me too!

It's all awesome stuff!

[Ross]

It took me a while to read your post, EW but when I did it was great--lots of good things in there that stuck with me that if I have time, I will pull out and share in another post.  I especially like your analogy of the crucible.

Rose, thanks again. I agree we are being born and just like a baby being born it is a process.

Marie, you pulled out some of the quotes that spoke to me too!

It's all awesome stuff!

Indeed all good points.

The simplicity of the gospel seems to be  taking up the cross daily, or dying daily; dying to self.
This seems to be complete recognition of what Christ did for us- not our work but His provision.
A problem for the Jews who seek signs, and problem for the Greeks who seek wisdom.

What is amazing for me is the reality of an awesome key statement.
Look what kind of love the Father has GIVEN to us; that we may be called the sons of God.
The Jews killed Christ for making that statement. In their understanding of a father-son relationship was that they were equal. So Christ calling God His Father was the blasphemy of claiming to be equal with God- a literally punishable by death crime.


Literally born again seems to be the very born by spirit which is illustrated when Christ breathes on the disciples to receive that spirit.
This also seems to be the difference Paul highlights in 1 Cor 15 when explaining the differences of fleshes, bodies etc. He also included the concept of a seed not germinating until it dies, then it bears fruit. He says the difference between the spirit of life and the new spirit in Christ. Also refers to the old has passes away and the new is being renewed.

1 John refers to " we know we have passed from death to life because  we love the brethren."

All seems to be about the new creation aspect which exceed the current dilemmas.
Hence the need for faith that this is true and that what is coming is real.

[Dandelion]

Dying to self is key to the Christian life, I believe.

John 12:

23 Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24 Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25 Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

John 14:

15 "If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."

Lots of other great Bible verses have been posted with this theme. And, lots of good thoughts, as well.

And, yes, that is our goal here....to let go and allow God entry into our lives. Not what we can accomplish, but what God can accomplish. We need to accept the love, grace, and forgiveness of God and to allow the Holy Spirit to direct us.

Each and every moment of our lives......let go of our own will and allow God's to reign.

So beautiful!

D.                               :cloud9:

[Ross]

Amen!
Interesting how often Paul quotes what Jesus had been talking about. The seed analogy seems to explain the whole concept.
Also Christ refers to taking up the cross daily.
Without the future exceeding the present this would seem pointless.
Many are not yet aware of the glory to come. Each in his own turn explains the detail of the whole scheme.
I.M.O we have been released from this age's bondage to even be aware of the glorious future.
We have been led out of Egypt and are in the wilderness before going into the promised land with Jesus/Joshua leading the way.
Amazing how all this links together.

[Batty Bible Page]

Interesting that the object of "dying to self" arises in scripture in a faith dialog wherein everything the believer does from the first as an UN, that is unbeliever, is all for the sake of not only self in flesh, but self in the eternal afterward.
Therein it is not a selfless identity. It is a selfish one.

[lastpost]

As self withers and the greater Self becomes dominant - that is, as the Christ within is released - I think the time comes, either here or at some stage in the Afterlife, where compassion, born of love for the suffering brothers and sisters, is the driving force for all action.

[marie glen]

I think the ages following this one are only barely outlined (in the Book of Revelation) and I've come to believe the millennium of Jesus, beginning at His return will be a time for us "firstfruits" to learn and serve - as there will be survivors (mortal)

And I've come to believe that judgment 'day' will last roughly 500 years - this due to the spacing of the fall holy days of Leviticus 23 / Numbers 28,29.
and upon Judgment 'Day'/age I believe we as "firstfruits" will serve.. that it will begin as a rather traumatic day as all of those not yet saved awaken from their graves [beds with headstones].. With even weeping, some gnashing of teeth by some.. and some experiencing outer darkness for a time - like the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.. A day of review of all history.. all those unsaved throughout earth's history being taught the truth.. Which history and its outcome is proof positive of.. Deeply engraving His law and character upon every heart and mind (psyche)..

It's interesting to me that the millennium for our further training is said to be 1000 years, yet the 'day' - Universal Day Of Atonement (see Lev 23, called I read the other day Great Day of Forgiveness, which is what it was, annual, collective day of) within I believe all not saved before their death, with come to believe.. and follow - "Every heart will wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord" Philippians 2:11, taking into account the original Greek - that 'day' will last only half a millennium.. :2c:
The Lord bless.. :Peace2:

[eaglesway]

Here are some ideas that have come to me gradually over the last few weeks and are finally fully formed enough to put it into a coherent post:

The bible talks a lot about dying to self in order to follow Christ.

Galatians 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me."

Ephesians 4:22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.

Luke 9:23 And He was saying to them all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me. "For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake, he is the one who will save it.

Romans  8:12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh-- for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

Ok so we know we need to die in order to be one with Christ...
But this is clearly not talking about physical death because this type of death can happen BEFORE physical death.

Then, we are reborn:

John 3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."4 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

So there are two deaths we will undergo, one is this dying to self/our ego and submitting fully to God, and one is physical death.

Which brings me to the lake of fire. This is the "second death" ...for all who do not have their name written in the book of life.

For all who haven't experienced this dying to self in the Earthly life, they will experience it in the afterlife.

Because we all need to die and be reborn to enter the Kingdom of God. Some enter the Kingdom now:

NIV: "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst"

YLT: He answered them, and said, 'The reign of God doth not come with observation; 21nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'

And the rest will experience this dying and rebirth after their physical death.

Then God will be "all in all."

:iagree:

I think it is interesting that Jesus says in Revelation to one of the churches, "He that overcomes will not taste the second death" which means, to me, that it is possible to be a believer yet need that"overcoming" of dying to self. Perhaps the difference between the carnal believer Paul speaks of in 1 Corinthians 3

" For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?"

To be a carnal man, or double minded man, born of the Spirit yet, walking as a mere(not born of the Spirit) man, in the flesh- fleshly.

Brings a different outlook to some of those verses in Matthew, "Lord, Lord....didnt we this and so etc."

I think the lake of fire is the general assembly of the firstborn registered in heaven. The open and united consciousness of all those who left self behind to love, in that purest sense of that word love...."No greater love has a man than this".

"Come, let us reason together, though your sins be as scarlet i will make them white as snow"

"As I looked,

"thrones were set in place,
    and the Ancient of Days took his seat.
His clothing was as white as snow;
    the hair of his head was white like wool.
His throne was flaming with fire,
    and its wheels were all ablaze.
10
A river of fire was flowing,
    coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
    ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
    and the books were opened."

While the concept of fire is terrifying, Yet we know that "God is love", and "God is a consuming fire" and "God is light and in Him there is no darkness" .... Light is fire to darkness.

"Evry hidden thing will be brought to light"

"Evrything brought to the light becomes light"

"His eyes were as flames of fire"

"All things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do"

"Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?"

"Know you not that you will judge angels"

I think we run from that death to escape pain, He "endured the pain for the joy set before Him"- the salvation of all.

" I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed."

If we walk in that death, the second death will not touch us. If we run from that death fearing pain- the pain will be there to pass through like fire into purity after earthly, by the revelation of the light and the fire of His presence, sorta just like you said.

Lord have mercy, give us the grace to embrace that death, counting it all joy.