"God cannot stand in the presence of sin"

[GodIsLove]

"God cannot stand in the presence of sin" is something repeated a lot by people who believe in hell.  It is the rationale as to why the sinners/evil people are segregated in another place called "hell" for eternity.  I will cite some passages that I thought of recently, and some more that I found while searching, that show this isn't true.

In Genesis, after Adam and Eve sinned, God was there.  It was Adam and Eve who tried to hide from God, not the other way around:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

This passage (Habakkuk 1:13) seems to start out supporting the ideas that God cannot look on sin, but then it says, actually God DOES look upon evil:

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil,
And cannot look on wickedness.
Why do You look on those who deal treacherously,
And hold Your tongue when the wicked devours
A person more righteous than he?

Then in Revelation 20:11-15 ESV it shows that all people (sinners) will be in front of God to be judged.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revalation 14:10 shows the tormenting (testing) with fire and brimstone (purification) will be done in the presence of the Lamb:

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Jeremiah 23 shows that God is everywhere, and no one can hide from Him, therefore he is always in the presence of sin:

23 "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD,
"And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?" says the LORD;
"Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.

In Job 1 6-8, I'm personally still fuzzy about the nature of Satan/the accuser/the adversary but he/it is considered evil, and here God is having a conversation with him:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil?

I'm also fuzzy about the trinity (at this time I believe that God is one, Jesus is his son, the firstborn, first fruits, the Word...and the Holy Spirit is God's active force/God dwelling within us), but Jesus also said that he and God are one...then Jesus/God was surrounded by sin for the entire life of Jesus, and he didn't shy away from sinners: he ate with them, spoke to them, and preached to them. 

John 17 seems to point to the fact that, though Jesus and the Father are one, we will all be one when God is all-in-all:

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me.
26And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I tend to think the unity of Jesus and God are showing what our relationship will be with God eventually (always doing God's will, being united in love and thought, etc). 

[rosered]

Amen !!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

  Beautiful   Godislove     :thumbsup:

I think we all have questions yet to be answered  by the Holy Spirit   when He reveals  what has been hidden  for ages .

[marie glen]

Amen !!! :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

  Beautiful   Godislove     :thumbsup:

I think we all have questions yet to be answered  by the Holy Spirit   when He reveals  what has been hidden  for ages .

     :iagree: :iagree:


Amen GodIsLove!  :hithere: That is a great refutation of the idea that He being a Holy God cannot bear to look upon or be in the presence of sin.. He may indeed hate it, for He knows the results, the utter damage it does (to one, and the world) since the "wages (result) of sin is death".. And thus, alas, He simply cannot help i t- as the story goes - so very many will be lost.. You have (imo) proven that is simply not true! Amen.. the ET message not only insults His character (love) but also His attribute of being "Almighty".. Instead He is presented as being highly impotent, and very unable..

[darryl]

"God cannot stand in the presence of sin" is something repeated a lot by people who believe in hell.  It is the rationale as to why the sinners/evil people are segregated in another place called "hell" for eternity.  I will cite some passages that I thought of recently, and some more that I found while searching, that show this isn't true.

In Genesis, after Adam and Eve sinned, God was there.  It was Adam and Eve who tried to hide from God, not the other way around:

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

This passage (Habakkuk 1:13) seems to start out supporting the ideas that God cannot look on sin, but then it says, actually God DOES look upon evil:

You are of purer eyes than to behold evil,
And cannot look on wickedness.
Why do You look on those who deal treacherously,
And hold Your tongue when the wicked devours
A person more righteous than he?

Then in Revelation 20:11-15 ESV it shows that all people (sinners) will be in front of God to be judged.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revalation 14:10 shows the tormenting (testing) with fire and brimstone (purification) will be done in the presence of the Lamb:

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out undiluted into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Jeremiah 23 shows that God is everywhere, and no one can hide from Him, therefore he is always in the presence of sin:

23 "Am I a God near at hand," says the LORD,
"And not a God afar off?
24 Can anyone hide himself in secret places,
So I shall not see him?" says the LORD;
"Do I not fill heaven and earth?" says the LORD.

In Job 1 6-8, I'm personally still fuzzy about the nature of Satan/the accuser/the adversary but he/it is considered evil, and here God is having a conversation with him:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil?

I'm also fuzzy about the trinity (at this time I believe that God is one, Jesus is his son, the firstborn, first fruits, the Word...and the Holy Spirit is God's active force/God dwelling within us), but Jesus also said that he and God are one...then Jesus/God was surrounded by sin for the entire life of Jesus, and he didn't shy away from sinners: he ate with them, spoke to them, and preached to them. 

John 17 seems to point to the fact that, though Jesus and the Father are one, we will all be one when God is all-in-all:

20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.
22And the glory which you gave me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and you in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that you have sent me, and have loved them, as you have loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world has not known you: but I have known you, and these have known that you have sent me.
26And I have declared unto them your name, and will declare it: that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.

I tend to think the unity of Jesus and God are showing what our relationship will be with God eventually (always doing God's will, being united in love and thought, etc).

good point....God approached Adam n Eve n interacted with them both AFTER they sinned n were in their sin...never thought of that.

[eaglesway]

God withdrew His presence from David to reprove him for his sin, but He sent Nathan to prick his heart and redeem him from it.

IMO this is because God never ceases looking into our hearts and crafting the circumstances that will lead us back to Him.

Besides, even if God will not stand in the presence of sin, He is gathering to Himself a people who have been cleansed by the blood of Christ's cross.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1

So the idea that He will not stand in the presence of sin has no bearing on the salvation of all, because every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth- and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord -tho it may have some bearing on the condition of those who have not yet yielded to Him, according to Paul(1 Corinthians 15:23-28; Phil 2:9-11)

[rosered]

God withdrew His presence from David to reprove him for his sin, but He sent Nathan to prick his heart and redeem him from it.

IMO this is because God never ceases looking into our hearts and crafting the circumstances that will lead us back to Him.

Besides, even if God will not stand in the presence of sin, He is gathering to Himself a people who have been cleansed by the blood of Christ's cross.

For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven. Col 1

So the idea that He will not stand in the presence of sin has no bearing on the salvation of all, because every knee shall bow, whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth- and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord -tho it may have some bearing on the condition of those who have not yet yielded to Him, according to Paul(1 Corinthians 15:23-28; Phil 2:9-11)

Yes Amen , an excellent reminder   , God looks upon the heart     :thumbsup:

  Jesus come   in the Spirit of truth   speaking every Word the Father  told him to speak  , that judges our hearts motives as to what is right or wrong , good or evil , Truth or lies  etc  .

John 12 48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:


The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it

. 50And I know that His command leads to eternal life. So I speak exactly what the Father has told Me to say."...

Jesus  Christ is the Son of Man and the Son of God and mediator  between the heaven  and earth  that we all must enter though   Him ,   Like the  flaming Sword in the garden of Eden    it can be compared to  a right to the tree of Life  ,[Holy spirit  where the  blessings of God   12 manner of fruits  and leaves are for  healing are kept from  liars , robbers and thieves ] 

  As Jesus judged the 7 churches in His right hand ,in Revelation   giving instruction    by the way of Revelation to John   on the Lords Day  while in the Spirit   testifying  of  prophecy  to be revealed , that is   now   and to come  , on how they are judged  and what is at fault  still and the rewards   that are with Him  , His right hand is the power to save  or cut off . because of disobedience .
  Having some what against them still    to be  known and corrected by  repented of doing wrongly   by His Spirit and Word working in them  still .

Preparing a purified  and   holy people to be    ready to  receive   the  LIVING GOD   and go boldly before the throne of grace   without blemish  /cleansed   and ready   , spot  / sin, errors   or wrinkle  /shrinking back in fear  .

Good things  being said  everyone  !!      helpful in deed  ,  God bless  and keep us  in His love .

[Cat Song]

God cannot stand in the presence of sin?

Wouldn't that mean that Sin is greater than God's presence?

[GodIsLove]

Good point!

[Dandelion]

I, personally, never heard that expression, before.

I did hear the expression often, that God helps those who help themselves.

We are supposed to trust in God, not in our own efforts, so the above statement, in my mind, is blasphemy.

And, God not standing in the presence of sin, does not fit into what I have learned about God, from the Bible.

As someone said, He ate with and associated with sinners very frequently. He was also in the presence of Satan, in the desert, and spoke to demons, through those that were possessed, so, for myself, I would just dismiss both of these statements.

D.

[sheila]

 :2c: to me...sin can not stand in the presence of God,would be more likely....the very reason Jesus must/did take away all the sins of the world. :dsunny:

[Patinak]

Sheila,
Great response!  I hope you don't mind, but next time I hear someone say "God cannot stand in the presence of sin" (and yes, I have heard it many times), I am going to use your response. 
Thanks in advance,
Pat

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:

[WhiteWings]

Adam sinned, what did God do?
He gave them a skin which is the same word as the first layer of a Hebrew wedding garment.
Four layers of wedding garment.
Four covenants.

That must be just random luck! Or perhaps not  :Chinscratch:

:icon_jokercolor:

[eaglesway]

For Trinitarians especially it would be clear that God must stand in the presence of sin because if Jesus is God and He ate and drank with sinners, I mean- what do you do with that?

Also, at the great white throne, (whatever that will be like) according to Romans 2 God will judge the secrets of men's hearts by Jesus Christ- their hearts either excusing or accusing them in His presence. Whatever process takes place there(I believe that search is the lake of fire metaphor- "eyes like flames of fire"..."all things are open to the eyes of Him with whom we hav to do") takes place in His presence.  :Chinscratch:

[marie glen]

   :Chinscratch: I think you are exactly right! A very good UR point! :thumbsup:

[CST]

I thought I'd already said this but clearly I forgot in some regard.

The usual understanding of this matter is not that God cannot stand in the presence of sin because that would be stupid. It would suggest that God is in some way fatally threatened by sin. God's purposes are threatened by sin in principle (although not in practice) but God is obviously not.

It is rather that sin is threatened by God. It is sin that cannot stand in the presence of a fully disclosed God (Jesus only partially discloses God in this model). In the presence of God sin must either destroyed or else changed so much as to be identical with being destroyed.

God avoid standing fully revealed in our presence to protect us from that danger not to protect Himself who cannot be harmed.

[darryl]

In Job 1 6-8, I'm personally still fuzzy about the nature of Satan/the accuser/the adversary but he/it is considered evil, and here God is having a conversation with him:

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
7And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one that fears God, and turns away from evil?

yes, I find this astonishing and a rebuttal of those who tell us God cannot stand to be near sinners etc.....I mean, here He is interacting/ conversing with the arch- sinner, Satan of all beings !...amazing.

[marie glen]

I thought I'd already said this but clearly I forgot in some regard.

The usual understanding of this matter is not that God cannot stand in the presence of sin because that would be stupid. It would suggest that God is in some way fatally threatened by sin. God's purposes are threatened by sin in principle (although not in practice) but God is obviously not.

It is rather that sin is threatened by God. It is sin that cannot stand in the presence of a fully disclosed God (Jesus only partially discloses God in this model). In the presence of God sin must either destroyed or else changed so much as to be identical with being destroyed.

God avoid standing fully revealed in our presence to protect us from that danger not to protect Himself who cannot be harmed.

Amen! Seems so simple really.. Logic, that is! When we get down to it, it's shocking the Et good news still floats.. nothing in it makes any sense.. Not in the light of God's character.. not in light of His attributes.. and then finally, we realize it's been in our bible all along.. especially "the wages (brought/result) of sin, is...?" And Jesus paid what price? :friendstu:

[CST]

:) Thanks, Marie! I thought no one was listening.

[MusicLover123]

There is a mistranslated verse, where it says Christ was made sin for us(2 Cor 5:21.) It should be made a sin offering.

But just something funny, since if Christ was made sin, and God cannot stand the presence of sin, He cannot stand the presence of Jesus!

[guest6088]

In Job 1 6-8, I'm personally still fuzzy about the nature of Satan/the accuser/the adversary but he/it is considered evil, and here God is having a conversation with him:

I don't know if I can shed some light on this subject or not but years ago when I was a teenager I used to wonder who Satan was and what he was 'for' (why God created Him) etc and I just couldn't find an answer so one night I asked God.
I had some sort of vision or 'OBE'. (Out of body experience)...I honestly don't know what it was.  :Chinscratch:

I had gone to bed, was sitting upright reading a book, quite happy,  :banana: everything as usual and suddenly there was a face at my window and I knew who it was.  :eek:
The face was really contorted, staring at me, hating every fibre of my being.
I was totally frozen with fear and couldnt' look away from it's gaze.  It was horrible.  I knew it was 'the Devil' or the 'essence' of what the Devil is supposed to be (all evil).

A woman's voice entered my mind saying things like:
"(He is) every lie that's ever been told,
Every murder that has ever been committed committed"...

I also received an overwhelming message (though not in words or even telepathically) (it was like a big 'block' of information at once) which told me that humans who do 'bad things' believe they are serving themselves (by being selfish) but (spiritually) they are only feeding this...'monster/beast/Satan' (who hates us with a hatred that was ... actually hellbent on destroying us'.  It hated me...Absolutely hated me.  I've never felt so hated before or since.   :dontknow:

It's really hard for me to put into words what actually happened...  But the long and short of it was that when we do bad things we gain in no way...We just feed this evil entitiy and make it grow and I knew then and there that that was NOT a good thing.  I realized when I hurt someone or lie to someone I'm not serving myself but feeding 'evil' (as a whole) and making it grow.
...I hope you can understand what I am saying...  I still don't really understand it myself...  :Chinscratch:

I remember calling out to God to get rid of this...'Thing' and I snapped out of it.  :punish:

I 'came too' (still wide-awake) (but 'aware' (back to 'normal') and my hand was right at the light switch (reaching up to it) (I must have somehow been trying to put the light on whilst under this 'trance-like'...whatever it was.

It really happened and (for me) certainly answered the questions I had about the Devil...It makes sense to me, I don't know how it sounds to others...Especially since I'm so wary of other's stories of such things myself.  This is the only time I've ever had such an experience.

Although the vision was terrifying at the time, when I 'came too' I just thanked God for showing me the vision (I knew God would watch over me (somehow) and fell fast asleep.  It didn't worry me or anything.

In Job, God uses 'evil' for a higher good (Job gets all his family back etc and doubled) (the story is an analogy that we end up with more after we have suffered a little)...In fact suffering is necessary for growth.

Could I point you to one of my videos so I don't have to type anymore (as screens make me sick) where I really get into the 'problem of good' and the 'problem of evil'? 
Basically sun and rain (good and bad) are required to create a 'rainbow', (that's the best analogy I can give)...
God uses the 'evil' for a higher good but once it has served it's purpose it is no longer required...Just as at first a flame can seem a 'bad thing' when we touch it because it can burn us but eventually we 'use' the 'evil' for 'good', using the flame for heat, to scare away predators (lol), cook food, for light, etc etc.  But we only need to learn not to touch the flame once and the lesson has been learned forever... In other words 'suffering won't last forever' once we learn the lessons from it.  There is no need.

I'm sure you know all this GodIsLove, you're clearly a very spiritual person; i'm just putting my thoughts out there and perhaps you can glean something from them.
Here is a video I made covering a lot of this subject if you are interested:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvVwFdxWQqE&list=PLX9T-1jZxX7nvLF6Em590X5J9jJGgzkOy

[sheila]

inspirationmoment..exactly! the womans voice was Jerusalem above.or daughters of Zion.Now you can see why why Our High

Priest,Jesus..as the final'act'of atonement..confesses all the people's sins upon Azazael's goat's head and sends him  off

to an unihabited land..NEVER TO ENTER THE HOLY CITY.This how He removes sin..and makes an end of it. :2c:

[guest6088]

inspirationmoment..exactly! the womans voice was Jerusalem above.or daughters of Zion.Now you can see why why Our High

Priest,Jesus..as the final'act'of atonement..confesses all the people's sins upon Azazael's goat's head and sends him  off

to an unihabited land..NEVER TO ENTER THE HOLY CITY.This how He removes sin..and makes an end of it. :2c:

I honestly am unsure what you are talking about, i've never heard of such things.
The womans' voice was very nice I remember, very clear, young.  A beautiful voice I'd say. A voice with authority but pleasant with it.  A kind voice.  That was over 20 years ago but it's clear and crisp as if it just happened a second ago.

[sheila]

yes,He teaches us by good and evil contrast.usingboth positive andnegative. The negative being the wicked/evil one..in this first

'earth stage"Perfection will come in our second stage in heaven..just[ified] spirits of men made perfect. :2c:

[guest6088]

yes,He teaches us by good and evil contrast.usingboth positive andnegative. The negative being the wicked/evil one..in this first

'earth stage"Perfection will come in our second stage in heaven..just[ified] spirits of men made perfect. :2c:

I just want to see my grandad again.  He was just about everything to me