God's Will, Man's Will, free will/sov discussions

[GodIsLove]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.

[GodIsLove]

Very interesting.  :LH:

And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible..     [mod edit]

Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!   
Why...It almost sounds like this 'god' was created by 'men'!  ... The worst kind of men...     [mod edit]   Like if a group of people I don't know told me they just saw someone walking on water I'd have to see it for myself...especially if it was over 2000 yrs ago... Call me a 'doubting thomas' lol!  :dontknow:

[mod edit]

'Human reasoning' lol!  That's pretty much ALL we've got...
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you.    :declare:
...But I don't.   
I give the real creator a bit more credit than that.


I'd like to have a SANE discussion at some point based on love and proper morals?

[mod edit]

I'm just here looking for truth. 
...Ain't finding much.   :doh:

Let me tell you something interesting though if you have time...

[[mod edit]

What I'm getting at is that...  Nobody HAS to believe everything they read just because someone wrote it and someone else put it there and said 'this is what God said'.


Admit it... [mod edit] You can't lie to yourself...Are you REALLY happy that all that stuff is in the bible?

Well...Hate me if you like... But I'm honest.  And I DETEST that kind of thing. - IT'S DISGUSTING and there is NO defence for it - not from me anyway.

[mod edit]

Sometimes it's better to use the brain the REAL CREATOR gave us than blindly follow a book I reckon. - Real love doesn't hit people off rocks or stone anyone and that's that.  I don't care what a book says!

To find truth one must be honest and that's what I'm about....  I've had enough lies to last me a lifetime

I look forward to debates in future!

Hi Marc,

I'm glad to see that your looking for the Truth.  You will eventually come to know it. 

Are you into statistics?

The Jews (remember that didn't give Jesus any credit towards being the Messiah - on the contrary), they had a Temple ritual in which they would choose between two stones by grabbing one at random.  Therefore, it should be easy to see that the odds are very similar to flipping a two sided coin.  Now for 40 years straight that chose the same BLACK stone.  The odds of that are 2 raised to the 40th power or 1099511627776 to 1.

The destruction of that Temple began the day that Jesus was Crucified and ended when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.

You see there are patterns in the Bible that we see that can't be explained but by divine operations. 

There many other events recorded by Jewish sages that happened in regards to the Temple.  Now understand the Jews would in no manner devise these things to prop up Jesus since they are the ones that were responsible for His Crucifixion.   

Now these things were recorded and we have the evidence of those events.  So if you believe you have logic and reason then you need to investigate such amazing events and see what you conclude.

Hi thank you.
I have no way of knowing if that really happened or not as I wasn't there etc but I've had similar things happen to me in prayers so I'm certainly open to believing it and it is actually because of experiences (similar to this) why I'm 'searching' at the moment in the first place.

Someone...or 'something' has answered many of my prayers in my life. 
I don't even know why I came here? - I mean 'God' seems to answer me anyway...What do I care what a book says?

I'm quite ill at the moment.  I might not have a great deal of time.  I feel as though I'm looking for the one who answered my prayers so I can thank Him in some way...I don't know...

I don't even know anymore. 

I don't even really care anymore lol.

You can thank him!

I'm sorry for your health issues and I'll pray for you.

I think u are on the right track.

JESUS is the word of God.

Jesus said he'd send "the comforter" to us after he died.

This means we now have access to God's spirit directly and we can pray and have a connection with God individually.

I don't always get answers right away but like you I do get them from time to time and I feel God.

[trettep]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

Hi Marc,

You have to think Spiritually.  For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament.  Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one.  He is also taking life for life.  He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.

It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.

hope that helps...

[trettep]

Very interesting.  :LH:

And you use this seeming 'God's truth' from certain books which were evidently written by humans and humans also decided which books went into the bible..     [mod edit]

Nah...his thoughts are CERTAINLY not MY thoughts!...Far from it!   
Why...It almost sounds like this 'god' was created by 'men'!  ... The worst kind of men...     [mod edit]   Like if a group of people I don't know told me they just saw someone walking on water I'd have to see it for myself...especially if it was over 2000 yrs ago... Call me a 'doubting thomas' lol!  :dontknow:

[mod edit]

'Human reasoning' lol!  That's pretty much ALL we've got...
If you think those bible writers were 'inspired by God' (love) to say such things about the creator of all then thats up to you.    :declare:
...But I don't.   
I give the real creator a bit more credit than that.


I'd like to have a SANE discussion at some point based on love and proper morals?

[mod edit]

I'm just here looking for truth. 
...Ain't finding much.   :doh:

Let me tell you something interesting though if you have time...

[[mod edit]

What I'm getting at is that...  Nobody HAS to believe everything they read just because someone wrote it and someone else put it there and said 'this is what God said'.


Admit it... [mod edit] You can't lie to yourself...Are you REALLY happy that all that stuff is in the bible?

Well...Hate me if you like... But I'm honest.  And I DETEST that kind of thing. - IT'S DISGUSTING and there is NO defence for it - not from me anyway.

[mod edit]

Sometimes it's better to use the brain the REAL CREATOR gave us than blindly follow a book I reckon. - Real love doesn't hit people off rocks or stone anyone and that's that.  I don't care what a book says!

To find truth one must be honest and that's what I'm about....  I've had enough lies to last me a lifetime

I look forward to debates in future!

Hi Marc,

I'm glad to see that your looking for the Truth.  You will eventually come to know it. 

Are you into statistics?

The Jews (remember that didn't give Jesus any credit towards being the Messiah - on the contrary), they had a Temple ritual in which they would choose between two stones by grabbing one at random.  Therefore, it should be easy to see that the odds are very similar to flipping a two sided coin.  Now for 40 years straight that chose the same BLACK stone.  The odds of that are 2 raised to the 40th power or 1099511627776 to 1.

The destruction of that Temple began the day that Jesus was Crucified and ended when the Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD just as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.

You see there are patterns in the Bible that we see that can't be explained but by divine operations. 

There many other events recorded by Jewish sages that happened in regards to the Temple.  Now understand the Jews would in no manner devise these things to prop up Jesus since they are the ones that were responsible for His Crucifixion.   

Now these things were recorded and we have the evidence of those events.  So if you believe you have logic and reason then you need to investigate such amazing events and see what you conclude.

Hi thank you.
I have no way of knowing if that really happened or not as I wasn't there etc but I've had similar things happen to me in prayers so I'm certainly open to believing it and it is actually because of experiences (similar to this) why I'm 'searching' at the moment in the first place.

Someone...or 'something' has answered many of my prayers in my life. 
I don't even know why I came here? - I mean 'God' seems to answer me anyway...What do I care what a book says?

I'm quite ill at the moment.  I might not have a great deal of time.  I feel as though I'm looking for the one who answered my prayers so I can thank Him in some way...I don't know...

I don't even know anymore. 

I don't even really care anymore lol.

Actually it is isn't just one book.  The authors didn't conspire together. They wrote different books over thousands of years which were put together into a canon (collection of books).   There are books outside of the accepted canon that I still consider to be inspired. 

[guest6024]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.

Sure I'd like that.  Or skype or video chat on appear.in if you like.

[guest6024]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

Hi Marc,

You have to think Spiritually.  For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament.  Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one.  He is also taking life for life.  He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.

It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.

hope that helps...

I get that.
But...  bashing babies off rocks?

I'm struggling with that one.

[guest6024]

Actually it is isn't just one book.  The authors didn't conspire together. They wrote different books over thousands of years which were put together into a canon (collection of books).   There are books outside of the accepted canon that I still consider to be inspired.
[/quote]

I know that, sorry I was just being 'simplistic' there lol (overly).
I've been reading some of the other 'gospels'...
...I duno what I make of it all.  I know there is truth there. 
I probably wouldn't have had my 'miracles' (I don't like having to use that word sorry but it's the only word that fits...God forbid (and I'm not trying to sound 'Pauline') (I hate it when people do) that anyone would think I did anything 'worthy' of them).  But the fact is I wouldn't be here right now If I hadn't had (cough) 'miracles' happen to me in the first place.  But to have had those 'miracles' I think it's because I got to know 'God' through Jesus in the bible in the first place.  I don't know for sure yet... I just prayed with as much love and sincerity I had...
..It's very confusing to me.
I feel drawn to UR believers...But probably only because you have a 'better idea of God' than the 'others'.  But I still feel like...  There's something missing.  It's like...I come on tentmaker and it's all 'UR this and UR that'...But theres more to it than just God saving everyone...That's a given...But there is so much more...
I know that you know that too...

I don't know what I'm trying to say really.

I just want to love...I'm not bothered if 'someone paid my fine' for me (Jesus) (I don't like the idea of that)...If I do somthing wrong I dont want someone taking my punishment for me.  I don't want a 'pat on the back' from God for being 'nice' or whatever. (What I should be doing anyway)...  I just want to love freely and in peace.  I want to see death abolished and for the 'thing' that separates us all (ego) to be subdued.
I want to go to Jesus...to have faith and hope in him but then I read his dads been ordering babies to be bashed off of rocks...

...You see the dilemma?

Sorry for pouring out my heart and possibly sounding a bit soppy but if I can't do it here where can I do it?

Despite all of this...I still function as a person.  I'm still 'happy'.  I don't want anyone to think I'm some depressed, anxious misery guts...Quite the opposite in fact.  I'm on a 'slow train' where all this stuff is concerned...I'm in no rush to find answers and I'm not fearful.  I love a lot and that love gets me through...that's my 'rock'...I'll always have that.  I always have the choice to love.  Love is God isn't It?

All this stuff is just sort of 'icing' on the cake for me....  If it all goes pear shaped I can go back to my 'normal life'.  But I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there was truth in the bible and something there for me.
Maybe God hides it (answers) from me?  Maybe I'm not saved?  Maybe I'm the least of God's people?  Maybe I'm not even one of His!

I don't know.  I suppose it's the human condition to keep looking for 'something'.  All I know is that I pray to God everyday and have prayed to Him all my life.  I believe He is love and...He 'helps' me...

Does God need a 'middleman?'  I mean...this is God we're talking about...
Psalm 146 "Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance".

My faith is in God (God being 'love').  BUT...Without having read about Jesus in the bible I don't think I'd have a clue what real love was...Or maybe I would?....I don't know!

The other thing that brought me here is that my own grandad saw Jesus before he died...He wasn't religious or anything!  So why Jesus!?

Anyway, I have many questions but never think I dislike anyone on here or am after an argument because it's just not true.  People are people.
From now on I will watch where I post my questions and be more cautious as I don't want to be banned.  I don't want to cause offence and I don't want anyone questioning their faith because of anything I've said or done either.

[jabcat]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.

No one has ever said honest questions or struggles can't be discussed here.  What's been said is, that the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed can be trusted and is the default setting at TM.  NOT scripture bashing, saying they aren't true, they're not to be trusted, etc.  Honest questions, searching deeper things, can be done.    1)  bashing, trashing, "not true", "just man-made",  vs. 2) "i'm struggling to understand this", "I believe the scriptures but my mind just can't reconcile x,y,z"...
One is honest, human struggle, that could be of benefit to the one and others looking on - the other, a lie that is not helpful to anyone, especially perhaps those weak in the faith. 

On the other hand, if someone/anyone truly just doesn't believe the scriptures and want to have a platform to either refute them or even subtly (and even perhaps even unknowingly) spread doubt and unbelief, then a different venue to share/spread that particular viewpoint is probably best.

[guest6024]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

I love the Bible and think it's pretty unique but I struggle with the same and any theories and explanations fall short in my opinion but I still think God is in the pages. We can PM or email if u want to discuss more since it's not allowed to be discussed here.

No one has ever said honest questions or struggles can't be discussed here.  What's been said is, that the scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed can be trusted and is the default setting at TM.  NOT scripture bashing, saying they aren't true, they're not to be trusted, etc.  Honest questions, searching deeper things, can be done.    1)  bashing, trashing, "not true", "just man-made",  vs. 2) "i'm struggling to understand this", "I believe the scriptures but my mind just can't reconcile x,y,z"...
One is honest, human struggle, that could be of benefit to the one and others looking on - the other, a lie that is not helpful to anyone, especially perhaps those weak in the faith. 

On the other hand, if someone/anyone truly just doesn't believe the scriptures and want to have a platform to either refute them or even subtly (and even perhaps even unknowingly) spread doubt and unbelief, then a different venue to share/spread that particular viewpoint is probably best.

I'm sorry. 
It's me that has come here...Tentmaker didn't come to me so I should have respected the 'house rules'.
I didn't realize I did that.
It won't happen again and thanks for letting me remain...It says a lot that.  Thanks.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Thanks marc.  Good wishes.   :dsunny:

[trettep]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

Hi Marc,

You have to think Spiritually.  For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament.  Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one.  He is also taking life for life.  He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.

It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.

hope that helps...

I get that.
But...  bashing babies off rocks?

I'm struggling with that one.

You referring to this, correct?:

Psa 137:9  Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock.

The Rock is singular - not plural.  The Rock is Jesus Christ. 

[trettep]

I know that, sorry I was just being 'simplistic' there lol (overly).
I've been reading some of the other 'gospels'...
...I duno what I make of it all.  I know there is truth there. 
I probably wouldn't have had my 'miracles' (I don't like having to use that word sorry but it's the only word that fits...God forbid (and I'm not trying to sound 'Pauline') (I hate it when people do) that anyone would think I did anything 'worthy' of them).  But the fact is I wouldn't be here right now If I hadn't had (cough) 'miracles' happen to me in the first place.  But to have had those 'miracles' I think it's because I got to know 'God' through Jesus in the bible in the first place.  I don't know for sure yet... I just prayed with as much love and sincerity I had...
..It's very confusing to me.
I feel drawn to UR believers...But probably only because you have a 'better idea of God' than the 'others'.  But I still feel like...  There's something missing.  It's like...I come on tentmaker and it's all 'UR this and UR that'...But theres more to it than just God saving everyone...That's a given...But there is so much more...
I know that you know that too...

I don't know what I'm trying to say really.

I just want to love...I'm not bothered if 'someone paid my fine' for me (Jesus) (I don't like the idea of that)...If I do somthing wrong I dont want someone taking my punishment for me.  I don't want a 'pat on the back' from God for being 'nice' or whatever. (What I should be doing anyway)...  I just want to love freely and in peace.  I want to see death abolished and for the 'thing' that separates us all (ego) to be subdued.
I want to go to Jesus...to have faith and hope in him but then I read his dads been ordering babies to be bashed off of rocks...

...You see the dilemma?

Sorry for pouring out my heart and possibly sounding a bit soppy but if I can't do it here where can I do it?

Despite all of this...I still function as a person.  I'm still 'happy'.  I don't want anyone to think I'm some depressed, anxious misery guts...Quite the opposite in fact.  I'm on a 'slow train' where all this stuff is concerned...I'm in no rush to find answers and I'm not fearful.  I love a lot and that love gets me through...that's my 'rock'...I'll always have that.  I always have the choice to love.  Love is God isn't It?

All this stuff is just sort of 'icing' on the cake for me....  If it all goes pear shaped I can go back to my 'normal life'.  But I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there was truth in the bible and something there for me.
Maybe God hides it (answers) from me?  Maybe I'm not saved?  Maybe I'm the least of God's people?  Maybe I'm not even one of His!

I don't know.  I suppose it's the human condition to keep looking for 'something'.  All I know is that I pray to God everyday and have prayed to Him all my life.  I believe He is love and...He 'helps' me...

Does God need a 'middleman?'  I mean...this is God we're talking about...
Psalm 146 "Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance".

My faith is in God (God being 'love').  BUT...Without having read about Jesus in the bible I don't think I'd have a clue what real love was...Or maybe I would?....I don't know!

The other thing that brought me here is that my own grandad saw Jesus before he died...He wasn't religious or anything!  So why Jesus!?

Anyway, I have many questions but never think I dislike anyone on here or am after an argument because it's just not true.  People are people.
From now on I will watch where I post my questions and be more cautious as I don't want to be banned.  I don't want to cause offence and I don't want anyone questioning their faith because of anything I've said or done either.

Hi Marc,

God is creating His OWN kind. Man was created for that purpose and man sinned.  This was all planned by God even for man to sin.  Because God knows Good and Evil and therefore His Own Kind must know it also.  So man sinned by lack of Trust (Faith) in God.  Therefore, the entry back to Grace (Approval) is through Trust.  Christ came as a man to show us that TRUST can bring us back to God. He had to be born of a virgin because Adam's seed is condemned with sin.

So we need Christ.  Christ is Good.  God creates the Evil and the Righteousness.  He holds us accountable but holds Himself as responsible.  And we should be accountable since our conscience bears witness that we indeed have transgressed His laws and sinned.

God through His own purpose and timeline will eventually save everyone.

[guest6024]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

Hi Marc,

You have to think Spiritually.  For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament.  Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one.  He is also taking life for life.  He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.

It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.

hope that helps...

I get that.
But...  bashing babies off rocks?

I'm struggling with that one.

You referring to this, correct?:

Psa 137:9  Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock.

The Rock is singular - not plural.  The Rock is Jesus Christ.

How can that be?  I thought Peter was the rock anyway?

[guest6024]

[/quote]

Hi Marc,

God is creating His OWN kind. Man was created for that purpose and man sinned.  This was all planned by God even for man to sin.  Because God knows Good and Evil and therefore His Own Kind must know it also.  So man sinned by lack of Trust (Faith) in God.  Therefore, the entry back to Grace (Approval) is through Trust.  Christ came as a man to show us that TRUST can bring us back to God. He had to be born of a virgin because Adam's seed is condemned with sin.

So we need Christ.  Christ is Good.  God creates the Evil and the Righteousness.  He holds us accountable but holds Himself as responsible.  And we should be accountable since our conscience bears witness that we indeed have transgressed His laws and sinned.

God through His own purpose and timeline will eventually save everyone.
[/quote]

Interesting post.  I understood it but...

This is where I am...in all honesty...
I realise I'm not perfect.  I 'can't' be perfect.  ...  I admit I would need a 'savior'.  This is the 'draw' of 'christianity' (compared to other religions isn't it?).  (We realize we fail to be perfect).
And then...I can't go no further than that.
Maybe one day I will.  I don't know.
I believe that 'whatever' ... God is in control and doing what's best.
I might not (or never be) ready for it.  Maybe God has to keep me the way?

I don't even know what I'd do if I was 'saved' I'm not sure what that means.  Help people?  Ha!  That's easier said than done... Convert people?  Ha!

Another thing that puzzles me...Jesus wasn't the first human to be raised from death according to the bible so... .... I don't 'get it' that's all.

I really appreciate your responses.  I will seek answers to my questions, thank you for being helpful.

[trettep]

Ok.

Yeah I can't concile the OT with the NT 'god' and have never heard any decent reasoning that the two can be the same one.  One says 'stone them' the other says 'forgive them'. - Complete opposites!

I'll look for answers elsewhere.

Thanks.

Hi Marc,

You have to think Spiritually.  For example, God is casting stones even in the New Testament.  Those stones are His Apostles. He is also taking eye for eye (eyes are a 'type' of the spirit') so this means that He is taking ones spirit and giving them a new one.  He is also taking life for life.  He is taking our corrupted lives and giving us the Life of His Son.

It is all Spiritual under the New Covenant but those types had to be established under the Old Covenant.

hope that helps...

I get that.
But...  bashing babies off rocks?

I'm struggling with that one.

You referring to this, correct?:

Psa 137:9  Blessed shall he be who shall seize and dash thine infants against the rock.

The Rock is singular - not plural.  The Rock is Jesus Christ.

How can that be?  I thought Peter was the rock anyway?

Peter is a stone and those that are true witnesses of Christ are stones.  But Christ is the actually famous ROCK. 

[trettep]

Hi Marc,

God is creating His OWN kind. Man was created for that purpose and man sinned.  This was all planned by God even for man to sin.  Because God knows Good and Evil and therefore His Own Kind must know it also.  So man sinned by lack of Trust (Faith) in God.  Therefore, the entry back to Grace (Approval) is through Trust.  Christ came as a man to show us that TRUST can bring us back to God. He had to be born of a virgin because Adam's seed is condemned with sin.

So we need Christ.  Christ is Good.  God creates the Evil and the Righteousness.  He holds us accountable but holds Himself as responsible.  And we should be accountable since our conscience bears witness that we indeed have transgressed His laws and sinned.

God through His own purpose and timeline will eventually save everyone.

Interesting post.  I understood it but...

This is where I am...in all honesty...
I realise I'm not perfect.  I 'can't' be perfect.  ...  I admit I would need a 'savior'.  This is the 'draw' of 'christianity' (compared to other religions isn't it?).  (We realize we fail to be perfect).
And then...I can't go no further than that.
Maybe one day I will.  I don't know.
I believe that 'whatever' ... God is in control and doing what's best.
I might not (or never be) ready for it.  Maybe God has to keep me the way?

I don't even know what I'd do if I was 'saved' I'm not sure what that means.  Help people?  Ha!  That's easier said than done... Convert people?  Ha!

Another thing that puzzles me...Jesus wasn't the first human to be raised from death according to the bible so... .... I don't 'get it' that's all.

I really appreciate your responses.  I will seek answers to my questions, thank you for being helpful.

Salvation is really quite simple to understand.   It is being unselfish.  As long as you are always walking in a spirit of unselfishness and Love for everyone (knowing all shall be saved).  Then your walking with the earnest of the Spirit by which you will be saved.  We are told 'what reward have we if we only love those who love us'.  Therefore, the reward is ESPECIALLY worthy if we are loving those hate us.

[guest6024]

Salvation is really quite simple to understand.   It is being unselfish.  As long as you are always walking in a spirit of unselfishness and Love for everyone (knowing all shall be saved).  Then your walking with the earnest of the Spirit by which you will be saved.  We are told 'what reward have we if we only love those who love us'.  Therefore, the reward is ESPECIALLY worthy if we are loving those hate us.
[/quote]

I hear you and thanks again.
...But everywhere I go someone is giving me a different version of what salvation is, though you in my view have a better knowing...

I've had few...odd moments these last few weeks, mostly when I'm out walking alone in the evenings...Just things 'clicking into place'...Things i'd forgotton.
I'm not sure where I'll end up with all of this, but thank you for helping me.

[jabcat]

marc, without offering any personal spin on it, or trying to come up with my own definition/opinion, I will offer this to you, as the scriptures speak for themselves.   As you dwell on it (and Him) may it settle into your spirit and become yours;

Acts 16:30 Then he brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

John 1:12  But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God

[jabcat]

JESUS is the word of God.

Jesus said he'd send "the comforter" to us after he died.

This means we now have access to God's spirit directly and we can pray and have a connection with God individually.

Amen.  Direct access to the throne, through our Intercessor.  Also the Spirit prays for us when we don't know how.

I also believe Jesus is the Word.  The Word made/become flesh.  I also believe there is the written Word, the spoken Word, and the revealed Word.  All working together for our benefit and His glory.  God's thoughts are also described as the Word/logos.  There is a lot there.    :thumbsup:

[Ross]

I've had few...odd moments these last few weeks, mostly when I'm out walking alone in the evenings...Just things 'clicking into place'...Things i'd forgotton.
I'm not sure where I'll end up with all of this, but thank you for helping me.

Learning is not a five minute process- learning is an on-going process with the wisdom coming through experiences.
Seems you are on the bumpy road where the flesh/mind/self is asking questions which only God answers in His manner/style not ours.

You are a child of God thanks to Christ's work.

1 John 3;1,2 " Look what kind of love the Father HAS GIVEN TO US, that We should be called the sons of God,
                      and so we are.
                    The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
                    Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God,
                     and it has not yet been revealed what we will be.
                     BUT WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE WILL BE LIKE HIM,
                    BECAUSE WE WILL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS."

1 John 3;5 " And you know that HE APPEARED TO TAKE AWAY OUR SINS,
                  and there is no sin in Him."

Eph 2;4-10 " But GOD,
                  being rich in mercy because of His great love with which He loved us,
                  even though we WERE dead in our trespasses,
                   MADE US ALIVE TOGETHER WITH CHRIST-
                   you have been saved  by grace-
                  and raised up WITH HIM in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
                  TO DEMONSTATE IN THE AGES TO COME THE INCOMPARABLE RICHES OF HIS GRACE in kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
                  For you have been saved by grace through faith,
                  AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELVES IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD;
                  IT IS NOT OF WORKS SO THAT NO ONE CAN BOAST.
                  For we are HIS WORK,
                  CREATED IN CHRIST FOR GOOD WORKS,
                   WHICH GOD PREPARED IN ADVANCE THAT WE SHOULD DO THEM."

Romans 9;11,12 " For even before they were born or had done anything good or bad
                          so that God's purpose might stand according to election,
                           NOT because of works, but because of HIS CALL."

Romans 9;19-21 " So you will say to me,
                                                         ' Why then does He still find fault? For who can resist His will? '
                           But who are you, a mere mortal, to criticize God?
                          Certainly the thing that is moulded cannot say to the one who moulded it,
                                                          ' why have you made me like this? '
                         Has the potter no right to make of the same lump of clay some pottery for a special occasion
                         and some other for a common use? "

Romans 9;23 " And what if Her did so in order to make known the riches of His glory to the objects of mercy,
                       which He prepared beforehand for glory."

Romans 10;3,4 " For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God,
                          and seeking to establish their own,
                          they did not submit to God's righteousness.
                          For Christ is the end of the law so now there is righteousness for everyone who believes."

Romans 11;29 " For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."

vs 32 " For God has consigned all to disobedience so that HE MAY SHOW MERCY TO ALL."

vs 36 " For from Him, and through Him, and to Him are ALL things.
           To Him be the glory for ALL TIME."

NOTHING can keep us from the love of God, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

       

[jabcat]

As is often the case here at the tent, when a discussion gets going it often veers left and right lol.

Looks like this one is no exception, although salvation/how it occurs/is obtained is definitely tied into the free will/all sov topic.

I also believe salvation is God's doing, from giving us His Son, to convicting us of our need for a Savior, to giving us the faith to believe on Him unto salvation.  And it's a gift, not of works.  I personally believe most are not called and given faith to believe in this lifetime, but that definitely all will bow and confess Jesus is Lord when it's their time - most in the next age.  When all is removed between us and God, and all will succumb to His burning love. 

That said, a lot of the scriptures Ross posted above brought something else to mind for me.  Backing up a little, I believe most if not all of the scriptures in the above post, in their context, is to those who have already been called and given the faith to believe - i.e., believers, children of God (John 1:12).  One of the scriptures makes the distinction between "us" [believers, the ecclesia] (Paul speaking) and "the world" (those not yet called and given faith to believe).      Related to a few posts in this thread is the issue of   KNOWING vs. doubt.     In Romans 8 we're told we can know if we're children of God yet or not, because if so, "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God". 

If this continues longer from here we may split it out to its own topic, so don't worry about hijacking the free will/sov thread.  Most things can be fixed.   :bigGrin:

[Ross]

I also believe salvation is God's doing, from giving us His Son, to convicting us of our need for a Savior, to giving us the faith to believe on Him unto salvation.  And it's a gift, not of works.  I personally believe most are not called and given faith to believe in this lifetime, but that definitely all will bow and confess Jesus is Lord when it's their time - most in the next age.  When all is removed between us and God, and all will succumb to His burning love. 

Pretty much what I was trying to say. :dsunny:

One of the scriptures makes the distinction between "us" [believers, the ecclesia] (Paul speaking) and "the world" (those not yet called and given faith to believe).      Related to a few posts in this thread is the issue of   KNOWING vs. doubt.     In Romans 8 we're told we can know if we're children of God yet or not, because if so, "the Spirit bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God". 

Amen! Would seem to be why Paul makes that observation to the Corinthians;

2 Cor 13;5,6 " Examine yourselves to see IF you are of the faith.
                      Test yourselves.
                     Or do you not realise about yourselves that Christ is in you?
                     and I hope you will find out that we do not fail the test."

[guest6024]

Hi thank you for the replys.

One of the things that always concerns me about 'religions' is the fact that we are told 'NOT to love the world or ANYTHING in it'...  We are also warned about 'leaving the faith' etc etc.  It's like...once you're the faith in you're stuck...'Cultish'.  It can be very dangerous...  You have now trained your mind to see the world as evil and if you ever lose your faith you are now in a bad place indeed with no 'savior' from this evil place.

The 'world' (far as I know) is the only thing we 'really' have...  I.E. 'this life' and I for one treasure it.
I don't look around and see 'sinful evil people'.  I look around and see mostly people who are lost...who can't tell their 'bum from their elbow'...People who want love but don't know how to get it.  I don't hate anyone...I feel sorry for some people and others are just 'spoiled' and never seem to learn anything.  ... All to varying degrees.
I hate the current worlds 'system' though...It's pure evil...But hey...From a biblical perspective who put that system there in the first place?
AND according to many of you...Humans have no free will anyway so if we can't choose anything (not even our life) why the blame and why a savior?

I see life as a challenge...An adventure.
Like...Heaven to me sounds impossible because we need 'constantly' reminded of darkness to know light.  We need bad to know good etc etc.  It's no use showing us 'down' once and then we always appreciate 'up'...No...We need constantly reminded.  Also sometimes we need the sun and sometimes the rain...Sometimes 'evil' or 'good' is determined by what we require at that time or how we see things at that time.

If I read a book and there were no 'whodunnits' in it or 'testing of the characters' through 'trials' but everything was just easy and plain-sailing for them I'd be bored to tears...What was the point?  What was learned?  Ever see Superman 2 when he loses his superpowers and Clark Kent can't handle a little cold and then he get's bullied and feels sorry for himself? - Later he gets the 'superpowers' back and he's 'superman' again!  Well...  We could all be superheros if our characters were never tested...But the challenge is to be superman (like Christopher Reeves (who played superman)) in real life...When he was made disabled after an accident...He overcame that in many ways...THAT was superman...No superpowers involved...Just him.

So to me life is a great learning experience and adventure...a chance to develop rather than remain in a 'spoiled child' state.
Life to me is also taking responsibility for one's own actions...NOT having someone PAY for the 'wrongs' I did (either deliberate or through ignorance).
Why should Jesus get his face kicked in on account of me?  Is that 'justice'?

I guess I see life differently from you folks and I don't think that can be changed...

All this said...As I get older 'earthly' things start to lose their appeal...The health get's worse...One loses interest/excitement in 'certain things'.  (Though new hobbies and interests do emerge)...  But all this is a learning experience too, though I do think human life (the 'cut-off' age if you like) might be a good idea...Because people do get more bored as time goes on and then are like..."Ok what's next".
So I do look towards 'what's next' and seek more 'spiritual quests' than physical now (as the body weakens).  This is just a natural process for many people.

Lastly...The reason I came here is because of certain 'answered prayers' I had...which honestly defied conventional logic.
The other reason is that before my grandad died he said he saw 'Jesus'.  My grandad wasn't religious and for him to say that...It really struck a chord with me...ESPECIALLY since we had a telepathic communication a day or so before then (which blew me away!).
NDE's seem to explain a lot more about these events from a scientific standpoint.  MILLIONS of reports from around the world, paintings throughout history and ancient stories which match to this day.  Verifiable data.  In other words 'proof'.  The NDE'ers say that life isn't about 'escaping life'!  It's about embracing the life which WE chose (before we came here) and making the most of life...Being a LIGHT of love for others.  Bringing the love 'with us' (to this realm).  I tend to agree with that more...No 'willingly'...(Do I have a free will?) But because that's where the evidence and common sense is.  They talk of how 'religion' didn't matter 'on the other side' (even people who were rigid fundamentalists/hell believers etc).  They talk 'sense' rather than in riddles which can be interpreted a thousand different ways.  Look at David Icke or those people that can make anyone's name say '666' with a bit of 'tomfoolery'...I'm not into all that.  A lot of christians write pages of 'stuff' trying to convince themselves of dates and times...But it's just 'stuff'.

I love all this stuff!  The mystery!  I'm just here trying to find a few answers...Sometimes someone says something that really strikes a 'chord' with me and sometimes not, but I appreciate you all and I wouldn't be here if I didn't think there were lessons to be learned.
Or...If you don't believe in free will the God has brought me here.

[jugghead]

For me, a free will is something I do not want, because for me, to have a free will means that I have the capability to wander away

I would rather not wander away from His "WAY"
I would rather not wander away from His "TRUTH"
I would rather not wander away from His "LIFE"

I would rather not wander away from His "RESURRECTION LIFE"

For me, to be free "IS" to be freed from "free will", to be freed from the ability to wander away, but if I do, I need not be afraid, "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil", this world can be a valley of death, and its people a shadow of death, a valley filled with evil (the shadow of death), I know He will guide me back into His will "for thy rod and thy staff they comfort me"

I would rather have Him guide me, than to do it on my own and I would rather have Him guide me than to be guided by men who are doing it on their own.

This is the reason I have been led to this site, for I know "they too" are being guided by His Spirit and everything said here by others is taken into my heart/mind and considered and His Spirit in me agrees with His Spirit in them, for in them I find:

THE LOVE OF GOD --- THE GOD OF LOVE

I still have "free will" in me, but I am guided by His will ....not giving life/power back to the "free will" I have been freed from.

my  :2c:

[WhiteWings]

You were guided to camp, so all will be fine :-)