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The truth hurts?

Started by Josh Crowell, July 07, 2018, 08:17:29 PM

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Josh Crowell

One thing that my mother has always said, that the reason people reject the doctrine of eternal damnation is because they hate God and hate the truth because they want to continue in sin and do whatever they want with their lives. She also mentioned that the people who end up in hell are essentially the same as the people who crucified Christ, basically we killed Christ in a spiritual sense. I have never told her that I believe in UR, if I did she would probably not even want to discuss it, because I feel she tends to avoid certain topics that could make her God look evil. One thing I want to make clear, my mother loves me, she does not want me to go to hell, especially since she believes most of her family is probably going to end up there due to their unbelief, and it does sadden her.

This is one of the things that has haunted me as of late. My obsessive thoughts have been intensifying, and my nights are sleepless. Last night I continuously tossed and turned mumbling about how I don't care what happens anymore, and how we're all probably going to hell anyway, because what are the odds that any of us are truly one of God's people? After all there are so many people who truly believe they are saved, but are they really? Not everybody can be right, because they all believe different things about God, and it's impossible for all of them to be true. I start getting the thoughts in my head about the whole KJV only doctrine which my mother believes, and whether aionios really means eternity in the bible. I've been having a hard time trusting or believing anyone or anything at all, and at times I feel like I'm going to go insane. The scariest thing is that sometimes I get this thought in my head that God is telling me these things.

So, what do you guys think? Is the truth supposed to hurt? Is this why so many people reject it?

jabcat

I of course don't agree with your mom, at least completely.  The best way to know truth is through the accurately translated and rightly divided scriptures, along with the Spirit revealing and illuminating those Words in our spirit and mind.  That includes UR in my opinion.

I also believe that the truth can hurt.  That could include an understanding of UR, because many people are afraid to give up their long-held and cherished positions (ET).  As far as truth hurting, several thoughts come to mind.  We often don't grow without pain.  We like our comfort zones and will hide there as long as we can - as long as it's comfortable :).  When it's no longer working for us, then we're "forced" to look at things from a different perspective and move off of center, adopting a new action/belief/position.  I believe God knows we learn that way.  The Word is quicker and sharper than a 2 edged sword...it cuts.  Then new can come to replace the old.  The cross is offensive to those perishing, but to us being saved, it is "the power of God".  As I understand, that's where the comfort is - being in His will, having our conscience at ease, being at peace with Him.  Close fellowship.  Paul suffered greatly.  But he was content, knowing he was exactly where God wanted Him.   :2c:  Blessings.
The oldest known manuscripts agree with each other 99% of the time.  The scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed - reliable.   Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

jabcat

So yes I think the truth can hurt (but not necessarily what your mom considers truth - she probably has some truth, and some untruth - like all of us).  But the hope and peace of it is, the TRUTH sets us free.   :thumbsup:
The oldest known manuscripts agree with each other 99% of the time.  The scriptures, accurately translated, Spirit revealed - reliable.   Looking unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith.  Heb. 12:2

jugghead

I agree with you jabcat

For me it was seeing the three possibilities and then using images to explain it

1. That NONE will be saved
2. That SOME will be saved, which is a mixture of some will be and some won't be
3. That ALL will be saved

Draw a horizontal line on a piece of paper and place the word "none" above the line and to the far left
NEXT
take the word "some" and place that above the line and in the middle
NEXT
take the word "all" and place that above the line and to the far right

Now
Take the word "atheist" and place that below the line and to the far left
NEXT
Take the words "eternal torment" (or ET) below the line and in the middle
NEXT
Take the words "universal reconciliation" (or UR) below the line and to the far right

Which should look like this:

NONE                       SOME                        ALL
_______________________________________

atheist                        ET                            UR

This is a picture of mankind without and with God in their life

Now add darkness and light to this picture and we get:

              NONE                       SOME                        ALL

darkness _______________________________________ light

              atheist                        ET                            UR

Now if we take this whole picture and rotate it counter clockwise where darkness is at the bottom and light is at the top with the line now being vertical

Now draw another horizontal line bisecting the vertical line in half, now at the bottom under the word "darkness" add the words "in the grave" and at the top above the word "light" write the words "out of the grave"

Our journey in this physical life is to understand that He is bringing us: "out of darkness" AND "out of the grave" at the same time .....

from "not understanding" (which is darkness) into "understanding" (which is light)
AND
from "the grave" (which is death) into "out of the grave" (which is life)

and I believe, this understanding is A LIGHT TO ALL MEN but we have to take a step forward in faith and believe that this is exactly what He is doing for ALL OF MANKIND and, I believe, this cannot take place if we do not believe in UR, we need to believe that "all things are possible with God" and to reject the possibility of "all being saved" is to reject the full potential of what He is capable of doing.

My  :2c:

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Justification Under God's Grace Having Every Answer Delivered

WhiteWings

Quote from: Josh Crowell on July 07, 2018, 08:17:29 PM
One thing that my mother has always said, that the reason people reject the doctrine of eternal damnation is because they hate God and hate the truth because they want to continue in sin and do whatever they want with their lives. She also mentioned that the people who end up in hell are essentially the same as the people who crucified Christ, basically we killed Christ in a spiritual sense.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

QuoteI have never told her that I believe in UR, if I did she would probably not even want to discuss it, because I feel she tends to avoid certain topics that could make her God look evil.
A sneak attack is often better than a frontal assault. So when she pulls out an ET verse you just ask her how she aligns it with an UR verse than seems to be about the same situation/person. Like the verse above. You don't even have to discus it. But you planted a seed.

QuoteNot everybody can be right,
Nobody is.

QuoteSo, what do you guys think? Is the truth supposed to hurt? Is this why so many people reject it?
John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

UR sets free. ET imprisons.
1 Timothy 2:3-4  ...God our Savior;  Who will have all men to be saved...
John 12:47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in the one who declares the ungodly righteous ...

Patinak

Quote from: WhiteWings on July 08, 2018, 11:32:07 AM
Quote from: Josh Crowell on July 07, 2018, 08:17:29 PM
One thing that my mother has always said, that the reason people reject the doctrine of eternal damnation is because they hate God and hate the truth because they want to continue in sin and do whatever they want with their lives. She also mentioned that the people who end up in hell are essentially the same as the people who crucified Christ, basically we killed Christ in a spiritual sense.
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

QuoteI have never told her that I believe in UR, if I did she would probably not even want to discuss it, because I feel she tends to avoid certain topics that could make her God look evil.
A sneak attack is often better than a frontal assault. So when she pulls out an ET verse you just ask her how she aligns it with an UR verse than seems to be about the same situation/person. Like the verse above. You don't even have to discus it. But you planted a seed.

QuoteNot everybody can be right,
Nobody is.

QuoteSo, what do you guys think? Is the truth supposed to hurt? Is this why so many people reject it?
John 8:32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

UR sets free. ET imprisons.
Good reply, good advice.

Dandelion

Hi Josh!

Think of us as pioneers, in a sense. Hell is a tough nut to crack. I so understand. As I have said before, some of my close friends who are Christians might well ostracize me when they find out that I believe in UR. But, I am fortunate, as I also have friends that believe in UR, and some who are okay with my way of looking at it, but don't agree with me. But, all that really doesn't matter, because, I believe, Truth has to be enough. Jesus said to worship in Spirit and Truth. That is enough for me. I believe the search for Truth must be one of the biggest undertakings of our life. Loving trumps it, but I think searching for Truth is a close second. And, Love, Truth, and God  are really one and the same.

What if you told your mom that Fred Rogers of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood was a Christian Universalist? (true)

I think most people liked Fred. Maybe that would help.

Excuse me for being a bit facetious, but, many people think that those that believe in UR are not like other Christians.

But, I do agree with jabcat....It is important to use scripture well, to explain our belief. And, to do that takes study and time. But, it is well worth it, I think. And, of course, the dear Holy Spirit must lead us and teach us. And, there are many good videos and books written that can guide us, as well. If we live a godly life, no one need think we just say it to escape Hell, because we can be a shining example to the world, that it is not about that. And, that coming to Christ is the most important thing we can do, whether or not there is a Hell. Our motivation needs to come from love and not escaping punishment. Motivation, not the outcome, is what is important to God.

St. Francis said, " Preach the Gospel, and sometimes use words." Our lives are our ministry and our storms are our messages.

Even, and perhaps especially, if we had rough times and struggles, for whatever reason. Our testimony needs to be, "Look at me....this is what God can do with anyone, if they give their life to Him."  We must be the light of the world.

D.
7"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8"For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened....

Matthew 7:7 -8

jugghead

Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Justification Under God's Grace Having Every Answer Delivered

Ross

John 8;31,32 " If you continue in My word you are truly My disciples,
                       and you will come to know the truth ,
                      and the truth will set you free."

I.M.O the true struggle is the flesh refusing to accept this truth that Christ's salvation is given to us; the truth which releases the fear of failure/rejection because there is no error in the work of Christ.
This then links with some being saved ahead of others just like the cream of the crop is picked first, then the rest come later.
The plan is so detailed and some know this before others- hence each in his own turn comes to know this glorious work of Christ.
Those who do not yet know this will come up with all sorts of excuses and opinions that "seem" to reject this truth. Satan feeds lies to this completeness of the work of Christ because that is Satan's job whilst this age is in progress.
The coming change of leadership will strip away all the lies that currently blur most people's vision/understanding.
My mum was a Baptist, believed Christ had saved her- yet could not accept all being saved. We did not talk about that- but my knowing it was not her time yet freed me from despair to a confident assurance that she will know some time in the future in her resurrection- which will probably be after the 1000 years. 1000 sounds a lot to the flesh, but is only a day to the spirit.
The truth may hurt initially, but when really understood makes much sense- also gives the literal knowledge that God will wipe away EVERY tear.
Fellow brother in Christ

rosered



   Been reading this  thread with   great interest .  Thanks Josh for the original post .

  Good answers   all  :friendstu:

I do believe  there is a great fear of being wrong  in our belief  system  , the bible warns of it  , making it even more scary  to anyone seeking salvation .

  Most  believers    say  they are saved , but  keep  a  fear of loosing it , as if it up to them to keep it   and not Jesus , whom is the author and finisher of our faith . :eek: LOVE  God first and foremost and the second is to love everyone as yourself  , You want to be saved , right ? .   When God is first  everyone is saved  already ,  by the resurrection  and the life which is Christ  in you the hope of glory  , just each in their own order , as it is written .

  Most religion  is defiled  , the bible teaches us  that ,,    by  giving us a  scripture , pure region undefiled is the help the fatherless and widow  ..

  Most read this literally and that is   a truth   , but there is a  comparing  of the literal meaning to a spiritual meaning   that is also of a truth   .

When leaving Babylon , you will be a fatherless one  and widow  indeed .   [ the religious mixing  of both the corruptible/lies  from the  incorruptible  WORD OF GOD and truth  .
I do believe it is GODS  SWORD that cuts and separates  the  corruptible  away   to be burned in the fire of Gods jealousy and LOVE   though  the Lord Jesus Christ  is His name  , there is no name under heaven by which you MUST be saved .
GOD in His Wisdom has made this as the only way , while being earthy  still and babes in Christ  , spiritually speaking .

His glory will not be shared with another   Isaiah 42 Here is My Servant....   
...7to open the eyes of the blind, to bring prisoners out of the dungeon, and those sitting in darkness out from the prison house.

8I am the LORD; that is My name! I will not give My glory to another or My praise to idols.

9Behold, the former things have happened, and now I declare new things. Before they spring forth I proclaim them to you."...


Jesus Christ come as a babe  , born of woman under the law and ministration of death   as in the flesh   in the fullness of time


and ministered  openly  of the miracles of Gods work   in and though Him  being conceived of the Holy Spirit  , died at the cross  and than rose again to prove to us that the  ETERNAL  Spirit  OF GOD  never dies, but makes alive and all things new  because He now has poured out as   the eternal offering   the gift of grace ,  a  free gift  ,  that He paid with His own blood  while being mortal  /temporary  condition  and has taken   sin = DEATH   away   from  us   and  is now the LORD OF THE DEAD AND THE LIVING  HIMSELF .

He sits at the right hand of God and is making intercession for us  all   
  Those that rise   will  rise in Christ dead or living , because HE IS THE LORD OF ALL ...

John 11   I AM THE RESURRECTION and Last DAY /1000yr reign = DAY    SON ...


24Martha replied, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."


25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.

26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

  the WORD I HAVE SPOKEN TO YOU WILL JUDGE YOU   belief in HIM SAVED YOU ...the truth sets you free  , the unbelief is the prison of lies that you must be set free from ...BELIEF ,an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.

synonyms:   faith, trust, reliance, confidence, credence



  John 12 Belief and Unbelief
...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.

48There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:

The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49  I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it....

What do you think the last day WORD   spoken will be ? 

  you are every whit whole and clean   John 15 Jesus the True Vine


...2He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful.


3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you.



4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me....


JESUS CHRIST  IS  ALL  THE LIFE  , there is none outside of Him [ Col 1 and 2 ]  We must all awaken  out of the sleep of death in Adam  to KNOW THIS .

And He has promised we all will , we just have to Believe in Him and believe Him as HIS WORD ., Which is the TRUTH that sets us all free .    :HeartThrob:

Jesus is the reward  !!

rosered

  PS

The truth hurts?

  No the lies hurt and harm us all  ,  it is the truth   that will set us all  free in the end .
    You cannot lie against the truth

  2 Cor 13 Examine Yourselves  makes sure you are in the faith ...


...7Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong—not that we will appear to have stood the test, but that you will do what is right, even if we appear to have failed.

8For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth. 9In fact, we rejoice when we are weak but you are strong, and our prayer is for your perfection....

Jesus is the reward  !!

marie glen

 :Chinscratch: oh! now I understand when the scripture complains about the sayings of the people.. (something about the children's teeth on edge?) - It's because we humans can be so negative about life.. Either overly optimistic - there is no evil, etc.. Or we expect the worst, as the 'saying' :laughing7: goes.

We can be sure, imo, ultimate truth will hurt no one.. But sets free all - Like Peter, or Paul (?) said "The Lord Jesus has healed you. Pick up thy bed and walk". Not, the Lord will heal, but the Lord has healed.. :2c:

But! The initial truth, that we are flawed.. and actually each one is very flawed.. That truth - at first - can and likely does 'hurt'. But it's a hurt that heals! As how can we repent if not convinced of needing to?

Also, if I remember right, about this saying, is, yes, truth can be like a sword, cutting through.. dividing true from untrue, and it is good to be very merciful with that sword! If we are wanting to flash it around and do surgery with it, it should be done on our self! All the rest, can be taken to the Lord in prayer.. Not that I think we need to be brutal with our self either! Oh yes, truth can be brutal.. to each and every one of us.. so it behooves us to be like Father who is gracious and full of mercy and compassion, even pity.. There is not one of us who is born saved! Or perfected.

But ultimate truth - when "all is said and done" and untruth has fallen and faded away, the collective "truth hurts"? - that truth of "Love never fails" completely blesses. ...But experience (w/ the Holy Ghost's convincing!) is the best teacher..

As we know, "God is the savior of all" 1 Tim 4:10; - Jesus said He will draw all to Him, Jn 12;32. - "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD" (when? we're only given a vague outline in Revelation) "and all families of the nations will rejoice/worship before Thee" Psalm 22:27. - "God is love" 1 Jn 4:8, - and "love never (ever) fails" 1 Cor 13:8. And, "every tongue will wholeheartedly confess Jesus is Lord" Philippians 2:11 (taking into account the original Greek).

I always remember too, how Jesus said "I have told you these things so your joy will be full" - if the "glad tidings to all", which I am believing, does not make me very happy and joyful, then something is wrong(!) ..in that perception and understanding, for as we know, the truth is what sets us free, and "the fruit of the Spirit" of truth, is "love, joy, peace.." And top of the list of course is Love.. so if Et were true we should all be beside ourselves with trying to convince all others.. And where is the peace and joy in that? But instead there would be desperation, etc.

And that's not listed as a fruit of the Spirit..

"Spirit of truth" verses, when I googled..

John 14:17
that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

John 15:26
"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

1 John 4:6
We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 5:6
This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

John 16:13
"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

    :Peace2: God bless!
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

marie glen

Quote from: jugghead on July 08, 2018, 02:35:44 AM

              NONE                       SOME                        ALL

darkness _______________________________________ light

              atheist                        ET                            UR

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: I like that!

Quote from: jugghead on July 08, 2018, 02:35:44 AM
Now if we take this whole picture and rotate it counter clockwise where darkness is at the bottom and light is at the top with the line now being vertical

I too, am partial to 'formulas' (outlines/summaries, etc). I did a short formula/sentence on the Book of Revelation/latter day bible prophecy, :Chinscratch: I wonder just where that is, on my blog..

So..

Quote from: jugghead on July 08, 2018, 02:35:44 AM
Now draw another horizontal line bisecting the vertical line in half, now at the bottom under the word "darkness" add the words "in the grave" and at the top above the word "light" write the words "out of the grave"

                                   |
            darkness          |   
                                   |    death (untruth,error?)
           in the grave       |         
      ______________________________
     
           light                  |
                                   |     life (Truth)
           out of the grave |                     
                                   |


Quote from: jugghead on July 08, 2018, 02:35:44 AM
Our journey in this physical life is to understand that He is bringing us: "out of darkness" AND "out of the grave" at the same time .....

from "not understanding" (which is darkness) into "understanding" (which is light)
AND
from "the grave" (which is death) into "out of the grave" (which is life)

and I believe, this understanding is A LIGHT TO ALL MEN but we have to take a step forward in faith and believe that this is exactly what He is doing for ALL OF MANKIND and, I believe, this cannot take place if we do not believe in UR, we need to believe that "all things are possible with God" and to reject the possibility of "all being saved" is to reject the full potential of what He is capable of doing.

My  :2c:

  Amen!  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

marie glen

"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

marie glen

Quote from: Ross on July 09, 2018, 03:10:31 AM
John 8;31,32 " If you continue in My word you are truly My disciples,
                       and you will come to know the truth ,
                      and the truth will set you free."

I.M.O the true struggle is the flesh refusing to accept this truth that Christ's salvation is given to us; the truth which releases the fear of failure/rejection because there is no error in the work of Christ.
This then links with some being saved ahead of others just like the cream of the crop is picked first, then the rest come later.


..the firstfruits which happen to come up first and represents (in the waving of the sheaf on Firstfruits) the whole (harvest)

Quote from: Ross on July 09, 2018, 03:10:31 AM
The plan is so detailed and some know this before others- hence each in his own turn comes to know this glorious work of Christ.
Those who do not yet know this will come up with all sorts of excuses and opinions that "seem" to reject this truth. Satan feeds lies to this completeness of the work of Christ because that is Satan's job whilst this age is in progress.
The coming change of leadership will strip away all the lies that currently blur most people's vision/understanding.
My mum was a Baptist, believed Christ had saved her- yet could not accept all being saved. We did not talk about that- but my knowing it was not her time yet freed me from despair to a confident assurance that she will know some time in the future in her resurrection- which will probably be after the 1000 years. 1000 sounds a lot to the flesh, but is only a day to the spirit.
The truth may hurt initially, but when really understood makes much sense- also gives the literal knowledge that God will wipe away EVERY tear.

I think sincere believers, even Et believers, will rise in the first resurrection at Jesus' return.. But I think some will "be caught unaware" during perilous times.. which work as fiery consequences/judgment.. just my :2c: :gsmile:

Quote from: Ross on July 09, 2018, 03:10:31 AM
from despair to a confident assurance

     :thumbsup: :cloud9: :cloud9:
"I will draw ALL to Me." [Jesus, Jn.12:32] Written in the pattern of the Holy Days? an image - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com
Enter The Story Annual Reading Schedule ~ https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html

CST

Quote from: marie glen on July 10, 2018, 05:06:38 PM
:Chinscratch: oh! now I understand when the scripture complains about the sayings of the people.. (something about the children's teeth on edge?) - It's because we humans can be so negative about life.. Either overly optimistic - there is no evil, etc.. Or we expect the worst, as the 'saying' :laughing7: goes.

"The parents have eaten sour grapes and the children's teeth are set on edge." is essentially the expression you were reaching for there. I'm not sure the Bible was making any complaints about it. It was taken as a legitimate reaction to the claim of God that the sins of the father were transferred to the sons to the third and forth generation. God used the reference to say in the future this was no longer be true, but at the time it still was true so far as I can tell.

But I see your general main point humans can be very negative about life, cynical idea. The expectation of people to act exclusively for their own benefit, to do the worst things necessary to get what they want and to use the awful behaviour of others as an excuse.

Not really very helpful and not an attitude conducive to loving either God, your neighbour or, indeed, yourself.

As I understand the claim 'there is no evil' isn't generally optimistic (though it can be) it is usually nihilistic, the belief that there are no true values in the world at all except that those we ascribe, for our benefit, to things without the actual authority to do so.

Shev

We will often debate our "belief systems". and even doubt our own at times, but I think it pertinent to always point out that the touchstone for every truth is the person of Jesus Christ. If hell is a reality, it should be reflected in His life, and in how the Spirit leads us. If UR is a reality, the same rules apply. This is one of the logical conclusions that ET fails to recognize - if it is Godly to torment people for ever, we must learn this same mercilessness, as this is godliness! If hell is a reality built upon God's holiness being greater than His love (and let's leave the "divided against Himself" argument for a moment), then our holiness should be of a similar harsh nature, triumphing over any instincts of forgiveness or love. Of course, these are absurdities, because they spring from an absurd doctrine, which is why so many aspects of ET are not taken to their logical conclusion.

jugghead

Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: (Isaiah 29:13)
Wisdom is not measured by time, it is measured by understanding

Justification Under God's Grace Having Every Answer Delivered

CST

Quote from: Shev on July 18, 2018, 12:23:25 PM
We will often debate our "belief systems". and even doubt our own at times, but I think it pertinent to always point out that the touchstone for every truth is the person of Jesus Christ. If hell is a reality, it should be reflected in His life, and in how the Spirit leads us. If UR is a reality, the same rules apply. This is one of the logical conclusions that ET fails to recognize - if it is Godly to torment people for ever, we must learn this same mercilessness, as this is godliness! If hell is a reality built upon God's holiness being greater than His love (and let's leave the "divided against Himself" argument for a moment), then our holiness should be of a similar harsh nature, triumphing over any instincts of forgiveness or love. Of course, these are absurdities, because they spring from an absurd doctrine, which is why so many aspects of ET are not taken to their logical conclusion.

Unfortunately ET proponents will just point to examples from the Old Testament where God's Holiness really does seem that harsh and then say that any who don't have this harshness in themselves simply lack Holiness, which is to be expected since we all do to great degree and follow that by saying why that lack is evidence of our damned state.

They will they say that they are trying to be so harsh but weak, sappy, unholy legislation by liberals is making it criminal to do so. So they are persecuted as the Bible teaches they will be.

So exasperating.

Ross

Quote from: CST on July 19, 2018, 12:08:09 PM

They will they say that they are trying to be so harsh but weak, sappy, unholy legislation by liberals is making it criminal to do so. So they are persecuted as the Bible teaches they will be.

So exasperating.

Phil 3;18,19 " For many are living [ I have often told you about them, but now tell you even with tears],
                     as enemies of the cross of Christ.
                     Their end is destruction,
                      their god is their belly,
                     AND THEY GLORY IN THEIR SHAME.
                     Their minds are set on earthly things."

1 Tim 6;3-5 " If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not adhere to the healthy words of our Lord Jesus Christ
                    and the teaching that leads to godliness,
                    he is puffed up with conceit,
                    UNDERSTANDING NOTHING,
                    but has a sickly craving for speculations,
                    and fights about words,
                    out of which come envy, strife, slanders, evil suspicions,
                    constant irritations among people who have been corrupted in their mind and have been robbed of the truth,
                    IMAGINING that godliness is a means of profit."

Been there. Done that. Thanks to our Lord have moved on.
However needed to go through that to FULLY appreciate Christ.
The real deal surpasses the imitations.
Fellow brother in Christ

MusicLover123

Thank you!

Here are a couple more to add to what Ross mentioned:

2Ti 2:4  no one serving as a soldier did entangle himself with the affairs of life, that him who did enlist him he may please

Mat 6:25  'Because of this I say to you, be not anxious for your life, what ye may eat, and what ye may drink, nor for your body, what ye may put on. Is not the life more than the nourishment, and the body than the clothing? 
Mat 6:26  look to the fowls of the heaven, for they do not sow, nor reap, nor gather into storehouses, and your heavenly Father doth nourish them; are not ye much better than they? 
Mat 6:27  'And who of you, being anxious, is able to add to his age one cubit? 
Mat 6:28  and about clothing why are ye anxious? consider well the lilies of the field; how do they grow? they do not labour, nor do they spin; 
Mat 6:29  and I say to you, that not even Solomon in all his glory was arrayed as one of these. 
Mat 6:30  'And if the herb of the field, that to-day is, and to-morrow is cast to the furnace, God doth so clothe—not much more you, O ye of little faith? 
Mat 6:31  therefore ye may not be anxious, saying, What may we eat? or, What may we drink? or, What may we put round? 
Mat 6:32  for all these do the nations seek for, for your heavenly Father doth know that ye have need of all these; 
Mat 6:33  but seek ye first the reign of God and His righteousness, and all these shall be added to you. 
Mat 6:34  Be not therefore anxious for the morrow, for the morrow shall be anxious for its own things; sufficient for the day is the evil of it. 
John 1
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

guest6024

Quote from: Josh Crowell on July 07, 2018, 08:17:29 PM
One thing that my mother has always said, that the reason people reject the doctrine of eternal damnation is because they hate God and hate the truth because they want to continue in sin and do whatever they want with their lives. She also mentioned that the people who end up in hell are essentially the same as the people who crucified Christ, basically we killed Christ in a spiritual sense. I have never told her that I believe in UR, if I did she would probably not even want to discuss it, because I feel she tends to avoid certain topics that could make her God look evil. One thing I want to make clear, my mother loves me, she does not want me to go to hell, especially since she believes most of her family is probably going to end up there due to their unbelief, and it does sadden her.

This is one of the things that has haunted me as of late. My obsessive thoughts have been intensifying, and my nights are sleepless. Last night I continuously tossed and turned mumbling about how I don't care what happens anymore, and how we're all probably going to hell anyway, because what are the odds that any of us are truly one of God's people? After all there are so many people who truly believe they are saved, but are they really? Not everybody can be right, because they all believe different things about God, and it's impossible for all of them to be true. I start getting the thoughts in my head about the whole KJV only doctrine which my mother believes, and whether aionios really means eternity in the bible. I've been having a hard time trusting or believing anyone or anything at all, and at times I feel like I'm going to go insane. The scariest thing is that sometimes I get this thought in my head that God is telling me these things.

So, what do you guys think? Is the truth supposed to hurt? Is this why so many people reject it?

Josh you're right these are nothing more than 'obsessive thoughts'.
Everyone gets them it's just part of being human. (A thinking being).
Sometimes people think their thoughts are from God or from the devil etc but more often than not they are just our own 'imaginings' unless we have proof of the contrary.

Basically your thoughts are 'at war' (opposed to one-another) and so you can't find 'peace of mind' as they both conflict!  There is a 'debate' going on in your mind as you struggle to find the 'answer' which will 'help' you.

My advice would be to try to just be an observer to your thoughts and watch them argue with one another (whilst you remain calm and unaffected as much as possible)  (just watch them argue and debate with each other).  Think of your thoughts as two people having a debate and then decide who is making the most RATIONAL, LOGICAL SENSE.  Who is most loving?  (God is love remember so the most loving thoughts are the God thoughts).

Again...BE RATIONAL!
For example: You know there is no hell. 
It's a FACT so stop stressing about the possibility that there is a hell.  There ISN'T.  You know it.  Accept it, move on.
You know there is no eternal torment...AGAIN it is evident from scripture.  You know it, accept it, it doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks, the bible (properly translated) says it isn't...Move on.
It is also obvious from common sense and inward knowing that God (love) does not pointlessly and eternally torture it's own creation. 
God is love and the way to know God is love and if you love enough you won't fear as much and will 'know' God more (His intentions and so on) (Which are good). 

I love you brother...Even I would do you no harm and want what is best for you.  I spend time writing this today FOR YOU for no other reason than love...Which is no doubt the same for everyone here.  Each of us are trying to help you in our own way.  The best gift I can give to you is my love.  If I mean you no harm then how much more so the one who is love itself?

The best thing that helps me when I'm going through/having similar things/thoughts is getting outside...Going for a long long walk and INTERACTING/TALKING to people...ALWAYS to MAKE that effort when you go out. 
Aim to talk to at least one person each time you go out then add to that...It could be anything:
"Nice dog you have there", or:
"I love your flowers in your garden". 
Just smile and be joyful even if you aren't...Share a little love. 
When you put your head on your pillow at night THAT is what will matter to you...The fact that you shared some love that day.  That means the day wasn't a waste of time...Because in it you did the single best thing anyone of us can do...you loved. 
Love is the highest...It doesn't get any better than that.
You might just notice you start to make a lot of new friends as more people get to know you and your world becomes a little lighter...

Be brave enough to believe that GOD IS GREAT and GOD WILL save ALL of us from ourselves...from our pain and sins and mistakes and heartbreaks and faults and illnesses... Break out of your present situation.  Get away from books and bibles and all that for a while!  None of us were born with a book in our hands!  Again; focus on love!
"But, my child, let me give you some further advice: Be careful, for writing books is endless, and much study wears you out".

Nobody has ALL the answers but we have the best answer: Love, which is more important than our very faith.  Love should be our main focus...Doctrine, theology and time spent on 'other things' (including thoughts about other things) should be secondary.

EVERYONE is saved.  The wages of sin is death and in Adam all die and in Christ all are made alive...Each in their own time/order.  That's fact.

No family agrees 100% on things and other people's views can clash with our own.  But truth is truth and it's going to be truth whatever anyone 'thinks'.

Praying you get over this soon and you find new joy in your life.

...There's a lot of bad things on the planet...But it doesn't mean you have to like it.
It doesn't mean you have to go along with it.

sheila

God's love exceeds man's ability to comprehend...thus...THE MYSTERY of godliness/godlessness..and REVELATION.

Faith hope and love remain.  He is showing us what love is.Who He is...and who we are.