The Two Witnesses of the Book of Revelation

[trettep]

Here is your assignment:

Find a picture of a menorah.  Label each candlestick of the menorah with the name of each Church mentioned in chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation. Put the word Jesus in the center of the menorah.

Now read each chapter (2 and 3) and remove or cross out the name of each Church on the menorah that God finds disfavor with.

What remains?  - the answer is Philadelphia and Smyrna.  And you will find that they are the middle candlesticks on each end of the menorah and Jesus is still in the center of them.

The Candlesticks represent the manifestation or the Spirit in the members of the Church overall.  Therefore, we see that God has found fault in His Church and it needs a cleansing.  The Two Witnesses are those that are blameless before God.

So the Two Witnesses are not Elijah or Enoch or Moses etc... but rather those that are Blameless before God.  They are most likely a numerous entity of believers that may be scattered all over the world.

[trettep]

Let's give you further insight into more related prophecies to the Two Witnesses. Look at the following verses:

Rev 12:14  And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 

Here is the Woman above - which is the Mother of Jesus Christ:

Mar 3:32  And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 
Mar 3:33  And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? 
Mar 3:34  And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 
Mar 3:35  For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. 

You see those of the Woman pictured here are the Two Witnesses that are unable to be deceived.  The Serpent (Devil/Satan) tries to deceive the Witnesses but is unable to:

Rev 12:15  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 

The flood is the deception/lies. 

[trettep]

Rev 12:17  And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. 

The remnant of Her seed are those members of the Church that God found fault with.

[rosered]

 :dsunny:

  Many have different ideas  of the two witnesses   
and have heard many over the years

  Zech 4 calls   them sons of fresh oil and it sure is described as a menorah   


13 And he answered me, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two sons of oil [Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the prince of Judah, the two anointed ones] who stand before the Lord of the whole earth [as His anointed instruments].

The oil used in anointing symbolizes the Holy Spirit (Zech. 4:6). The combination of priest and ruler points ultimately to the Messianic Priest-King (Ps. 110; Zech. 6:13; Heb. 7).

[trettep]

:dsunny:

  Many have different ideas  of the two witnesses   
and have heard many over the years

  Zech 4 calls   them sons of fresh oil and it sure is described as a menorah   


13 And he answered me, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two sons of oil [Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the prince of Judah, the two anointed ones] who stand before the Lord of the whole earth [as His anointed instruments].

The oil used in anointing symbolizes the Holy Spirit (Zech. 4:6). The combination of priest and ruler points ultimately to the Messianic Priest-King (Ps. 110; Zech. 6:13; Heb. 7).

Yes, the oil is the Holy Spirit.  But the Two Witnesses are not Joshua and Zerubbabel and that become more obvious the more you study the book of Revelation.

[rosered]

:dsunny:

  Many have different ideas  of the two witnesses   
and have heard many over the years

  Zech 4 calls   them sons of fresh oil and it sure is described as a menorah   


13 And he answered me, Do you not know what these are? And I said, No, my lord.

14 Then said he, These are the two sons of oil [Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the prince of Judah, the two anointed ones] who stand before the Lord of the whole earth [as His anointed instruments].

The oil used in anointing symbolizes the Holy Spirit (Zech. 4:6). The combination of priest and ruler points ultimately to the Messianic Priest-King (Ps. 110; Zech. 6:13; Heb. 7).

Yes, the oil is the Holy Spirit.  But the Two Witnesses are not Joshua and Zerubbabel and that become more obvious the more you study the book of Revelation.

  I personally always felt it was the WORD  and the SPIRIT  that were the two witnesses   the 3 that agree as One  in  heaven   the heavenly witness and the earthly witness ...   1 John  5 ;4 For whatever is born of God is victorious over the world; and this is the victory that conquers the world, even our faith.

5 Who is it that is victorious over [that conquers] the world but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God [who adheres to, trusts in, and relies on that fact]?

6 This is He Who came by (with) water and blood [[a]His baptism and His death], Jesus Christ (the Messiah)—not by (in) the water only, but by (in) the water and the blood. And it is the [Holy] Spirit Who bears witness, because the [Holy] Spirit is the Truth.

7 So there are three witnesses in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One;

8 and there are three witnesses on the earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree [are in unison; their testimony coincides].

  :2c:  I have never found any agreement  , it is just   I have always felt these  are dead in us till God awakens   us    when reading rev 11   
It would be the living word /seed  of Christ /Truth and the Holy Spirit   that always bears witness to the truth  and the   true worshippers  of God are in the Spirit and the  Truth     in heaven   as it is in the earth     through    the power of the Lord Jesus Christ  that come into effect after   the cross   and he   had risen from the dead to   take death captive  . HE   that he holds  everything in Himself   BEING both the Lord of the dead and the living and up to Him  ALONE   in heaven  above  and earth  below

    Col 1 15 [Now] He is the exact likeness of the unseen God [the visible representation of the invisible]; He is the Firstborn of all creation.

16 For it was in Him that all things were created, in heaven and on earth, things seen and things unseen, whether thrones, dominions, rulers, or authorities; all things were created and exist through Him [by His service, intervention] and in and for Him.

17 And He Himself existed before all things, and in Him all things consist (cohere, are held together).

18 He also is the Head of [His] body, the church; seeing He is the Beginning, the Firstborn from among the dead, so that He alone in everything and in every respect might occupy the chief place [stand first and be preeminent].

19 For it has pleased [the Father] that all the divine fullness (the sum total of the divine perfection, powers, and attributes) should dwell in Him permanently.

20 And God purposed that through (by the service, the intervention of) Him [the Son] all things should be completely reconciled [r]back to Himself, whether on earth or in heaven, as through Him, [the Father] made peace by means of the blood of His cross.

21 And although you at one time were estranged and alienated from Him and were of hostile attitude of mind in your wicked activities,

22 Yet now has [Christ, the Messiah] reconciled [you to God] in the body of His flesh through death, in order to present you holy and faultless and irreproachable in His [the Father's] presence.

23 [And this He will do] provided that you continue to stay with and in the faith [in Christ], well-grounded and settled and steadfast, not shifting or moving away from the hope [which rests on and is inspired by] the glad tidings (the Gospel), which you heard and which has been preached [as being designed for and offered without restrictions] to every person under heaven, and of which [Gospel] I, Paul, became a minister.

24 [Even] now I rejoice in the midst of my sufferings on your behalf. And in my own person I am making up whatever is still lacking and remains to be completed []on our part] of Christ's afflictions, for the sake of His body, which is the church.

25 In it I became a minister in accordance with the divine stewardship which was entrusted to me for you [as its object and for your benefit], to make the Word of God fully known [among you]—

26 The mystery of which was hidden for ages and generations [from angels and men], but is now revealed to His holy people (the saints),

27 To whom God was pleased to make known how great for the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ within and among you, the Hope of [realizing the] glory.

28 Him we preach and proclaim, warning and admonishing everyone and instructing everyone in all wisdom (comprehensive insight into the ways and purposes of God), that we may present every person mature (full-grown, fully initiated, complete, and perfect) in Christ (the Anointed One).

29 For this I labor [unto weariness], striving with all the [aa]superhuman energy which He so mightily enkindles and works within me.     

[trettep]

We need to ensure we are seeing a type before the the fulfillment.

Think of your image in a mirror.  The image in the mirror is not you but the is a reflection of you.  We need to find these "images" in the Bible and see how they relate to the Spiritual understanding.  So we look for an earthly type that represents that which is Spiritual.

Consider the Temple.  It had a Holy Place and the Most Holy Place.  You couldn't get into the Most Holy Place without first going through the Holy Place.  You can see how the Holy Place represented the Son and the Most Holy Place represented the Father.  This a type and a Spiritual Equivalent. Nobody can come to the Father but through the Son.

[jabcat]

trettep has been banned for 1 day to re-think his posting style based on stated forum expectations.
This has been discussed in private, and rejected by him. 

As most know; generally, discussion not declaration, reasoning together vs. any one person's teaching platform, is the expected default setting. 

[jabcat]

:dsunny:

  Many have different ideas  of the two witnesses   
and have heard many over the years

 

Yes rose, that's the point.  There are various understandings, points of view.  When any one person declares their view is the "right" view, then there's limited room for discussion or exploring together.  Thank you for always posting in the spirit of fellowship and discussion.   :thumbsup:

[MusicLover123]

trettep has been banned for 1 day to re-think his posting style based on stated forum expectations.
This has been discussed in private, and rejected by him. 

As most know; generally, discussion not declaration, reasoning together vs. any one person's teaching platform, is the expected default setting.

Hopefully it won't turn out like that other person from back then...

[rosered]

    Thanks   James ,
  I could be   all wrong about many things  , all we all can  do is share   what is in our hearts  ,

and just maybe consider it   or not and  I have changed /repented over many errors  of judgments /opinions over the years  , learning  is an ever changing  thing  ,  that we all might grow in truth and grace as God gives the increase  and permits .
   
  I apologize for the  bolded black ,  went and  removed it , and honestly do not know how that happened  :doh:

[trettep]

I wont post further.

[GodIsLove]

Hi trettep,
I see what James is talking about (your posting style is not worded as "I think..." etc) but I hate to see anyone stop posting here. I often wonder about people who used to post and stopped, I miss a lot of them. I think u have interesting ideas, and I would like to keep hearing them if you feel like sharing.

Edit: ...within the parameters here...

[GodIsLove]

trettep has been banned for 1 day to re-think his posting style based on stated forum expectations.
This has been discussed in private, and rejected by him. 

As most know; generally, discussion not declaration, reasoning together vs. any one person's teaching platform, is the expected default setting.

Hopefully it won't turn out like that other person from back then...

:dontknow:

ML you crack me up sometimes...  :laughing7:

[rosered]

I wont post further.

I am just so sorry  bro ....
  I did not mean to cause you any   troubles 
I love when folks share ,   this forum is  very strict

  Some times I am even surprised   I have not been banned for some of the  things I have shared over the years .
I do believe the style  required is with grace and not by force

  I knew a fellow whom repented over  being a  forceful sharer   after many years  , because  he was brash   and a bit of a bully and made you feel like if you didn't agree with him   you were an idiot , now that fellow [ using  as  an example only ]


was 100 times more  inconsiderate   than your  sharing style  , brutish even .

  I have always felt that if the Holy Spirit is teaching us  all  , it will bear witness in our spirit  of a truth
You can share this  food for thought   and put it on the table    , but if it is not meant for that person  whom reads it ,  they can not receive it   as of yet .

  But if your heart   motive  is to see this  place   as a table  and as  a love feast  , we must also consider  it as  in the Psalms   in the presence of our enemies     , some are still locked up under the law  of sin /error &  death   

   The truth  will set them free  when   the Lord   Himself opens up the scriptures   as the seals are being removed   and the Holy Spirit will bear witness    in them .
For me it has always been the inward   working   , saying  our bodies are not just flesh and blood , but spiritual    to even be able to  receive any truth at all   ,  something as simple as believing Jesus Christ is the son of God   is    a gift of God .

And   our spiritual bodies are the temple  of the living God  , so I was understanding your  post , but  each of us must take it with a grain of salt   with humility   or we can never share the things of God  with one another    without stumbling   ourselves  or one another  over the TRUTH   .
Many times if what you have is all you want and you are not open minded  enough  to even listen   to anyone else  , it can be  compared to cutting off the ears of the hearers     and we all know by now the  scripture that faith comes by hearing   what the Spirit is saying  increasing  faith  in our Lords working  within us all

  I am not saying you are doing that at all , but  many times   we   all speak in  the same authority , the Lord chose to chasten   

   the hearers  with a rod of iron  , shattering ideas and imaginations     that kept many from   growing in truth and grace in the Spirit of Life 
as to shattering the image of a man  of sin  held in a clay vessel that has been hardened   and ready   for the  Spiritual son of God to be   revealed and set free  from that old corruptible image

Some times discerning   the spirits in a man is also   difficult    to even know if it is of GOD  or just some  anti Christ spirit 
  posing itself   to be like    the Lords voice , many   denied the Lord as the real deal    in  his time
   The best we can do is trust the LORD   to help us and teach  us  all   and the scriptures  say by their fruits/works  you will know them ....

  that is the main teaching tool to learn by,,, in my own opinion   , is is peaceable ,bearing fruits of the Holy Spirit  working in them and though them .

And  Jesus called James and John the sons of thunder  , when they were desiring to send fire down from heaven on a group  in town they visited  , Jesus  told them they did not know what manner of spirit they were of  ,  I think He was wanting them to do some introspection ,  the examination or observation of one's own mental and emotional processes

  we are all  under   the  law  right now  and being judged by that law  , if it be the  law under  the  ministation of death or the law of ministration of reconciliation  to Life       

  we are  called to one or the other  , sweet waters or bitter  waters / voices    ,  Jesus  to me,  was letting us  / them know  , if you  want to be under that old law you have to keep it all , if you fail at any point  ,   and judge others by it and not yourself  you will also be destroyed by it also  , after you are done judging others by it  , you also will be judged accordingly    ..

It is a serious matter , most in ignorance do not understand   and are given a few stripes  , because the chastening of the LORD  and being scourged  is how  we are received   into His Kingdom   as sons  of God , spiritual in nature  and  pride is the main component    that is  judged  , that spirit of pride  , and it has to be burned out of us all ,  by the fire of Gods love and jealousy      and flesh and blood has nothing to do with it .

Love your enemies and do good to those  that  treat you poorly
  Luke 6 is a heavy duty  standard and it is  a  strict   teacher
22Blessed are you when people hate you, and when they exclude you and insult you and reject your name as evil because of the Son of Man. 23Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For their fathers treated the prophets in the same way.

Woes
(Amos 6:1-7)

24But woe to you who are rich,

for you have already received your comfort.

25Woe to you who are well fed now,

for you will hunger.

Woe to you who laugh now,

for you will mourn and weep.

26Woe to you when all men speak well of you,

for their fathers treated the false prophets in the same way.

Love Your Enemies
(Leviticus 24:17-23; Matthew 5:38-48)

27But to those of you who will listen, I say:

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

28bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.

And if someone takes your cloak, do not withhold your tunic as well.

30Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what is yours, do not demand it back.

31Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?

Even sinners love those who love them. 33If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do the same.

34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.

35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them, expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High;

for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Do Not Judge
(Matthew 7:1-6; Romans 14:1-12)

37Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

39Jesus also told them a parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40A disciple is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.

41Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but fail to notice the beam in your own eye? 42How can you say, 'Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,' while you yourself fail to see the beam in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

A Tree and its Fruit
(Matthew 7:15-23; Matthew 12:33-37)

43No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44For each tree is known by its own fruit. Indeed, people do not gather figs from thornbushes, or grapes from brambles. 45The good man brings good things out of the good treasure of his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil treasure of his heart. For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks.


  Seeking the Lords approval  in the things of the world and how we treat one another has some   codes we cannot by pass  without consequences ,
it can only be done when the Spirit of God is in you and working in you and getting you though  that to
that law of Life and liberty  , we must Love God first  in order for it to work properly  , Love is of God  , we cannot do anything right without  Him  and His approval  , it will come to nothing   for sure as we are trying   to please Him   and without that faith in the Lord we will fail the test of faith every time   in my opinion , God knows I sure have  seen  the results of being a failure 

  when the testing  is  over  and the inspection is  known , makes me ashamed   of the fruit of my doings  , just like a  whipping when I was a child  and did not obey  my parents , what they done was for my own good   , but it took a while for me to realize it at the time  ,  when reflecting  what had just happened  and had to repent  of that  way of thinking and doing  things   and not do it that way/ my way   any longer :sigh:

[jabcat]

You have not caused any problems rose, please rest assured.  Things have been previously addressed in private. But when there is a direct refusal and outright no-bones-about-it rejection of requests along with attempted justification, followed by continued public proceedings, it may be pertinent to notify in the thread that things won't be continuing as started and even why.  There's more I could say but as we try to limit the amount of discussion of specific moderation issues in public, I guess we'll just see how this plays out.  Thanks.


p.s.  i guess we are "strict" :o, but things are clearly spelled out in the forum guidelines, including posting implies agreement to follow the expectations.  Then, as noted, problems are attempted to be handled privately.  if refused, argued with, and then continued posting as addressed continues, further moderation may occur from time-to-time.  BY FAR most posters are willing to follow the guidelines, as it's really not that tough for most folks to post in a spirit of "as I see", "as I understand", "I believe", etc. (even if not always explicitly stated - a spirit/attitude of such). 

Some though believe they have the absolute interpretation and understanding, and are called to teach everyone else their specific POV - to the point of being unwilling to even consider saying "I believe" or "in my opinion".  As if doing so would destroy their message/mission.  I really don't think it will kill anyone to follow the post guidelines as presented.   :laugh:   And again, BY FAR, pretty much everyone does.  :2c:

[MusicLover123]

Ray seemed to consider the two witnesses verses of Scripture attesting to God's truth.

Isaiah 28:10 For rule [is] on rule, rule on rule, line on line, line on line, A little here, a little there

Notice the "line on line." Is this not two truths/verses complimenting/being witnesses to God? TOTALLY a dichotomy to the "context, Context, CONTEXT!" crowd.

Psalm 119:160 The sum of Thy word [is] truth, And to the age [is] every judgment of Thy righteousness!

Notice especially that the SUM of His word is truth. Not only is the WHOLE thing true, but also the SUM of it. As God "does not lie" every verse attests to each other, and has no true contradiction. If I were to take out even one verse out or change it, would it be the same sum? Same goes for math equations. If you changes even ONE number, you make an entirely different product.

Why else would we be instructed to not take out, add, or change any of His words?

I see no problem with it meaning multiple things though.

[sheila]

the context is always centered on what God says and how He means it and what He is revealing. For example...the line upon the lines in the scripture regarding

the Messiah...is here a little[passages sprinkled throughtout the different books] as here a little there a little. Samewith the revealingof the salvationof allmen.

thereis no nice'concise' in context chapter speaking these things.The mystery..........etc God'sauthority over His'Word"whatitmeans,whenitis revealedy..howitisfulfilled etc.

...why else would they stumble and fall backwards over it?it is Not man's interpretation or context..never has been..and never will be....

   the sum of THY WORDS=man must live by every word from the mouth of God. not  the law of condemnation unto death[tokogae]but the commandment

unto LIFE[TOL] all men died because 'sin'entered..is not the end of it!!!!All men must rise in the image of Christ and live!!!

all things are yours!

Heis the sum of ALL HIS PARTS.   And His grand SUM mation IS ALL IN ALL.

of coarse..it is written of the hying pen of the scribes..and those heaping up heavy loads....and those teaching 'commandments of men'even unto the invalidating the

WORD OF GOD[corban as ex]

the context crowd stumble and fall backwards :thumbsup: :2c:

[jabcat]

Yes, but surely we're using some discretion?  As in, in some situations/passages there is obviously context and so it is important to rightly divide?  I believe we obviously should be careful and consider all things, while determining (with the Lord's help) when it is "line upon line" and when it is context/time to rightly divide.   :2c:  :)

But that's just my view, maybe others see it differently.   :Peace2:

[MusicLover123]

Good things to consider here :)

I think it is good to take note context for that passage. But, when it becomes, for example, saying verses like 1 John 4:8, where "God is love" is ONLY applicable in the context of 1 John and nowhere else, is pretty "stupid" in my opinion.

I get this feeling that there A LOT of things yet to be revealed to us. Like, if you were scratching the surface of the Grand Canyon would be an example of that.

It just seems a bit limiting to me to say that a verse must only mean one thing. On the other hand, rightly dividing is an important thing to take note. Using the sword like in Hebrews 4:12, rightly cutting the sin and carnality off of other things, yet being careful not to stab our eyes out.

[jabcat]

Yes!   :clapping:

His Words are life.

On the other hand, I could pull 100 different statements out of scripture, out of their context, and we'd have little-to-no idea what we we're talking about;  to whom, why, about what, how it specifically applies, etc.  Ex.:  "go and you will find a young donkey..take him"...

It's like my wife and I were having a discussion just now.  She said, "that can't be done until the end".   Without proper context, what was she talking about?  The end of what?  The world, our particular lives, the road, of next week?  Actually, we were talking about packing to move and she meant "when other things are done and it's time to do that"..you know, "the end"   :laugh:


Anyway, not to belabor, so I'll shut up.  Until the "end".... :LH:     :handshake:

[rosered]

Notice especially that the SUM of His word is truth. Not only is the WHOLE thing true, but also the SUM of it. As God "does not lie" every verse attests to each other, and has no true contradiction. If I were to take out even one verse out or change it, would it be the same sum? Same goes for math equations. If you changes even ONE number, you make an entirely different product.

Why else would we be instructed to not take out, add, or change any of His words?

I see no problem with it meaning multiple things though.

  Exactly true     :banana:    , when you do consider   just how the  serpent  added one word   to the  truth     , God said you shall surly die the day you eat of the tree

  but the serpent said ,  you shall NOT   surly die  , one word changed the whole truth into  a lie  !!!

   Gods Word judges us all     John 12 ...47As for anyone who hears My words and does not keep them, I do not judge him.

For I have not come to judge the world, but to save the world.


48  There is a judge for the one who rejects Me and does not receive My words:

The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.


49I have not spoken on My own, but the Father who sent Me has commanded Me what to say and how to say it....


Gods Word  will not return to Him void  :dsunny:    the sum of truth is by the Holy Spirit as a witness , even Paul said his  conscience bears witness with the Holy Spirit  of truth  with his   sad concern for the Jews

  Romans 9 1I speak the truth in Christ; I am not lying, as confirmed by my conscience in the Holy Spirit. 2I have deep sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart....3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my own flesh and blood,

Today I was moping the floors   this morning and was concerned  for  a sweet friend  whos funeral   was today   , I was preparing to go to  ... in thoughts and prayers
And I love how the Holy Spirit   teaches  us     all on a  personal level    , by just  ,''a very strong thought ''  that speaks up out of the blue   and rises up in you and takes   a hold    , when you are pondering about the Lord  , always so thankful to Him  for them times

   But it said ,    The unclean spirits   are not yet  washed in the blood of  the lamb ,  that is  when it took me straight to the scriptures of the foot washing  , and the Lord said  to those   with HIM  , You are every bit clean  because of the Word I have spoken to you  , except your feet    thus the need to show them how to wash one another's feet ..


I was  also impressed by the fact years ago when doing a ,''feet study''   what  the meaning can be   related to  and give it more substance   ,  faith is a substance that helps our  belief   in God SUBSTANCE

sub'-stans (rekhush; hupostasis):

Lit. that which stands under, is in the Bible used chiefly of material goods and possessions. In the Old Testament it is the translation of numerous Hebrew words, of which rekhush, "that which is gathered together," 

I would say , that is a great clue for the Sum of truth what is being gathered  together  as ONE  :dsunny:

  ONE faith One hope One  baptism etc..   as  gathered into    Christ ..   He whom is not with me is against me and scatters abroad ...    those kind of things

   but the feet   study  has some  great   and amazing     meanings   that take us ever  more   deeper in to the truth and makes us all   stronger  and more solid believers and not so easily  swayed     and  removes the confusion my mixing factors..

   Like rightly dividing the truth   , what is  spirit is of the spirit   and what is flesh is  of the flesh  .

Like separating the  wisdom from above   from   the wisdom from below  and to which   truth   it  would apply   

  It is true  that the wisdom for above is pure and peaceable and full of good fruits of the Holy Spirit  gifts to mankind  gathering into One Spirit    .  :2c:
the wisdom from below is   earthly sensual and  demonic    causing scattering & divisions  and the deeds/fruits  deny the Truth
  its proper place in our hearts ,,,

  James  3 ...14But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast in it or deny the truth. 15Such wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic.

16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every evil practice.... :sigh:


  I believe this could apply to our,   discerning   the spirits    by listening to one another ,  when washing one another's feet   /
concerning     Jesus teaching  is to sit at His feet   or to be vanquished   taken captive to  the WORD OF GOD /TRUTH  and Held in the Holy Spirit  of ONE GOD  ePH 4 Unity in the Body
...5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all

. 7Now to each one of us grace has been given according to the measure of the gift of Christ....

1 Cor 12  Spiritual Gifts
...9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines....   :HeartThrob:
   God has  shown some very amazing grace  in these times of troubles we can still see His glory  when we believe  solely  in Him  for every need  for everyone  born of the Spirit   and regenerated Spirit   causing to grow  in truth and grace  by   the  New Life  from the corruptible   vessel     though the washing of regeneration   is salvation   to each in their own order   given by GODS MERCY!    :HeartThrob:

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work,

2 to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarreling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy toward all people.

3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.

4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,


5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people.

[trettep]

So I have a lot more material on this subject but I will not be posting about in the forum. You will have to private message me in the forum if you want more data.  Or visit my site and contact me through there.  God willing - I'll post more on my website soon on this topic.

[marie glen]

Notice especially that the SUM of His word is truth. Not only is the WHOLE thing true, but also the SUM of it.

Amen, ML! I think this to be SO important.. Every where we go, we can hear the parceling of God's Word and fixations until it starts to resemble a Picasso painting! And then - to me - it becomes for the not yet believing, just a mess of babble.. Which it's not perceived by them already w/o it becoming like a Picasso.. I think part of the reason for this is the internalizing of God's Word perhaps a little too much. Sure there's interior and spiritual application of parables and events, etc.. in God's Word.. but there's the Total Picture to not lose sight of also. What is God creating? Of course a LOT of it is what He is accomplishing within each and every one of us (including all those not yet saved).. But there's a sum.. a total and totality also. Too much spiritual and interior (imho) can become sort of 'it's all about me'. (Aka, there's so much more at work than what is happening in me.) Of course this is not to under value the work of His Spirit within. That IS of course extremely important. Yet Jesus saying, "the Kingdom is within you" could just as well be "the Kingdom of God is in the midst of you" meaning the church body, or more specifically whn He said it, in the midst of the disciples -  which actually, was Jesus!.. Anyway, I know the Kingdom is not only within me.. :laughing7: ..nor every word only allegory and metaphor, but there's corners in His church which seem to think it is all metaphor - I can't figure out if they believe Jesus literally came, and lived and died and rose! [I could be a bit overly sensitive to this however. Imo! :laughing7: ]

Heis the sum of ALL HIS PARTS.   And His grand SUM mation IS ALL IN ALL.

Amen sister! (Sheila) :cloud9: :cloud9:

[MusicLover123]

OK, found the complementing verse to the Revelation verse, and that matches the verses I mentioned before:

2 Corinthians 13
1This third time do I come unto you; on the mouth of two witnesses or three shall every saying be established;

And...

2 Peter 1
20this first knowing, that no prophecy of the Writing doth come of private exposition, (Or, its own interpretation)

So, we have every VERSE not being its own interpretation, and these things are ESTABLISHED by 2 or 3 WITNESSES (min. Verse)

At least I understand now why some ask for 2 or 3 witnesses to support what you are saying...

Oh, and great points too guys!