How does it all work?

[Redneck Unie]

Hi all,

I firmly believe in the ultimate restoration of all. I guess I'm a little fuzzy on how all the machinery in salvation works. Could you help me get some clarity on this?

If I am a baptized and believing Christian, I am saved, right? I vo to Heaven, right?

But if I am not, I must pass through a period of purification. The sins that are not forgiven must be purged. How long does this last. Jesus says you will not get out till you pay the uttermost farthing. Is there any forgiveness after death or is it only purification by fire?

[jabcat]

If I am a baptized and believing Christian, I am saved, right? I vo to Heaven, right?

The 'overcomers' piece is an interesting one, for sure.  I'd like to see a study on that, its context (Revelation) etc...

Looking at a bit different aspects of it perhaps, yes, I believe according to the scriptures, if you've believed/called on His name, you've passed from death to life.  Become a child of God.  John 1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".  Being "born from above..old things passing away, all things becoming new".  His life placed within us.  Whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.  Romans 11:29

There is a first fruits, those called and given faith to believe in this age, sustained by the grace of Jesus, Who is the Author and Finisher of our faith.  then those not believing will in the next age come to see Jesus as Lord and Savior - whatever it takes to bring them to that condition - and there are considerably varying opinions on that.  One of the prevailing understandings is some duration of corrective discipline, but ultimately followed by "every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father". 

:dsunny:

[trettep]

Hi all,

I firmly believe in the ultimate restoration of all. I guess I'm a little fuzzy on how all the machinery in salvation works. Could you help me get some clarity on this?

If I am a baptized and believing Christian, I am saved, right? I vo to Heaven, right?

But if I am not, I must pass through a period of purification. The sins that are not forgiven must be purged. How long does this last. Jesus says you will not get out till you pay the uttermost farthing. Is there any forgiveness after death or is it only purification by fire?

To understand salvation, we must understand what we need to be saved from.  The fact is that we need to be saved from our sins.  The wages of sin is Death.  But where did this sin come from?  - It came from DISTRUST in God.  Therefore Faith (TRUST) in God is the way back. 

Let's realize that a death sentence has already been imposed upon us as members of the Body of Adam.  Because we are of his seed  we are under the curse.  One who is not under the curse would therefore have to come and show TRUST in God and redeem us from this death sentence.  - That happened in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior - Praise God!. 

Since Adam was given dominion this means his whole dominion is cursed. It all must perish.  Our Time here is to understand that and ask forgiveness and TRUST God through the Spirit of Christ Jesus.  But HOW is that Done?  It is done by putting on Christ.  It means everytime you sin - recognize it and ask for forgiveness and Mercy and keep trying to overcome those sins.  As long as you are on that path you will be saved.  That effort shows that you believe that God raised His Son up from the dead.  So emulate Christ Jesus and understand that as long as you are moving forward on that path, you are saved.  Repentance is to turn in the opposite direction.  As long as you going in the opposite direction  - towards righteousness and Mercy and away from sin and death then you will be saved.

There is a doctrine of the Nicolaitans you need to be aware of:

Rev 2:6  But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 

I learned more about that doctrine from the writings of some early "Church fathers" and recall that the doctrine meant that some were teaching that you could continue in sin and God's Mercy would save you.  We must understand that the promise of Mercy is not replacement for obedience and righteousness. Walk as Jesus walked.  If we are emulating Him there is no room for the practice of sin.

But don't let stumbling cause you alarm.  Get back up and confess your sins to God and ask forgiveness and continue to put on Christ.  He will forgive you.  He is well aware of the weakness of the flesh. 

Praise God.

[jabcat]

I'm not going to get into a big argument about it, as a) I don't enjoy it, b), it's not usually real fruitful, and c), it's not really what we do here.

However trettep, I hope you're not describing a works-based salvation, that puts the onus on the one running or willing.  "then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." 

I don't believe in continuing in sin so that grace may abound.  I do believe in looking to Jesus to sanctify, purify, and sustain me. His work, undeservedly, in me.  I also don't believe that Jesus keeps pulling the rug out from under us based on our own works or effort - one day a child of God, next day not.  Next day child of God, next day not again, on and on.  Unstable and shifting as the wind.   If anyone does put the onus on us to obtain salvation through our works  IMO, it diminishes the work of the cross and puts the burden on vessels of clay to do something only Christ could and can do.  (I know the James verse, works/faith, and believe it addresses the fruits of Christ's work in a believer/the outreaching effects/manifestations - not whether someone is saved by works instead of, or even along with, faith).

As far as salvation;  I believe when we are given faith to believe on Christ as Savior, His blood is applied and our spirit is saved - instantaneously.  Done deal. Child of God, not revoked.
     Then as we walk in obedience - and again, only though His Spirit (not by might, nor by power) His grace does discipline, convict, correct, and in doing so is the process of saving our soul (the essence of who we are);  growing in grace and knowledge, putting on Christ, renewing our minds, to become more like Him so our works aren't burned, so there is less loss of our soul  in the Day of the Lord.       Then finally, we will be saved, i.e., having put on immortality.  New glorified body.

So I see it as saved (spirit), being saved (soul/character/works), will be saved (body).  I believe Paul describes that process/order.

I was raised in, and reject the notion that Jesus saved me by His work on the cross, bestowing His finished work upon me, but then it's up to me to somehow find a way to maintain and continue to possess the very thing that was a free gift and unable to be earned by me in the first place.  IMO, a works-based salvation is condemnation.  Whereas, looking to Jesus for everything - even His allowing and assisting my surrender, obedience, and walking with Him - is the only thing that sits right with my spirit as I've sorted through it through the years.   :2c:, and that's a summary of my view.  Others are welcome to theirs, but in the words of Larry Norman

"I've searched all around the world to find a grain of truth
I opened the Mouth of Love and I found a wisdom tooth".   :dsunny:

[trettep]

I'm not going to get into a big argument about it, as a) I don't enjoy it, b), it's not usually real fruitful, and c), it's not really what we do here.

However trettep, I hope you're not describing a works-based salvation, that puts the onus on the one running or willing.  "then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy." 

I don't believe in continuing in sin so that grace may abound.  I do believe in looking to Jesus to sanctify, purify, and sustain me. His work, undeservedly, in me.  I also don't believe that Jesus keeps pulling the rug out from under us based on our own works or effort - one day a child of God, next day not.  Next day child of God, next day not again, on and on.  Unstable and shifting as the wind.   If anyone does put the onus on us to obtain salvation through our works  IMO, it diminishes the work of the cross and puts the burden on vessels of clay to do something only Christ could and can do.  (I know the James verse, works/faith, and believe it addresses the fruits of Christ's work in a believer).

As far as salvation;  I believe when we are given faith to believe on Christ as Savior, His blood is applied and our spirit is saved - instantaneously.  Done deal. Child of God, not revoked.
     Then as we walk in obedience - and again, only though His Spirit (not by might, nor by power) His grace does discipline, convict, correct, and in doing so is the process of saving our soul (the essence of who we are);  growing in grace and knowledge, putting on Christ, renewing our minds, to become more like Him so our works aren't burned, so there is less loss of our soul  in the Day of the Lord.       Then finally, we will be saved, i.e., having put on immortality.  New glorified body.

So I see it as saved (spirit), being saved (soul/character/works), will be saved (body).  I believe Paul describes that process/order.

I was raised in, and reject the notion that Jesus saved me by His work on the cross, bestowing His finished work upon me, but then it's up to me to somehow find a way to maintain and continue to possess the very thing that was a free gift and unable to be earned by me in the first place.  IMO, a works-based salvation is condemnation.  Whereas, looking to Jesus for everything - even His allowing and assisting my surrender, obedience, and walking with Him - is the only thing that sits right with my spirit as I've sorted through it through the years.   :2c:, and that's a summary of my view.  Others are welcome to theirs, but in the words of Larry Norman

"I've searched all around the world to find a grain of truth
I opened the Mouth of Love and I found a wisdom tooth".   :dsunny:

Jabcat, it is both Mercy and by works.

For if Christ is in you then good works you will produce.  But Christ in you is by the Mercy of God.

I always say there are some that believe they are saved BECAUSE of Jesus and others that believe they are saved BY Jesus.

There is a difference to note - there are our works and His works, which I believe you acknowledge. We are saved by His works working through us by putting down sin in our own flesh evidenced by His Spirit displaying unselfishness towards others through us.  In fact, by Him doing that through us, OUR works are being destroyed.

The real difference in this understanding of When we are saved is in how we understand "FAITH".  Some see Faith as 'believing' and I see Faith as 'trusting'.  Think about that difference for a moment. 

Now if Faith is just belief then surely one is not saved by simply belief in God.  Adam believed in God but Adam didn't TRUST God concerning the curse of the forbidden fruit.

As James said, even the devils believe.  Jas 2:19  Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 

So as James shows that TRUST is the evidence of works with belief.

Jas 2:20  But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 

So if our Faith is TRUST in God then we are saved and imputed righteousness but if His Good works don't evidence through us then our Faith was not of TRUST in Him and we are in our sins and outside of His Grace (Approval).

[jabcat]

IMO, yep.

[marie glen]

Hi all,

I firmly believe in the ultimate restoration of all. I guess I'm a little fuzzy on how all the machinery in salvation works. Could you help me get some clarity on this?

If I am a baptized and believing Christian, I am saved, right? I vo to Heaven, right?

But if I am not, I must pass through a period of purification. The sins that are not forgiven must be purged. How long does this last. Jesus says you will not get out till you pay the uttermost farthing. Is there any forgiveness after death or is it only purification by fire?

I figure if we "believe" we will "follow" Him. And I believe it is via His Spirit and God's Word(s) - the bread and the wine.. our daily bread and new wine - Jesus said "come, eat and drink" -- And how often do we need to eat and drink? This I believe keeps us firmly attached to the Head, which I believe is what the gnostics and branch of, Nicolaitans went so wrong. And these days, some let go of His Word and I believe become folly - opposite (imo) of logos, originally - I read in lexicon - known to mean logic (Truth).

I'm a big believer in applying logic to any doctrine, second only to His Word itself. Which is why I never believed in the Et (partial) gospel. But I still believe Et believers are brethren. (Though I think it can make some a bit 'obnoxious'.. As, by it, the image of God can become a bit skewed!)

Being a bit of a 'loner' christian, i always thought of the lake of fire as total death and abolishment, but didn't think any humans would go there - unless they were total hardcases, maybe hitler or somebody like. But since coming to Tentmaker, I've learned it in all likelihood is closer to being a "refiner's crucible". Leading to my believing even the satan&co will be saved!

I still kind of believe no humans in the lof.. but of course, that's if I think of it as a literal sort of thing.. rather than simply the flames of His purifying..! Which I believe it is, even to the point of thinking it will be no more stringent, or rough, for most folks who come to "belief" after death, which would be, imo, during what's called Judgment 'Day'. ...And I think i came across support of this, in that the Lord's first advent so (very) perfectly fulfilled the Spring Holy Days of Leviticus 23, so I can't help thinking, surely(?) His long second advent (of 3 peaks) will fulfill the (3) Fall Holy Days of Lev 23. And looking at the spacing of days - 10 days between Trumpets and Day of Atonement - and we know the millennium is 1000 years - then 5 days between Day of Atonement (DOA) and Tabernacles... And what does God say in Revelation 21? He will now "tabernacle" with mankind upon Earth made new.. (So if 10 days is a shadow of 1000 years/millennium, then 5 days is a shadow of? which suggests to me a very long day of Judgment / GWT, which imo, seems likely most waking up from their graves and then witnessing this 'day' (of intense review?) who's not going to "believe" and thus be "their names engraven in the book of life" (I wonder if there's a present tense in the Greek? being engraven..?)

And the ones in Rev 19 thrown alive into the lake of fire at Jesus return, i believe are institutions of man active at the time of his return..
God bless! There's a lot of very good reading here at Tentmaker! :Peace2:

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063 - 77 UR VERSES

http://tentmaker.org/forum/hellbusters-hallow/heaven-yes-hell-no/

[rosered]

15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day.


17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,



18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen.

For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.

Faith , hope and Love are what will always remain    though  every test of time ..   Faith in God , Hope in Christ and the LOVE OF GOD   for all His creation     :HeartThrob:

[Dandelion]

I would think, that when we are made pure, we are forgiven, because we are now pure, and understand what we have done wrong, and are now asking for forgiveness.

You can't have one without the other, I would think.

But, as a UR person, don't we believe that all of our sins have been forgiven when Christ died on the cross.....once and for all? 

We have always been forgiven, but some of us were not able to receive the forgiveness, yet.

When we are purified, we can receive the forgiveness, given on Calvary.

My  :2c:

D. 

[rosered]

 
  Gods plan , has everything to do with predestination= the divine foreordaining of all that will happen, especially with regard to the salvation of some and not others in this life   , All things are for Gods glory  in the end . 

No one on  this side of  '' death /sleep ''  in Adam ,as I call it ,   :2c:   are   knowing   ALL the  TRUTH as of yet .

  I believe being planted in evil [dust of the earth ] Adam =mankind born of  a corrupt and temporary nature .

That everyone experiences  in the here and now , clings to the nature they know best , I have always  kind of  compared it to

being in a womb , everything is being formed   within  us , but not yet known  fully  as 100%  , even  , everyone called out of the world    for a special purpose of   GOD only knew   limited    things  of God  .
Jesus Christ is the only one whom was given    fully the Spirit without measure ...

  Everyone else  Was    given a small portion of  measured   Spirit   before Christ   come , and never  proceeded past this knowing  God ,

  But  now that Jesus Christ come    in the flesh  ,   a body prepared    for Him   for the open display  of how  the [eternal ] Spirit  operates   in   everyone and was always   Spiritual  in nature  but was hidden   from the eyes of human nature  , that judges by sight  ,with the  '' carnal mind =death '' and by the spirit in a man that has not  joined to the Holy Spirit yet , but is still operating  by the spirit of the world which is error /sin  nature that   many are still slaves to and die in ther sins , Yet we know the Lamb of God is the one whom come to take away the sins   error /missing the mark of the whole world !!  the   TRUTH   will set them free  , the same way you have been set free   now  , and salvation  is of GOD,  not mankind  , we have to wait on God to complete His plan   totally .  Eph 2

7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast....

I have only read in scriptures    3  ages   that always apply to all   mankind / Adam   perpetually ,in a way that never ends or changes; But constantly  applies   till it is completed  in the WORD .
   1 ) Age is without law and without any law there is no sin /error  or no accountability  .

  2 )  The law of sin and death  , that  [many  examples of  ]  ekklēsía(from 1537 /ek, "out from and to", woman born under the law /husband   is still in bondage   as slaves   to sin and death  and experiencing   suffering in Christ as the world rejects the Truth  , Way and Life .    Called out of the world for a certain  purpose of God   such is   Israel  was and is   and will  be examples of   and so   is Babylon a major  example to witness , Remember how John the revelator    marvelled at the splendor  of Her set up in the earth    and   was   warned of this deception  in Revelation and not to fall for it ?  How utterly  deceiving it is !!     for warned by the Lord Jesus  not to be captivated to idolatry ! 

Severing God in name only  , but hearts were far from the  TRUTH .  The warning  to not touch the unclean thing [death]   so God will receive you !    the religious pride of   life  and broad path  that leads to destruction   and self righteous works   to be burned in the fire of Gods jealousy !   God is a consuming fire .   His glory and love He will not give to another ..
3 ]    Age of grace  , the  Truth made a way   to LIFE   , This narrow path is   following Jesus Christ where ever He goes   we are with Him and Him with us and our new head / authority and husband  and a part of His body , that the sons of God are being formed in and though and because of Gods Wisdom in the earth as it is in heaven .

We are told to wait till the sons of God be revealed ..


  Future Glory
(2 Corinthians 5:1-10)

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us.

19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God.

20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope

21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

 
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time.


23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

24For in this hope we were saved;


but hope that is seen is no hope at all.

Who hopes for what he can already see?

25  But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.   
  It is the Christ in you / this anointing in you   being the  HOPE OF GLORY TO GOD ,   the holy thing to be revealed as a  son of God   and children of the DAY     ,,,  The DAY    revelations  or making known   in the Spirit on the Lords Day as  John the revelator     was  told to leave as OPEN   and no longer sealed  but to be  seen by   the world  , just as the Cross of Jesus Christ was also an open show of  this that will apply to everyone  as death is the last enemy to be destroyed !

Col 2 13When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, 14having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross! 15And having disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

In the  flesh    only see the cross as weakness and faith is not  really faith  in Jesus Christ cross   the TRUTH  is hidden from their eyes  ,  but in the SPIRIT THE POWER OF GOD PREVAILS !!   I see this  same   application  applying to everyone born in Adam as dead , but made alive in Christ   each in their own order  !

  If the covenant of death has been abolished /cancelled /done away with   in the cross of Christ , why do so many still cling to the covenant of death  than ???

Isaiah 28:18-19. And your covenant with death shall be disannulled — Made void, or of none effect.

You shall be trodden down — Namely, by the overflowing scourge of lies , which you flattered yourselves with/PRIDE  should not come unto you. From the time that it goeth forth — Namely, from me into the land, it shall assuredly, and with the first ...

  We every knee will bow and tongue confess   Him  no one is   going to one up GOD !! But be humbled by His great    grace
       mercy  triumphs over   condemnation /judgement   on all !      :dsunny:   :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen.. I too believe all are saved, so to speak, but are still in 'chains' and 'darkness' (even believers, in one way or another, some wrinkle in doctrine or belief, little corners of darkness yet..? Until the "full light of day" at His return when we put on perfection and immortality..)

And I believe the event of Jesus on the cross, to be an image strong enough to (ultimately) pierce every heart and psyche! And that to "die in ones sins" simply means they will rise (initially) still in their sins.. but to say the condition is eternal, is to actually run with the verse! Much further than what the verse actually says. [Not uncommon with the translators! Who sprinkle 'forever' everywhere.. even in verses where there's no time word originally, at all! And sometimes leave time (via the word aion) out of a verse, where it actually is! Oy.]

    :Peace2: :girlheart:

[jabcat]

Amen.. I too believe all are saved, so to speak, but are still in 'chains' and 'darkness'

Hi marie.  I like your posts, you contribute much :)

I believe it is often the case that things are a puzzle to us, and semantics often get in our way.

I personally struggle with understanding all that Jesus' death and resurrection accomplished vs. WILL BE accomplished.  You know, "done", but not yet "done".  Sort of like Paul saying "I, yet not I".  Also, "is, was, will be".  I think it's hard sometimes to wrap our mind around those things, and again, semantics/terminology can be hard to understand/sort out.   That said, I believe Jesus "accomplished" all that needed accomplishing, yet much of it is still to be "done"...if that makes any sense  lol.  For instance, I don't believe all are "saved" yet.  I believe the way is made for that to occur (technically), now it's a matter of time (His timing) before it is "accomplished" (literally).  That's why I see some saved now (have been called and given faith to believe)  while others will be, again, in His timing - when every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  Then I believe they are saved - and not (literally) until then.

So..for clarification, how would address the following in light of what I quoted above?  There may be absolutely no differences in view, but again, a matter of how we say (and understand) things.  Thanks for your input :)

Acts 16:30   Then he brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

[Dandelion]

I was sort of thinking out loud in my last post, above.

When does the forgiveness actually take place? What do we need to do, or do we need to do anything, to be forgiven?

I would think if we ask for forgiveness, we are forgiven. But, do we even realize all that we need to be forgiven of?

God's grace, through faith, saves us. Are there layers that we need to walk through....are there different levels of awareness of this whole process....or is it as simple as trusting that Jesus' death on the cross was enough...down here, on earth?

I do not think we need to know all the answers, though. We need to have the faith of a little child, and Jesus will lead us along our road. One step, at a time....day by day....we walk with Him. And, the Light will get brighter and brighter.

D.

[jabcat]

Yep, glass darkly D.  Step-by-step.  Trust.   :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

Amen.. I too believe all are saved, so to speak, but are still in 'chains' and 'darkness'

Hi marie.  I like your posts, you contribute much :)

I believe it is often the case that things are a puzzle to us, and semantics often get in our way.

I personally struggle with understanding all that Jesus' death and resurrection accomplished vs. WILL BE accomplished.  You know, "done", but not yet "done".  Sort of like Paul saying "I, yet not I".  Also, "is, was, will be".  I think it's hard sometimes to wrap our mind around those things, and again, semantics/terminology can be hard to understand/sort out.   That said, I believe Jesus "accomplished" all that needed accomplishing, yet much of it is still to be "done"...if that makes any sense  lol.  For instance, I don't believe all are "saved" yet.  I believe the way is made for that to occur (technically), now it's a matter of time (His timing) before it is "accomplished" (literally).  That's why I see some saved now (have been called and given faith to believe)  while others will be, again, in His timing - when every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  Then I believe they are saved - and not (literally) until then.

So..for clarification, how would address the following in light of what I quoted above?  There may be absolutely no differences in view, but again, a matter of how we say (and understand) things.  Thanks for your input :)

Acts 16:30   Then he brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

:thumbsup: Now that I am reminded of those verses, I think you are completely right! And more accurate than all are saved now (meaning literally). I have a tendency to think as soon as someone knows about "Christ crucified" on their behalf that they will fall to their knees.. But I think that's rather idealistic and optimistic. And also, now that I think about it, that wouldn't be all are now saved either :doh: ( :laughing7: ).. they are not, according to that thinking, either, saved until they positively know about it.. Which too would mean unsaved. Thanks Jabcat! :gsmile:

[jabcat]

 :laugh: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:  TY marie

I do not think we need to know all the answers, though. We need to have the faith of a little child, and Jesus will lead us along our road. One step, at a time....day by day....we walk with Him

D.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWk8DRwDYDc

[Dandelion]

Love this song, jabcat!

I have a friend, who is a Christian singer. I sell his CDs.I am sure I've mentioned this, before. He used to sing this song, often. He hasn't done it in a while. Maybe I will ask him to revive it.

Thank you! Yes, we have to trust.

My favorite Bible quote, Proverbs 3:5 - 6:

5Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. 6In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight....

D.

[GodIsLove]

What if God forgives all ("father forgive them they know not what they do")—Jesus didn't say "forgive them only after they ask for forgiveness" ...maybe the asking for forgiveness and repenting is for us, not for God...

He loves us and forgives us because He understands where sin comes from, but unless we confess and repent, we are unaware that we even NEED forgiveness, so we don't understand fully his love and mercy?

The thing about all this is it's mysterious and I don't have the answers but it seems to be biblical to say "it is finished" while also acknowledging the procsss is still unfolding.  These verses and their verb tenses seem to show the cross was a single act that was complete, and is still rippling  out to all people:

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Hebrews 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Romans 5:10a For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Edited to add:
What if forgiveness and being "saved" are two different things?
We are already forgiven but being saved from sin is different—those who walk with Jesus now are saved in that they are starting the process of shedding the sinful nature in this life versus at a later time. The saved in this lifetime are learning to be like Jesus and to be one with God's will, while the rest are still in darkness.

[Patinak]

What if God forgives all ("father forgive them they know not what they do")—Jesus didn't say "forgive them only after they ask for forgiveness" ...maybe the asking for forgiveness and repenting is for us, not for God...

He loves us and forgives us because He understands where sin comes from, but unless we confess and repent, we are unaware that we even NEED forgiveness, so we don't understand fully his love and mercy?

The thing about all this is it's mysterious and I don't have the answers but it seems to be biblical to say "it is finished" while also acknowledging the procsss is still unfolding.  These verses and their verb tenses seem to show the cross was a single act that was complete, and is still rippling  out to all people:

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Hebrews 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Romans 5:10a For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Edited to add:
What if forgiveness and being "saved" are two different things?
We are already forgiven but being saved from sin is different—those who walk with Jesus now are saved in that they are starting the process of shedding the sinful nature in this life versus at a later time. The saved in this lifetime are learning to be like Jesus and to be one with God's will, while the rest are still in darkness.

A most excellent post!

[rosered]

 

   Lovely as can be GIL!!

   Spoken with   true clarity  :HeartThrob:

Having wrote a long post yesterday     :sigh:  I did not  answer   James /Jabcat and  Marie's  post

For me ,simple and short  and perfectly clear is the way to say it   BEST!

But most times there is not   any short  and  easy  answers .
  Jesus   whom is the Truth and everything   by the way ,   answered   most difficult  questions with questions   for them to consider ..

Challenging their thoughts   every time .

   For me,   being saved now , is what Jesus   teaching them  :2c:  To keep them for the evil to come upon them .
 
  We are   all  planted in corruption  , but like a true   and holy seed  planted by God Himself , it must rise up out of corruption

and can only live  by His    care      being fed and watered and given  Light   in order to grow   in truth and grace .

I feel our time to shine  in the fire and Light of   the Holy Spirit is now  ..  those that are chosen of God now are vessels  of mercy  in the world and   are Like Jesus   , not like the world .
  the world will hate you the same as it hated Jesus and sought to destroy  Him and Lazarus   the one Jesus  raised from the dead   as an example of what salvation is , and that is  under the law of sin and death and being taught of God Himself   though love and NOT force   as the past times because He is dwelling in the temple of their hearts now  already

  But what if those do not get that   spared from evil on this side of   salvation ?   

  Would God only save a few only to torment  everyone else forever ?    What kind of monster is this God most of humanity   is worshipping  than ?

Why was  Saul / Paul the lucky one   to be saved   after  persecuting  the Lord himself   by murderous  tyraids  on innocent  blood in total darkness under that law of sin and death ,   when Judas was   to be cast off forever ? 

Why was Pharaoh  chosen as a vessel of wrath   and hardened his heart against Israel    and not let them go  free , but when He would have, God hardened his heart   ?     
  He was  used as an example of  what good and evil  is  for learning what to do and not to do for us ,after all this time and to this very day   as GODS WORD IS perpetual  and many Pharaohs , kings of the earth are still  doing the exact  same  things 


never ending or changing.
"deep caves in perpetual darkness"
synonyms:   everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal; More
2.
occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted. 

  :2c:

May the grace and  truth of God  be known  to  us  all   more and more ..   :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

  The truth is some things are not meant to be saved  , but perish in the using

  Colss 2 Alive in Christ
...21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"?

22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. [works of mens hands set for the fire of Gods consuming jealousy ]


23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh....   

Isaiah 29:13
Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.  as mindless  robots  :sigh:

Matthew 15:9
They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.'"   [ held in captivity  though lies and murderous hearts ]

1 Corinthians 6:13
"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food," but God will destroy them both. The body is not intended for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.    :Pray:



Titus 1:14
and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of men who have rejected the truth.

2 Peter 2:12
These men are like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be captured and destroyed. They blaspheme in matters they do not understand, and like such creatures, they too will be destroyed.

   this is satan's  mark of the beast  full of pride  and arrogance and without any fear of the Lord  :sigh:

made without  the  fear  of God and  no wisdom of God  in him but the wisdom of the world in great error   Job  41 God's Power Shown in Creatures
...32"Behind him he makes a wake to shine; One would think the deep to be gray-haired.

33"Nothing on earth is like him, One made without fear. 34"He looks on everything that is high; He is king over all the sons of pride."...

Job 40:19
"He is the first of the ways of God; Let his maker bring near his sword.

  O destroyer  I will destroy you   Isaiah 33   all of it really   here is the main thing   to me  though  :2c: is extremely   important , This is the telling of our LORD JESUS CHRIST  COMING INTO THE WORLD  OF DARKNESS WITH HIS LIGHT   to me  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:   :2c:

The Judgment of God

1Woe to you, O destroyer,
            While you were not destroyed;
            And he who is treacherous, while others did not deal treacherously with him.

            As soon as you finish destroying, you will be destroyed;
            As soon as you cease to deal treacherously, others will deal treacherously with you.
      2O LORD, be gracious to us; we have waited for You.
            Be their strength every morning,
            Our salvation also in the time of distress.

      3At the sound of the tumult peoples flee;
            At the lifting up of Yourself nations disperse.

      4Your spoil is gathered as the caterpillar gathers;
            As locusts rushing about men rush about on it.

      5The LORD is exalted, for He dwells on high;
            He has filled Zion with justice and righteousness.

      6And He will be the stability of your times,
            A wealth of salvation, wisdom and knowledge;
            The fear of the LORD is his treasure.

      7Behold, their brave men cry in the streets,
            The ambassadors of peace weep bitterly.

      8The highways are desolate, the traveler has ceased,
            He has broken the covenant, he has despised the cities,
            He has no regard for man.

It is most helpful scripture  knowing that  OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST   is in full power  and made known openly  , there is no way we cannot know this TRUTH   by now  , no excuses  for lack of knowing   GOD IS GLORIOUS  as the light pierces though all the darkness   and veils  of hidden   things before   Jesus came  into the world   and comes again   to us by the Spirit of Life

doing the  holy works in us by faith in Him  as we rest  in hope  and expecting  miracles....

an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause. 2. such an effect or event manifesting or considered as a work of God.

  Sharing the gospel  by  raising the dead to Life in Christ 


Matt 10 7As you go, preach this message:

'The kingdom of heaven is near.'


8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, drive out demons.


Freely you have received;


freely give.

9 Do not carry any gold or silver or copper in your belts.   

   for the love of money is the root  cause of   much evil  doing ,  Matt 4    satan promised    Jesus the world  if He would just  bow down and worship him , But Jesus told satan    10"Away from me, Satan!" Jesus declared. "For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.'"...   by worshipping God in the Spirit of TRUTH     no lies can stumble us than   by overcoming the world and its  temporary glory as great pride or pleasure in.!!  :HeartThrob:

  1 Tim 6 ...9 Those who want to be rich, however,

fall into temptation and become ensnared by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction.


10For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. By craving it, some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.


11But you, O man of God, flee from these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness....

[marie glen]

What if God forgives all ("father forgive them they know not what they do")—Jesus didn't say "forgive them only after they ask for forgiveness" ...maybe the asking for forgiveness and repenting is for us, not for God...

What!? Someone else thinking this? :banana: I truly believe that! That Jesus' (very much suffering) of an execution, was that it had to be strong enough to reach every psyche/heart - even the hardest, coldest, as part of all this, i think, is allowing things to run their course, even the worst. And His crucifixion, not as required by God in order to be able to forgive. "His mercy endures forever." But in order for one to be able to forgive theirself.
He is Love..
   :cloud9:

He loves us and forgives us because He understands where sin comes from, but unless we confess and repent, we are unaware that we even NEED forgiveness, so we don't understand fully his love and mercy?

The thing about all this is it's mysterious and I don't have the answers but it seems to be biblical to say "it is finished" while also acknowledging the procsss is still unfolding.  These verses and their verb tenses seem to show the cross was a single act that was complete, and is still rippling  out to all people:

Beautiful words GodIsLove :HeartThrob:

2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Hebrews 10:12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.

Romans 5:10a For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son,

Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

Edited to add:
What if forgiveness and being "saved" are two different things?
We are already forgiven but being saved from sin is different—those who walk with Jesus now are saved in that they are starting the process of shedding the sinful nature in this life versus at a later time. The saved in this lifetime are learning to be like Jesus and to be one with God's will, while the rest are still in darkness.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :Chinscratch: Wow! I love that.. it makes a lot of sense to me!

[marie glen]

   Lovely as can be GIL!!

   Spoken with   true clarity  :HeartThrob:

occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted. 

  :2c:

May the grace and  truth of God  be known  to  us  all   more and more ..   :HeartThrob:

    :dsunny: :dsunny: :girlheart: That is an awesome post Rosie!! ..so excellent..

  O destroyer  I will destroy you   Isaiah 33   all of it really   here is the main thing   to me  though  :2c: is extremely   important , This is the telling of our LORD JESUS CHRIST  COMING INTO THE WORLD  OF DARKNESS WITH HIS LIGHT   to me  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:   :2c:

       :iagree: :iagree:

22These will all perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. [works of mens hands set for the fire of Gods consuming jealousy ]


23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.…   
Isaiah 29:13
Then the Lord said, "Because this people draw near with their words And honor Me with their lip service, But they remove their hearts far from Me, And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,mechanical or habitual repetition of something to be learned.  as mindless  robots  :sigh:

Matthew 15:9
They worship Me in vain; they teach as doctrine the precepts of men.'"

Titus 1:14
and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of men who have rejected the truth.

I wish I could remember where I read yesterday, in a commentary, someone summing this up - also very well. How they had the "keys to knowledge" but rejected truth and instead of soberly studying the truths of God's words and laws.. they fell away into their own thoughts, I think the commentator called it making their own rules and fabrications of imagination.. and also they fell away into believing "strange myths".

And I had to think, now what strange myths might those be? Namely, I'm thinking, those fiery 'hellish' flames of Et?! 

11But you, O man of God, flee from these things and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, perseverance, and gentleness.…

      :Peace2: :HeartThrob:

[CHB]

Amen.. I too believe all are saved, so to speak, but are still in 'chains' and 'darkness'

Hi marie.  I like your posts, you contribute much :)

I believe it is often the case that things are a puzzle to us, and semantics often get in our way.

I personally struggle with understanding all that Jesus' death and resurrection accomplished vs. WILL BE accomplished.  You know, "done", but not yet "done".  Sort of like Paul saying "I, yet not I".  Also, "is, was, will be".  I think it's hard sometimes to wrap our mind around those things, and again, semantics/terminology can be hard to understand/sort out.   That said, I believe Jesus "accomplished" all that needed accomplishing, yet much of it is still to be "done"...if that makes any sense  lol.  For instance, I don't believe all are "saved" yet.  I believe the way is made for that to occur (technically), now it's a matter of time (His timing) before it is "accomplished" (literally).  That's why I see some saved now (have been called and given faith to believe)  while others will be, again, in His timing - when every knee bows and every tongue confesses.  Then I believe they are saved - and not (literally) until then.

So..for clarification, how would address the following in light of what I quoted above?  There may be absolutely no differences in view, but again, a matter of how we say (and understand) things.  Thanks for your input :)

Acts 16:30   Then he brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...

I agree jabcat. If all are saved now what is the purpose of "every knee bowing and every tongue confessing"?   I do believe where it says in Rom. 4:17 that God called "those things which be not as though they were" could be applied here. God had a plan from the beginning like the crucifixion of Jesus. It says he was slain from the foundation of the world. It just didn't happen at the beginning it was destined for the future.

As far as overcoming, I believe Jesus overcame for us. Where it speaks of overcoming I believe that has been fulfilled.

CHB