logic as A pry bar

[marie glen]

I found this interesting -

from - http://answersanswers.com/God/Bible1-God.html

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)

'Word' is the Greek 'logos' meaning logic. Later Christians gave it a special supernatural meaning, but when John wrote it still had its normal Greek meaning. It was a technical term in philosophy, beginning with Heraclitus, circa 535-475 BC. Aristotle confirmed the meaning of logos in his 'on rhetoric'. We persuade people using 'logos' (logic), 'pathos' (emotion) and 'ethos' (our reputation). The modern word logic is derived from logos.

"Logos" is a principle of order and knowledge (see the Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy 2nd edition):

Logos: The Greek term for 'reason' for 'giving an account' (Plato). "The verb lego both to speak and to put together. Thus Plato's emphasis is on the living dialogue as the only context for the unveiling of logos. Socrates claims that the logos speaks through him in the Platonic dialogues. The Latin translation is ratio, and this had led to a more strict use of reason in the confines of mathematics, science and logic." (glossary of Greek philosophical terms by Nick Gier, professor of Philosophy, University of Idaho).
'With' is the Greek 'pros', as in the modern usage "pro -something", meaning 'to the advantage of'. So John 1:1 could be translated:

"In the beginning was logic,
and logic was with (on the side of, to the advantage of) God,
and logic was God."
So logic (in the Greek sense of the word) is God. The most learned of the early Christians and Jews seem to agree. For example, Philo of Alexandria wrote that "The imperfect have as their law the holy Logos [logic]" (see "The Sacrifice of Abel", 38)

God is love, light, (life itself, imo) logos - the 3 L's..
Jesus, Logos, pure logic!

I really think logic is a pry bar that lifts off the ET veil..

And is two-sided..
Thy Word is Truth -
[1]His expressed written Word(s) and also, [2]Thy Word/Logic is Truth.

truth, the 2 sided / double edged sword - Though I'm not thinking this 2 sided-ness (God's Word & Logos as Logic) is THE double edge.

[rosered]

  Thanks Marie ,

  I believe faith is where we all  believe without proof  , but the proof comes though faith in God .

  Sure  logic    or reasoning is a divided     SWORD / or Word ,     but the glory of man is worldly wisdom   that wars against the Spiritual wisdom of God   , this scriptures  kind of testifies of it .

   The glory of God  is   Spiritual wisdom   that puts the logic/reasoning  of mankind  to   the test and considered foolishness   to God   and the futility that comes to nothing .

The Holy Spirit is  the  true  teacher  and knows  everything of the heavens and earth and below  ,   to teach those born again  of Spirit how walk in it   and discern spirits and motives of the hearts  , starting with our own hearts    , by how  to Honor the Heavenly Father  and be Like  Jesus   Christ  , by conviction  , we must  learn   the difference between good and evil   and begin to hate evil  , Like God does   , and  choose the good ,  and learn to not call evil good and the good evil   , Jesus wanted those calling  Him evil for doing good works  , to examine the works   themselves    as proof    the Truth was in Him .
 
How was Jesus chastened but by the stripes of mankind ...  :sigh:  Something  He never deserved   to be treated so evil , HE suffered for us all

Isaiah 53 ...4Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him....


1Cor 3 Worldly Wisdom
18Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise.

19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written:

"He catches the wise in their craftiness."

20And again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."...
Spiritual Wisdom
6Among the mature, however, we speak a message of wisdom—but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.


7No, we speak of the mysterious and hidden wisdom of God, which He destined for our glory before time began.

8None of the rulers of this age understood it. For if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory....

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to strengthen you by my gospel and by the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery concealed for ages past,

1 Corinthians 2:1
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God.

Ephesians 3:10
His purpose was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,11  according to the eternal purpose that He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord....

Hebrews 1:2
But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.4By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead....

Logically  how can  Abel  still speak even though he is dead ? 
  By the   written word   ? 
  Or is it by faith  that  remains   by his works  of Gods approval ?

By this same faith we believe   and hope and Love   GOD   in the same  manner .
 
Examples that  prove  living works   that are still being built upon by those that can hear  by the Spirit  , Hear His  voice  and Live   as a testimony  in Christ .     and we know Abel is dead in the world  as is  Lazarus , David etc.   many that died in Christ remain  to this day   by the same   faith  , hope and Love in God    :2c:


  It just goes to show  us all that faith  with hope and Love  do  matter   most and are precious in Gods sight ,  that cannot die
but remain   in my opinion  and that none of us can prevail   without them  , nor them without us   included .

  It is a Living Word  and those  works   always prove  the Truth .       :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

Amen.. "the great crowd of witnesses".. when "nothing shall be hidden" How breath taking it shall be when "knowledge of teh LORD cvers the earth like waters cover the seas.." :banana: :dsunny:

[GodIsLove]

I think a lot of non Christians reject Christianity because of how illogical ET is...and those of us who found UR can agree with that.

But at the same time without God our logic can be flawed. So it's tricky.

On the other side, Christians are sometimes afraid to use their logical minds to see just how crazy ET is, because I think they think having faith includes having faith in ET, even if their rational mind or their heart reject ET.

I tend to think God has and will have mercy on both those who couldn't believe because of ET and those who believe in ET. I do think those who are still Christian and believe in ET are similar to Abraham, willing to kill his son for God despite how horrible and illogical it would have been to do so—they have a strong faith in God no matter what. I don't think I'd have that faith. Honestly if I heard someone tell me to kill my child the first thought I'd have is that can't be God, that must be Satan and/or my own carnal mind deceiving me.

And on the other side, I have friends who are atheist or agnostic...who have so much love for God's animals that they are vegetarian, or who have adopted children, or who have big hearts for refugees, victims of abuse, etc. Since I believe everything good comes from God, they must somehow have God working in them, no?

All people have some of it right and some of it wrong, and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out (the last shall be first, meek inherit the earth, all bound in disobedience, mercy on all, God will wipe away all tears, every knee shall bow, the lion will lie with the lamb).

[rosered]

 
I love it that you bring  up  these things ..
  I have considered for a long time now   that 70 years was the captivity of Israel in  Babylon .

  That is the actual  average life expectancy of a human   [Psalms 90 :10   70 years 80 by grace .. and we fly away
Like a bird / doves / spirits that has been set free from captivity .

I have found much comfort in searching the scriptures  and asking for the Lords help to understand His Word of Life  and try to live it  out  best  we  all can   and the fellowship with many here over the years ..

I am sure there are lots more  things to learn   still  ,after our mortal existence  ends .

  Says our lives are like   a vapor  / mist / morning fog  here  in this life . James   4

When I began to grasp  and think past this present  time  and how the scriptures tell us to   focus of the things above and the lovely and pure things  , just the idea of    none us  not having to ever  deal with evil ever again  in the presence of   GOD
Thrills me to   LOVE  God even more   than ever .
I cling to those promises  now .

[marie glen]

I think a lot of non Christians reject Christianity because of how illogical ET is...and those of us who found UR can agree with that.

But at the same time without God our logic can be flawed. So it's tricky.

On the other side, Christians are sometimes afraid to use their logical minds to see just how crazy ET is, because I think they think having faith includes having faith in ET, even if their rational mind or their heart reject ET.

I tend to think God has and will have mercy on both those who couldn't believe because of ET and those who believe in ET. I do think those who are still Christian and believe in ET are similar to Abraham, willing to kill his son for God despite how horrible and illogical it would have been to do so—they have a strong faith in God no matter what. I don't think I'd have that faith. Honestly if I heard someone tell me to kill my child the first thought I'd have is that can't be God, that must be Satan and/or my own carnal mind deceiving me.

And on the other side, I have friends who are atheist or agnostic...who have so much love for God's animals that they are vegetarian, or who have adopted children, or who have big hearts for refugees, victims of abuse, etc. Since I believe everything good comes from God, they must somehow have God working in them, no?

All people have some of it right and some of it wrong, and it will be interesting to see how it all plays out (the last shall be first, meek inherit the earth, all bound in disobedience, mercy on all, God will wipe away all tears, every knee shall bow, the lion will lie with the lamb).

I'm happy I blundered into this thread and read this.. Amen!

[JamesH]

If God is immutable(unchanging)and love logic must dictate that God would not let anyone roast alive in the LoF for good. Saying that He would do that would defy logic.

[Dandelion]

I, personally believe that 'reason' and faith do not go together. At least, not in the way that they are typically used. I don't think that one can know God using 'material' reason. But, we can use our intelligence, and carry it with us into a spiritual realm.

There are so many stories in the Bible where people had to look past reason of this world, to find the greater truth. They had to seek and settle on the 'really real', as the radical Father Andrew Greeley of the RC Church referred to God's ways.

But, UR is not about human reason. Not to me, at least. It is about knowing who God is and testing if being allowed or being sent to Hell fits into what He has revealed about Himself. It is about asking oneself who God is, hopefully after a life of prayer, faith, and scripture, but always about the Holy Spirit interceding in our lives, and showing us who God is and what His character is.

It is about knowing your Shepard and hearing His voice. It is about spirit and truth...In a way that is not of this world. Reason belongs in this world, but this is discerning God's truths, His ways, His voice. Perhaps it is a sort of use of logical sequential thinking, but done in the spiritual realm.

John 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews,
2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?'
10 Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!
11 `Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;
12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?
13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;
20 for every one who is doing wicked things hateth the light, and doth not come unto the light, that his works may not be detected;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.'

D.