Romans 11

[MrsOzera]

This week, I've been incredibly interested in the passage in Romans 11 which sort of, kind of all implies that everyone will be saved. But, I have a couple of questions from you guys's UR perspective :)

So the passage I'm referring to is v.v. 22 to 32

" 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:

"The deliverer will come from Zion;
    he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
    when I take away their sins."

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

1. It says that "until the full number of Gentiles has come in". Do we assume this is ALL Gentiles? Does this mean that all non-Jews will be saved before the Jews?

2. It does say that all of Israel will be saved. So personally, I do believe I can be confident in believing that all of the Jews will come to salvation. Especially considering the fact that this salvation relates to the hardening and unbelief. But could this verse, if taken literally, not maybe mean that ONLY Israel will be the one nation of which all people will be saved? As someone who personally almost fully believes in UR, I love v.v. 32 because it shows that even people who are in unbelief and have hard hearts will still be shown mercy. But does this verse not only refer to Jews? How can we assume that any Gentiles which have hard hearts will also be brought over to mercy? Doesn't verse 32 only really talk about ethnic Israel, who are the descendants of Abraham?

3. What exactly does the breaking off and grafting in symbolize from the UR perspective. I understand that the Jews which were before part of the tree had special revelations of God, had the prophets, were chosen to be God's people and got the Law. But wouldn't that imply (with that analogy) that this means that the Gentiles now are the special nation of God and that God favors them now (because the Jews have been "broken off" because of their unbelief and the Gentiles "grafted in" because God wants them to experience salvation now)? I can't really see this as true because it seems to me that God's plan was always to have the entire world part of His people and that He impartially sees all nations the same. It seems kind of hard for me to swallow (with the personal revelation of a loving, unbiased God I have gotten by the Spirit over the past years) that the Jews were the only ones who were promised a loving relationship with God by faith and that we Gentiles are only allowed into this relationship because of Abraham and that technically, the Jews will forever remain God's "special people". Again, I do understand that God chose the Jews for His special purpose of having the Law come forth, to use them in His plan to fulfill His purpose, but I've always understood this special covenant to be for this reason only, and not because God actually does favor them. I believe God loves ALL nations and that He always also loved the Gentiles just as much, and that His plan was always to have everyone part of His family.

[rosered]

  I believe you have a wonderful  concept of it    sis,
  and agree none will advance  or proceed  above the other   .
God is fair and  no respecter of persons     
     Explains  how it happens      the valley of dry bones  and  the great supper of God Rev 19   &  Ezekiel  39   kind of parallel  and line up with each other .
 

[marie glen]

I agree Mrs O! And Rose!

"And all Israel will be saved" ...Paul, being a part of Israel said he was concerned about, and was comforted about his nation. And the statement that "all Israel will be saved" to me, is another proof (aka, strongly implies) UR. Because if so many of Israel will pass away in unbelief, yet! "All Israel will be saved!" Then why can't others who die in unbelief also be saved?

And so all will be saved.. imo, is strongly implied.

I think you are right about what it means to be grafted into Israel too.. Once someone believes, they are grafted into (what is called) Israel. And Paul wrote how in Jesus there is no longer male or female, Jew or Greek, but all are one in Christ Jesus.. And wrote how it is one body.. and one building/temple of God being built... and how it's one Spirit we share.

And I think this is another case of what I think of as telescoping.. like prophecies of Jesus so often were blended with prophecy which was about His first advent and prophecy which is about His second advent and return. All blended as though one. And how this occurs with bible prophecy, with the prophecies usually (if not always?) having a more or less 'immediate' fulfillment and a 'last' days (eschatology) fulfillment. So too with the verse "all Israel will be saved" and the prophecies about the gentiles/nations believing, how where it was said they are not His, it will be said they are.. I figure that telescopes into it being said (ultimately) concerning believers and non-believers.. That by end of Judgment 'Day' (imo) it will be said those who were said to be not His, behold now they are His.. (just like it was said concerning Israel and gentiles).

I also have always thought Israel is a microcosm of humanity.. as with Israel so with humanity.. Like Israel, "all we like sheep have gone astray".. "He hid His face for a moment.." (woe & calamity, even ruin-but not 'forever') ..And He gathers them back to Himself and to the promised land..

the valley of dry bones  and  the great supper of God Rev 19   &  Ezekiel  39   kind of parallel  and line up with each other .

    :Chinscratch: I've been pondering along those lines lately too.. was a little disappointed in it to read in the chapter (Ez.39) that "these bones are Israel" - because I'd been thinking.. "valley" - Ezekiel was seeing a vision that was in a valley.. and I'd been reading and thinking about the verse in Isaiah 66(?) that says (about armageddon) that all nations would see the corpses of those who opposed God (which I figure is a graphic statement that how all things crash and fail when w/o God, will be a universal lesson that all in heaven and earth will never, ever forget (this lesson of good and evil / life and death having been deeply engraven upon every heart, mind and psyche).

So I thought :Chinscratch: "valley"... could it be that same valley? As we know Armageddon is prophesied to occur in that notorious valley of Hinnom..

So thanks! Now I will be thinking about it in light of Rev 19... very interesting.. as I haven't given up on the thought entirely yet..
   :smile: