I have lost assurance of my salvation | Eternal security

[MrsOzera]

Hey everyone :) I didn't really know where to post this message so I hope it's ok I put it here.

I have been extremely blessed to learn more about UR as I browse through countless articles and forums and sites and learn a lot about it. However, there is something that has been kind of bothering me lately and that is the way that a lot of Universalists seem to blur the lines between a saved believer and an unsaved unbeliever. And also, a lot believe you can fall back and be in the same place as an unbeliever in the eyes of God.

That is not to say that I think we should have an "us vs. them" mentality, not at all! In fact, I think most of the ways that a lot of fundamentalists see unbelievers as disgusting (e.g. "oh look, they'll burn in hell, yay!"). But I also do believe that there is something about coming to faith that is more than just "seeing what was already there". I definitely don't believe God is angry at unbelievers or hates them or hasn't forgiven them, but I do believe the passages that say "the wrath of God remains on them" and that when one believes one has "passed over from judgment into life". I don't believe judgments are ever eternal hell (God forbid!) but I also think that they are something that a saved believer is blessed to not have to go through.

What has also been slightly discouraging is the countless articles by Universalists that speak against the eternal security as a believer and seem to indicate that they believe even believers will go to hell (temporarily) to suffer the consequences of their sins. Again, I'm not saying that I believe God sends unbelievers to hell to "make them pay" but rather I believe He uses any means possible (which are ALWAYS loving) to bring them to a point of repentance and faith. I've always seen faith as being the ONLY thing God requires of us because once we have faith, and get the H.S. then we are in the process of being changed by God Himself. I believe faith is resting on God's works and is kind of the "end stage" of where He wants us, even if our journey in that stage is endless (ever progressing, ever maturing).

I honestly just feel so discouraged right now. I don't feel secure in my salvation at all. Maybe it's because I haven't embraced UR 100% yet (I'm about 99% there) or something else, but I honestly just am terribly afraid of losing my salvation, whether it's by sinning unrepenantly (which I know I probably do), losing faith in some way or form. I've always found such encouragement from the Free Grace teachers who teach that losing salvation/justification is impossible and that sin, while having consequences, will never result in a believer being treated as an unbeliever before God. A couple of months ago, as I just got into exploring UR, I was a Free Grace believer, and I felt such a peace in my heart, while still being careful about not sinning. I feel such an unrest within me, I can't even really explain it. But the issue is, when I go back to read the Free Grace articles, I can't really take them to heart anymore because I know that they all believe in an eternal hell for unbelievers.

Is there any way that I can feel assured of my salvation, knowing that I truly have crossed over somewhere where there is no going back? While also knowing that God does not hate unbelievers and will do everything possible to win them over? Can I believe in UR whilst also believing that I won't ever lose my justification/security before God and that I know that whatever happens (whatever crap I do (sin)) I won't be treated as God would treat an unbeliever?

I hope that what I'm saying makes sense...sorry for the confusing message....prayers are very welcome.

- A very sad Leandra :dontknow:

[rosered]

  Hi sis Leandra

  Salvation is if God   , we can we can  count on His faithfulness  ,  we trust Him 100%   to do the living works

  GOD is never a failure   , nor  the faithful witness  Jesus  Christ ever  deny Himself  , even if we do fail  in our faith  [ Col1]  He is everything that exist  !!

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.  He is  the word of God made flesh  and can never return to God void ./empty ..

prayers    sis  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

.....that's why salvation has to be on the foundation stone "Christ crucified"the Lamb who takes away all the sin of the world".we can boldly go unto God the Father

andknowHe is not counting our tresspasses against us.His heart is toward reconciliation,forgiveness healing restoring.asPaul said..'for I am convinced that

   NOTHING CAN SEPERATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD THAT WAS SHOWN US THROUGH JESUS CHRIST...".ROCK"


NOTHING!   NOTHING! NOTHING! build all else in faith on these two rocks.  when you get 'wobbly"..go back to these two.....sometimes we  get'blown about

by  every wind of teaching"....  stand on what God and Jesus did do..not on what we/you do   or do not do.Bless you and may love joy and peace inthe holy spiri tbe yours

                                                                                                      :HeartThrob:
                                                           

[marie glen]

P.S. - amen sisters! :girlheart:

("Leandra" - what a pretty name!)
   I read a verse today that I hadn't really noticed so much before, but it really blessed me, it was in Acts 15, that first council (and the only one I pay attention to as far as 100%)

The Jerusalem Council
6 Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: "Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

At conversion, my heart was purified! Our faith purifies our heart.

So.. "faith" - the question then is "do we have faith?" in Jesus as the son of God.. 1st advent, died and rose again.. It's not our now being perfect and never ever slipping up in any way - though Jesus in us keeps us from living in sin, as the saying goes.. As an immoral habitual way of life that is.

A few verses further along in the chapter -

15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:

16 'After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
17 So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.'

Why the quoting of these verses here?

I have to think, because Jesus IS the Tabernacle (where God meets with us).

So.. another test - do we know Jesus? Because we surely should go on from conversion, as in the verses above, at conversion,  their/our "hearts were purified by their faith" and from there we learn to know Jesus.

The enemies will always try to convince us otherwise. But the more grounded we are in His Word, especially the slim volume of the New Testament, the less their dark, smoky, depressing thoughts aimed and projected to us will affect us.

"Whatsoever things are of good report, think on these things" - Is a thought negative? "Resist the enemy and flees from us".

I have found over almost 40 years of being a believer, and chose to study on my own.. I mean all groups have something 'wrong' and this is what I've discovered over the years. So how can I discern what's true from what isn't? By knowing His Word(s). I made my own reading schedule and read the gospels blended as to order of events, and the letters in the order believed written.. This helps a lot to see the overall view.. I also read Acts (and most years(?) Revelation) over the course of the year (and psalms) - https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html if interested scroll down to - 2nd bible reading schedule [Enter The Story Reading Schedules]

Yes, I have found even in the ranks of the Christian Universalist groups, there is 'all manner of beliefs'.. Some disillusioned with God's Word, because of the very few mistranslations (as in the matter of 'hell'/the grave!) And now without God's Word they have no anchor.. they have their own thoughts and other human thoughts - we can go anywhere for that.. I'm seldom interested. I've been accused of worshiping God's word. But I know what my bible says about Hos Word and the value and place it has in our faith life. I think there's even a verse which says "those who dream a dream or have a vision, what is that compared to God's word?" That's paraphrased... not too accurate? Maybe I can find it by googling "verse..."

Jeremiah 23:28 Amplified Bible (AMP)
28 The prophet who has a dream may tell his dream; but he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat [for nourishment]?" says the Lord.

Contemporary English Version (CEV)
28 Their dreams and my truth are as different as straw and wheat...

I'm also sorry to say that I've seen coversations between CU and ET believers where the ET believer was able to say UR believer was only talking gibberish.. and sadly they were right! You see they threw out the baby (God's Word) with the bath water (the mistranslations, few as they are)! ET will never hear the UR/CU message if the Word of God has been abandoned or thrown out..

Of course in other circles ppl leave God's Word because they are bored. ( :faint: ) All I can say is they obviously can't read it.. Or they're KJV only? Which ye olde englishe is a bit hard to follow, lol. Though usually those folks are pretty devoted.. Though sometimes rowdy?

I really think unless we turn our backs on the Lord and walk away from Him and believing, we can be assured of our salvation. I mean I'd really start to worry though if I wasn't reading His Word and seeking Him.. Even then though, just because it's easy to lead ourselves astray if we let go of the head.. and He is the "Logos". Let go of the head and my head gets weird! But if I am seeking Him, loving Him, learning of Him, I think all is well.. (Though we do have our more or less 'desert' times?)

But it's hard to shake loose the fear.. "Perfect love casts out fear" but it's been taught so long that it all depends on us. It's hard to break out of that..

"Beneath (us) are the everlasting arms" .."Behold, I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefor with loving kindness have I drawn you." Jeremiah 31:3 .."I will draw all to me" Jesus said, John 12:32.

  God bless you dear! :Pray: He LOVES you!

P.S. - Also, I think we fear because we fear the afterlife.. It's been put forth as a big threat for so long.. and mysterious.. smoky.. gauzy.. But I don't think it will be like that at all. Sure, the folks who rise not yet saved, but "still in their sins" (imperfection) many may well weep.. some hard cases, may gnash their teeth.. and I'm sure some may run screaming out into the outer darkness. But! I think that has also occurred now during this life time. I don't (personally) buy all this doom and gloom, God's gonna get them idea.. any more than that was / is His attitude toward us. I think most conversions are rather gentle.. Say what they will, I think He can be a very delicate and gentle surgeon.

When it comes to "God's wrath" - it's not that I don't believe in it, because I do. (I'm ever so grateful I'm not a Hitler.. but even then isn't a lot of judgment, actually self torment?

I think mostly that condemnation, judgment, even punishment, is simply a built in law of life and nature to reap what we sow. That His 'wrath' (greek - passion toward) is the consequences of one's own doings; and is earthly. The afterlife beign a whole other thing! That He is - now, and then, the lake of fire - "our God is a consuming fire" - purity consumes impurity. But that's Good news! A universe, or world, of corruption, decay, is in no way good. That it cannot endure, means paradise (perfection, as He is perfect) is unbreakable. (Especially once His Truth is written upon every heart and mind, which I believe is what is going on.. (is being done, accomplished).

"God is love" ..but it's hard for us to learn to really and truly trust Him. {There! That's what I really wanted to say! lol - which reminds me, a brother here (WW) says the lake of fire, LOF should be lol for lake of Life.. I also like lake of love.. (his light convicts/convinces.. truth can sting, but truth sets free.. I'm convinced He is gentle.. His warm love embraces, convincing all of utter worth of love, purity, goodness..

[Ross]

I honestly just feel so discouraged right now. I don't feel secure in my salvation at all.

Grace is completely unmerited/unearned favour. We ARE saved by grace. NOT by works, so that no one can boast.
I used to speculate about whether I believed enough to be saved. Had I confessed every single sin? Were there generational sins from somewhere that I didn't know?
I now believe that confessing my sins is my own recognition of being a sinner, not itemising them all.
Upon that confession I only feel release because I know that Christ paid in full- and that was before I was even born.
He loves us like a father- that is unconditional for our position, but we are corrected for our behaviour.
Please be encouraged that His love is immeasurable and, like Sheila states, 'NOTHING" can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord- that is a comprehensive list [Romans 8;38,39]

[darryl]

Hey everyone :) I didn't really know where to post this message so I hope it's ok I put it here.

. I definitely don't believe God is angry at unbelievers or hates them or hasn't forgiven them, but I do believe the passages that say "the wrath of God remains on them" and that when one believes one has "passed over from judgment into life". I don't believe judgments are ever eternal hell (God forbid!) but I also think that they are something that a saved believer is blessed to not have to go through.

the word 'wrath' used to bother me until I researched the actual Greek word it came from...'wrath' is a English word with terrible connotations of fury, gr8 anger and hostility...the actual Greek word, 'orge' does not mean 'fury' against the sinner at all....as explained by Biblehub, "Orgē comes from the verb oragō meaning, 'to teem, to swell'; and thus implies that it is not a sudden outburst, but rather (referring to God's) fixed, controlled, passionate feeling against sin . . . a settled indignation (so Hendriksen)" (D. E. Hiebert, at 1 Thes 1:10).]
it doesnt mean God despises the sinner but does seem to mean God is opposed to the sin...anyway, hope this helps a bit...God bless !  :dsunny:

[jugghead]

In what I have studied in the NT about "wrath" it is properly defined as "desire" (G3709), even though His children are disobedient His "desire" remains upon them

it is taken from the word "oregomai" meaning to stretch oneself, reach out after (long for)

IMO it is not understanding God as "being angry" but "being very passionate" towards His children

It wasn't until God showed me this in my own earthly father ..... when I was working with my dad, learning the trade of being a drywall taper, when I didn't do the job right, my dad got angry with me, wanting me to get it right, but it wasn't until God showed me what was hidden in my father that I mistook as anger and that was .... "his passion for perfection" .... my dad had a passion for perfection in his work and just like our heavenly Father, He too has a passion for perfection in His work (His workmanship/us) but with a lot more patience

Children in their young understanding will easily mistake "passion" for "anger" ..... but when we mature and put away those childish things ..... we come to understand what was hidden and now have more respect and honor for our father/Father

Forgive us Father for we knew not what we did when we mistook your "passion" for "anger"

My  :2c:

[rosered]

In what I have studied in the NT about "wrath" it is properly defined as "desire" (G3709), even though His children are disobedient His "desire" remains upon them

it is taken from the word "oregomai" meaning to stretch oneself, reach out after (long for)

IMO it is not understanding God as "being angry" but "being very passionate" towards His children

It wasn't until God showed me this in my own earthly father ..... when I was working with my dad, learning the trade of being a drywall taper, when I didn't do the job right, my dad got angry with me, wanting me to get it right, but it wasn't until God showed me what was hidden in my father that I mistook as anger and that was .... "his passion for perfection" .... my dad had a passion for perfection in his work and just like our heavenly Father, He too has a passion for perfection in His work (His workmanship/us) but with a lot more patience

Children in their young understanding will easily mistake "passion" for "anger" ..... but when we mature and put away those childish things ..... we come to understand what was hidden and now have more respect and honor for our father/Father

Forgive us Father for we knew not what we did when we mistook your "passion" for "anger"

My  :2c:

  Wow , that is a beautiful way to express  a Fathers love     for His children .
  I am always amazed   at Gods mercy and ability to   show us the way of truth and life   by His Spirit of light /anointing  such perfect timing !!!   
Making  us know He is surly with us all!    Trust in the Lord will all your heart   ! that is faith in God and lean  not on your own understanding  , because this is when worry and doubts creep in  and steal  our joy in the Lord   and His amazing grace that covers  what we cannot do of ourselves  being weak  , the Holy Sprint intercedes on our behalf   covering us in our Fathers love

You do not stop loving your children because they are  not like you yet , but as you teach them and set the examples for them  and help them  work with them and reason together  and learn along the way  by experiences  and   if they fail , you try again  7 times you may stumble but God is able  to make you stand ,  wait  as see if  they will be just like you and honor  your Holy name  in the earth as it is in Heaven as already  being done  ,
  Light  is a powerful  covering  over the darkness  , Just as Love is a powerful covering over error ...  :dsunny:

  Trust in your  PERFECT  heavenly FATHER   he has got this  down pat  , no worries , faith in Him will  heal our lack . :HeartThrob:

[Ross]

  Trust in the Lord will all your heart   ! that is faith in God and lean  not on your own understanding 

That is why Christ told Peter not to look at the water but at Him. Do not be distracted by the things around us.

You do not stop loving your children because they are  not like you yet , but as you teach them and set the examples for them  and help them  work with them and reason together  and learn along the way  by experiences  and   if they fail , you try again  7 times you may stumble but God is able  to make you stand ,
Trust in your  PERFECT  heavenly FATHER   he has got this  down pat  , no worries , faith in Him will  heal our lack . :HeartThrob:

Exactly why Christ said we are to come to our Father as His children- no fear, no rejection, with arms open wide and inexplicable joy.

[Dandelion]

I think our best assurance is knowing who God is, not who we are.

When we realize the enormity of His love for us, and how very much He calls us and wants us to come to Him, I think we then can live our lives, the best we can, and know that He will see our sincerity and our faithfulness, despite our failings and misunderstanding. Keep praying; keep listening for His voice; keep believing; keep trusting in Him, not in people, money, power, prestige, etc.; keep reading the Bible; keep living in the Spirit and not the flesh; ask for guidance; don't let guilt trip you, and have fellowship with others who are in love with God. Love God; Love your neighbor. Never give up.

I don't think there is much more to do. Actually, I believe we can not do good without God.

He will do what needs to be done, on our behalf. The joy of the Lord is our strength.

D.

[WhiteWings]

I watched 'The Shack' last weekend. One of the best scenes was about hell.
The main character was in with God's spirit of wisdom for a lesson about forgiveness and hell.
The man was forced to sit in God's judgement seat.
The spirit of wisdom showed his daughter and son. Listed a few flaws of both of them.
"Now you must judge them and tell me which one goes to hell." the spirit said.
The man refused. But was told he must judge them. Refused etc etc.
After a while the spirit of wisdom said "Then why you expect me to do the same?"

[marie glen]

In what I have studied in the NT about "wrath" it is properly defined as "desire" (G3709), even though His children are disobedient His "desire" remains upon them

it is taken from the word "oregomai" meaning to stretch oneself, reach out after (long for)

IMO it is not understanding God as "being angry" but "being very passionate" towards His children

It wasn't until God showed me this in my own earthly father ..... when I was working with my dad, learning the trade of being a drywall taper, when I didn't do the job right, my dad got angry with me, wanting me to get it right, but it wasn't until God showed me what was hidden in my father that I mistook as anger and that was .... "his passion for perfection" .... my dad had a passion for perfection in his work and just like our heavenly Father, He too has a passion for perfection in His work (His workmanship/us) but with a lot more patience

Children in their young understanding will easily mistake "passion" for "anger" ..... but when we mature and put away those childish things ..... we come to understand what was hidden and now have more respect and honor for our father/Father

Forgive us Father for we knew not what we did when we mistook your "passion" for "anger"

My  :2c:

    :cloud9: :cloud9:

[marie glen]

I think our best assurance is knowing who God is, not who we are.

When we realize the enormity of His love for us, and how very much He calls us and wants us to come to Him, I think we then can live our lives, the best we can, and know that He will see our sincerity and our faithfulness, despite our failings and misunderstanding. Keep praying; keep listening for His voice; keep believing; keep trusting in Him, not in people, money, power, prestige, etc.; keep reading the Bible; keep living in the Spirit and not the flesh; ask for guidance; don't let guilt trip you, and have fellowship with others who are in love with God. Love God; Love your neighbor. Never give up.

I don't think there is much more to do. Actually, I believe we can not do good without God.

He will do what needs to be done, on our behalf. The joy of the Lord is our strength.

D.

   :cloud9: Amen!


And Amen Ross and Rose! And to the scene in "the shack" :thumbsup:

What a great thread to read! Actually is a vast difference between "the law" which purpose is to show good from not good(?) and the true covenant and contract with God which is He is Father.

"But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man (Adam) how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."
           - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/5-15.htm

"Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men."
            - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/romans/5-18.htm

A valuable thing I was told by a good friend, was we can firmly hold to believing and knowing our assurance of our salvation and safety, even during times, any time, we don't feel that way.. That helped me a great deal, to fully realize the truth doesn't depend on how I feel. The joy of my salvation is just as true and real, even if I feel like (my) world is crashing around me..
    :dsunny: :HeartThrob: