Gary would like clear, focused, inspired responses to this argument

[rosered]

  Good point  ,   two things I thought of    reading your response 
  1  not worthy yet ..
  or 2  learn though the experiences  100  times if needed   
Both makes sense to me ..
  Those that are worthy

  Luke  20 34Jesus answered, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage.

35But those who are considered worthy to share in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage.


36In fact, they can no longer die, because they are like the angels.


And since they are sons of the resurrection, they are sons of God....

[CHB]

I believe this also White Wings. one thing Jesus said was "no one can come to me except the Father draw/drag him".
So maybe a person has to be dragged before they can understand or believe?

CHB 

[rosered]

I believe this also White Wings. one thing Jesus said was "no one can come to me except the Father draw/drag him".
So maybe a person has to be dragged before they can understand or believe?

CHB

  Well  here is another good one  too   Romans 9
God's Sovereign Choice


...17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.


19One of you will say to me, "Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?"...

  20 But who are you, a mere man, to talk back to God? Will what is formed say to the one who formed it, "Why did you make me like this?"

[darryl]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...I'm starting to feel maybe they 'choose' to hold onto it cos it makes them feel 'special' they arent going there, or something...hmmmm.

The question is: Did you really see it because of your friend or did God allow you to see it?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

It's not exactly the same as what you wrote. Or perhaps it's in a certain way.
Perhaps Peter was told many times Jesus was the Christ but he simply didn't process that info willingly or unwillingly. Until God lifted the veil.
Maybe God never told Peter directly Jesus was the Christ. But God allowed Peter finally 'get it' after failing to 'get it' 100 times before.

Veiled, bound to disobedience, parables because they aren't supposed to know.

i always struggled with 'eternal hell' even though I (kinda) believed it, so that was easy to give up....the salvation for all bit was harder..i think God allowed me to see that

[joeteekay]

This kind of ET reasoning sadness me greatly. It hurts to read these commentaries which deny God's love, power and purpose. As WW said earlier, there is no point in responding to such people. Their mind is closed to the truth of God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures. People like that, including Weiss, must have some level of vindictive passion thinking they can save people with their version of hell or lake of fire. Sadly, they are blind.

Mat_15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[WhiteWings]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...I'm starting to feel maybe they 'choose' to hold onto it cos it makes them feel 'special' they arent going there, or something...hmmmm.

The question is: Did you really see it because of your friend or did God allow you to see it?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

It's not exactly the same as what you wrote. Or perhaps it's in a certain way.
Perhaps Peter was told many times Jesus was the Christ but he simply didn't process that info willingly or unwillingly. Until God lifted the veil.
Maybe God never told Peter directly Jesus was the Christ. But God allowed Peter finally 'get it' after failing to 'get it' 100 times before.

Veiled, bound to disobedience, parables because they aren't supposed to know.

i always struggled with 'eternal hell' even though I (kinda) believed it, so that was easy to give up....the salvation for all bit was harder..i think God allowed me to see that

So you believed in annihilation?
For me it was a bit like this:
Hell = Blasphemy
Annihilation = Justice
UR = Grace

[darryl]

There is no use responding to such people.
They simply are 100% convinced Jesus is a failure and Father's will is overruled by His creation.
I could give links to several sites/articles that in-depth explain what the Lake of Fire is. How long it takes. Etc

But why bother?
There is plenty of UR material on the main TM site and YouTube.
That person is aware of the many UR articles. Was unable to understand them or simply didn't read them.
So why would I or anyone else answer the above rant? The person is unable to grasp what will be presented and/or unable/unwilling to actually discus something.

it must be a form of blindness.....years ago, as soon as a friend of mine explained UR to me and showed me the Biblical evidence, my long held belief in eternal hell crumbled...its extraordinary to me how others I share UR with obstinately continue to hold onto and cling to their 'eternall hell' belief...I'm starting to feel maybe they 'choose' to hold onto it cos it makes them feel 'special' they arent going there, or something...hmmmm.

The question is: Did you really see it because of your friend or did God allow you to see it?

Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

It's not exactly the same as what you wrote. Or perhaps it's in a certain way.
Perhaps Peter was told many times Jesus was the Christ but he simply didn't process that info willingly or unwillingly. Until God lifted the veil.
Maybe God never told Peter directly Jesus was the Christ. But God allowed Peter finally 'get it' after failing to 'get it' 100 times before.

Veiled, bound to disobedience, parables because they aren't supposed to know.

i always struggled with 'eternal hell' even though I (kinda) believed it, so that was easy to give up....the salvation for all bit was harder..i think God allowed me to see that

So you believed in annihilation?
For me it was a bit like this:
Hell = Blasphemy
Annihilation = Justice
UR = Grace

i
well..I believed something 'bad' would happen to non- believers.....I was ambiguous about what exactly happened to non- believers,  post- mortem...i.e. whether they were annihilated, put on a dark bleak miserable planet somewhere forver,or physically tormented eternally...my belief concerning the 'eternal ' fate of the so called 'unsaved shifted like the shifting sands of the desert, blown by the wind.

[marie glen]

For me it was a bit like this:
Hell = Blasphemy
Annihilation = Justice
UR = Grace

Still fits! (imo) "Justice" in that the wages, result of sin is death.. the soul that sins it shall die - a natural law of justice built into all things..

Which would be the after life destiny of us all! If it were not for that so great salvation - UR = Grace - built in from the foundation/beginning/blueprint..
         ... :cloud9:

And - Hell = Blasphemy - absolutely, and without a doubt.. blasphemes His pristine character every day.. (temporarily however :banana: )

[Jason]

1. Jesus saves ALL including Satan.

Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." - Satan is the prince of the power of the air - notice: he has a principality and power (therefore he was created by and for Jesus Christ)

Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." - This includes Satan, both passages speak about  "ALL THINGS in heaven and in earth" - ALL THINGS meaning everything and everyone, NO EXCEPTIONS, EXCEPT GOD THE FATHER (according to the apostle Paul), whom Jesus Christ will be under BECAUSE God the Father is the one subjecting everything and everyone under the feet of Jesus Christ, INCLUDING SATAN.

Somebody might say, "This doesn't refer to people or Satan and his demons." - well then, everyone is lost forever according to you.
Somebody else might say, "This doesn't include Satan." - oh, but it does, Jesus Christ made peace through the blood of his cross to reconcile EVEN the principality of the power of the air - Satan and his demons

Isaiah 25:7,8 "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations.  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth for the LORD hath spoken it." - I chose this passage rather than the smaller one in the book of Revelation BECAUSE this is where that one came from.  I would ask anybody who believes in "everlasting hell" how/why God would wipe tears from off all faces if he doesn't CARE ABOUT ALL.

2. You reap what you sow.  Nobody has sown "everlasting hell".  Nobody can reap "everlasting hell".  This could also be a terrible, terrible warning to stop preaching about "everlasting hell" because (if it were actually true, then) only those preaching about it would be going there.

3. Logic doesn't work on people who believe in "everlasting hell".  IN FACT, the ministers at the church that I attend WARN NOT TO USE LOGIC... I'm not even joking.  They seriously said that in a recent sermon.  They need to be touched by the Spirit to remove their blindness, possibly multiple times.  The best thing to do is ask Jesus to reveal the truth to them, make your effort, but realize that they and you need help from The Spirit.

[darryl]

1. Jesus saves ALL including Satan.

Colossians 1:16 "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in earth, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him." - Satan is the prince of the power of the air - notice: he has a principality and power (therefore he was created by and for Jesus Christ)

Colossians 1:20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven." - This includes Satan, both passages speak about  "ALL THINGS in heaven and in earth" - ALL THINGS meaning everything and everyone, NO EXCEPTIONS, EXCEPT GOD THE FATHER (according to the apostle Paul), whom Jesus Christ will be under BECAUSE God the Father is the one subjecting everything and everyone under the feet of Jesus Christ, INCLUDING SATAN.

Somebody might say, "This doesn't refer to people or Satan and his demons." - well then, everyone is lost forever according to you.
Somebody else might say, "This doesn't include Satan." - oh, but it does, Jesus Christ made peace through the blood of his cross to reconcile EVEN the principality of the power of the air - Satan and his demons

Isaiah 25:7,8 "And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations.  He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth for the LORD hath spoken it." - I chose this passage rather than the smaller one in the book of Revelation BECAUSE this is where that one came from.  I would ask anybody who believes in "everlasting hell" how/why God would wipe tears from off all faces if he doesn't CARE ABOUT ALL.

2. You reap what you sow.  Nobody has sown "everlasting hell".  Nobody can reap "everlasting hell".  This could also be a terrible, terrible warning to stop preaching about "everlasting hell" because (if it were actually true, then) only those preaching about it would be going there.

3. Logic doesn't work on people who believe in "everlasting hell".  IN FACT, the ministers at the church that I attend WARN NOT TO USE LOGIC... I'm not even joking.  They seriously said that in a recent sermon.  They need to be touched by the Spirit to remove their blindness, possibly multiple times.  The best thing to do is ask Jesus to reveal the truth to them, make your effort, but realize that they and you need help from The Spirit.

if it's anything like my church some of them interpret the Bible through their eyes of judgement, condemnation and self-righteousness...amazingly, some others (in my church) have a less exclusivistic interpretation, more loving

[Jason]

if it's anything like my church some of them interpret the Bible through their eyes of judgement, condemnation and self-righteousness...amazingly, some others (in my church) have a less exclusivistic interpretation, more loving

Well... honestly, it's a stubborn clinging to traditions, that and the preachers "need" to keep the people there to keep their income.  So they say, "We are the one true church.  Our bible version is the only one that's correct, those new bibles are satanic, etc." - nevermind the other 29,999 denominations, they're all wrong... I had no clue there are that many until I read content on this site.

One of the ministers told the church to read the bible.  That one single time that he said that NEVER occured again as far as I know.  Why?  It causes confusion because it's the Authorized KJV - aka a bible teaching two different theologies, eternal hellfire and universal reconciliation.

It's the ministers leading them astray, or rather KEEPING them astray.  They don't really focus on hell.  They focus on grace, and not works.  It's a shame that they don't understand that it's God's grace and faith that He freely gives (and most likely none of them have it yet).  It's good that they focus on the message of forgiveness, but they need to extend it to everybody, everywhere, and get rid of those stubborn traditions that cause them to paint God as a monster (the worst of which is "eternal hell").  However, they are so blind that they don't see that they are painting God as a monster in the case of my church.

A year ago, when I still believed what they believe, I simply thought that God would somehow figure it all out to save mostly everybody, exceptions being only Hitler and other "desperately evil" people.  I assumed that most of the world if not all would accept Jesus Christ before dying.  The bible does say that everyone is without excuse, the invisible things of the God-head being seen throughout the creation.  So for people who have heard this particular part of Romans and hear about "eternal hell" may simply assume that everyone has been given a chance to accept Jesus Christ or will be given a chance, and that multiple billions just reject Him (or in my case, most accept Him) and it's somehow their fault.  They never consider the terrible picture that "eternal hell" paints of God.  Never mind the actual state of things in the world...

I did read the testimonies of people on this site.  I'm horrified at how many have been scarred by the teaching of "eternal hell".  Most people actually don't believe it, not truly, unless they have those hellfire and brimstone preachers.  I never did really accept it.  It isn't biblical, and yet it is (sadly).  Perhaps the reason that I never accepted it is because of physical abuse I received as a child.  If I could forgive my dad, obviously God could forgive most people.  There is definitely this underlying assumption that barely anybody will be in "everlasting hell" - only the "desperately wicked" - in Arminian theology anyway.  Calvinistic theology is quite different.  :eek:

What else can be added?  Yeah, "because we don't drink, don't watch T.V., don't do certain things, that makes us Christians" - certainly self-righteousness, with varying degrees between different individuals in the church.  Their mixture of theology causes them to ostracize anybody and everybody who doesn't join the group.  It's pretty much the same story as the other 29,999 denominations.  If anything, it's like living under a rock theologically speaking, but they like it under that rock, it's the best place ever, because the alternative is being damned to "eternal hell".  Fear is what keeps all of these sheep under their false shepherds.

[darryl]

if it's anything like my church some of them interpret the Bible through their eyes of judgement, condemnation and self-righteousness...amazingly, some others (in my church) have a less exclusivistic interpretation, more loving

Well... honestly, it's a stubborn clinging to traditions, that and the preachers "need" to keep the people there to keep their income.  So they say, "We are the one true church.  Our bible version is the only one that's correct, those new bibles are satanic, etc." - nevermind the other 29,999 denominations, they're all wrong... I had no clue there are that many until I read content on this site.

One of the ministers told the church to read the bible.  That one single time that he said that NEVER occured again as far as I know.  Why?  It causes confusion because it's the Authorized KJV - aka a bible teaching two different theologies, eternal hellfire and universal reconciliation.

It's the ministers leading them astray, or rather KEEPING them astray.  They don't really focus on hell.  They focus on grace, and not works.  It's a shame that they don't understand that it's God's grace and faith that He freely gives (and most likely none of them have it yet).  It's good that they focus on the message of forgiveness, but they need to extend it to everybody, everywhere, and get rid of those stubborn traditions that cause them to paint God as a monster (the worst of which is "eternal hell").  However, they are so blind that they don't see that they are painting God as a monster in the case of my church.

A year ago, when I still believed what they believe, I simply thought that God would somehow figure it all out to save mostly everybody, exceptions being only Hitler and other "desperately evil" people.  I assumed that most of the world if not all would accept Jesus Christ before dying.  The bible does say that everyone is without excuse, the invisible things of the God-head being seen throughout the creation.  So for people who have heard this particular part of Romans and hear about "eternal hell" may simply assume that everyone has been given a chance to accept Jesus Christ or will be given a chance, and that multiple billions just reject Him (or in my case, most accept Him) and it's somehow their fault.  They never consider the terrible picture that "eternal hell" paints of God.  Never mind the actual state of things in the world...

I did read the testimonies of people on this site.  I'm horrified at how many have been scarred by the teaching of "eternal hell".  Most people actually don't believe it, not truly, unless they have those hellfire and brimstone preachers.  I never did really accept it.  It isn't biblical, and yet it is (sadly).  Perhaps the reason that I never accepted it is because of physical abuse I received as a child.  If I could forgive my dad, obviously God could forgive most people.  There is definitely this underlying assumption that barely anybody will be in "everlasting hell" - only the "desperately wicked" - in Arminian theology anyway.  Calvinistic theology is quite different.  :eek:

What else can be added?  Yeah, "because we don't drink, don't watch T.V., don't do certain things, that makes us Christians" - certainly self-righteousness, with varying degrees between different individuals in the church.  Their mixture of theology causes them to ostracize anybody and everybody who doesn't join the group.  It's pretty much the same story as the other 29,999 denominations.  If anything, it's like living under a rock theologically speaking, but they like it under that rock, it's the best place ever, because the alternative is being damned to "eternal hell".  Fear is what keeps all of these sheep under their false shepherds.

:iagree:

[Dandelion]

I would love to write a detailed rebuttal, but, though I am a good writer, I take a long time to complete my writings, so, I will say this.

For me, the debate can be summed up by saying, "Love never fails." I Corinthians 13:8

God is love, and only He is perfect love. He made us in His image; He has told us He loves us with an everlasting love; His mercies are new, every morning.

He has said that even Death cannot keep us from His love.

For all those people to be sent to eternal torment, would mean that love failed. Love failed to make people who could love Him; love failed to keep them safe; love failed to bring them Home; love failed to be able to save them; love failed to show them enough love, to convince them of His great love for them.

But, Love never fails.

And, God's love will most certainly never fail. 

D.

[joeteekay]

Dandelion :thumbsup:
It is too bad that more people do not believe the simple but profound truth that "love never fails".
:thumbsup:

[rosered]

Dandelion :thumbsup:
It is too bad that more people do not believe the simple but profound truth that "love never fails".
:thumbsup:

  Amen , The greatest power in the universe   is GOD / LOVE ..  God is Love

  1John 4 Love Comes from God


7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God.


Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.


8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

9This is how God's love was revealed among us:

God sent His one and only Son into the world, so that we might live/LOVE  through Him....!!

We are talking about   the kind of love salvation  brings  deliverance  here


preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss.

synonyms:   lifeline, preservation; More
2.
THEOLOGY
deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ.
synonyms:   redemption, deliverance, reclamation
"salvation by way of repentance"    a change of mind and  mostly   HEART

GOD  is a righteous Judge  and everything is His to do as He sees  fit to do .

His power is His glory  that  everything will rejoice in , in the end . 
It is a precious love   that will not let evil go unpunished  ,
  the Word testifies of this fact and  I for one believe Gods word
All anyone has to do it look at the world in chaos and see  this is  of a truth .

  The cross  of the Lord Jesus  appears and weak and beggarly to the world  ,   what the flesh could not do  but die .
  But it was the Spirit of God to raise up the Lord Jesus  Christ in total   power to overcome  the   world   and be the  Lord of everything  of heaven and earth and below   by This  TRUTH   would all salvation come though .

[marie glen]

I would love to write a detailed rebuttal, but, though I am a good writer, I take a long time to complete my writings, so, I will say this.

For me, the debate can be summed up by saying, "Love never fails." I Corinthians 13:8

God is love, and only He is perfect love. He made us in His image; He has told us He loves us with an everlasting love; His mercies are new, every morning.

He has said that even Death cannot keep us from His love.

For all those people to be sent to eternal torment, would mean that love failed. Love failed to make people who could love Him; love failed to keep them safe; love failed to bring them Home; love failed to be able to save them; love failed to show them enough love, to convince them of His great love for them.

But, Love never fails.

And, God's love will most certainly never fail. 

D.

Dandelion :thumbsup:
It is too bad that more people do not believe the simple but profound truth that "love never fails".
:thumbsup:

    :dsunny: :banana: :banana: Amen!!

Now there's some - perhaps the best - logic!



And amen, Jason!

I was horrified at your #3 in a post above - preachers saying not to use logic! :gimpossible: :faint: I'm like the other extreme, thinking the root word of logic is Logos.

And #2

2. You reap what you sow.  Nobody has sown "everlasting hell".  Nobody can reap "everlasting hell".  This could also be a terrible, terrible warning to stop preaching about "everlasting hell" because (if it were actually true, then) only those preaching about it would be going there.

   oh dear.. I know one thing (or think i do) that if their gospel has sown more disbelief than belief.. how very sad.. ..that so much of someone's works could become like smoke and ashes..

Very good point! And actually hell, being likely metaphor(?) as opposed to place(?) and smoke and ashes, metaphor of the same thing(?) so in effect, they may indeed reap some hellfire.. Besides the remorse they may feel?

It's good to know all will reap joy in the 'end' though! And of course I do believe genuine believers are likely "storing up treasure in the kingdom" but I do truly believe preaching hell or everlasting torment or even eternal annihilation, takes some it away. Especially the fiery forever 'hell' gives non-believers a good basis for not believing.. And as with anything, all we see is the tip of the iceberg.. I also think that gospel makes some people angry.. And they hate God (who they don't believe exists!)

[Pig]

The issue is much deeper than has been discussed.

By the end of the first century the church had "Lost their first love" by deifying Mary, became the Nicolaitans by conquering the laity, adopted the doctrine of Balaam by compromising with the government and flesh, and welcomed the Judaisers by adopting Jewish ritual into the mass.   They then proceeded to kill their enemies rather than love them, demonstrating that they did not have the slightest clue about the doctrine of the Bible.

Protestant churches adopted the same hermeneutic that produced these abominable doctrines, and many were willing to kill for the faith in the same way. The Restoration churches had the desire to cast it all off, but unfortunately did not have the tools to read the Bible the way Jesus and the apostles did.

The disagreement with hell-believers happens because the church has no standard of truth. We say the Bible is our standard, but since we all practice Greek philosophy, debate, logic and rhetoric, we simply argue with no way to discern truth, leaving each to believe what he wants. We have the Christian equivalent of the Areopagus where everyone decides what to believe for themselves... and it is fine until you step on someone's toes, then we start the fires to burn heretics.

The interpretation of Revelation is faulty BY ALL. It all speaks of the cross in symbols used throughout the rest of scripture. It does not speak of future events. Jesus was serious when he said it was finished. It is like a Rosetta stone to open up the mystery hidden in the OT which always speaks of Christ.

The hermeneutic to interpret it is self-correcting. It does not allow for human invention.  It is practiced by NT authors, and we can learn it from them.

Be skeptical, but hear it and validate this against the scriptures.  Paul taught the Bereans from the OT. His doctrine comes from the OT. The stuff in the Gospels is there because it is in the OT, in the mystery. The NT is just a sermon outline to preach Christ from the OT.

Let me show you that WE have it wrong from the beginning:

Rev 1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ it is about Jesus Christ...not China and Russia.

which God gave unto him. - God gave it to Jesus, not John. John is not mentioned yet. Pronouns have to refer to someone mentioned. John would have said "given to me" if it was given to him.

Did Jesus get the revelation before or after the cross?  It was before the cross!  After the cross he had 'grasped' his omniscience' again. He had no need for revelation.

to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass - he was always telling his disciples that he had to face the cross, (the things which were soon coming) But they forgot what Jesus had taught  them, and he sent them the Holy Spirit to remind them of what they had been taught.

John was reminded by the Spirit what he had learned from Jesus:  and he sent and signified it by his angel (messenger) unto his servant John.

If you want to show there is no hell, teach the real meaning of the book of Revelation.  A symbol is always the same thing.

Leaven IS NOT sin, since the Kingdom of heaven is like leaven.  It is teaching. Beware of the teaching of the Pharisees. They got rid of the old teaching before Passover to prepare for the New teaching of the cross.  Jesus was the untaught teacher.

Reading the scripture spiritually means to read it in truth, not to spiritualize everything away. Properly reading a symbol as a symbol is the very best exegesis.

But until you cast off the Greek hermeneutic, you have no standard of truth but yourself.

[rosered]

  Thank you Pig , for the insightful  explanation   !    I agree with you n   that the symbolism   of key words  are so helpful in helping  understand further .

  I can agree  that leaven  is   teaching   in  what is right or wrong   can and  does   influence   and persuade   our minds .

[rosered]

   I would say , just trust in God   the one who is able   to do the impossible !
  all things are possible with God  , with man it is impossible to   keep all the law  , and if we break one we broke them all [james 2]
  we are all bound up under the Covenant LAWS ......

  , GODS MERCY  is what saves us all GODS AMAZING GRACE ........
   JESUS WORDS     HE TRUSTED HIS FATHER  FULLY  AND COMPLETELY  , we ARE TO COME TO THAT powerful  FAITH also and keeping that hope alive in us and LOVE is what  covers  us all   , God is no respecter of person ......

  17 And He said to him, Why do you ask Me about the perfectly and essentially good? There is only One Who is good [perfectly and essentially]—God. If you would enter into the Life, you must continually keep the commandments.

18 He said to Him, What sort of commandments? [Or, which ones?] And Jesus answered, You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,

19 Honor your father and your mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself.

20 The young man said, I have observed all these from my youth; what still do I lack?

21 Jesus answered him, If you would be perfect [that is, have that spiritual maturity which accompanies self-sacrificing character], go and sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven; and come, be My disciple [side with My party and follow Me].

22 But when the young man heard this, he went away sad (grieved and in much distress), for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus said to His disciples, Truly I say to you, it will be difficult for a rich man to get into the kingdom of heaven.

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go into the kingdom of heaven.

25 When the disciples heard this, they were utterly puzzled (astonished, bewildered), saying, Who then can be saved [from eternal death]?

26 But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God.

We must draw  closer to God  and trust  in  HIS   works of the  Holy Spirit .       the one whom will guide us into all truth by answering our  calling upon HIS   NAME .

john 16 The Promise of the Holy Spirit

...12I still have much to tell you, but you cannot yet bear to hear it.

13However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.

14He will glorify Me by taking from what is Mine and disclosing it to you....   

[marie glen]

...
The disagreement with hell-believers happens because the church has no standard of truth. We say the Bible is our standard, but since we all practice Greek philosophy, debate, logic and rhetoric, we simply argue with no way to discern truth, leaving each to believe what he wants. We have the Christian equivalent of the Areopagus where everyone decides what to believe for themselves...
...

Yes, some try to put God and Revelation in a box.. But I just think the fiery prophecies at the times written and translated, no one had any idea about modern man's (fiery) capabilities. How coincidental the Lord's coming "in fire" is described as being when the LORD gathers all nations in the Valley of Hinnom / Armageddon / Gehenna (Rev.14; Isaiah; Zecharariah).. And where are the Revelation mentions of LOF? At Jesus' return - being 2 Peter 3:10-11 - at the adversary's final defeat (rev.20) - and at the "all in all" event of Rev.21:1-5 - being 2 Peter 3:12-13.

The ages of redemption - 1st advent fulfilling Passover, Unleavened Bread (of Life), Firstfruits, and Pentecost - "those that are His at His coming" (1 Cor.15:22-23) ----- The Long 2nd Advent and 3 peaks of - Trumpets (of Rev. & His return at the last) - 1000yrs (represented by 10 days) later -- Day of Atonement / Great Day of Forgiveness as the CEV says it - 5days/500years later - Tabernacles when "God will now tabernacle upon earth made anew.."

We were baptized with fire.. so will "ALL" be.. He chose.. we didn't choose, neither did those not saved during this brief life. We were not physically burned nor tortured.. so why would they be? But the wrong way of life - anything other than "the Way" can only ever be apocalypse and tribulation.. Apocalypse began in Eden.