Anti-universalist article about aion

[FineLinen]

As pretty new to UR, these type of arguments cause me to catch my breath a little bit...it helps to see truth presented by someone who's further along...thanks!!

Hi there Jabcat: John Gavazzoni is a tremendous man of God. We have had the honour of sitting together with him on numerous occasions. He is a calm and gentle man whose love for the Lord and His word is profound indeed. He is far, far along, and leaves me breathless, which is no easy feat indeed!  :happygrin:

On the meaning of the adjective aionios, the word rendered "eternal" in Matt. 25:46:

First assertion: The meaning of aionios is flexible with regard to duration:

"Schleusner, whose exact learning makes his authority of great weight, defines aion, thus: 'Any space of time, whether longer or shorter, past, present, or future, to be determined by the persons or things spoken of, and the scope of the subject — the life or age of a man; any space in which we measure human life, from birth to death.'" Thayer, Thomas B., The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment (James M. Usher: Boston), 1855, p. 155.

Second assertion: The use of the word in ancient universalist writings supports the above interpretation:

"The Sibylline Oracles, Clemens Alexandrinus, Origen, and others of the Christian Fathers, who are acknowledged believers and teachers of the final restoration, often use the phrases 'everlasting fire,' 'everlasting punishment,' &c., in regard to the wicked Nothing can more conclusively show that the expressions are not to be taken in the sense of endless; for though they believed in everlasting punishment, they also believed it would end in the restoration of those who suffered." Ibid., p. 157-158

Third assertion: The words not used by biblical authors to describe punishment strengthens this view:

"... when the Scripture writers set forth the future state of happiness, they employ other terms than aionios, rendered in the text everlasting and eternal! Different terms, we find employed for this purpose, which are never connected with punishment. Aphthartos is a Greek word, which occurs several times in the New Testament, and means incorruptible, immortal, but is never applied to punishment! We read of 'the glory of the incorruptible God,' Rom. i. 23; and that 'the dead shall be raised incorruptible,' I Cor. xv. 52; and of an incorruptible inheritance, 1 Peter i. 4; and of the 'King eternal and immortal,' 1 Tim. i. 17; but we never read of incorruptible punishment, nor of an immortal hell!

"Aphtharsia is another Greek word which was employed by the sacred writers in a similar sense, to signify immortal and incorruption. Hence, the 'dead are raised in incorruption,' 1 Cor. xv. 42; and 'inherit incorruption,' verse 50; and 'that Christ hath brought life and immortality to light,' 2 Tim. i. 10. This term, all admit, is never applied to punishment. It describes an endless life, but not an endless death!" Livermore, Daniel Parker, Proof-texts of endless punishment, examined and explained (S&A Emerson: Chicago) 1862, p. 12.

Fourth assertion: The subject of aionios determines its duration:

"The true meaning of aionios is age-lasting, or an indefinite period of time. It is applied to things that are endless, but more frequently to things of limited duration. It is the subject to which it is applied that indicates its meaning. If the nature of that subject is endless in duration, that qualifies the meaning of the word and indicates the sense in which we use the term, everlasting. But if the subject to which this term is applied, is of a limited nature, the word has a limited signification. The subject always determines the meaning of the word. We read of the everlasting hills, and the everlasting God, and it is the nature of each subject which determines the meaning of the word. It must, therefore, first be shown that punishment is necessarily endless in duration, before we can determine that the word everlasting when applied to it, has any such signification." Ibid., p. 15.

[FineLinen]

The Berean Expositor

Forever=

HERE

Eternal Life #1

Among the doctrines which come before the student of Scripture in his search into its teaching regarding human destiny, is that of eternal or everlasting life.  In order to avoid the traditional interpretation, and also to keep out of sight any ideas of our own, we shall transliterate the word translated "Eternal," and call it aionion throughout this inquiry. 

Our present quest is to discover as far as possible all that Scripture says regarding aionion life, to whom it is given, upon what basis, whether it is exclusively proffered to faith, or to works, or to both; whether it is a present possession, or a future one; whether it has to do with the final or a transition state, and anything further that may be learned by a careful and prayerful study.

The first occurrence of the words aionion life is in Matt. xix.16,

"Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have aionion life."

It will be observed that "doing good" is directly associated with "having aionion life." The Lord, it is true, corrects the error contained in the loose usage of the word "good," but does not correct the idea that good works, or keeping the commandments, were necessary for the attainment of this life, for He said:-

Continued HERE

Eternal Life #2

In our issue of July 1916 we drew attention to the way in which aionian life was used in Matthew's Gospel.  There is a marked difference when we consider the teaching of John's Gospel.

While works are constantly associated with aionian life in Matthew, faith is the constant
accompaniment in John. The first occurrences are typical.  John iii. 14-16.- Here aionian life is definitely linked with faith, and with the offering of Christ.  The reference to the serpent lifted up, shows very definitely that faith in Christ as the offering for sin is in view.

The Lord Himself used the expression "lifted up" to signify "what death He should die" (John xii.33).  The last verse of John iii. testifies to the same truth.  "He that believeth on the Son hath aionian life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God awaiteth for him."

John v.29 is one of the passages introduced by the solemn words "verily verily," the terms are somewhat different, but faith is still the essential, "He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath aionian life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life."

John vi. records the miracle of the feeding of the five thousand, and the subsequent effect upon the people.  The Lord rebuked their mere desire for food, saying to them, "Labour not for the meat that perisheth, but that meat which endureth unto aionian life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for Him hath God the Father
sealed."

The argument is continued throughout the chapter.  It reappears in the words of John xvii.3; that argument is faith in Christ as the sent One.  "This is aionian life, that they might know Thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou hast sent."

Speaking of the disciples the Lord says, "they have believed that Thou didst send Me"
(xvii.8).  Again, in verse 18, the Lord refers to being "sent into the world." His prayer continues and looks forward to the time when the "world may believe that Thou hast sent Me" (verse 21); and finally, "that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me."  This is evidently a most important theme.

Continued HERE

Just what Do You Mean Eternity -J. Preston Eby-

HERE

[FineLinen]

Aionios

The adjective, 'aionios' is used seventy-one times in the N.T. Only once is it applied to the Deity, forty-three times to 'life', five times to 'fire', and the remainder to items such as 'judgment', Correction (Matt.25:46) 'the gospel', 'kingdom', 'covenant', 'inheritance', 'spirit', 'glory', 'times', and 'banishment' (II Thes.1:9).

Since, as we have seen, the noun 'aion' refers to a period of time, it appears very improbable that the derived adjective 'aionios' would indicate infinite duration, nor have we found any evidence in Greek writings to show that such a concept was expressed by this term. An example of its use is found on an ancient (third century) lead tablet in the necropolis at Adrumentum near Carthage, 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, up-above the up-above gods'. To write 'eternal and more than eternal' is too incongruous to be accepted, but to regard the Deity as living before, and in fact originating the aeons of time, (Heb.1:2) presents no problem.

First let us look at Rom.16:26 where the only case of 'aionios' linked with 'God' occurs. Paul refers to 'a sacred secret in aeonian times kept silent but now made manifest...according to the command of the aeonian God'. Since the context deals with aeonian times and processes, the apostle recognizes God's plan, purpose, and control of these periods while not in any sense limiting the Deity to these spans of time which He uses for his revelation. 'God of the ages' may well be the meaning of 'aeonian God'. If so, then no conflict arises when 'aeonian' is applied in seventy other passages, to entities which cannot be regarded as 'eternal', without beginning or ending.

In the Authorized Version of 1611, 'eternal' is used forty-one times to translate 'aionios'. Other translations and paraphrases contain over thirty different expressions which we have set out in Chapter 10. Because English has no adjective derived from 'age' various courses have been followed with the objective of consistently conveying the Greek meaning into our language. The problem is increased by the various shades of meaning in English expressions. If we follow the analogy of English usage, then an adjective formed from a noun denoting a period of time, means DURING that period, frequently once only. Thus an hourly signal occurs once each hour, a daily visit, once each day, and similarly for weekly, monthly, annual, yearly and so on. If we wish to state that a process lasts for the whole of a time period, we add the word 'long'- an hour-long delay, a year-long banishment, and so on. The common factor in these two patterns is that the event or process occurs or continues within the period mentioned. The one certain fact is that the item under discussion belongs within the time span stated, not outside it. A weekly visit and a week-long visit both occur within the week, not extending beyond it. At the same time we should note that while hourly, daily, yearly and the like mean once each time period, they may also indicate repetition as in 'our daily bread', weekly wage, annual tax, etc.

If we apply this principle to 'aionios', we will conclude that events or processes referred to as 'aeonian' belong within the ages of the biblical framework and some circumlocutionary phrase such as 'pertaining to the ages or ages', 'occurring within, or lasting for the aeon or aeons' may express the thought.

In each case to treat 'aionios' concordantly and so avoid the multiplicity of conflicting terms in different versions, several translators have coined such compounds as 'age-abiding' (Rotherham) 'age-during' (Young) which suggest that the process in view lasts for the whole of an age or ages whereas the meaning may be that it occurs during these periods.

A better approach seems to be that followed in Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott, 1881 where 'aionian' is used , and in the Concordant Version of the N.T. (1930), 'eonian'. The use of this transliteration of the Greek term, while not in itself answering all the Bible student's questions does suggest caution and enquiry rather than unquestioning use of 'eternal'.

Moulton and Milligan in their Vocabulary of the Greek Testament in commenting on 'aionios' state, 'In general the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether it lies no further than the span of Ceasar's life'.

A parallel may be drawn with our use of the adverb 'always'. In the two sentences, 'God always exist', and 'I always walk to work'. the meaning is very different though the primitive significance of continuance is not lost.

In II Cor.4:18 the contrast between 'temporary' (the things seen) and 'aeonian' (the unseen) appears to be between trials whose end can be foreseen, and lasting blessings with 'no horizon' envisaged.

Hebrews 9:12-15, states the contrast between the temporary nature of the old Exodus covenant with its rituals, and the abiding efficacy of Christ himself.

In verse 12 we have, 'He entered once for all the holy places' aeonian redemption having found (maybe, brought to light, uncovered, displayed)'.

Theologically one might argue that God's gracious attitude being characteristic of His nature, it would be as infinite as He, and hence the 'redemption' manifested by our Lord must be 'eternal' - as stated in the A.V. and R.V.

On the other hand the need for redemption is contingent upon human sinfulness, and while the work of our Lord is irreversible it would have no relevance in periods prior to the existence of the human race but does apply on into unhorizoned futurity.

In Heb.9:14, the phrase 'through an aeonian spirit' gives no indication whether we should regard 'spirit' as a common or proper noun here. Literally the rendering would run '(Christ) through an aeonian spirit himself offered spotless (flawless) to the God'. This may well mean that a spirit of devotion knowing no bounds or horizons, the Son always throughout all the ages places himself at the disposal of the Father's will.

In the popular Authorized Version of 1611, while 'eternity' appears but once, (Isa.57:15) 'eternal' is used forty- one times to translate 'aionios' alone, so the readers have become conditioned to its use.

One of the chief difficulties in discovering what the biblical writers meant by the words they used is to rid our own minds of ingrained theological and philosophical patterns of thought which color our interpretations of many important passages.

The wisest course appears to be to regard the use of 'eternal' to render 'aionios' with great caution, and to examine each case carefully in relation to its immediate context, all other relevant passages, and the message of the sacred scriptures in general.

Once it is recognized that 'eternal' is not a satisfactory rendering for 'aionios' the question arises as to how this term of Latin origin came to be so commonly employed in the A.V. of 1611 and many later versions. Our next Chapter will briefly discuss the process.

Dr. J.W. Hanson: Aion/ Aionios/ Olam

THE GREEK WORD

AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS,

TRANSLATED

Everlasting -- Eternal

IN THE HOLY BIBLE, SHOWN TO DENOTE LIMITED DURATION.

HERE

[FineLinen]

"Eternal torment" is not mentioned in Scripture!

What part of "and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever", don't you understand F.Linen?

That is correct. "Eternal torment" is not mentioned in Scripture!

Search = "Eternal torment"

Your search query for 'eternal torment' has yielded no results. Please modify your search and try again.

I repeat: your statement is incorrect!

So stop wasting web pages with rubbish spurred on by your purely emotional drive to not accept the notion of eternal torment as clearly laid out in scripture time and time and time again.

I will tell you what I do understand, my friend...

1. The noun aijwvn in itself does not demonstrate unending (without beginning and ending) in the broadest stretch in the Koine. Nor does the adjective aijwvnioß in itself, & rooted in aijwvn, demonstrate unending,

2. The Lake of Fire is rooted in qei'oß. The essence of the Limne is qei'oß, and radiates with His breath (tyrpg -gophriyth), and qei'on, again rooted in qei'oß. The Lake of pu'r is the Lake of qei'oß.

3. Both "basanivzw ejn pu'r kaiv qui'on" & "basanivzw hJmevra kaiv nuvx eijß aijwvn aijwvn" are not unending, and most definitely not "eternal", or "everlasting".

Let me say to Bible students that we must be very careful how we use the word "eternity." We have fallen into great error in our constant use of that word. There is no word in the whole Book of God corresponding with our "eternal," which, as commonly used among us, means absolutely without end. The strongest Scripture word used with reference to the existence of God, is–"unto the ages of the ages," which does not literally mean eternally. Let us remember however that the self-same word, which is thus used in connection with the existence of God, is also applied to the loss of the human soul. Men have divided the Church, separated from each other, and persecuted one another, upon a thought conveyed by an English word which has no equivalent in the Bible.  -G. Campbell Morgan-

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[FineLinen]

Ancient writings, other than the Scriptures, show how aion and aionios were used in the ordinary affairs of that time period.

Long ago in Rome, periodic games were held. These were referred to as "secular" games. Herodian, who wrote in Greek about the end of the second century A.D., called these aionios, "eonian," games. In no sense could those games have been eternal.

Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?"

In the Apostolical Constitutions, a work of the fourth century A.D., it is said, kai touto humin esto nomimon aionion hos tes suntleias to aionos, "And let this be to you an eonian ordinance until the consummation of the eon." Obviously there was no thought in the author's mind of endless time.

Dr. Agar Beet, in his article "On the Future Punishment of Sin," published in The Expositor, carefully examined the meaning of the word aionios, and the only passage in which Dr. Beet could adduce the word could possibly mean endless was from Plato's Laws (p. 904 A). But there is a question there as to whether Plato was referring to endless time.

The noun and adjective we are studying were used repeatedly in the Septuagint in relation to ordinances and laws which were limited as to time. A check of these usages as given in a concordance to the Septuagint will show there is no instance in which these words can refer to endlessness.

Kolasis Is Corrective: Timoria Encompasses The Satisfaction Of The Inflictor

Note:

Unfruitful: The adjective akarpos come from the alph-privative a- & karpos, "fruit." So it means "unfruitful" or "unproductive"--since fruit is used the K.J.V. for crops.

There are those who insist that the "punishments" of God are "forever and ever." The Greek word for punish and punishment appears just three times in the N.T. Each time, the punishing comes at the hands of humans, not from God. There is no word meaning "punish" or "punishment" in the Hebrew.

However, our common version translates two Greek words, timoreo, "punish," and kalazo, "chastise," with the same English word, "punish." Chastising carries the idea of correcting with a view to amendment of one's mistakes, while punishment is penal action. These two words were defined by Aristotle in his Rhet. 1, 10, 17, as, "kolasis is corrective, timoria alone is the satisfaction of the inflictor." Archbishop Trench states in his synonyms of the N.T. (p. 23-24): "timorio indicates the vindictive character of punishment; kolasis indicates punishment as it has reference to correcting and bettering the offender." Kolasin is the word our Lord used as recorded at Matt. 25:46 which the King James tradition mistranslates "everlasting punishment". Timoreo is used at Acts 22:5; 26:11; and timoria at Heb. 10:29.

Forever and ever & beyond?

In Ex. 15:18, where the KJV says: "The Lord shall reign forever and ever," the Septuagint shows, kurios basileuon ton aiona kai ap aiona kai eti, "The Lord is reigning the eon, and upon eon, and longer," and the Latin Vulgate, in aeternum et ultra, "into eternity and beyond." The Hebrew says, "Jehovah shall reign to the eon and beyond." Our conception of the English "forever and ever" allows for no time to be "beyond."

Some insist that while the noun in the singular does mean "age," in the plural it means "forever," or "eternal." But notice how both the singular and the plural are used in the Septuagint. At Micah 4:5 (singular), eis ton aiona kai epekeina, "for the eon and beyond," and at Dan. 12:3 (plural), eis tous aionas kai eti, "for the eons and longer." If the plural means forever, eternity, endless time etc., there can be no time longer than that. In the Book of Enoch there is, heos suntelesthê krima tou aionos ton aionon, "until the judgment of the eon of the eons may be accomplished." The Greek word suntelesthê is a compound word (sun + telesthê). Without the sun, telestha appears at Luke 12:50; Rev. 10:7; 17:17; 20:3,5, and 7 where it should be translated: "should be accomplished" (or "finished" or "consummated"). The heos of the above is a conjunction of time, which limits the judgment to a period called "the eon of the eons." Paul uses both the singular and the plural form in one sentence (Eph. 3:21), "to Him be glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons" (CV). Understand that as long as there are "generations," we are not at the end of all things and therefore "eon of the eons" cannot refer to eternity, everlasting, forever and ever, etc.

At Isa. 60:15, the adjective is used: "I will make you an eonian (aionion) excellency." This is followed by, "a joy of many generations." Eonian cannot mean endlessness here, for when the eons close, generations cease for there will be no more procreation.

Dr. Mangey, a translator of the writings of Philo, says Philo did not use aionios to express endless duration.

Josephus shows that aionios did not mean endlessness, for he uses it of the period between the giving of the law to Moses and that of his own writing; to the period of the imprisonment of the tyrant John by the Romans; and to the period during which Herod's temple stood. The temple had already been destroyed by the time Josephus was writing.

St. Gregory of Nyssa speaks of aionios diastêma, "an eonian interval." It would be absurd to call an interval "endless."

St. Chrysostum, in his homily on Eph. 2:1-3, says that "Satan's kingdom is æonian; that is, it will cease with the present world."

St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin ...all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, "eonian chastening ...but a period, not a thousand years." Or, as some translate the last clause: "but a period of a thousand years only." He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.

In 1 Enoch 10:10 there is an interesting statement using the Greek words: zoên aionion, "life eonian," or, as in the KJV, "everlasting life" (at John 3:16 and elswhere). The whole sentence in Enoch is, hoti elpizousi zêsai zoên aionion, kai hoti zêsetai hekastos auton etê pentakosia, "For they hope to live an eonian life, and that each one of them will live five hundred years." Here, eonian life is limited to five hundred years! In the N.T. eonian life is limited to life during the eons, after which death will be destroyed by making ALL alive IN CHRIST, incorruptible and immortal.

[FineLinen]

Please note: this is a response to the subject of aion and aionios by angelmom01

Hello Again Finelinen,

I wanted to add something about "aion" and "aionios" and forgot.

At one time, I thought that I had that whole 'argument' figured out, as what you said is very true ("An adjective cannot hold greater scope than the noun upon which it is rooted.")


For this reason we know that something that happens "hourly" is rooted in the what the word "hour" means (same with month/ly, year/ly, etc). So the argument would be that whatever is "aionios" is rooted in what the word "aion" (properly "an age") means.

But one thing that has to be taken into consideration is that there are those things that are SEEN and those things that are NOT SEEN and it is those things that are not seen that are said to be "eternal" ("aionios"):

2Co 4:17-18 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal (aionios) weight of glory; While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios).

Seems to me that there is a division here between those things that are natural ("seen") and those things that are spiritual ("not seen"). And really, isn't that what all scripture boils down to?

Hi there AngelMom, and much thanks for your excellent post. The strength of aion & aionios rests on the object to which it points. If the object of reference is the Eternal God, then both aion and aionios can mean without beginning and ending. But the strength of both is entirely on the foundation of the object to which it points. Neither aion, nor aionios, in themselves, carry the weight of everlasting or eternal.

In fact, aionios is not actually a time expressive word, (although aion is related to age and the plural ages), but rather one of quality. The Lord Jesus Christ defines what aionios life is...."This is zoe aionios that we might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You did send." And it is in this vein of calibre, or quality, that the apostle speaks of an aionios weight of glory which most assuredly relates to a realm of spirit that goes beyond this present carnal age. And, it is also worthy of note that there is the idea of "exceeding an aionios weight of glory excessively" encapsulated in what is being articulated.

I am getting too old for this business: it is becoming an increasingly strong overshadowing that there are words in our Father's realm that are "wordless words" and quite beyond expression. St. Paul wrote of one who was caught away into the heavenlies of our God and heard things which cannot be uttered. May the Lord who alone can articulate the deep things of the Spirit, help us in our frail experience.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Zach... :hithere:

No matter who says what about ETERNITY, no one can understand it... and ANY WORDS which are invented by men to note it are therefore INVALID...  :thumbdown:

CHRIST himself defeated the proposition of MEN, knowing the Heavenlies, knowing it could not be beheld... (John 3:12) 

It is enough for us to deal with TIME on a day to day basis... (Matt 6:34) ...so the wise, shall leave behind that which they are unable to KNOW (comprehend)...

Thanks, and I agree that many universalists go too far with aionios.

AION, AIONIOS, OWLAM, FOREVER, ETERNAL, EVERLASTING, ...ANY word in ANY language which is used by MAN in an attempt to refer to the ETERNAL is INVALID... and is futility for TIME-BOUND beings such as ourselves...

Man does not have the capability to comprehend ETERNAL, so any comments or words which endeavor to note it are invalid...

Much as one blind man (from birth) trying to teach another blind man (from birth) how to comprehend color... by explaining with words he thinks will bring the other understanding or comprehension... it is foolishness...  :sigh:

The only words which are valid are those which we can comprehend or be explained... The principle basis for ETERNITY is a scenario that has NO BEGINNING and NO END...

This concept stands outside our ability to percieve...  :grin:

:Peace:

...willieH  :laughing7:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi again Zach... :hithere:

http://ovrlnd.com/Universalism/aionios.html

I'm just wondering if anyone has any critique on this article. I can see a few problems with it, but I haven't done enough study on aion and aionios to absolutely confirm or refute what they say.

Just a couple more comments concerning this so called, 

:mock:  ..."article"...  :pointlaugh:

(1) this persons site does not provide a CONTACT option... so it is CLOSED off to its opinion only... verifying and measuring itself, by itself... (2 Cor 10:12)

(2) The commentary resides within, and requires that Greek or Hebrew understanding is essential to note the "TRUE" meanings of AION, AIONIOS, and OWLAM... This in itself is SELF VERIFICATION... first, it implies the writer "supposedly" has this knowledge... and second, it implies that Universalists in general do not... this is simply foolishness and is completely unfoundational...

It makes claims which cannot be proven one way or the other, but endeavors to establish those claims, without proof... trying to prompt the readers to believe that NO UNIVERSALISTS have studied the Hebrew or Greek languages... Saying the following in his "article":

Since none of the universalists I've discussed this with possess a working knowledge of Greek, they are in no position to determine who is right regarding this issue. As such, unless they gain the knowledge to make an informed call of judgment, they should stick with what they can verify themselves rather than parroting the uninspired words of men ­which happens to be the universalist party line.

In this foolish and deceptive statement, this person claims all the "Universalists" ...I... have discussed with... (which might amount to one or two)...  :thumbdown: ...and conveniently fails to note whether or NOT He, himself, is such a scholar by stating the school or schools, where HE studied Greek and Hebrew... :rolleye:

(3) Anything ETERNAL is in the following state: ALWAYS IS, (and therefore essentially, ALWAYS WAS, and ALWAYS WILL BE)... so any application of the word [eternal] in ANY language requires that the thing or being, it is applied TO, is PERPETUAL in ALL DIRECTIONS of observation... and also requires the USER, hold complete  comprehension of the OBSERVATION of that state [eternal]...

Since MAN is unable to comprehend this state [eternal]... he renders himself as invalid, and incapable of noting it [eternity] in any way, in any language toward any being or thing...

Removing VALIDITY from ANY attempt to apply it [the word eternal] to any being, or thing which, by its own admission, that it cannot COMPREHEND...

As I read a little of this ONE SIDED arguement (and even a little of it was boring and foolish), I noticed that this person wished to verify the application of AIONIOS, AION and OWLAM, as ETERNAL because they make reference GOD in various places...

This is foolishness... for GOD, though ETERNAL (without beginning or end or physical confinement), ...is STILL GOD concerning TIME, ...DURING and WITHIN its various lengths or portions...

In other words... concerning the REALM of TIME, ...YHVH is still GOD WITHIN IT, even though He remains and resides OUTSIDE IT... 

JESUS aptly noted this, when He stated:  Before Abraham was (time bound being), ...I AM! (ETERNAL being)... (John 8:58)

He SPOKE THESE WORDS, while a member of TIME, even though He referenced Himself, an ETERNAL MEMBER, in the statement... 

He also noted Himself as being in 2 places ...SIMULTANEOUSLY:  No man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that CAME DOWN from heaven, even the Son of Man which IS in heaven... (John 3:13)  Thereby INSIDE and OUTSIDE of TIME...

Unlike ourselves... JESUS was able to comprehend the ETERNAL... and was able, and DID speak as a member of BOTH REALMS... thus the double titles: Son of MAN, and SON of GOD...

Anyone can say anything... and that this person's article is not held open to rebuttle of ANY kind, shows itself closed off, ...to ITSELF... :rolleye:

As I write my words, I openly welcome anyone to challenge them... for 2 reasons...

(1) that I might share what I believe is TRUTH... and,
(2) that others might oppose them, by giving me either food for thought to consider, or providing an even more solid foundation to stand upon...

Anyone who is closed off from discussion of their viewpoints is reckoning themselves correct... and that determination results in the IDOLIZING of their own school of thought as CORRECT, as opposed to the OPPOSING viewpoint which is named INCORRECT... and thereby using their own view, to deduce the other INCORRECT...

This type of foolishness permeates RELIGION... and endeavors to place itself ABOVE another, by IT's SELF verifications of ITSELF...

That which proceeds from GOD is TRUTH, and it is up to HIM as to who, when and HOW, REVELATION shall occur...

ALL MEN are either REVEALED or VEILED in any given belief or view... and it is a matter of study, prayer and diligence to seek GOD to REVEAL...

Some shall seek for years and shall remain VEILED... as do the JEWS (YHVH's own people) remain, today...

ALL REVELATION is given by GOD, in HIS PROCESS of RECONCILING ALL things to Himself (which is already done), during the course of TIME...

GOD already IS (always Has Been, and always Will Be)... ALL in ALL... (not ALL in some as the "article writer" suggests)

But the manifestation of this wonder has yet to be completely REVEALED to us, and shall NOT occur, until TIME is expired...

Till then... the RELIGIOUS shall demote other viewpoints to ERROR, using ITSELF as the basis for that demotion...  :thumbdown:

Peace, my new brother Zach...  :HeartThrob: (by the way, that's my grandson's name!)

...Brother willieH  :Sparkletooth:

[grace_explosion]

 :icon_king:

[CHB]

Peace, my new brother Zach...   (by the way, that's my grandson's name!)

...Brother willieH 

Zachary is my grandson's name but everybody calls him Zach.

CHB

[grace_explosion]

 :bgdance:

[chuckt]

 Eric Landstrom  believes in UR, he just dosent know it yet, it eats at him, but he would have to give up alot, and change much on his web site, same with matt slick, deep down they both know ""eternal torment"" makes no sense.

They are brothers in Christ, and just as in the first three centuries were the two groups worshipped side by side and neither was considered ""heretic"" so it is today for US.

Eric has given me a personal banning from talking about ""hell"" and the word aion at carm.

i never signed up at carm to push UR but to plant seeds and talk about the word hell and the greek words it was translated from, but of coarse this always leeds to UR.


two scenerios for matt and eric, if they where too start teaching UR.

revival or exodus,  what would happen to all those who follow matt slick and lift him up if he announced at carm UR to be true?


wowza........enough...sorry

chuckt

[JamesH]

In the Book of Enoch there is, heos suntelesthê krima tou aionos ton aionon, "until the judgment of the eon of the eons may be accomplished." 

Sorry to bump up an old post but does anyone know what chapter and verse of Enoch this came from?

[WhiteWings]

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=338

[darryl]

Eric Landstrom  believes in UR, he just dosent know it yet, it eats at him, but he would have to give up alot, and change much on his web site, same with matt slick, deep down they both know ""eternal torment"" makes no sense.

They are brothers in Christ, and just as in the first three centuries were the two groups worshipped side by side and neither was considered ""heretic"" so it is today for US.

Eric has given me a personal banning from talking about ""hell"" and the word aion at carm.

i never signed up at carm to push UR but to plant seeds and talk about the word hell and the greek words it was translated from, but of coarse this always leeds to UR.


two scenerios for matt and eric, if they where too start teaching UR.

revival or exodus,  what would happen to all those who follow matt slick and lift him up if he announced at carm UR to be true?


wowza........enough...sorry

chuckt

the concept of 'eternal torment' is so senseless, awful, ridiculous and insane  it makes me physically sick to ponder it

[WhiteWings]

But at the same time doesn't it mean you must to help those who don't have your knowledge and reduce the slander of God?

[rosered]

But at the same time doesn't it mean you must to help those who don't have your knowledge and reduce the slander of God?

Amen   bro T .   :dsunny: :HeartThrob: :banana:

Love covers a multitude of sin /wrongs /guilt offerings /errors .   

1 Peter 4   But than are you actually Living for God's Glory  !


...7The end of all things is near.

Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so you can pray.

8 Above all, love one another deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

9 Show hospitality to one another without complaining.

  some have entertained angels unaware 

Hebrews 13 Brotherly Love


1Continue in brotherly love.

2Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers,

for by so doing some people have entertained angels without knowing it.

3Remember those in prison as if you were bound with them,

and those who are mistreated as if you were suffering with them....

  Most  just want to cut you off  and give the silent treatment , it is every where right now !!!

But we have to realize   the scriptures says every mouth will be stopped  as guilty under the law of  sin /death .

Only in Christ can one be risen from the dead ...   When you hear His voice , the voice of many waters  from above  , and  freely give the  One and the Same waters of Life as freely   as it was given to you ...   

Romans 3 There is No One Righteous
...18there is no fear of God before their eyes."

19Now we know that whatever the Law says, it says to those who are under the Law,

so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.

20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the Law. For the Law merely brings awareness of sin....

  :HeartThrob: :dsunny: :banana:

  clearly   it states we have bore the corrupt image of  the sinful nature under the law of mankind  ,  Only  the LORD  BE LIFTED UP  TO DRAW ALL UNTO HIMSELF   ...  as the sons of God will be hid in Christ  , till they be prepared to  come out of HiS SIDE  /her  true church as birthing the sons of God  by faith  , from  the  GLORIFIED BODY OF CHRIST ...

  9What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:

"There is no one righteous,

not even one;

11There is no one who understands;

no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away;

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.

13Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit;

the venom of vipers is on their lips;

14their mouths are full of cursing and of bitterness;

15their feet are swift to shed blood;

16ruin and misery lie in their wake;

17and the way of peace they have not known;

18there is no fear of God before their eyes."

  Then  will they  will spring forth   as bearing the incorruptible WORD OF LIFE  ,  the image of God though His one of a kind Son    , out of His belly will come the living waters of Life  freely , the voices from above  to glorify God ..
  Hid in Christ till   the truth  be setting  them  free ..

  He will not deny Himself /body  Her ,  the woman [true church  ,  mother of us all  ]  saved by   giving birth though child bearing     .

  ◄ 2 Timothy 2 ►

A Good Soldier of Christ Jesus

1You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus,

2and what you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses entrust to faithful men,a who will be able to teach others also.

3Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus.

4No soldier gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to please the one who enlisted him.


5An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

6It is the hard-working farmer who ought to have the first share of the crops.

7Think over what I say, for the Lord will give you understanding in everything.

8Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel,


9for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound!

10Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
12if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
13if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself.

A Worker Approved by God

14Remind them of these things, and charge them before Godb not to quarrel about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers.

15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved,a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

Born again of the incorruptible WORD OF GOD  , and By His own Spirit of Life   working in you ....   as children of the DAY  and Light of ther world ,   in Christs  body or out of the Body it is the   holy land  promised  of God    where all blessings  flow   ...    :HeartThrob:

[JamesH]

http://evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=338

Thanks WW!

[darryl]

In the Book of Enoch there is, heos suntelesthê krima tou aionos ton aionon, "until the judgment of the eon of the eons may be accomplished." 

Sorry to bump up an old post but does anyone know what chapter and verse of Enoch this came from?

talk about bumping up old posts !  you outdid me ! :laughing7:

[darryl]

But at the same time doesn't it mean you must to help those who don't have your knowledge and reduce the slander of God?

I do try to help them but there's only so much one man can do.I dont stress over it anymore like I used to...it'll all work out in the end..let go and let God. :dsunny:

[JamesH]

In the Book of Enoch there is, heos suntelesthê krima tou aionos ton aionon, "until the judgment of the eon of the eons may be accomplished." 

Sorry to bump up an old post but does anyone know what chapter and verse of Enoch this came from?

talk about bumping up old posts !  you outdid me ! :laughing7:

:thumbsup: