Is Marvin Vincent Contradicting Himself?

[JamesH]

Found this from Marvin Vincent's Word Studies on John 3:36

Here is John 3:36 in Greek-ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον

From Vincent's Word Studies:

Shall not see ( οὐκ ὄψεται )

Compare the future tense with the present "hath eternal life," and the simple life with the fully developed idea eternal life. He who believes is within the circle of the life of God, which is essentially eternal. His life "is hid with Christ in God." Life eternal is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. Hence, to such an one, eternal life is not merely something future. It is a present possession. He hath it. The unbelieving and disobedient, instead of having eternal life, shall not have life: shall not even see it (compare see the kingdom of God, John 3:3). He shall have no perception of life simply considered, much less of eternal life, the full and complex development of life.

And from this article - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/aionole.htm

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios.

Sounds like he's contradicting himself. In John 3:36 he's calling zoe aionios(ζωην αιωνιον)eternal but in the article he's not. Is he contradicting himself?

[rosered]

  We know the  free gift of eternal Life is a  gift of God though Jesus Christ ,,, 

and all   this knowledge will cease because  everyone will KNOW HIM  THE TRUTH  ,   and the truth is  setting us free  ,

every eye will see Him ,even those whom they pierced Him 

REV  1 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him — even those who pierced Him.

And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him.

So shall it be! Amen.


8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come—the Almighty....

You cannot  say the scriptures lie  :eek:and HIS WORD  AND VOIVE WILL BE HEARD  AND THEY WILL LIVE   this applies to all time and peoples

GODS WORD is perpetual never ending or changing.


"deep caves in perpetual darkness"
synonyms:   everlasting, never-ending, eternal, permanent, unending, endless, without end, lasting, long-lasting, constant, abiding, enduring, perennial, timeless, ageless, deathless, undying, immortal; More
2.
occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.
"their perpetual money worries"
synonyms:   interminable, incessant, ceaseless, endless, without respite, relentless, unrelenting, persistent, continual, continuous, nonstop, never-ending, recurrent, repeated, unremitting, sustained, around/round-the-clock, chronic, unabating; informal eternal

It is a  true  witness to us all , over and over and over again .

  The flesh is a flower that withers  in its time , but we are not just flesh and blood that  never was intended  to live eternally in this condition   , we are spirit beings  created by GOD  and in HIS own Image   
  this part never dies      but is  in Gods nature   , descriptive  of being a consuming Fire    and God is Love and God is Spirit   

   HOLY SPIRIT and fire  keeps pure and Holy everything within it  and sustained by a LOVE that is greater than any human effort    , human love  is conditional   ,  we love what we love   within ourselves and  reject   by judging  what we consider right and  wrong , but Gods love is  unconditional in the sense of He is no respecter of persons    as humans  choose to love and hate , look at the marriages though out the ages  that  once loved and than hated .. Gods love is  proof   he loves His enemies

  no human [carnal minded ] does this ...  they love what they love and hate what they hate    , God promise to make all his enemies a footstool , but heaven is His throne ...   The Lord will and does save  though the Lord Jesus  Christ  , His love covers  everything  , though by faith now we believe Him , but all will know     


"The LORD said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet'" (Psalm 110:1)

This passage is quoted in Matthew 22:42; Mark 12:36; Luke 20:43, Acts 2:35; 1 Corinthians 15:22-28; and Hebrews 1:13 and 10:13.

The feet is a wonderful study Mary sit as His feet and learned of HIM  Strong's G4228 - pous
πούς
Transliteration

pous

Pronunciation

pü's (Key)


Part of Speech

masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)

A primary word

TDNT Reference

6:624,925

Vines

View Entry

Outline of Biblical Usage
a foot, both of men or beast

often in the orient, one put his foot on vanquished

of disciples listening to their teacher's instruction are said to be at his feet

His judgments are in the earth  and we will learn righteousness  though Him , eventually everyone will  come to the knowledge of the truth  and be set free
  GOD promises this ..

  Those that are blind will see and those that  say the see will be  made blind , if you were blind you would have no sin ,,  but because you say you see your error , missing   the mark remains    ,     the  last Day is the Day of the Lord and that is how it will be done  in that Day     ...   we can mark these words  as True    The 1000 year reign of Christ  is rest  from any wicked works  and the restoration of all things made by Gods  healing   the blind so everyone will SEE HIM and Glorify God ,,, with thanksgiving and praise   
God took care of all this from the beginning  but we must wait on the Lord and have patience  in His perfect will ..each in their own order    GOD will be all in All .. 

[marie glen]

Amen!!  :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

I didn't know the verse about "all things made His footstool" is repeated 7 times! Wow..  :banana:

I've come to the conclusion about teachings and doctrines, that they have to line up with His character and attributes. To not consider this - concerning unending torment and agony - is just plain silly.

If a doctrine totally ignores the attributes of the Heavenly Father, there has to be something wrong with the doctrine, and not wrong with the Father.

I have a friend who believes in the gap theory about Genesis. That God did this all before, but without the intervention. And thus the world was "empty and dark" and a chaos.

Which it's easy to see the valuable lesson that would be, but there's one all important thing to consider. If it's true, God could not bear to lose all those persons, and they too would rise in the second resurrection, the resurrection of those not yet saved during this oh so brief lifetime. Because "God" (the All-mighty) "is Love."

And there is no 'failure' in His corner! If something we/someone is thinking doesn't line up with His attributes and character, it must be wrong. And it cannot be a part of His word(s). And we are sure to find the proof in His Word(s). And I don't care what anyone says, losing 3/4's of all humans He created, to unending torment and agony - or losing altogether - has to come under the heading of at least limited failure!

So false doctrine and belief, I'm thinking, can't help but contradict itself. And it contradicts Him, and His words, because His "Word is Truth" and error contradicts.

That was a very good lesson about aionios! Thanks! :thumbsup:

[rosered]

  Amen sister Marie   !! :HeartThrob:   great thoughts   and  so agree   with you !!! 

  I am now seeing many scriptures connect to the others explaining in greater detail   and conveying   a clearer Truth ,


That has been  somthing I have been begging the Lord for   for years Lord please make   your Word crystal clear Jesus ,

and may we be able to make them clearer to others  by  bonding  and sharing  and caring   though love this  Word of Life !!


   It  is a blessing  of Gods amazing grace poured out to us all  for sure ... 


  You know how bad I struggled to be clear  for many years   sis ,  :sigh:

GOD IS SOOOOOOOOOO   AWESOME !! :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

I've come to the conclusion about teachings and doctrines, that they have to line up with His character and attributes ....

If a doctrine totally ignores the attributes of the Heavenly Father, there has to be something wrong with the doctrine, and not wrong with the Father.

:thumbsup: :iagree: Great post MG and Rose

If any part of the written word and especially His Living Word, Christ Himself, is not taken within the context of Love, we miss the mark

[jugghead]

Found this from Marvin Vincent's Word Studies on John 3:36

Here is John 3:36 in Greek-ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον

From Vincent's Word Studies:

Shall not see ( οὐκ ὄψεται )

Compare the future tense with the present "hath eternal life," and the simple life with the fully developed idea eternal life. He who believes is within the circle of the life of God, which is essentially eternal. His life "is hid with Christ in God." Life eternal is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. Hence, to such an one, eternal life is not merely something future. It is a present possession. He hath it. The unbelieving and disobedient, instead of having eternal life, shall not have life: shall not even see it (compare see the kingdom of God, John 3:3). He shall have no perception of life simply considered, much less of eternal life, the full and complex development of life.

And from this article - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/aionole.htm

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios.

Sounds like he's contradicting himself. In John 3:36 he's calling zoe aionios(ζωην αιωνιον)eternal but in the article he's not. Is he contradicting himself?

And yes I agree with he is contradicting himself ....... because in what he says, he is taking, what he calls unbelievers, out of the present tense context putting them in a future tense while at the same time believers remain in the present tense, the contradiction is in what I highlighted.

the term "shall not see" is referencing the truth that they have eternal life but don't see it, but just because they don't see it does not mean they don't have it .... it is equivalent to telling someone they have not been given physical life despite the fact that they have

and he himself is blind to his own contradiction, which I am surprised he didn't see it

mankind has been given eternal life (defined as life having the attribute of being eternal) by the death of Christ on the cross (we preach Christ crucified) and that is what the majority of mankind is blind to (shall not see, shall not see in the present tense)

[JamesH]

Found this from Marvin Vincent's Word Studies on John 3:36

Here is John 3:36 in Greek-ο πιστευων εις τον υιον εχει ζωην αιωνιον ο δε απειθων τω υιω ουκ οψεται ζωην αλλ η οργη του θεου μενει επ αυτον

From Vincent's Word Studies:

Shall not see ( οὐκ ὄψεται )

Compare the future tense with the present "hath eternal life," and the simple life with the fully developed idea eternal life. He who believes is within the circle of the life of God, which is essentially eternal. His life "is hid with Christ in God." Life eternal is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. Hence, to such an one, eternal life is not merely something future. It is a present possession. He hath it. The unbelieving and disobedient, instead of having eternal life, shall not have life: shall not even see it (compare see the kingdom of God, John 3:3). He shall have no perception of life simply considered, much less of eternal life, the full and complex development of life.

And from this article - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/aionole.htm

Zoe aionios eternal life, which occurs 42 times in N. T., but not in LXX, is not endless life, but life pertaining to a certain age or aeon, or continuing during that aeon. I repeat, life may be endless. The life in union with Christ is endless, but the fact is not expressed by aionios.

Sounds like he's contradicting himself. In John 3:36 he's calling zoe aionios(ζωην αιωνιον)eternal but in the article he's not. Is he contradicting himself?

And yes I agree with he is contradicting himself ....... because in what he says, he is taking, what he calls unbelievers, out of the present tense context putting them in a future tense while at the same time believers remain in the present tense, the contradiction is in what I highlighted.

the term "shall not see" is referencing the truth that they have eternal life but don't see it, but just because they don't see it does not mean they don't have it .... it is equivalent to telling someone they have not been given physical life despite the fact that they have

and he himself is blind to his own contradiction, which I am surprised he didn't see it

mankind has been given eternal life (defined as life having the attribute of being eternal) by the death of Christ on the cross (we preach Christ crucified) and that is what the majority of mankind is blind to (shall not see, shall not see in the present tense)

I wonder why he did that? Maybe:

1.He already proclaimed that aionios is age pertaining life and so for the sake of argument he put eternal as not to either repeat himself or that the audience reading it would already know that it's age pertaining life.
2.The publisher edited it in on purpose as to retain the ECT belief and make it seem that he is contradicting himself(unlikely but if there was an agenda it's in the realm of possibility).
3.He wasn't paying attention to what he was writing at the time he wrote that. Either he wasn't thinking clearly due to fatigue,etc or he just wasn't plainly paying attention and didn't catch the contradiction.
4.Something else.

[marie glen]

And yes I agree with he is contradicting himself ....... because in what he says, he is taking, what he calls unbelievers, out of the present tense context putting them in a future tense while at the same time believers remain in the present tense

Amen.. that's it!

....Either he wasn't thinking clearly due to fatigue,etc or he just wasn't plainly paying attention and didn't catch the contradiction.

That's my vote, or that is, perception. I mean, the whole Et concept is so highly contradictory.. So, to me, contradiction seems to be pretty prevalent.. and unnoticed. :dontknow: :faint:

[WhiteWings]

After years I found this topic :-)

Sounds like he's contradicting himself. In John 3:36 he's calling zoe aionios(ζωην αιωνιον)eternal but in the article he's not. Is he contradicting himself?

The answer is: Depends on what he is trying to say.

Just like its Hebrew counterpart, it makes a huge difference if is used as a noun or adjective.
If used as a noun it never can have the meaning of everlasting because that's simply not what the word means.
If used as an adjective it's never about time of any duration, but about source/quality/etc.

UR scholars have two views on Matt 24:46.
1. If it's a noun then it speaks about a limited duration.
2. If it's an adjective it speaks about Who gives the life and punishment.

1.
Let's assume that duration is exactly 1 year.
That year will be a year of punishment for the wicked, followed by endless good times.
That year will be a year of good times for the saints, followed by more endless good times.
But the time after that 1 year is nowhere mentioned in that verse.

2.
The meaning of the verse has no time component of any type in it. It simply says:
All the good stuff originates from God.
All the correction originates from God.
So perhaps because no duration is mentioned it can mean both the good and bad are everlasting?
No.
The reason is simple. The verse speaks about correction. Not vengeance, torture or whatever.
Correction is by nature with an end. Correction that never ends fails to reach its intended goal, turning the wicked into saints.
Because God never fails, His correction won't fail, and because His correction is successful it ends after a while.

I hope I've explained it clearly. It's not very hard thing to grasp, but a small misunderstanding or unclear explanation makes it sound like a contradiction.

[WhiteWings]

I think there are 3 relevant 'ages' left in God's Plan.

1.
The current age. Here on earth. Before Christ's 1000 year reign. Etc.

2.
The final 'age', which is 100% endless
1Cor 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued to him, then shall the Son also himself be subject to him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Personally I think only this age is 'heaven' in its more pure and utterly perfect form.

3.
Let's call this an age of transition.
Christ rules.
Saints die and move directly to the good after-life.
Wicked die and get afterlife correction.
Wicked become saints and move to the good after-life.
Don't ask me for any type of proof because I've zero; but I think this very happy after-life is still not the full-blown totally maxed out happiness found in all-in-all described under 2.

[Ross]

3.
Let's call this an age of transition.
Christ rules.
Saints die and move directly to the good after-life.
Wicked die and get afterlife correction.
Wicked become saints and move to the good after-life.
Don't ask me for any type of proof because I've zero; but I think this very happy after-life is still not the full-blown totally maxed out happiness found in all-in-all described under 2.

Interesting verses in Revelation 20;11-15 "  And I saw a Great White throne, and Him Who is sitting on it, from Whose face the earth
                                                                and heaven did flee away and place was not found for them;
                                                                 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God and scrolls were opened,
                                                                and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life,
                                                                and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls- according to their works;
                                                                and the sea gave up the dead in it,
                                                                and the death and hades did give up the dead in them,
                                                                and they were judged according to their works;;

                                                                and the death and hades were cast into the lake of the fire- this is the second death;

                                                                and if anyone  was not written in the scroll of life he was cast into the lake of fire."'

Then  there is the new heavens and earth for the first aheaven and earth  have  passed away  and the sea .

This seems to be an  unlimited timeeeriodbefore the new heaven and earth..


Interesting theat his keyboard is playing up and is effecting th e words and lettering; could be an attempt of the enemy to not let this truth be stated

[Ross]

Then  there is the new heavens and earth for the first aheaven and earth  have  passed away  and the sea .

This seems to be an  unlimited timeeeriodbefore the new heaven and earth..


Interesting theat his keyboard is playing up and is effecting th e words and lettering; could be an attempt of the enemy to not let this truth be stated

Then there is the new heavens and earth for the first heaven and earth have passed away, and the sea.

This seems to be an unlimited time period before the new heaven and earth.

Actually working better now, this keyboard.
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that this unlimited time is after the 1000 years; and seems to be the correction and development before the new heaven and earth are established.
So the correction of the people not involved in the first resurrection will be during this period of judgment/correction/development/growth.
Then the new heaven and earth where every tear is wiped away and death no longer applies.

[darryl]

After years I found this topic :-)

Sounds like he's contradicting himself. In John 3:36 he's calling zoe aionios(ζωην αιωνιον)eternal but in the article he's not. Is he contradicting himself?

The answer is: Depends on what he is trying to say.

Just like its Hebrew counterpart, it makes a huge difference if is used as a noun or adjective.
If used as a noun it never can have the meaning of everlasting because that's simply not what the word means.
If used as an adjective it's never about time of any duration, but about source/quality/etc.

UR scholars have two views on Matt 24:46.
1. If it's a noun then it speaks about a limited duration.
2. If it's an adjective it speaks about Who gives the life and punishment.

1.
Let's assume that duration is exactly 1 year.
That year will be a year of punishment for the wicked, followed by endless good times.
That year will be a year of good times for the saints, followed by more endless good times.
But the time after that 1 year is nowhere mentioned in that verse.

2.
The meaning of the verse has no time component of any type in it. It simply says:
All the good stuff originates from God.
All the correction originates from God.
So perhaps because no duration is mentioned it can mean both the good and bad are everlasting?
No.
The reason is simple. The verse speaks about correction. Not vengeance, torture or whatever.
Correction is by nature with an end. Correction that never ends fails to reach its intended goal, turning the wicked into saints.
Because God never fails, His correction won't fail, and because His correction is successful it ends after a while.

I hope I've explained it clearly. It's not very hard thing to grasp, but a small misunderstanding or unclear explanation makes it sound like a contradiction.

well done !...ty !