Salvation by faith alone

[jugghead]

MrsOzera ..... if I may be so bold to ask, "What do you think the purpose of life is?" or is that a question that you are still seeking a firm answer to?

[MrsOzera]

...salvation is by ... faith alone ...

Maybe that's right. Maybe it's not  :laugh:
It greatly (totally) depends on how you define faith and salvation.

Just believing 'Jesus was/is a good Man' isn't enough.
In the western mind faith is a thought, a feeling, etc.
Same in Hebrew PLUS acting on it.

"Faith without works is dead."

And when you think about it's very obvious.
I believe Jesus was right claiming murder is bad; but I'm a serial killer.
I believe Jesus was right claiming stealing is bad; but I'm a bankrobber.

Agreed! I don't believe just intellect or knowledge is enough. I believe it's trusting God and accepting His gift of life by faith. I think faith is the way we do that. There are so many people who say that "Jesus was a great historical guy but beyond that nothing". They have a "good" outlook on Him, yet don't trust in Him and don't have faith in the Gospel, so they are not saved

[MrsOzera]

MrsOzera ..... if I may be so bold to ask, "What do you think the purpose of life is?" or is that a question that you are still seeking a firm answer to?

Well, from what I understand (from the Bible and other), the meaning of life is to have a relationship with the only living God, to be in His family, called a son or daughter. Our purpose is also to live peacefully and sinlessly on Earth and have loving relationships with fellow humans and to be one big family. It's bringing the perfect Kingdom which God intended for us to Earth now. This Kingdom is filled with love, happiness, hope, faith, joy and pleasures and delights. I also believe that we are not to strive to our own salvation or get saved by what we do (or don't do) but rather live under the grace and mercy of God and the gift He provides and then out of that love and gratefulness (as well as by having the Spirit of the living God within us) pouring out godly fruits and love to everyone and everything in Creation.

[MusicLover123]

...salvation is by ... faith alone ...

Maybe that's right. Maybe it's not  :laugh:
It greatly (totally) depends on how you define faith and salvation.

Just believing 'Jesus was/is a good Man' isn't enough.
In the western mind faith is a thought, a feeling, etc.
Same in Hebrew PLUS acting on it.

"Faith without works is dead."

And when you think about it's very obvious.
I believe Jesus was right claiming murder is bad; but I'm a serial killer.
I believe Jesus was right claiming stealing is bad; but I'm a bankrobber.

Agreed! I don't believe just intellect or knowledge is enough. I believe it's trusting God and accepting His gift of life by faith. I think faith is the way we do that. There are so many people who say that "Jesus was a great historical guy but beyond that nothing". They have a "good" outlook on Him, yet don't trust in Him and don't have faith in the Gospel, so they are not saved

Sorry to abruptly say this, but this came to my mind when reading your comment. I would say that there is a difference between "head" knowledge and "heart" knowledge. Knowing of something and knowing something. You could tell my your knowledge of a certain subject, for example cars. But if you act upon it with no "intimacy" or care in that subject, I do not think that would be doing that personally. It would basically be acting like a robot. Now, if I could tell you passionately about cars, with great enthusiasm and precision, I think that would be "heart" knowledge. I think in the same way, just look at some textual critics of Biblical manuscripts. They could tell you all there is to know about the Old and New Testament(In a certain sense, at least.) They do not know God, they only know of him.

I do agree with you that this earth will be our home in our glorified bodies. In 2 Corinthians 5:17, it explains how anyone in Christ becomes a new creature, and has become new as the old things pass away. I think that God Renews and Restores, not Destroys and Replaces. (Just for clarification, I mean destroy as in an annihilation sense. I do understand that God uses fire to refine people to purify them, like in Zechariah 13:9)

Well, from what I understand (from the Bible and other), the meaning of life is to have a relationship with the only living God, to be in His family, called a son or daughter. Our purpose is also to live peacefully and sinlessly on Earth and have loving relationships with fellow humans and to be one big family. It's bringing the perfect Kingdom which God intended for us to Earth now. This Kingdom is filled with love, happiness, hope, faith, joy and pleasures and delights. I also believe that we are not to strive to our own salvation or get saved by what we do (or don't do) but rather live under the grace and mercy of God and the gift He provides and then out of that love and gratefulness (as well as by having the Spirit of the living God within us) pouring out godly fruits and love to everyone and everything in Creation.

:iagree:
To add to this, I also would like to add that this life is to learn good from evil, and to know that without Him you are nothing and that you do not have life, and not some kind of test that very few will pass and get the right answer to. I also am thinking of this scenario, and hopefully it will be somewhat relevant to this discussion. Let us imagine a Father wanted to teach his children how to swim. One day he decides to put them in a swimming pool as a test. He tells them to only stay in the shallow end, but that they shall not go into the deep end of the pool. The Father says "Drowning thou dost drown." So, the children decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool. This is until the neighbor kid shows up. He calls to the youngest and says " Drowning, ye do not drown." So, the littlest one swims to the deep end of the pool. At first, he is swimming pretty well! He then calls over his siblings, and they partake in this as well. Suddenly, they start to lose their balance in the water, and start to drown, just as their Father had told them. Then, the Father shows up, and he stops for a moment. He is not sure whether to save His children from drowning or not. He thought to himself, I put them in this situation in the first place, in order to show them that they have to rely on me to act. They may grow older and learn how to swim more independently, but they will learn to rely on their Father, no matter how much maturity and independence they gain. Some people might say, "Well, the Father gave them the freedom to swim in the pool. He may have known the end result, and put them there in the first place as a lesson. But, what if they want to drown? Surely their will is stronger than the Father's?" Others might say "Well, the Father has all the power in the world, and surely nothing is stopping Him from saving them from drowning, not even His children's will. But, we surely believe that He can do whatever He wants! We believe He does not love all of His children. He does not have to save anyone from the pool, and even if he saves just one of them, that will truly show how much He cares for His children." Still, another group might say, "The Father has imagined all possibilities on how His children might act once they are put in the pool. Surely, he wanted His children to come to Him freely, and not forced to do it! That is why he chose to do it on this specific day, and in these specific weather conditions, that some of His children might come to Him freely. But alas! He could not make it where all of His children could do that! That would be preposterous on the child!" But, remember listeners, the Father would not want any harm done to His children. And, even if any harm is done, it would be allowed to teach them on what to do and what not to do. Also, listeners, the Father's main essence is love. He loves them so much that He would save them from drowning. Not only some of His children, but all of them. Some in this hour, and the rest in the next. Most will say "But, the Father is also just! His children were disobedient! He should let them drown for what they have done!" But lastly, remember listeners, the Father does everything in love. He corrects His children because He loves them. If that were true, you would hear the Father call His essence Justice, and not Love.

Well, that's enough of that story. I was basically writing what came to me on the spot, lol. Let me know what you think of it.

Blessings  :dsunny:

[Ross]

The Father's main essence is love. He loves them so much that He would save them from drowning. Not only some of His children, but all of them. Some in this hour, and the rest in the next.

Amen!
History reeks of man trying to define God.
From a limited perspective the "experts" claim insights into why we are here.
1 Cor 15 has much about the gospel, the process, explains the differing kinds of glory.
One of those key points tells how the flesh had to happen before the spirit, hence the first Adam before the second-Christ- so that the process is explicit and planned to perfection.
Paul points out to the Colossians about the whole wisdom is "In Christ"[Col 2;3].
Paul says to the Philippians that "He has no confidence in the flesh- and true circumcision is worshipping in spirit of God [Phil 3;3'

All seems to back up the predestination where only some are chosen to learn this info in 'This Age". The rest in the ages to come.
Christ Himself says ' My kingdom is NOT of this age."
Without the promise of glory to come exceeding the glory of this age there is much fear and doubt.
I used to be in that bondage whilst attending church. Trying to earn my salvation when the reality is Christ gave that for me and the world each in their appointed time.
The illustration of family and Father is brilliant.
What father does not discipline his child trying to make them better?
Our heavenly Father works through all that and cannot fail.

[jugghead]

and then there is the power of resurrection .....

even if He lets them drown, He brings them back to life and asks "Why didn't you believe me when I said you would die?"

[MrsOzera]

To add to this, I also would like to add that this life is to learn good from evil, and to know that without Him you are nothing and that you do not have life, and not some kind of test that very few will pass and get the right answer to. I also am thinking of this scenario, and hopefully it will be somewhat relevant to this discussion. Let us imagine a Father wanted to teach his children how to swim. One day he decides to put them in a swimming pool as a test. He tells them to only stay in the shallow end, but that they shall not go into the deep end of the pool. The Father says "Drowning thou dost drown." So, the children decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool. This is until the neighbor kid shows up. He calls to the youngest and says " Drowning, ye do not drown." So, the littlest one swims to the deep end of the pool. At first, he is swimming pretty well! He then calls over his siblings, and they partake in this as well. Suddenly, they start to lose their balance in the water, and start to drown, just as their Father had told them. Then, the Father shows up, and he stops for a moment. He is not sure whether to save His children from drowning or not. He thought to himself, I put them in this situation in the first place, in order to show them that they have to rely on me to act. They may grow older and learn how to swim more independently, but they will learn to rely on their Father, no matter how much maturity and independence they gain. Some people might say, "Well, the Father gave them the freedom to swim in the pool. He may have known the end result, and put them there in the first place as a lesson. But, what if they want to drown? Surely their will is stronger than the Father's?" Others might say "Well, the Father has all the power in the world, and surely nothing is stopping Him from saving them from drowning, not even His children's will. But, we surely believe that He can do whatever He wants! We believe He does not love all of His children. He does not have to save anyone from the pool, and even if he saves just one of them, that will truly show how much He cares for His children." Still, another group might say, "The Father has imagined all possibilities on how His children might act once they are put in the pool. Surely, he wanted His children to come to Him freely, and not forced to do it! That is why he chose to do it on this specific day, and in these specific weather conditions, that some of His children might come to Him freely. But alas! He could not make it where all of His children could do that! That would be preposterous on the child!" But, remember listeners, the Father would not want any harm done to His children. And, even if any harm is done, it would be allowed to teach them on what to do and what not to do. Also, listeners, the Father's main essence is love. He loves them so much that He would save them from drowning. Not only some of His children, but all of them. Some in this hour, and the rest in the next. Most will say "But, the Father is also just! His children were disobedient! He should let them drown for what they have done!" But lastly, remember listeners, the Father does everything in love. He corrects His children because He loves them. If that were true, you would hear the Father call His essence Justice, and not Love.

Well, that's enough of that story. I was basically writing what came to me on the spot, lol. Let me know what you think of it.

Blessings  :dsunny:

I love it! Great analogy and really well told. It also shows the ridiculousness of people's claims who say that God doesn't want to save everyone or that He should just let them drown for their mistakes. Like yeah, they might suffer for their consequences but His heart will never change.

[MusicLover123]

I love it! Great analogy and really well told. It also shows the ridiculousness of people's claims who say that God doesn't want to save everyone or that He should just let them drown for their mistakes. Like yeah, they might suffer for their consequences but His heart will never change.

Thank you! I don't think that story is anything too spectacular, but I appreciate your compliments.

Based on what jugghead says here...

and then there is the power of resurrection .....

even if He lets them drown, He brings them back to life and asks "Why didn't you believe me when I said you would die?"

I realized I forgot to write in about ressurection. So, thanks for the reminder  :declare:

I was thinking I could make a lifeguard as Jesus who the Father would send to save people and resuscitate them, the Law being a deflated lifejacket, the Law of Christ being air for the lifejackets, New Heavens and New Earth being the ability to breathe underwater( snorkel's?) and other silly ideas like that. If I really wanted to, I could write up something in this fashion for each book of the Bible!  :laughing7:

It would be great to to I think, as I'm reading through Scripture fully the first time.  :eek:

Surprising, isn't it? When I was younger we used to go to a Methodist church. Around a bit after we went there, we suddenly stopped going. I used to see it as a curse, but now I thank God for that as I wasn't indoctrinated from them with false doctrines aa much as others.

Blessings, and I hope to see more of you guys soon  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

Agreed! I don't believe just intellect or knowledge is enough. I believe it's trusting God and accepting His gift of life by faith. I think faith is the way we do that. There are so many people who say that "Jesus was a great historical guy but beyond that nothing". They have a "good" outlook on Him, yet don't trust in Him and don't have faith in the Gospel, so they are not saved

Amen! Jesus said "follow Me"...  If we believe we will follow.. and, there will be what we might call evidence.. which is changes in one's life and character (which I believe is included in the meaning of the word "works" - the english not quite getting it.. as the english is understood more as labor, etc. And we may indeed do labor, what with being His servants.. but that actually is fruit? The more we "abide in Him" the better the fruit?? Main fruit being Love within which the other fruits are..

I know one thing.. it's infinitely easier to "love" with Jesus being our Lord and in our heart, than it ever was previous to that! And that is the change I look for most.. It being the foundation of so much other.. I believe James was saying, show me your faith by the evidence.. (not as labor to earn salvation! as if God would 'owe' us our salvation! :faint: )

Well, from what I understand (from the Bible and other), the meaning of life is to have a relationship with the only living God, to be in His family, called a son or daughter. Our purpose is also to live peacefully and sinlessly on Earth and have loving relationships with fellow humans and to be one big family. It's bringing the perfect Kingdom which God intended for us to Earth now. This Kingdom is filled with love, happiness, hope, faith, joy and pleasures and delights. I also believe that we are not to strive to our own salvation or get saved by what we do (or don't do) but rather live under the grace and mercy of God and the gift He provides and then out of that love and gratefulness (as well as by having the Spirit of the living God within us) pouring out godly fruits and love to everyone and everything in Creation.

I love that! :thumbsup: :banana:

I do agree with you that this earth will be our home in our glorified bodies. In 2 Corinthians 5:17, it explains how anyone in Christ becomes a new creature, and has become new as the old things pass away. I think that God Renews and Restores, not Destroys and Replaces. (Just for clarification, I mean destroy as in an annihilation sense. I do understand that God uses fire to refine people to purify them, like in Zechariah 13:9)

Amen! :thumbsup: In earthly life, as 'judgment' of our sins - and of rulers who rob widows and orphans, etc, He brings them to ruin (destruction) in an earthly sense (via results, consequences?).. but not in a 'everafter' sense, which so many have run with -- run with further than the actual words used mean..

The Father's main essence is love. He loves them so much that He would save them from drowning. Not only some of His children, but all of them. Some in this hour, and the rest in the next.

Amen!! I loved your pool analogy! You would (almost) think all believers would see such logic.. rather than the strange logic the partial good news serves up..

each in their appointed time.
The illustration of family and Father is brilliant.
What father does not discipline his child trying to make them better?
Our heavenly Father works through all that and cannot fail.

Amen! Jesus' open revelation of the LORD Almighty, as also "Father" makes a world of difference!

and then there is the power of resurrection .....

even if He lets them drown, He brings them back to life and asks "Why didn't you believe me when I said you would die?"

Amen! I try to tell questioners, if I come across them, that very thing! You know, the question of how could He let death, suffering, etc, happen.. I guess I've come to the conclusion in my own heart, that the only way to avoid all that, is if He never, ever endowed rationality, reasoning and pondering ability, to any creatures.. ever. :dontknow: that's what seems logical to me, both in life and in His Word..
      :Peace2:

..what a great discussion..

[marie glen]

When I was younger we used to go to a Methodist church. Around a bit after we went there, we suddenly stopped going. I used to see it as a curse, but now I thank God for that as I wasn't indoctrinated from them with false doctrines aa much as others.

    We have that in common! I used to feel a bit 'bad' that I couldn't seem to get myself to 'go to church' (inner troubles with authority figures? and also things of the churches that just didn't jive with me) ...and over the years have studied on my own.. Being a housewife and house gramma, I've had times when I could spend a lot of time in study and prayerful pondering of those studies (His Word) not having to be in what I call the rat race, a lot.. And now, for some time now, I've been thankful for my spiritual hermit(ing)! (And lack of false indoctrination.) :thumbsup: :gsmile: