Salvation by faith alone

[MrsOzera]

Hello everyone :)

I'm new to this forum, and slightly new to UR (I've been studying it for about 6 months by now). I wasn't sure which discussion board to post these questions on, so I thought I'd put them here :dontknow:

Over the months of studying Universalism, I've come across a lot of people who believe that eternal life (or aeonian life) has to be achieved, as in, it seems to be quite common (in the UR circles) for people to believe a form of lordship salvation.

I'm a huge free-grace girl, who strongly believes salvation is by grace alone through faith alone and only with faith are we born again and justified and also generally a bit anxious and there are many people who claim that because the early church taught salvation by faith plus works, we should too. This has kind of been disconcerting in my opinion and I've kind of begun to lose assurance of my salvation. Are there any other people who have had similar experiences or who have gotten any specific revelations by God?

I understand that if all mankind will be saved, then no one needn't fear hell, but I just really want to live a life where I'm free of worrying and know that I don't have to fear Hades or any lake of fire or punishment of any sorts (chastisement and sanctification aside). I want to be assured that I can be justified and righteous. So far I've only really come to the conclusion that any doctrine or theology that teaches salvation is more than simply taking it by faith cannot bring assurance and makes me incredibly worried so :dontknow: :dontknow:

I'm sorry if my thread doesn't make much sense. I'm just kinda confused with everything at the moment. On the one hand I have this big GRACE ALONE feeling (which I hope is from God) and then on the other hand there are so many people who preach lordship salvation because of the early church writings, which they claim are closer the the Apostlistic writings. I'm unsure what to believe any more.... :dontknow: :dontknow:

[jabcat]

Welcome, and here's how I see it :).  I know of one denomination that has perhaps 7 "steps to salvation".   There are many various sorts of "must observe this, need to do that", besides "call[ing] upon the name of the Lord..."     It can indeed be confusing, and many are getting caught up in it and pushing it.  Mixing of law and grace.  The law was not destroyed, but rather fulfilled.  There's a difference.  It was a shadow of things to come, a tutor that brought us to SomeOne.  As you know, the "things to come" and Who we are brought to, is CHRIST.  What He accomplished on the cross, when he calls each one to Him, I believe must be sufficient.

   I believe any scriptures about works are not about salvation, i.e., moving from estrangement into being a child of God (John 1:12  Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God) but more about obedience as that child, and a result of the Spirit working through the believer.

Ephesians 2:8,9  for by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast   

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I believe His Spirit and grace bring us to Him (every knee will bow..) and then also keeps us (sealed by the Holy Spirit unto that day).  In the meantime, we grow in grace and knowledge, are brought into obedience and prompted to good works, but the initial drawing, saving, and then the keeping, IMO is all His work.  Or else we could boast - and we can't.  I Cor. 1:29 "..so that no one can boast before Him.."

Blessings.

[marie glen]

Amen! What Jabcat said.. :thumbsup:

Welcome, MrsOzera! So happy you are here at the tent! I consider myself a very lucky gal, in that most of my studying I have have done on my own, without a lot of guidance from the churches. I have come to think of the churches and other christian folk, as very good to fellowship with, but the authority is God's Word (alone).

I'm a little curious as to how the early church fathers could have predated the apostle's writings, that's a new one to me.. but I'm not a bit surprised, humans! We sure can come up with some doozies.. Unfortunately, as You've said, a lot of it causes a lot of confusion.. So happy I am to know about UR, and we can see it all over in His word..

I have a reading schedule I follow which has helped a lot in 'sealing' me into His word..
https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html - reading which follows closer to the order the scriptures were written.. a whole scenario emerges much sooner reading it that way.. Or that is to say, it flows and makes a lot of sense when read in the order of occurrence and writing.. Which I think helps, having the whole story thus revealed..

It's our only measurement.. that and fruits - the inward changes we have experienced and as love for our fellow person grows and grows.. I love Jesus' words "I am the vine.. abide IN Me" and we will produce much fruit, which as we know is love, joy, peace.. Not as though we are already perfected.. but we are in the process and progress..

I've seen 'fruit' of some of these 'lesser gospels and the love seems to wax a bit cold after a bit.. Because faith with works does produce within the child of God... "boasting" and feelings of superiority.. and judging.. and not merciful nor loving.. "We can tell something by its fruit".

Also, there are many veRy excellent writings and articles here on tentmaker dot org, that definitely help to point the way and cement the faith. :cloud9:

As we go along, we notice UR in God's word, written straight out and plain and also hugely implied also..

This thread, http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063 lists many UR verses.

God bless and welcome! I hope we will see you here often! :gsmile:

p.s. - one of my favorite verses is how "His salvation.. to the ends of the earth.." :Peace2:

[Dandelion]

I am a former Catholic, so I understand the 'works' issue.

This is how I see it, now.

Good works spring from God, in us.

We cannot generate good works to please God, but only to reflect God.

God is the first source of all goodness.

So works then, are important, in that they show others God, through us.

Matthew 5:

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Our good deeds reflect God, then help others to know Him.

They are not offered to Him, because our light is but a reflection of His light.

The Law has been fulfilled, not replaced, with the Law of ultimate Love.

My two-cents.

D.

[MrsOzera]

Welcome, and here's how I see it :).  I know of one denomination that has perhaps 7 "steps to salvation".   There are many various sorts of "must observe this, need to do that", besides "call[ing] upon the name of the Lord..."     It can indeed be confusing, and many are getting caught up in it and pushing it.  Mixing of law and grace.  The law was not destroyed, but rather fulfilled.  There's a difference.  It was a shadow of things to come, a tutor that brought us to SomeOne.  As you know, the "things to come" and Who we are brought to, is CHRIST.  What He accomplished on the cross, when he calls each one to Him, I believe must be sufficient.

   I believe any scriptures about works are not about salvation, i.e., moving from estrangement into being a child of God (John 1:12  Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God) but more about obedience as that child, and a result of the Spirit working through the believer.

Ephesians 2:8,9  for by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift, not of works, that no one may boast   

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

I believe His Spirit and grace bring us to Him (every knee will bow..) and then also keeps us (sealed by the Holy Spirit unto that day).  In the meantime, we grow in grace and knowledge, are brought into obedience and prompted to good works, but the initial drawing, saving, and then the keeping, IMO is all His work.  Or else we could boast - and we can't.  I Cor. 1:29 "..so that no one can boast before Him.."

Blessings.

Yes, absolutely true! :) I do believe that good works are the outward signs of having the Spirit of God living within us. It does also seem like most verses that talk about salvation from works are more about salvation from sin and hate rather than salvation to eternal life (which is given freely).

I don't really understand either how people can claim that the early church teachings somehow predate the Bible. I don't think they do teach that, but I think they do believe that if an early church father (from like 0-100AD) writes about salvation by works, then we should take it seriously, because they had more connections with people like Paul or people who still saw Jesus.

I don't really see a "7 steps to salvation" anymore. I don't see how anything we do can contribute to anything (even faith), so I think all we can do is have our eyes opened, and faith is the doorway to experiencing eternal life.

May I ask though, what are your thoughts on justification? Is a person justified and does a person receive the Holy Spirit the instant one trusts Jesus? Or are we all justified and given the Spirit, and faith is simply realizing the truth?

[MrsOzera]

Amen! What Jabcat said.. :thumbsup:

Welcome, MrsOzera! So happy you are here at the tent! I consider myself a very lucky gal, in that most of my studying I have have done on my own, without a lot of guidance from the churches. I have come to think of the churches and other christian folk, as very good to fellowship with, but the authority is God's Word (alone).

I'm a little curious as to how the early church fathers could have predated the apostle's writings, that's a new one to me.. but I'm not a bit surprised, humans! We sure can come up with some doozies.. Unfortunately, as You've said, a lot of it causes a lot of confusion.. So happy I am to know about UR, and we can see it all over in His word..

I have a reading schedule I follow which has helped a lot in 'sealing' me into His word..
https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html - reading which follows closer to the order the scriptures were written.. a whole scenario emerges much sooner reading it that way.. Or that is to say, it flows and makes a lot of sense when read in the order of occurrence and writing.. Which I think helps, having the whole story thus revealed..

It's our only measurement.. that and fruits - the inward changes we have experienced and as love for our fellow person grows and grows.. I love Jesus' words "I am the vine.. abide IN Me" and we will produce much fruit, which as we know is love, joy, peace.. Not as though we are already perfected.. but we are in the process and progress..

I've seen 'fruit' of some of these 'lesser gospels and the love seems to wax a bit cold after a bit.. Because faith with works does produce within the child of God... "boasting" and feelings of superiority.. and judging.. and not merciful nor loving.. "We can tell something by its fruit".

Also, there are many veRy excellent writings and articles here on tentmaker dot org, that definitely help to point the way and cement the faith. :cloud9:

As we go along, we notice UR in God's word, written straight out and plain and also hugely implied also..

This thread, http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/77-ultimate-reconciliation-and-renewal-scriptures/msg118063/#msg118063 lists many UR verses.

God bless and welcome! I hope we will see you here often! :gsmile:

p.s. - one of my favorite verses is how "His salvation.. to the ends of the earth.." :Peace2:

Thank you for your loving welcome :) I'm sure you'll see me on here often, probably with a lot of confused feelings and worries haha.

I have come to a point where I absolutely can't stand someone saying "we can see whether someone is saved by their fruit". I do believe salvation produces fruit, but the way these people use that quote is usually to point fingers about certain issues which are not salvation related like "ooh look, that person went to the bar yesterday, he's clearly not saved"  :sigh:

Blessings :HeartThrob:

[MrsOzera]

I am a former Catholic, so I understand the 'works' issue.

This is how I see it, now.

Good works spring from God, in us.

We cannot generate good works to please God, but only to reflect God.

God is the first source of all goodness.

So works then, are important, in that they show others God, through us.

Matthew 5:

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14"You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Our good deeds reflect God, then help others to know Him.

They are not offered to Him, because our light is but a reflection of His light.

The Law has been fulfilled, not replaced, with the Law of ultimate Love.

My two-cents.

D.

Thank you for your reply :) I would be really interested in hearing your story about why you're not a Catholic anymore, if you feel like sharing.

I believe most Catholics and Orthodox Christians see baptism as the way we get forgiveness of sins and that it's necessary for eternal life. That teaching has never sat right with me.

And yes, absolutely! Fruit is God working through us and showing God to others. That also means fruit can't be there until we have God within us, otherwise there wouldn't be a God to show :dontknow:

Blessings :)  :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

Welcome MrsOzera, it is always nice to see new faces (identities) in Christ.

The way that I understand "faith alone" is through the original meanings of the words, this word "faith" means persuasion, taken from the word that means "to convince"

We are saved by grace through being persuaded, convinced that we are ..... men will persuade us or try to convince us that we aren't because of what they see in the physical, but God sees the heart.

The word "faith" (I believe) is misunderstood by how men define it and in which direction it is focused, for example: having faith in someone, meaning you have faith that someone "will do" something because they made a promise ....... this kind of faith was for those before Christ came, to believe in the promise of who was to come

But now since we already have received the promise in the world ..... that "the Word became flesh" ..... it is now a matter of being "convinced" that the promise was fulfilled in Christ, which we know it was.

It is the promise of grace through "being convinced" ... "being persuaded" by His Spirit that we ARE saved by the Grace of God, in which Christ is that word "grace" that became flesh that walked among us, plus many other words, love, forgiveness, compassion, patience, gentleness, kindness etc.

And by us being convinced by the Spirit that is who Christ is, His character, the more we become those words ourselves.

When God convinces us of something, that in itself is the giving of His Spirit to us, freely given ..... in other words, the giving of His Spirit to us "IS" His convincing us.

To renew the mind in the understanding of faith is to see it's original meaning and direction, it is not something we have that is directed towards God, but rather what God has directed towards us ..... so that there is no boasting.

When it is all "HIS" work of grace in us through faith (being convinced) who are we to take the credit for anything, we are just the recipient of what He freely gives to all when it is our appointed to hear it.

My  :2c:

[MrsOzera]

Welcome MrsOzera, it is always nice to see new faces (identities) in Christ.

The way that I understand "faith alone" is through the original meanings of the words, this word "faith" means persuasion, taken from the word that means "to convince"

We are saved by grace through being persuaded, convinced that we are ..... men will persuade us or try to convince us that we aren't because of what they see in the physical, but God sees the heart.

The word "faith" (I believe) is misunderstood by how men define it and in which direction it is focused, for example: having faith in someone, meaning you have faith that someone "will do" something because they made a promise ....... this kind of faith was for those before Christ came, to believe in the promise of who was to come

But now since we already have received the promise in the world ..... that "the Word became flesh" ..... it is now a matter of being "convinced" that the promise was fulfilled in Christ, which we know it was.

It is the promise of grace through "being convinced" ... "being persuaded" by His Spirit that we ARE saved by the Grace of God, in which Christ is that word "grace" that became flesh that walked among us, plus many other words, love, forgiveness, compassion, patience, gentleness, kindness etc.

And by us being convinced by the Spirit that is who Christ is, His character, the more we become those words ourselves.

When God convinces us of something, that in itself is the giving of His Spirit to us, freely given ..... in other words, the giving of His Spirit to us "IS" His convincing us.

To renew the mind in the understanding of faith is to see it's original meaning and direction, it is not something we have that is directed towards God, but rather what God has directed towards us ..... so that there is no boasting.

When it is all "HIS" work of grace in us through faith (being convinced) who are we to take the credit for anything, we are just the recipient of what He freely gives to all when it is our appointed to hear it.

My  :2c:

Yes! I definitely agree with that :) Faith is trusting that what Jesus promised happened and receiving the gift freely given to us. I'm still looking into the entire premise of free will. I definitely believe we are involved in some way, that we can resist and reject, and yet that faith is also a gift. It's something I don't think any of us will fully understand.

I have however also heard the idea that the word "faith" (pistis, I believe) actually means "faithfulness" and that we are saved by being faithful (obedient). I'm not sure about anyone else, but that makes me really anxious :/

Do you believe that justification and the sealing of the Holy Spirit already happened for everyone, and that faith is the way we see it? Or do you believe that there is something (whether it's forensic justification, salvation, something supernatural) that happens when we have faith and trust? Most Protestants believe that then we receive the Holy Spirit. I don't really know what to believe about that at the moment. I definitely think the "they" vs. "us" mindset is dangerous and destructive, but on the other hand it seems to be that the Scriptures do make it clear that unbelievers are (right at this moment, not forever) separated from eternal life and are not justified. What are your thoughts on that?

Thanks for the reply by the way  :HeartThrob:

[jugghead]

I understand it in this way: Salvation by grace happened 2000 years ago for all of mankind at the cross, the difference in people is being convinced that it did for them also.

My view of an unbeliever is one who has not been convinced they are saved by grace, and that is where being convinced {faith} plays its part.

it is understanding that they are ..... they just don't "know" it yet, doubt is a strongman that has to be bound

I believe that all the physical healings that Christ did while He walked this earth were different steps of the process He brings us into, from the healing of the deaf, to the healing of the blind, to the healing of the lame and more...... each a work of grace in us by God through His Spirit so that we become the righteousness of the Father, in which Christ is THAT righteousness.

Blessings

[jabcat]

Do you believe that justification and the sealing of the Holy Spirit already happened for everyone, and that faith is the way we see it? Or do you believe that there is something (whether it's forensic justification, salvation, something supernatural) that happens when we have faith and trust?

I don't  believe it's in effect for everyone and that they just need to realize or believe it.  I believe that in scripture it's obviously an individual event that happens for each according to God's timing, direction, calling, and enabling. (see Paul and Silas and the jailor).   As Gary has also noted and I agree, I don't believe most are saved in this age.  In fact, many millions in this age have lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus or that He is the Savior.  So there will be a future time, in another age, when they are called and will kneel and confess (specific event of coming to salvation). 

Jesus' death on the cross reconciled God to man, but as Paul preached, we must be reconciled to God.  And "no man can come..unless the Spirit draws him".    I believe the ecclesia/called out ones in this age will be brought personally to Him now, the rest later.  Romans 8:29,30  For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.    That is very supernatural.  A re-birth.  Many like it "sweeter and kinder-sounding" than this, but the scriptures do say that it's a moving from child of the devil to a child of God.  (1 John 1:12, 3:10)        However, it's grace without our own merit, as God takes care of this.  He calls and enables, we respond.  The faith is not even ours, it is His that He gives us.  Otherwise, we could not approach Him.  He is the Potter, we are the clay.

Regarding your fear of personal salvation;  I have dealt with that for many years.  But stand on the Word, which says, "believe in your heart, confess with your mouth Jesus, and you will be saved..whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...sealed with the Holy Spirit unto that day...      It's the adversary's job to make us doubt and wander down destructive paths.  Jesus seeks and saves those that are lost - and keeps them with His seal upon them.  Blessings!

[MrsOzera]

I understand it in this way: Salvation by grace happened 2000 years ago for all of mankind at the cross, the difference in people is being convinced that it did for them also.

My view of an unbeliever is one who has not been convinced they are saved by grace, and that is where being convinced {faith} plays its part.

it is understanding that they are ..... they just don't "know" it yet, doubt is a strongman that has to be bound

I believe that all the physical healings that Christ did while He walked this earth were different steps of the process He brings us into, from the healing of the deaf, to the healing of the blind, to the healing of the lame and more...... each a work of grace in us by God through His Spirit so that we become the righteousness of the Father, in which Christ is THAT righteousness.

Blessings

Thanks for your insight :) Just another question to see whether I fully understand what you mean: so that means that you don't believe that any "supernatural" event takes place when someone comes to faith? As in, there is no difference between a believer and unbeliever in terms of justification, salvation, and being sealed by the Holy Spirit?

Many blessings xx

[MrsOzera]

Do you believe that justification and the sealing of the Holy Spirit already happened for everyone, and that faith is the way we see it? Or do you believe that there is something (whether it's forensic justification, salvation, something supernatural) that happens when we have faith and trust?

I don't  believe it's in effect for everyone and that they just need to realize or believe it.  I believe that in scripture it's obviously an individual event that happens for each according to God's timing, direction, calling, and enabling. (see Paul and Silas and the jailor).   As Gary has also noted and I agree, I don't believe most are saved in this age.  In fact, many millions in this age have lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus or that He is the Savior.  So there will be a future time, in another age, when they are called and will kneel and confess (specific event of coming to salvation). 

Jesus' death on the cross reconciled God to man, but as Paul preached, we must be reconciled to God.  And "no man can come..unless the Spirit draws him".    I believe the ecclesia/called out ones in this age will be brought personally to Him now, the rest later.  Romans 8:29,30  For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.    That is very supernatural.  A re-birth.  Many like it "sweeter and kinder-sounding" than this, but the scriptures do say that it's a moving from child of the devil to a child of God.  (1 John 1:12, 3:10)        However, it's grace without our own merit, as God takes care of this.  He calls and enables, we respond.  The faith is not even ours, it is His that He gives us.  Otherwise, we could not approach Him.  He is the Potter, we are the clay.

Regarding your fear of personal salvation;  I have dealt with that for many years.  But stand on the Word, which says, "believe in your heart, confess with your mouth Jesus, and you will be saved..whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved...sealed with the Holy Spirit unto that day...      It's the adversary's job to make us doubt and wander down destructive paths.  Jesus seeks and saves those that are lost - and keeps them with His seal upon them.  Blessings!

I have always struggled with the idea of predestination. That God foreknows everything I have no doubt about that (although Open Theism is still a fascinating subject to study), but I struggle with the idea of God choosing who gets the blessings in this age and in the millennial age. Although maybe all will be reconciled and saved in the end, that doesn't mean that unbelievers who do not come to faith now don't have a hard path (some refining hell or purifying until they believe) and it's hard for me to reconcile the idea that God wants to save everyone (now as well) and doesn't want anyone to suffer or be in pain with the idea that He also chooses who has a harder path and who gets to come into the Kingdom.

I also believe that freedom of choices seems to be an important part of Scripture, as well as there being many verses where God reprimands people for rejecting Him, it seems that there is some consent, choice and acceptance on our part, even though we would never come to Him if He wouldn't have drawn us. But to be honest, I really don't know much about that, I haven't looked into it that much. All I know is that Calvanism is quite a sad and ungodly theology which has led people to see God in an incredibly negative light.

[jabcat]

..choices..
I have always struggled with the idea of predestination.
All I know is that Calvanism is quite a sad and ungodly theology which has led people to see God in an incredibly negative light.

I agree choice is involved, I see submission as a big deal.  Still, God wins! :)     I never believed in election or predestination until later, having come into UR.  Ignored the scriptures about it and/or explained it away as "God knowing", but not "deciding".  The main way the verses, which are very clearly in the scriptures makes sense to me is, that God will reconcile all in the end.  I also believe the ecclesia called in this age are not called just for the kicks of it, but are called for an eternal purpose, which will serve to help the others coming in later.  Also, and this gets a little cloudy, but still interesting - is there's been some suggestions that there was some sort of "agreement" on our part when we were "just" spirit in the presence of God, to come to earth and play this "role" we're now playing.  I'm not sure about that, but I find it intriguing.  There has been visions reported of such.   :dontknow:   The scriptures also say God creates vessels of honor and dishonor, and it seems good and evil interacting in this life serve multiple eternal purposes. 

No matter how God designed it, I see it as my place to continue to try to humble myself before His hand and will, of which I do a poor job - because I still have a lot of questions and frustrations.  However, knowing He will bring all into His kingdom in His timing and purpose is helpful with this for me.   

With the scriptures clearly teaching predestination, seems to me what the Calvinists miss is the "end game", i.e., UR - and the various reliefs, hopes, and promises that brings.   :2c:

[jabcat]

lots of opinions/understandings.  i guess we all need to search the scriptures and pray, sincerely seek to do the best we can until we are given to do better.  "Let each man be fully assured in his own mind." 

a few interesting things to think on IMO..

no man can come unless I draw him ..
you did not choose me, I have chosen you (admittedly said to the apostles, but wonder about other applications)

also, If I be lifted up [crucified] I will draw (literally 'drag') all men [people] unto myself   :dsunny:

[MrsOzera]

lots of opinions/understandings.  i guess we all need to search the scriptures and pray, sincerely seek to do the best we can until we are given to do better.  "Let each man be fully assured in his own mind." 

a few interesting things to think on IMO..

no man can come unless I draw him ..
you did not choose me, I have chosen you (admittedly said to the apostles, but wonder about other applications)

also, If I be lifted up [crucified] I will draw (literally 'drag') all men [people] unto myself   :dsunny:

Yeah I definitely think it's all fascinating :) it's great theology but sadly sooo many people get caught up in it and sadly mould God into their own idea of His image.

I definitely see it as also being on our free will. There are just too many people in the world (people I've met and interacted with or some of my closest friends as well) who really have this spiritual "pull" that is making them search for God and yet they reject the message of Jesus of His resurrection. There is no doubt that God pulls people and without that we would never believe, but whether He pulls some and all of those have faith, or whether He pulls some and only a few react or whether He pulls all is simply not up to us. But the idea of predestination and all being reconciled in the end seems quite important :)

Personally, at the moment I reject the idea of us consciously being "spirits" before our births. Maybe it's simply because I'm still too much in a evangelic mindset or whatever but the idea just doesn't sit right with me. I believe God put us on Earth was because Earth was the perfect home for human being which He created and intended for us to live on eternally (which is why "heaven" is actually a New Earth and not some vague spiritual existence). I reject the idea that Earth was simply a task for us to go through or a burden we endured in order to bring God's message on Earth. I believe God's intentions for human beings was from the beginning and will be to the end to rule and subdue (in love with no force) Earth and its creation and live on it peacefully and harmoniously.

Sorry for my rant :P  :2c:

[jabcat]

:)

yeah, i'm no longer a big "free will" guy..moreso, required choices within certain parameters God sets.  we plan, He orders/guides.

one of the main references to some sort of pre-existence (we're covering it all, lol!) is "the spirit REturns to God Who gave it", with the idea of returns as "having been there before".  various beliefs on what all that exactly means.

interesting thoughts on human existence on earth and that purpose.  probably another whole thread or three.  or maybe a book!   :laugh:

[Dandelion]

I was writing my post, while you posted yours, jabcat.

I definitely agree with what you are saying.

I suppose God wins because, even though we can choose, He is able to decide what choices we have to choose from.

And, God has a huge advantage, because He made us. And, He knows what makes us 'tick'. He knows so much more about us, than we know about ourselves. He, also, decides so many things about us, that we cannot choose, such as where we are born, who our parents will be, what our basic personality is, and so on.

And, He loves us. And, when we meet face to face, I am sure we will recognize that Love, that has carried us through so very many joys, adventures, and trials. I don't know how any human can avoid the joy at meeting their maker, the one who loves us the most; always has and always will.

1 Corinthians 13:

11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[c] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

D.

[jabcat]

Amen

[MrsOzera]

:)

yeah, i'm no longer a big "free will" guy..moreso, required choices within certain parameters God sets.  we plan, He orders/guides.

one of the main references to some sort of pre-existence (we're covering it all, lol!) is "the spirit REturns to God Who gave it", with the idea of returns as "having been there before".  various beliefs on what all that exactly means.

interesting thoughts on human existence on earth and that purpose.  probably another whole thread or three.  or maybe a book!   :laugh:

Yeah that's an interesting thing to note :) I suppose I've always seen it as God creating our spirits but which are unable to function without a body. (I don't like the idea of this body/spirit dualism, I very much believe God created humans with the intention of getting bodies and that that's the way we are supposed to interact with our spirit and our physical world). There are some very shady churches out there which I've looked at online which believe that our spirits sinned in heaven and were then "banished" to Earth in physical form (which is also a form of a curse). This just feels so wrong to me (and is again very Dualistic and Gnostic and just so against the idea that the physical realm is good and pleasing and was created joyfully by God) so I suppose I'm very dubious and wary of any theory that claims that we once had a spiritual life before this. I also reject the idea that this physical life is simply a way for our spirit to "mature" before returning to heaven. I know you weren't implying any of these things and I know that's not what you meant, but I thought if I told you what I felt maybe you could understand my hesitation :)

Many blessings  :HeartThrob:

[MrsOzera]

I was writing my post, while you posted yours, jabcat.

I definitely agree with what you are saying.

I suppose God wins because, even though we can choose, He is able to decide what choices we have to choose from.

And, God has a huge advantage, because He made us. And, He knows what makes us 'tick'. He knows so much more about us, than we know about ourselves. He, also, decides so many things about us, that we cannot choose, such as where we are born, who our parents will be, what our basic personality is, and so on.

And, He loves us. And, when we meet face to face, I am sure we will recognize that Love, that has carried us through so very many joys, adventures, and trials. I don't know how any human can avoid the joy at meeting their maker, the one who loves us the most; always has and always will.

1 Corinthians 13:

11 When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. 12 Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity.[c] All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.

D.

:iagree:

Ever since I got into UR it really just HIT me just how understanding God is. I think so many evangelics have this idea of "yeah this guy has a reason to be an atheist, but there are NO excuses good enough for the holy God". They have this mindset that doesn't allow for any understanding or sympathy on God's part, as if the one and only creator and sustainer of the universe - not to mention the Creator of sympathy itself - wouldn't understand or feel with someone and their reasons for rejecting the Gospel (which is most likely just a rejection of one representation of the Gospel, most likely a wrong, ungodly one).

God is so much more caring and understanding than any of us. He knows exactly why someone hates God or why another person committed suicide. Yeah, some people are gonna need a shake-up wake-up (like Paul) to come to faith but others will simply need a hug and for their eyes to be opened the truth of God's loving nature.

Amen!

[jugghead]

I understand it in this way: Salvation by grace happened 2000 years ago for all of mankind at the cross, the difference in people is being convinced that it did for them also.

My view of an unbeliever is one who has not been convinced they are saved by grace, and that is where being convinced {faith} plays its part.

it is understanding that they are ..... they just don't "know" it yet, doubt is a strongman that has to be bound

I believe that all the physical healings that Christ did while He walked this earth were different steps of the process He brings us into, from the healing of the deaf, to the healing of the blind, to the healing of the lame and more...... each a work of grace in us by God through His Spirit so that we become the righteousness of the Father, in which Christ is THAT righteousness.

Blessings

Thanks for your insight :) Just another question to see whether I fully understand what you mean: so that means that you don't believe that any "supernatural" event takes place when someone comes to faith? As in, there is no difference between a believer and unbeliever in terms of justification, salvation, and being sealed by the Holy Spirit?

Many blessings xx

Nope, that is not what I am saying because I did experience something that I could not explain on December 12, 2005 and it was in that instant my life changed, but even after that, it was quite a few years before I was actually convinced that I was saved and convinced that I was justified and convinced that I was sealed, as we grow in understanding we become convinced of all of these things and that they are all "the same Truth" which is Christ.

I myself do not use the term "supernatural" simply because when something is labeled, it will always cause controversy, if people ask, I just say what I already did, I experienced something that I cannot explain but know that my life was changed from that moment on because to label it with one word is like calling God only God and that He has no other names.

With what I have come to understand in the difference between "a believer" and "an unbeliever" is:

"a believer of truth" ... someone who hears the truth and is convinced it is truth
or
"an unbeliever of truth" .... someone who hears the truth but is not convinced it is truth

but who has convinced the person whether it is truth or not .... God through His Spirit OR another man through his spirit

For me all things, all understandings have to be taken within the context of Love, within the context of who AND what God is ..... it is why I can no longer believe in eternal torment or an eternal hell because those concepts are not within the context of Love.

and it is also not taking the word "eternal" in the context of time, instead I understand "eternal" as an attribute of who and what God is, to me the word "eternal" is no different than the word "love" when it comes to God, they are both words used to describe who and what He is, and that they are not only parts of His character (being understood separately) but they are also a representation of His whole character (being understood as one).

again my  :2c:

Blessings to all

[marie glen]

I have come to a point where I absolutely can't stand someone saying "we can see whether someone is saved by their fruit". I do believe salvation produces fruit, but the way these people use that quote is usually to point fingers about certain issues which are not salvation related like "ooh look, that person went to the bar yesterday, he's clearly not saved"  :sigh:

Blessings :HeartThrob:

I agree! ..Humans seem to have the tendency to add commandments (rules)... Loving to feel 'better than'.. I think "love" is better than that! :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

            doubt is a strongman that has to be bound

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: what a great line.. And can, I believe, be said also of unbelief and atheism.. :Chinscratch: which of course each person will overcome..

All I know is that Calvanism is quite a sad and ungodly theology which has led people to see God in an incredibly negative light.

I totally agree.. It's a very sad doctrine and idea.. I think of 'election' as more of a 'lucky' throw of the heavenly dice.. as in God's great truth proving drama (letting God-lessness run its course) has to have (in a way of speaking) more than one character..

I've come to believe that those saved during 'day' of judgment will experience repentance and reconciliation much as we have who have been fortunate enough to be 'chosen' to believe during this lifetime (Levi's of Malachi chapter 3?) - If one has been a despot abusing and murdering many, their remorse, etc (burning shame? weeping, gnashing of one's teeth, i.e., frustration?) is sure to be felt more deeply, or that is more disturbingly, than someone who led a not so sinful or evil a life may.. All speculation of course.. But I like to think biblical and of logic.. And I did come across something in the Hebrew.. where 'chosen' included, "by lot" (old days 'dice/die').

With the scriptures clearly teaching predestination, seems to me what the Calvinists miss is the "end game", i.e., UR - and the various reliefs, hopes, and promises that brings.

Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

no man can come unless I draw him ..
you did not choose me, I have chosen you (admittedly said to the apostles, but wonder about other applications)

also, If I be lifted up [crucified] I will draw (literally 'drag') all men [people] unto myself   :dsunny:

       amen.. :cloud9:

Personally, at the moment I reject the idea of us consciously being "spirits" before our births. Maybe it's simply because I'm still too much in a evangelic mindset or whatever but the idea just doesn't sit right with me. I believe God put us on Earth was because Earth was the perfect home for human being which He created and intended for us to live on eternally (which is why "heaven" is actually a New Earth and not some vague spiritual existence). I reject the idea that Earth was simply a task for us to go through or a burden we endured in order to bring God's message on Earth. I believe God's intentions for human beings was from the beginning and will be to the end to rule and subdue (in love with no force) Earth and its creation and live on it peacefully and harmoniously.

Sorry for my rant :P

No rant! ..imo, lol.. That's how I think about the creation! ...And as glorious! :thumbsup:

Yeah that's an interesting thing to note :) I suppose I've always seen it as God creating our spirits but which are unable to function without a body. (I don't like the idea of this body/spirit dualism, I very much believe God created humans with the intention of getting bodies and that that's the way we are supposed to interact with our spirit and our physical world). There are some very shady churches out there which I've looked at online which believe that our spirits sinned in heaven and were then "banished" to Earth in physical form (which is also a form of a curse). This just feels so wrong to me (and is again very Dualistic and Gnostic and just so against the idea that the physical realm is good and pleasing and was created joyfully by God) so I suppose I'm very dubious and wary of any theory that claims that we once had a spiritual life before this. I also reject the idea that this physical life is simply a way for our spirit to "mature" before returning to heaven. I know you weren't implying any of these things and I know that's not what you meant, but I thought if I told you what I felt maybe you could understand my hesitation :)

Many blessings  :HeartThrob:

..amen, gnostics and their 'depths of satan'.. Like the creation/matter is the problem rather than the carnal character.. part of that misunderstanding still hanging in there and being around, is confusion on the word "flesh" which sometimes is indeed body, and even matter, but is also the carnal - the not led by God - nature, the imperfect character inherited through Adam.

But the idea of matter being the problem, as the early gnostics thought, seems to me to be a major cop out.. I guess I think of "the spirit returns to God who gave it" as the breath of life.. or the spark of life. Personally, I don't believe humans are naturally or inherently immortal, or as it's said 'has an immortal soul' -- soul/psyche -- heart, personality.. I believe that to be one of the earliest of lies, but God said "dust you are and to dust shall you return" and Paul wrote, "with what sort of body will they rise?" not, what sort of body will they inhabit.. :dontknow: a secondary issue of course, with many learned opinions..

I believe our heavenly Father waited and created the universe and man and woman only after the rebellion in the heart of that old dragon.. So all would take this unavoidable journey (lesson of what is good from what is evil / life from death) all together at once. Unavoidable, if we are to be rational creatures, able to think and reason, and even make choices, albeit very limitedly, as already gone into, in this thread, and the choice of when to believe/follow is not ours..

But when the "Spirit is in our heart and exclaims" or feels "Father, my Father" that is the "seal of promise" upon us.. The "seal of His ownership" and is the "guarantee, signature, notary, down payment, pledge" that all He has promised will come to pass, and that "He is faithful to complete the work He has begun in us."
..God bless! :Peace2:

[WhiteWings]

...salvation is by ... faith alone ...

Maybe that's right. Maybe it's not  :laugh:
It greatly (totally) depends on how you define faith and salvation.

Just believing 'Jesus was/is a good Man' isn't enough.
In the western mind faith is a thought, a feeling, etc.
Same in Hebrew PLUS acting on it.

"Faith without works is dead."

And when you think about it's very obvious.
I believe Jesus was right claiming murder is bad; but I'm a serial killer.
I believe Jesus was right claiming stealing is bad; but I'm a bankrobber.