Billy Weiss, Mary Baxter etc

[Simmo]

I have a friend (admittedly we're not really friends anymore) who had an experience of being sucked into "hell" that lasted I think for a v. short time before returning to earth. However it impacted him greatly and he says it was a major impetus for him coming to the Lord.

Myself I've experienced "hell" on earth, and the teaching on hell I grew up with as a child kept me from trusting in Jesus for a long time – in fact I ran from him. But then 20 years ago (1998) the Lord started speaking to me graciously, he invited me to search the scriptures and see if they really taught ET. I searched the English scriptures and came to the conclusion annihilation was the end result for the lost. Not ideal, but a lot better imo than ET I grew up with. I was happy to settle for annihilation as the punishment for the lost.
Around this time I also had an experience of being in the presence of God and "eternity", where three words spoken to me "I love u" by God convinced me absolutely he was and is good not evil. Those 3 words would normally take 1-2 seconds to say, but when God spoke them they were eternal. It was an amazing experience outside of time. Those three words seem to last for eternity. It wasn't long after this as I was sharing my doubts with this good God as to who he was, and I prayed he'd remove my doubts once and for all, that the HS immediately answered by dropping "they pierced my hands and feet" into my heart from Psalm 22 and that convinced me fully the crucified Jesus truly was and is God. Always when I have doubts HS now reminds me of this and my doubts dissipate.

It's a long story but especially Gary through this tentmaker site and understanding the mistranslations we have in English versions of scripture, as well as the Spirit of God prompting me, I've been helped to move fully into the ultimate reconciliation understanding. It's exciting because I now experience real peace and power as I proclaim boldly that the risen Lord Jesus Christ really is the Saviour of the Whole world, that no one has resisted God's will for all men to be saved, and no one can fight against God and win! No love wins, I proclaim with assurance and conviction.


Anyway that is a bit of background, but my point of this thread is.

My friend who had experienced hell is a full on ETist.
Around 2008 on his prompting I read Mary Baxter's story. On reading her story I made this observation. Never once in her account did Jesus say that the people in hell were there forever. This was always Mary Baxter's interpretation of her vision.

I haven't analysed Bill Weiss in detail but I also suspect this will be the case with his story as well.

My ET friend also seems to be relying on his presuppositions in interpreting his experience.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't think these hell experiences are necessarily frauds, but rather I suspect they are interpreting their experiences in the light of their presuppositions, with those presuppositions based on their ET beliefs conveyed through the "churches" teachings on ET and our poor English translations of these concepts.

At the end of the day if we can help the Mary Baxter's, Billy Weiss', my friend's etc of this world see how they are teaching their interpretation of their experiences rather than just sharing their experience and allowing it to be interpreted in light of God's unfailing love we can help stop the ongoing perpetuation of this myth.

I am also careful how I teach UR as perhaps many will experience ET before ultimately being saved. After all I experienced eternal life in the presence of God but it is not my "always experience".

Sorry bit of a ramble but helping those who have experienced hell reinterpret their experience rather than writing them off as frauds might be the best way to go?

Edited on to improve readability

[sheila]

 :thumbsup: Job 33;14-18...terrify them by a vision of the night[darkness] to cause them toturn..

[jabcat]

Good testimony, and I think you're right on.  Good scrip sheila.   :thumbsup:

[Simmo]

Thnxs Sheila And Jabcat :)

[Ross]

When Paul states that NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord, he gives a pretty comprehensive list;
included in that list are angels, demons, and powers of darkness, life death....
Not talked about at all in any church service I attended, or by some "spiritual' experts I have met.
There are many teachers claiming visions- has happened throughout history.
Many experts claiming they know God- even define who/what God is all about.
Jesus states they will do this sort of stuff, but He never knew them.
I.M.O this all highlights that many will come to know in their appointed time, just not that time for them yet because their are running the appointment instead of Christ being the one implementing the true change- all emphasizing the difference between the self effort and the grace of God.
Eph 2;8 " For you have been saved by Grace, through faith, AND THIS IS NOT OF YOURSELF IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD."

[rosered]

 
Hello  Simmo , 

Thanks for the  introduction story , made me think again of something I have once since forgotten .   

  I am more than ever convinced of   the Holy Spirit and fire  experience  , can be told by two  entirely  different mindsets .

One is earthly  , sensual and devilish  and thus the   Devil is exposed  that man of sin nature[accusing  by nature that spreads the lie   that God is  a monster   and does not LOVE any of us , furthest from the Truth   that ever was  and holds many people in  the  fear of death totally  , and many believe  that is  the hell fire  forever torment  and carnal  interpretation  of it and it spreads like wild fire to others and others still and it  goes on and on   though the ages as   a fear invoking  concept .  Something they really do not understand by their own wisdom .

The Spiritual mindset , knows  that it is the  job of the HOLY ONE  to convict us of sin  nature  and than chastise us of sin nature and than comfort us of sin nature . 
This is keeping us  in the HOLY SPIRIT and Fire   , God is a consuming Fire    and to me it is His Spirit  and presence in our lives     , odd how those whom tell the tale  are not consumed by the fire   and yet they warn us of that place  they have just experienced huh? 

  as if they are some kind of angel of light  to warn of  not going there  but invoke  fear and power over the people  that are  foolish enough to believe  in  them  and NOT GOD  hummm .

2 Corinth 11 ...13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ.

14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions....
So sorry to confess this now , but had a vision once many years ago  and saw  in the darkness all around    a sight it was brilliant Light above with  a cylinder   massive tube   of a circle  of fire all around the  middle of it going upward    but below it was just flames dancing about   flicking   into the darkness below it   .

Now at first it just confused me totally   and only shared that   with a very few      people  , hoping they could understand it 
Being afraid was  kind of  a new experience   and just was learning about Universal  Reconciliation     and was not  settled in me yet , but I was more in awe of it   than anything .

It took many years  and scriptures  and asking God to  help me understand  what  this  meaning was .

NO evil can dwell in Gods presence    , The consuming Fire of His Holy Sprint   keeps us  by His nature near and dear  to Him    and the devil  fears the fire and has to go  , but uses the fire as a  fear of  torment  to anyone whom wants to  know God  , the HOLY PRESENCE   .... 

We know though the Word  of God that Jesus come to set  the world on fire [Luke 12;49-52] 49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three.


  The baptism of   death on the Cross   brought the new covenant in effect  , heaven would open to all   and  everyone would  receive the Holy Spirit and fire   baptism as well  [take up your cross ]  , your little lake of fire would   keep you clean  as you are convicted of sin and  chastised of sin and  comforted because of sin dwelling in your mortal body   by the presence of the Holy Spirit & Word of God  working in you .
GOD is fair and  and no respecter of persons  ,  two  laws   death and life   , one taking out what needs to go and one    renewing what is to come a part of the whole .

For me the proof was found in the  Word of God  to convince  me  that when the dragon was cast out of heaven and  released the flood of lies   the earth helped the Woman [ true Church/Body of Christ being built up  and edified and Living  by Love of God for Her ]   when the earth  [our mortal bodies  took in all the filthy lies of the dragons flood ] it would take the Holy Spirit and fire indwelling in you to   dry it all up [ Romans 7 ]   convinced me Paul knew , that it was no longer him that sinned but   the sin that was indwelling in his flesh   that the fire and Light  of Gods presence  and WISDOM/ Christ     would  destroy death in him ...   
Revealing of Christ  by the Spirit of prophecy on the Lords DAY [Light has come ]    , King of kings and Lord of lords  would  destroy death , tasting it for everyone   once and for all  in the end ..

It is a poor summary ,, but so many scriptures to consider   also   ,,,

  We just got to wait on the Lord to reveal Himself  to each and every one of us   , cause  that is exactly what He is going to do ... :dsunny:

[Simmo]

Thanks for sharing Rossred  :dsunny:

[Simmo]

...and Ross thnxs for sharing too.

It's amazing how scriptures open up and start to make sense that were always confusing or scary before.

I remember once in Perth back in 2005 the hs spoke the words to me "you cannot fight against God and win" and it really scared me. Now I take that phrase and I see it's true meaning "love wins" and it has turned from a curse to a blessing.

Praise God!  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

[Ross]

Now I take that phrase and I see it's true meaning "love wins" and it has turned from a curse to a blessing.

He loves us more than our earthly dad. His picture and future for us exceeds the current imagination- pretty much like we love to surprise our own children with something bigger than they thought or imagined.

It's amazing how scriptures open up and start to make sense that were always confusing or scary before.

Take away the false teachings of man and the scriptures come alive.
His love NEVER fails. Love Romans 8;38,39

[Simmo]

 :dsunny: :Peace2:

[rosered]

 :HeartThrob:

  Amen , my brothers !!! , the correction of God is mercy  , as the new spiritual man can rejoice    in the goodness of God as the fleshly earthly and sensual man subsides  in power  till he is no more .

  The anger must not control us , but the Spirit of GODS Love  must take the reigns of your hearts  and tongues to love all as Gods loves all  and is no respecter of persons ...

It was hard for me at first to tell if it was    Gods discipline or the devil sifting us as wheat ,

but it seems  now as if God  is the ONLY One in control of our lives  and satan looses all power over  the new spiritual man , the inner man,  born of Christ  seed /Word of God that shall rule  our minds and hearts and tongues by the Holy Spirit  of Life  that  is strengthened  and renewed day by day as the Light gets brighter and brighter , being children of the Day and His family    .

  God Disciplines His Sons  Hebrews
...5And you have forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons:

"My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, or lose heart when He rebukes you.

6For the Lord disciplines the one He loves, and He chastises everyone He receives as a son."

7Endure suffering as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?...

Deuteronomy 8:5
"Thus you are to know in your heart that the LORD your God was disciplining you just as a man disciplines his son.

Psalm 94:12
Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law;

Psalm 119:75
I know, O LORD, that Your judgments are righteous, And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.

Proverbs 3:11
My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof,

Proverbs 3:12
For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.

Lamentations 3:39
Why should any living mortal, or any man, Offer complaint in view of his sins?

Revelation 3:19
Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent.

  :dsunny:

[marie glen]

I remember once in Perth back in 2005 the hs spoke the words to me "you cannot fight against God and win" and it really scared me. Now I take that phrase and I see it's true meaning "love wins" and it has turned from a curse to a blessing.

Praise God!  :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

...Amen! That's totally awesome! And I like your idea (insight) that these 'visions' are being interpreted by preconceived beliefs and notions! I never thought of that.. Also along with that, now, I'm thinking the visions could also be potential.. And if not for the LORD's salvation all would perish.. For nothing less than utterly pure can "live" in His presence which ultimately is life.. That is to say, He is life itself and everywhere present, thus ultimately no impurity can endure, but is consumed away by His purity - all impurity consumed by purity, like light swallows darkness..

Amen good post and verse Ross, and loved your post/sharing Rose!

:girlheart: :cloud9: :cloud9:

[DavidFord]

I searched the English scriptures and came to the conclusion annihilation was the end result for the lost. Not ideal, but a lot better imo than ET I grew up with. I was happy to settle for annihilation as the punishment for the lost.

I too dropped the never-ending torture position after investigating matters, and became an annihilationist.

Around this time I also had an experience of being in the presence of God and "eternity", where three words spoken to me "I love u" by God convinced me absolutely he was and is good not evil. Those 3 words would normally take 1-2 seconds to say, but when God spoke them they were eternal. It was an amazing experience outside of time. Those three words seem to last for eternity. It wasn't long after this as I was sharing my doubts with this good God as to who he was, and I prayed he'd remove my doubts once and for all, that the HS immediately answered by dropping "they pierced my hands and feet" into my heart from Psalm 22 and that convinced me fully the crucified Jesus truly was and is God. Always when I have doubts HS now reminds me of this and my doubts dissipate.

I consider Baxter's account hogwash.
In the Aramaic Peshi+ta version of the NT, there are instances of "MrYa" i.e. Master YHWH, whereas the Greek NT has merely kurios i.e. lord there, besides numerous extra locations.  The case that "the crucified Jesus truly was and is God" is bolstered by some of the instances of Master YHWH in the Aramaic.