Hello everyone

[scott]

My name is Scott. Although my views differ from many Universalists, I have hope in and believe in a real possibility of Universal Salvation. I would like to share some of my views here to see if I fit into these forums. If not, you needn't ban me. Please just let me know and I'll be on my way.

First of all, I do believe in hell.

Here are some of my other beliefs:

Blood sacrifices were once offered up for the forgiveness of sins. Today, it is common practice for the dead in purgatory to obtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven (C.C.C., X. Indulgences). So, in other words, the Catholic Church intervenes for the individual by asking Father God, who stores up our good works, to apply some of them in lieu of punishment due to sins. But these indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints - the faithful dead only. The Churches fail to teach the complete redemptive work of Christ. The Gospel message of salvation must reach to all humans in all places of all times. Our good works can be offered up for the atonement of sins of the unfaithful dead in hell as well.

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

The Bible teaches that atonement is required for the forgiveness of sin. These stored up good works held by God are unfathomably immense according to the Catholic Church. They could at some time be applied for the atonement of all the dead in hell. Salvation for all humans is not out of the range of possibilities.

1 Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 4:10. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:28. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

[Dandelion]

I want to begin by saying that I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school for 12 years. I was very well learned in the ways of Catholicism and knew the theology well. I have since become a Christian, who has studied the Bible for many, many years, both formally and informally. That being said, I will address a few points.

The following is my opinion, backed by Bible verses, which I believe, support my opinion. On this site we often call that our 2 cents.      :2c:

There is no storehouse of good deeds, because any good we do as humans, first eminates from God's grace and goodness, not our own.

◄ Isaiah 64 ►
New American Standard Bible
Prayer for Mercy and Help

1Oh, that You would rend the heavens and come down,
            That the mountains might quake at Your presence—
      2As fire kindles the brushwood, as fire causes water to boil—
            To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
            That the nations may tremble at Your presence!

      3When You did awesome things which we did not expect,
            You came down, the mountains quaked at Your presence.

      4For from days of old they have not heard or perceived by ear,
            Nor has the eye seen a God besides You,
            Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.

      5You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
            Who remembers You in Your ways.
            Behold, You were angry, for we sinned,
            We continued in them a long time;
            And shall we be saved?

      6For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
            And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
            And all of us wither like a leaf,
            And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

      7There is no one who calls on Your name,
            Who arouses himself to take hold of You;
            For You have hidden Your face from us
            And have delivered us into the power of our iniquities.

      8But now, O LORD, You are our Father,
            We are the clay, and You our potter;
            And all of us are the work of Your hand.

      9Do not be angry beyond measure, O LORD,
            Nor remember iniquity forever;
            Behold, look now, all of us are Your people.

      10Your holy cities have become a wilderness,
            Zion has become a wilderness,
            Jerusalem a desolation.

      11Our holy and beautiful house,
            Where our fathers praised You,
            Has been burned by fire;
            And all our precious things have become a ruin.

      12Will You restrain Yourself at these things, O LORD?
            Will You keep silent and afflict us beyond measure?


Philippians 3:8–9

8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of cthe surpassing worth of dknowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—


God makes it very clear in the Bible that:

John 15:  5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you remain in Me and My words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8This is to My Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be My disciples.

There is only one who can offer up for our sins...one who is fully God and fully man, and that is Jesus, the only son of God. Only His purity can suffice and only his humaness can save us. His blood is the blood needed for sacrifice....no other.

Hebrews 10:

8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"—though they were offered in accordance with the law. 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 "This is the covenant I will make with them
    after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
    and I will write them on their minds."
17 Then he adds:

"Their sins and lawless acts
    I will remember no more."
18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


I don't believe we ever go to "Hell". We are transformed, however, before we get to Heaven.

There are many links and videos on You Tube by Gary Amirault which can teach you the perspective of this website.

Certainly, not that I am an expert, but learning, as are we all, to varying degrees, here.

Come with an open mind, and respect for other's opinions, and you should be more than welcome.

I am sure the moderators will give you much good advise and direction as to what is allowed and what is not. They are a great asset to our site.

Welcome, Scott. May your journey here, however long or short, be blessed, for the glory of God.

Dandelion ( I didn't want this last paragraph in bold letters, but I can't seem to undo this.)

[jabcat]

hi scott...nothing in your post "not allowed"...we may or may not agree, but as long as you post as "thinking things through", "in my opinion", "as I understand", etc., much room is allowed for ponderings.  It's when we get a nasty, know-it-all, insulting tone, etc. on top of it, that there can become a negative reflection on variations of belief and can result in a shorter leash.  :)

as far as content, I don't believe the scriptures teach that any denominational body, including the catholic church, has anything specifically to do with salvation.  it is a free gift of God, given when and to whom He declares is their time.  the ecclesia/predestined now, to be used for His purposes, and the rest later, in their time.  still, all a free gift based on the blood and grace (and atoning sacrifice) of Jesus.

I believe dandelion made a good post with explanations and specifics. 

a note - many believe in some sort of post-mortum corrective period, some call it hell (which i believe is a "made up" word), some may call it other things.  I believe Jesus used the equivalent of "temporary corrective punishment" in the original languages.  but IMO, that's not to "bring salvation" per se, but rather to bring one to the place of receiving His free gift already purchased.  some of us are more stubborn than others, and have more to be [spiritually] disciplined/burned up than others.   :2c:

[Dandelion]

Thank you, jabcat!  :Peace2:

[scott]

Dandelion.

Thank you for your welcome and kind words. I will surely keep my mind open and not disrespect the opinions of others. Although, I have given Universal Salvation some thought, I have much to learn.

In regards to:

Isaiah 64:6. For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

It appears to me that this verse is referring to the sinner who continues to sin for a long time. As seen in the verse before:

Isaiah 64:5. You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways. Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved?

There righteous deeds are like a filthy garment.

Here's scripture showing otherwise:

James 2:17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I interpret the following verses as demonstrating good works being stored up in heaven:

1 Timothy 6:17-19. As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

God rewards us for our good works:

Colossians 3:23-24. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

The verse you quoted:

Hebrew 10:18. And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

I believe this to be referring to blood sacrifices and not of good works. Good works have replaced blood sacrifices.

I believe that we can offer up some of our good works for the forgiveness of sins. Something similar was demonstrated in the old testament with blood sacrifices.

I do agree with you that we are transformed before we go to heaven. It is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. One suffers a spiritual death...is in ruins and of no value or worth. It is by the divine power of God that our souls are salvaged (restored) at the moment of death.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Well, there's my "two cents." For what it's worth. Peace.

[marie glen]

 :welcome: Scott to the forum! :hiya:

I may be actually quite a bit opposite.. as I find myself not agreeing with the institutions and the organizing efforts of man.. I suppose they serve a purpose.. but I guess I believe the true "way" is following Jesus, and the Word of God (the New Testament especially) alone. Not that worshiping or pursuing truth together isn't a great thing! And we humans do like to find others of like mind and form groups, just like its such a human tendency to form family and extended family and friends.. But when - was it Abraham? was told to stack stones for an altar, he was told not to take a tool to it, for that would corrupt (contaminate?) it.. It would no longer be perfect.. Man loves to shape things.. even to shaping truth into things, and in doing so, changes it..

:laughing7: anyway, that's my :2c:

[marie glen]

I believe dandelion made a good post with explanations and specifics. 

:iagree: :iagree: :thumbsup:

[sheila]

what works must Ido Lord, Believe inthe onewhom Hesent..  when you believein Christ as the perfect sacrificeoffered up for all the sins

of the world..past,present and future.

..knowing His blood poured out was for the forgiveness of all sins[unless blood is poured out no forgiveness of sin occurrs.] God,in

  HisLOVE..has....covered our nakedness[with the cornerof His garment] andcovered all our sinswith the lambsblood.


  the serpent whisper's inthe ear...isit really true that the LAMB as the Wordof God took away all their sin?

      make friends for yourselves by meansof the unrighteous riches[materialsupplies of thisrealm] in order that whenthese fail....

you shall be warmly recieved.  SOS speaksof the Bride having friends in the garden...that praise herlove for the Lord.


   there is reward and the free gift of eternal life...two different things..... a free gift is unmerited...a reward is merited.......a welldone!

etc...In nursing the hospital had what they called an ABCD reward...above &beyond the call of duty.....a special pin and xtra paid

day off.Jesus said even greater works than these would be done.When we find value and merit in the Words and commands of Jesus...

even though the world sees you as being a fool...you will not fail to recieve a reward for it. By the same token...when we fail tohonour

Him by our words,thoughts actions...we go to Him inrepentance[we have and advocate]forhelp. if we set a course inthe wrong direction

and continue in it....say turn to eye for aneye etc..harden our heartsinunforgiveness etc...we will reapthe fruit of that sowing...strife..

stress,loss ofpeace of mind,broken family relationships,alienations etc.  He says ....I willnotleaveyou completely unpunished...as our

iniquity does reprove us. He has full power and authority to bring about circumstances in our lives that most certainly do result in

a change of attitude! andshould eventhat fail...He can break our clay vessel with a rod of iron and we return home for a face to face

meeting to correct the matter.[hardened clay vessels/hearts shatter..like Pharoah of Egypt]

    The prodigal saw himself as an independant son and heir...Master of his own affairs.Completely autonymous..needing nodirection

..and did nothave a servants heart...cicumstancescome about in hislife that madehim reconsider servanthood unto His Father.


   The elder son had a servanthood attitude in regard to His Father..but an undeveloped senseof his sonship[of coarse hisFather would

nothave objected to him enjoying himself and His sonship/His Father wanting him  to be  joyful in life..not a continual nose to the

grindstone servant/slave  m.o.[no autonomy]

         Moderation in all things..elder son mentalities called Jesus a glutton and winebiber..a friendof 'sinners" He had a lotof bad

associations..the despised of the community were drawn to Him...and so too,it is and shall be...allmen shall be drawn unto Him..

the worst and most despised..tax-collectors,harlots.

   Isaaih 10;25  VERY SOON..my anger  against you will end. ..and my wrath will be directed to their destruction.

   Isaaih 54;7,8  for a brief moment I abandond you,but with deep compassion I will bring youback. In asurge of anger I hid my face

from you but for a moment,but with everlasting kindness I  will have compassion on you.

  Zech 1;14-17  Proclaim this word..'I AM VERY JEALOUS FOR JERUSALEM AND ZION,but I am very angry with the nations that feel

secure.. I WAS ONLY A LITTLE ANGRY,but they added to the calamity

  Jesus said,'why do you callme good,only God isgood." the Father does His works in me. Believe the works.  for what good worksdo you

condemn me?
,

   Rev  repent of the works of your hands and give  God the glory.....works ofsilver,gold,wood,stone. Be carefulhow you build  ......only

  His mercy lasts forever.

[sheila]

Ipraise God's works of Gold/Love/purity,silver/His righteousness/Bronze/Hisjudgements,wood,Hiscross/Branch,stubble.Hisburning thechaff

and tares,His stone work/cast down this temple[lively stones]andIwill raise itup. I ambuilt upby Hisworks,redeemedby Hiswork,savedby His

work,given eternallifeby His works. I AMfearfullyand wonderfullymade.Our Father laid thechief cornerstone,Christ Jesus....and it is

He that builds the House..or the workers work  in vain.   That'show Ifeelaboutit.... :2c:

[Dandelion]

Dandelion.

Thank you for your welcome and kind words. I will surely keep my mind open and not disrespect the opinions of others. Although, I have given Universal Salvation some thought, I have much to learn.

In regards to:

Isaiah 64:6. For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

It appears to me that this verse is referring to the sinner who continues to sin for a long time. As seen in the verse before:

Isaiah 64:5. You meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness, Who remembers You in Your ways. Behold, You were angry, for we sinned, We continued in them a long time; And shall we be saved?

There righteous deeds are like a filthy garment.

Here's scripture showing otherwise:

James 2:17. Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I interpret the following verses as demonstrating good works being stored up in heaven:

1 Timothy 6:17-19. As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God, who richly provides us with everything to enjoy. They are to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, thus storing up treasure for themselves as a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is truly life.

God rewards us for our good works:

Colossians 3:23-24. Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

The verse you quoted:

Hebrew 10:18. And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.

I believe this to be referring to blood sacrifices and not of good works. Good works have replaced blood sacrifices.

I believe that we can offer up some of our good works for the forgiveness of sins. Something similar was demonstrated in the old testament with blood sacrifices.

I do agree with you that we are transformed before we go to heaven. It is the human condition that we are evil and wicked without God in the afterlife. One suffers a spiritual death...is in ruins and of no value or worth. It is by the divine power of God that our souls are salvaged (restored) at the moment of death.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 1:16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Well, there's my "two cents." For what it's worth. Peace.

I think I understand your concept of Good Works. However, Good Works in no way implies that we are the source of the 'Good'. Good works, I believe, originate from God, who works through us. We do need to offer one thing to God, and that is for Him to become the one who directs our life and not ourselves. We give ourselves to God, wretched though we may be, and ask Him to transform us....to live through us, to use us as His vessel.

We cannot offer Good Works as a gift to God, as all good comes from Him. If that had been the situation, Jesus would not have had to die on the cross, if there was ever any merit to our works.

So, yes, I very much believe in Good Works, but only is as much as we allow God to work His Good, through us.

Regarding your interpretation of the verse about filthy rags, I believe that that sentiment is upheld throughout the Bible.

There is nothing we can offer to God that is of our own. We are saved by HIS sacrifice on the cross. Nothing else is necessary....never has been and never will be.

I understand the RC Church teachers Transubstantiation regarding Communion, but, I believe that comes from the O.T. thinking of the priest offering the sacrifice for the atonment of sins. But, when Jesus died and the curtain of the temple was ripped into two, we no longer needed a priest to sacrifice, because the one and only sacrifice that could once and for all atone for our sins was done.

The priests in the temples were part of the Law, but when Jesus came, He fulfilled the Law and the Law transformed into the Ultimate sign of Love that this world would ever know..... Jesus' death on the cross. All that was needed was faith in Jesus, and we could be transformed into followers of Christ.

Thats all I have time for tonight.....and to say...this is my  :2c:

D.

[Ross]

Ipraise God's works of Gold/Love/purity,silver/His righteousness/Bronze/Hisjudgements,wood,Hiscross/Branch,stubble.Hisburning thechaff

and tares,His stone work/cast down this temple[lively stones]andIwill raise itup. I ambuilt upby Hisworks,redeemedby Hiswork,savedby His

work,given eternallifeby His works. I AMfearfullyand wonderfullymade.Our Father laid thechief cornerstone,Christ Jesus....and it is

He that builds the House..or the workers work  in vain.   That'show Ifeelaboutit.... :2c:

:iagree:      "and it is He that builds the House"
The proverbial "nutshell"!! Pretty awesome builder.

[marie glen]

There's some great info in this thread... This was one of the questions I had when I first came to faith in the Lord many years ago. Then I read a great book by Andrew Murray, called "Abide in Me" or at least that's what I think it was called. It was all about how Jesus said "I am the vine, you are the branches, Abide in me so you will bear fruit. Unless you Abide in Me, you cannot produce fruit but are then like dry sticks, not useful for anything" - which now as I'm reading it sounds a bit like "not good for any good works"!

I must have been very tired or something back then, for I kept reading verses saying "rest in Me" and "enter my rest" ..."come away.. and be like the deer by streams of (refreshing) water.."

"Abide in Me, apart from Me ye can do nothing." "Be being filled with the Spirit.."

If we read read read the new testament we can see what's true and what's not, we can only pass on truth / "feed my sheep" and "be found of Him doing so" only if we will indeed "Abide in Him" and will "Abide in His Word".. He is after all "the Logos/the Word" ...then when He returns bringing the rewards with Him - whether our reward is that our works burn up (do not endure) or our works remain!

("He is our reward"!)

We are set free to love everyone. If we only love those we think have it all right as to belief and doctrine.. Well I'm not sure any of us could be loved! I think we can try to find the common ground that we do have with others (in the churches, etc) and through peace and love insert truth and UR verses when the opportunity comes up. I guess I have given up any idea of finding a church in this imperfect and strange world which has it right! I don't view them as teachers or leaders, just fellow believers searching..
:dontknow:  :2c: :gsmile:

[eaglesway]

For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10

And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works Heb 10:24

[scott]

I agree, that the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ is sufficient for the atonement of the believer's sins.

Romans 10:9. If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

This is not the case for the non-believer.

Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

God requires atonement for the dead to be saved.

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

Here are some of my further views on atonement and salvation for the dead. I consider it to be a practical guide.

We must learn to search scripture with the loving heart of Christ

Lamentations 3:31-30. For no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion, so great is his unfailing love. For he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone.

Jesus descended into hell for three days to deliver the faithful dead with His sacrificial blood atonement.

1 Peter 4:6. For this reason the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in spirit.

Jesus now holds the keys to death and Hades. The unfaithful dead in hell can be saved. Otherwise, the redemptive work of Christ would not be complete and we fall short of the glory of God.

Revelations 1:18. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Our good works can be offered up to Christ as atonement for the sins of those who died without faith and are now in hell. Atonement is necessary because they did not have faith in their lifetimes. This completes the gospel work of salvation. To say otherwise, is to cut short the redemptive work of Christ.

Again,

2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

It is all the same for God to free prisoners in this world from their captives as it is for Christ to free prisoners from their captives in the spirit world.

Zechariah 9:11. As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit.

And Christ will free prisoners in hell through you because of the blood of the covenant He has with you. This is a blessing bestowed upon us by our Lord.

And, it is by the power of God that salvation is made for us and the dead.

1 Corinthians 1:18. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Let's not fail to see the significance of being able to offer up our goods works as atonement for the sins of the lost souls in hell. Your family, friends and even strangers who died without faith can have their souls restored (salvaged) by the divine power of Christ and be with God, Jesus, the angels, family and friends in heaven. One must be in good standing with God and have the door closed to all unhealthy spirits before atonement will be accepted. Although, atonement is required for the forgiveness of the sins of the unfaithful dead in hell, it is still by the Lord's sacrifice that heaven and hell is open and the glory goes to Father God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:19. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

I believe the offering up of good works to Christ as atonement for sins of those who died without faith is the only true way that Christ's redemptive work of salvation is complete. God demands atonement for sins. The good works of the church in Christ can be that atonement. This is a necessary component in our Lord's work. Jesus is mighty to save and He will stretch His staff down to the very depths of hell to save souls. And it does not have to be at any predetermined moment in time. It can be in our very own lifetimes.

In conclusion, this, my friends, is the most loving thing you can do for these poor, lost souls. And, may God bless you for such an undertaking.

:2c:

[sheila]

but...He has bound us all up in disobedience/UNBELIEF......IN ORDER TO SHOW MERCY UNTO ALL.  Every knee shall bow..andevery

tougne SHALL confess..that Jesus is Lord....IF we had known......Jesus was the Christ of Glory...we would not have crucified him.

...andTHAT was the plan..wasn't it.The scriptures must be fulfilled.

we have all bore the imageof the corrupt[beendead in sinand tresspasses] and so,too,shallwe allbear the image..of theincorrupt..

for that which ismortal..MUST put onimmortality....andthat whichis corrupt..incorruption.

   for asthrough ONE MAN sinentered..and allmen became sinners...SO>>>>>>TOO SHALLTHROUGH THE RIGHTEOUSNESS

OF ONE MAN....ALL MEN SHALL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS[FREE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS THROUGH CHRIST} GOD"S

PERFECT JUSTICE..eh?

  Jesus said..'I judge no man...THE FATHER JUDGES NO MAN" I COME NOT TO CONDEMN THE WORLD...BUT TO SAVE IT"

  for the LAW was a tutour[ministryof death/condemnation] TO LEAD US TO CHRIST[GRACE AND SALVATION AND FORGIVENESS

AND RESTORATION/HEALING..AND LIFE]  GOD DOES NOT HAVE A HEART OF STONE.....GOD IS LOVE.


    HE HAS CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH[vesselfitted for destruction] BUT FORGIVEN..MADE ATONEMENT..AND GIVES FREELY

THE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE{VESSELS OF MERCY ]

  GOD..has concluded ALL men in unbelief..IN ORDER TO SHOW MERCY UNTO ALL

[Ross]

GOD..has concluded ALL men in unbelief..IN ORDER TO SHOW MERCY UNTO ALL

Can the pot say to the potter why it has been made?
BEFORE the world began I knew you- before Adam and Eve had sinned.
Ergo this is all part of the master plan for ALL mankind where ALL will come to the truth.
LOVE CONQUERS ALL.

[Dandelion]

1 John 4:19

19 We love because he first loved us.

There is nothing in the entire universe that ever needs to be done to complete Jesus' sacrifice of dying on the cross. His final words were, "It is finished." and it was.....for all mankind, for all times. God and Man, finally reconciled.

I do not believe any of us can atone for someone else....God wants each of us to give Him our existence, to shape and mold us into being like Christ.

That is all He wants from us........ our faith, our trust, our very being. AND THAT IS ALL WE HAVE TO GIVE. Not our goodness.....we have no goodness apart from God. God is our goodness, our strength, our joy,......in Him we move and have our being. God, and God alone, is our all in all.

At best, we can pray for others....possibly those who are on the other side as well......I guess as a UR we can ask that they be able to give God their faith, their trust and their being......but that is all we can do for them. Our good works cannot 'free' them, because what is holding them back is that they haven't trusted in God. Nothing we do can make them do that....they must come to that conclusion themselves.

That is the journey we all must take....the road we must walk to go to Heaven......so that we can be one body of Christ, in Heaven.

Protestants don't have Macabees in their Bibles.....Luther removed those books, because of the abuse of indulgences by the Catholic Church of the Middle Ages.

2 Maccabees 12:43-46Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

43 And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,
44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)
45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.
46 It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

Apparently, the person under discussion wanted all to know that he truly believed the dead would rise...which is not under question.

No where does it say that his money was desired by God, or that it made any impact on those deceased souls.

And, yes, those who die believing in God do have grace....but, it doesn't mean they can give it away.

I do agree it is acceptable to pray for the dead, as they are still part of the body of Christ, though most Protestants don't pray for the dead....unless they are UR believers, I would think. As I said above....we pray for them to be born again, if you will. All of us, at some point in our journey, must look at our existence as belonging to Christ, and not ourselves.

"Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies." — 1 Corinthians 6:19-20


Well, enough for now. These are my thoughts and present beliefs....we must always be open to the Holy Spirit to tutor us and help us grow in the faith.

D.

[Dandelion]

Just wanted to add, regarding God's divine intervention in our lives and how that plays out regarding free will, I am not sure where, if at all, the boundary is. I used to think I knew.....now, I think I don't know. It is elusive for sure....my current thoughts are that we are not supposed to know the method the Lord uses.

As in everything, we trust.

D.

[jabcat]

 :2thumbs:  Grace.  Grace, not works.  Lest any man should boast.


It does not depend on him who runs or wills, but on God who shows mercy.  Romans 9:16

[scott]

Grace without works is for those who have faith in their lifetimes. Not for the unfaithful who died and went to hell.

Mark 16:16. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

God is pleased and values our good works. God is a Father and like any father, He would like to see good things come from His children.

Hebrew 13:16. And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

We are rewarded for good works.

2 Corinthians 5:10.  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

It is by our good works that we are considered righteous.

James 2:24. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Even Jesus demands good works.

Matthew 5:16. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

It is also written of faith and good works.

James 2:17. So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

Here, good works are mentioned in the old testament.

Proverbs 21:3. To do what is right and just is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice.

Regarding the lives we should live and good works.

Matthew 3:8. Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

1 Peter 2:12. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

That's some of my :2c: on good works.

[jabcat]

Grace without works is for those who have faith in their lifetimes.

I'm glad we agree on that part. :)

Not for the unfaithful who died and went to hell.

Although I guess it's not anything that's really "make or break", because it's a good thing to be obedient to our Savior, I just don't see any scriptural evidence that those alive's good works really has anything to do with those passed on.  Praying for them seems clearly mentioned, but not doing any kind of service or indulgence, etc. 

When Jesus went to preach (proclaim) to the spirits in prison, I don't find that he required any works from them or anyone else (unless one considers perhaps their acceptance/belief/submission to Him as such?).  Rather, I believe just as He does when He calls those chosen to hear and believe in this lifetime, He led them from their captivity.   Through the power of the cross and His works upon it and the empty tomb, not anyone else's efforts.  I for sure see through a veil darkly, but I just personally don't see anything different than that.  :dontknow:   Even through the use of the (current) ecclesia in the next age to bring others in, I believe it will still be focused on Christ, the Lamb slain.  And as was earlier brought up, nothing else needed to complete what Jesus has done.  For me, it's Christ alone.   

[jabcat]

I believe delving into a study with an open heart and mind will reveal that salvation is strictly through faith in Christ, with the ability to believe provided to us by God.  Further, that works are an evidence of that faith, relationship, and change wrought within us.  A result of, not a vehicle to.

For instance, though it may seem so, I'd suggest that James didn't contradict Paul's clear teaching of grace, not works as the means of salvation.  He did indicate good works would be present in a re-birthed believer, through the power of the Holy Spirit working through that person's life.  Good fruit.  I agree, works (submission, obedience) will be judged, but not as "unto salvation".

It seems James did preach about works, likely as a counter-teaching against those taking license to abuse grace and live carnally, in licentiousness.  And those folks were already within the body, believers, having been made a child of God through belief on Jesus' name.  Paul himself addressed the distortion of his teaching in verses like Romans 6:1 and Galatians 5:13.  But Paul never said anything about salvation being of works, thought he did say good works were present and good - just not as a way to salvation.  And I believe James was making a point about just giving lip service and/or using justification by grace as an excuse to live like the devil.  Compare and contrast, point/counterpoint. 

Well, anyway, all that said, I guess the real issue of this thread is somehow working to achieve justification for the lost dead.  And I just am not seeing it.   :Peace2:  Also, I don't believe it's an essential doctrine of the faith, but if it's important to anyone else, hash it out further  :dsunny:

[Ross]

I.M.O no doubt grace without works is dead; but whose works? - mine or Christ's.
For me to live IS Christ to die IS gain.
No longer I who lives but Christ Who lives in me.
ONE faith- Christ's.
One hope, one Lord one faith, one baptism- Christ. His work was/is complete.
1 Cor 12;18,19 " But as it is God arranged the members in the body, EVERY ONE OF THEM JUST AS HE CHOSE.
                         If they were all a single member where would the body be?"

1 Cor 12;24,25 " BUT GOD HAS ARRANGED THE BODY,
                        giving greater honour to the member that lacked it, so there would be NO DIVISION IN THE BODY,
                        but that members WOULD HAVE THE SAME CARE FOR ONE ANOTHER."

1 Cor 12;27 "Now you are Christ's body and each of you a member of that body."

[Dandelion]

:2thumbs:  Grace.  Grace, not works.  Lest any man should boast.


It does not depend on him who runs or wills, but on God who shows mercy.  Romans 9:16

No worries, jabcat, I have no thoughts that works save anyone. My thoughts were about our ability to say no to God, believing that we can only say yes with the help of the Holy Spirit, versus how much of our salvation is solely accomplished by His will for us.

Ephesians 2: 8-10

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.

Amen and Amen.        :dsunny:

[jabcat]

:2thumbs:  Grace.  Grace, not works.  Lest any man should boast.


It does not depend on him who runs or wills, but on God who shows mercy.  Romans 9:16

No worries, jabcat, I have no thoughts that works save anyone.

Oh yeah, I knew that.  That's why the 2 thumbs up. :)

You know, someone really should nail that on a door somewhere.  LOL  ;)