why I sometimes doubt UR...

[anti_nietzsche]

It's the passages in the bible where God is harsh, where he kills. It's the wars in the OT. When God creates warfare with so much death then why should he care about eternal life? That's why I think a Universalist must also be against most kinds but the real defensive and desperate wars (like ww2). But they're in the bible. So does the book not speak the truth here? Depends how we read the book. In ancient times, my God had to be stronger than your God. He had to be more brutal, more scary, more angry. Then he could be seen as a mighty God. A softie God nobody wanted to have. That's also why some people reject Jesus. Too softie for them. Too loving. Remember that Jesus said the Jews hadn't seen God. And that grace and truth came through HIM, not through Moses. Just read the Law of Moses and you will see how happy we can be that Jesus replaced it with his law of agape love. If we have love we can believe in UR, because love is the biggest ingredient of salvation. When God Himself is love - why are we doubting still?

[Dandelion]

This is how I think of it.....perhaps my thinking is faulty. I am not sure. I certainly never heard a Pastor or preacher talk about this one. Never heard it mentioned in one of my Bible Study classes. Never even remember hearing it spoken about on Christian radio.

My 'theory' thus far is that physical death does not have the same impact to God, as it does to us, as humans. All people die, at their appointed time. It seems most of us suffer before death, from one cause or another.....sickness, war, someone else's evil doings, and so on. To God, death is a transition.....nothing more. He sees and knows us on both sides of death. And, He loves us on both sides.....whatever we have done.

I believe that when we die, we will see this lifetime as a mere blink of an eye; the snap of a finger. Next to the enormous sea of eternity, our time here will not even amount to a drop of water. And, I believe, that is how God sees it....in His infinite wisdom.

Perhaps, as you say, ancient people had to be dealt with with concepts and ways they could relate to.

I am hoping someone wiser in the ways of God comes along and helps me out here.                 :Chinscratch:

I think you hit the nail on the head in your last sentence. When God Himself is love - why are we doubting still?

D.

[DanielB]

"My 'theory' thus far is that physical death does not have the same impact to God, as it does to us, as humans. All people die, at their appointed time. It seems most of us suffer before death, from one cause or another.....sickness, war, someone else's evil doings, and so on. To God, death is a transition.....nothing more. He sees and knows us on both sides of death. And, He loves us on both sides.....whatever we have done. "

Maybe, but I am pretty sure God considers death to be an enemy. What bothers me is the people who had to live with what was allegedyl ordered. Why would God order people to kill their "brothers, friends, and neighbors" or children, defenseless "innocent" people, babies, etc?

I honestly doubt some of the OT and have a hard time even taking it seriously(as far as the wars, massacres, and sacrifices are concerned). My attitude when reading those parts is just "that didn't really happen". It is not even that I outright deny it(I do at least mentally assent to it very possibly being inspired and I don't want to just brush it all off or throw out the baby with the bathwater).

I do know that...
1. If we are to accept it as inspired, we must either stop taking those parts at face value or stop taking what it says about Jesus at face value.(Hopefully the right choice is obvious)

2. Imagine what sort of man or woman would order those things... God is nothing at all like such a person. He doesn't throw people under the bus and brush it off with handwaves or platitudes like Americans(or any nation) in war. All the people are loved by God and I don't think we can appreciate how much he loves them. He doesn't harden/numb himself to them. Anyone(including fighters on both sides) dieing in a war or massacre is like Jesus being killed or worse(since God evidently would rather face death so we don't have to).

3. When it comes to sacrifices, imagine what sort of god would be pleased with sacrifices or asks for sacrifices... God is nothing like the god that is imagined(even if he did tell people to sacrifice, it must have been for reasons and with a heart different than we might imagine). And if Jesus ever killed an animal or consented to such a thing, I assume it was done with their consent/desire since it is unthinkable that God has less compassion on those "insignificant" innocent little creatures than I do or that he would terrorize/torment some poor creature(I doubt he loves or values them less than he does us or himself. Will God love only a little? I don't think so!) Blood/bloodshed would not symbolize the same things for God than it would for other religions or even for than it would for hebrews.

4. I am not very skeptical or not skeptical at all of some stuff that seems atrocious to others like the destruction of Sodom. Ordering people to kill others is not merciful but for God to kill a city like Sodom(apparently instantaneously) may be merciful considering how much evil they had fallen into(to the point that their earthly lives would not be worthwhile to them and full of misery and dishonor). It is not as if God were killing a friendly community of homosexuals as some people seem to think. That being said, the stuff I mentioned in my second point applies here so I don't want to assume that God would rationalize it like I would.

[DanielB]

I am completely convinced of Jesus though and would remain convinced even if I were to lose faith in all but the gospels(but I am easily convinced of the NT and the OT except for the horrific seeming parts).

George Macdonald has good advice. Here is a very loose paraphrase(I can't remember the exact wording) if I understand correctly "Do not accept anything about God that you can only see as darkness(or can not see as pure and good). It would be better to deny that something happened(even if it did happen) than to accept its reality while denying the reality of God's goodness along with it."

I think we should have the humility to admit that we are not perfectly wise and omnicient and virtuous so we may be misguided in our doubts but we are not obligated to accept that God is brutal, spiteful, unloving, or cold if the bible seems to say so. We are obligated to not believe what we see until/unless we can find a way to fully reconcile it with God's goodness. That could be a slippery slope for some people(if they are more concerned about rationalizing their actions and desires rather than what is true and loving) but it would still be worse to just believe God is cruel from mistaken interpretations.

[jabcat]

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/

[darryl]

nothing wrong with voicing questions, even doubts..in my opinion...even if people are censored or restricted in what they can say or question...deep down they till have their questions and doubts..I do not feel Scripture is above being questioned...there's plenty in the OT I 'question'..I do not understand why God would apparently ordered the extermination of an entire people group in the OT except to offer that there's a lot more to it than meets the eye (or brain when reading it) ...it's pretty hard to defend it as a lot of Christians do, the killing of little children etc...that's where UR comes in...these Canaanites who were apparently killed all ultimately receive eternal life...that helps a lot.

[jabcat]

nothing wrong with voicing questions, even doubts..I do not feel Scripture is above being questioned...

Questioning why, trying to understand, is different than suggesting we can't take the scriptures as inspired- suggesting that the problem is scripture and that the veracity of scripture itself should be questioned, rather than translation or our own interpretation (mind's work)...that's why the link, and I believe it's pretty detailed and clear. 

It may be a fine line [the link is a reminder/guide], and we all have questions/problematic areas we don't understand.  But as the mod statement says, scripture, rightly translated, Spirit revealed is the default position at TM regarding discussion, and that our exploration and discussion here is WITHIN the scriptures.   We have years of evidence of why this expectation is important in the discussion forum.

[jabcat]

I agree this is one of the real keys;

that's where UR comes in...these Canaanites who were apparently killed all ultimately receive eternal life...that helps a lot.

I probably struggle as much as most.  Faith, acceptance, surrender, trust - those things don't come easy to me.  If accurately translated scriptures say something that don't set well with me, or I have a hard time accepting it, I can certainly feel frustration, anger, rebellion.

But I don't believe that should keep me from accepting and loving God however and Whoever He says and shows He is.   I kind of figure the problem is with me;  my attitudes, heart, thoughts, lack of understanding/revelation etc., and that I need to go before Him for help and to trust Him.  Easier said than done, but I believe that's a good target to shoot for.   :thumbsup:

[Ross]

1 Cor 15;19 " If our hope in Christ is only for this life, of all men we are to be pitied most."

How do we learn things?
As a child we have to go through things to learn from the experience.
As a child I remember doubting what my dad was doing and could not grasp the reasons why. Even doubted his decisions.
Paul himself says,
                        " When I was a child I thought like a child, talked like a child, reasoned like a child.
                           When I became a man I set aside my childish ways.
                           For now we are looking at the present obscurely through a mirror, but then face to face.
                           Now I know in part; then I will know fully, JUST AS I HAVE BEEN FULLY KNOWN."

As an adult I now see why and have deepened my respect for him.
God is greater than my dad, and is working to a superior standard with a permanent position for us all.

[jugghead]

Because I believe that every physical example that took place in the OT is not only an example of something Jesus did while He walked this earth but also that they are examples of what takes place in each of us in our own thought process

For example, the example of Uzzah being struck dead when he touched the ark to keep it from falling, is that a picture of Peter being rebuked by Jesus and being called Satan because he didn't want Jesus to fall (die)

Jesus struck that thought dead in the mind of Peter through the rebuke

For me, all those people in the OT who were struck dead by God died so that I could understand every little detail about what is taking place inside of me between the flesh and the spirit

my  :2c: but something to think about

[jabcat]

..and those are a couple of shots towards the target  :Peace2:

[DanielB]

To be clear, I don't deny inspiration and I am not trying to encourage others to do so. I was Just expressing that I have a hard time believing some of the stuff at an emotional level and that at a deeper level I don't think it can all be interpreted at face value all the time. I just argue that if you /I are reading the Bible and can't reconcile what you/I(subjectively) see with what you/I know of goodness, you/I should assume you/I are reading it wrong or that you/I don't understand goodness and are therefore in no position to be coming to conclusions about what God is like. I do see it as inspired, but I haven't found a way to interpret it(the parts we are discussing) that I am satisfied with yet so I guess it just feels like unbelief in the absence of an acceptable interpretation. I only hesitate to believe a face value interpretation because I don't think it would be right for someone in my shoes to attribute what I see to God. If I knew 100% that it was from God and that God ordered all those things, I think I could easily accept that because I would know it was done out of love and that God sees all the big picture stuff and that he does no evil. There have been non-face value approaches throughout history that have been commonly accepted in christianity. I still have been reading through the old testament and I really don't like reading so I do place a lot of value in it and still believe in it.

[jabcat]

good clarification/explanation.  i think there are things most of us struggle with, but as you and others are indicating, "let God be true and every man [which includes me/my carnal/fleshly mind and reasonings] a liar".  sometimes i actually think we know little, and not to dismiss deeper things, but sometimes I believe it's best to remember the basics.  :)   The cross and the empty tomb.

[marie glen]

Please forgive any typos I'm finishing up st a laundromat and havevto get home with hunts supper and chores after that..

Those are some great posts.. I Especially agree with Jabcat -

I agree this is one of the real keys;

that's where UR comes in...these Canaanites who were apparently killed all ultimately receive eternal life...that helps a lot.

I probably struggle as much as most.  Faith, acceptance, surrender, trust - those things don't come easy to me.  If accurately translated scriptures say something that don't set well with me, or I have a hard time accepting it, I can certainly feel frustration, anger, rebellion.

But I don't believe that should keep me from accepting and loving God however and Whoever He says and shows He is.   I kind of figure the problem is with me;  my attitudes, heart, thoughts, lack of understanding/revelation etc., and that I need to go before Him for help and to trust Him.  Easier said than done, but I believe that's a good target to shoot for.   :thumbsup:

....that if there's a problem it's always me.. (that's true with a computer too.. always me/human error :laughing7:

I've come to think of it as God's very important work.. it may sound cold to some, but I figure it's like a garden.. in order to get the specific garden you want you have to be very strict and diligent as to just what is growing in the garden.. let those weeds go.. and oh boy!! (And this is experience talking.. I have had to chop down some tall hardy weeds before when I neglected my garden!)

Like the flood, when God says every thought of all was constantly evil.. I believe that was true.. they were wirshippongbother 'gods' after all, which we know, or I believe the scripture says are demons.

So had there not been the flood, I believe mankind would have self sestructed long long ago.. and something I think about is He knows all things.. knew all who would and could be potentially born.. had mankind self destructed long ago, where would you and I be?

And the laws given to Moses were only for Israel, to preserve some small place where the savior of the world could be born.. now I think Christianity changed the world and humanity quite a bit.. not as barbaric

I have, in myself come to the conclusion that He has done everything just the way He has - in order to bring about the very best of every possible 'end' result possible.

And doubting.. I agree he is love so why need we doubt.. love never fails- I love that.. realized that through aster Dandelion..

Like Ross said.. how do we all Kleenex? What!? How did auto correct come up with that? How do we learn?.. try telling folks something.  Do we learn it? Not usually.. lately I think of Him as being utterly alwonderful.. and he's Almighty.. and perfect.. perfect makes no mistakes can lose nothing.. but most of all , love never, ever fails., and yes this life will be as a fleeting moment one 'day'
:HeartThrob: :girlheart:

[jabcat]

Great post as usual marie.    :thumbsup:

But I'm with you..how do we all Kleenex?   :LH:   :friendstu: 

[marie glen]

 

  :laugh2:  ..I see now too that sister Dandelion according to my typo is now two flowers.. :faint:

[Ross]

How do we learn?.. try telling folks something.  Do we learn it? Not usually.. lately I think of Him as being utterly alwonderful.. and he's Almighty.. and perfect.. perfect makes no mistakes can lose nothing.. but most of all , love never, ever fails., and yes this life will be as a fleeting moment one 'day'
:HeartThrob: :girlheart:

Right on!!
Eph 3;20 " Now to Him Who IS ABLE TO DO FAR MORE ABUNDANTLY THAN WE ASK OR IMAGINE,
                 according to the power THAT IS WORKING WITHIN US."

There are plenty of imaginative visions of how man should live and why we are here; yet God is able to go beyond our visions and/or abilities. I'd rather follow His  perspective and version of love, than mans' ideas along with mans' attempts at love.
Still need to make those attempts to appreciate the reality of true love as demonstrated by our creator. For the creator to die for us is the ultimate display of considering what to really value is not the temporary stuff, but the things to come which exceed the temporary considerably.