The Son of God

[Abigail]

I have to do with universalists who do not believe Jesus is God (although they believe He is the Son of God). I believe the deity of Christ is essential to the gospel.
One scripture they use is 1 Timothy 2:5.
'For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus'
Any thoughts?

[CHB]

This is just the way I understand it all.

Jesus is God but he is not God the Father. John Smith is a Smith but he isn't George Smith which is John's father. There is only one God the Father. Here is another verse. (1Cor. 11:3) the head of Christ is God. Also, (John 10:33-34) Jesus was telling them that He called them gods... I believe,  because they were children of God.  (Eph. 3:14-15) Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named.
We are all gods, like Paul said there are many gods and lords. I don't see how Jesus could be God the Father but I do believe he is God the Son. Jesus is called our brother because we and him are all God's children.

CHB

[jugghead]

Just have one question, can you be both a father and a son at the same time?

[Dandelion]

i definitely believe that Jesus is God. If He were not God, He could not be a perfect sacrifice; if He were not human, He could not represent us, and give His life as the price for humanity's salvation......He had to be both God and Man to satisfy God's justice.......as well as His mercy.

D.

[Abigail]

Well, they say He is the Son of God, but not God the Son.
I do not mean to say Jesus is the Father, but that He is God and not merely a man.
Some even  suggest He might be an angel.

[jugghead]

How I understand it is this: it is seeing the difference between Jesus Christ and Christ Jesus, we know that it is used both ways in the NT

Jesus is the man, Christ is God

Jesus Christ = the man (Jesus), the anointed one (Christ), who He became while He walked this earth and who He was before He walked this earth

Christ Jesus = the anointed one (Christ), the man (Jesus), who He was before He walked this earth and who He became when He did walk this earth and again became when He returned to His former glory

It is understanding the difference between "to" and "for"

Jesus Christ became a teacher "to" us (the man anointed, how we see Him first)..... Christ Jesus became the anointed one "to" us AND "for" us (the anointed man/sacrifice, how we now see Him and how The Father has always seen Him)

And ..... if Christ is(=) God ... and ... God is(=) the Father ... why doesn't Christ is(=) the Father make sense if they are one in the same?

It is how God has always seen Himself, the Father who would become the Son "for" mankind so mankind could be a son "to" the Father

Don't know if that makes sense to you guys, but that is what I understand

[Dandelion]

Here it is in scripture that Jesus is God.

Isaiah 9:

New International Version
1Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—

2The people walking in darkness
have seen a great light;
on those living in the land of deep darkness
a light has dawned.
3You have enlarged the nation
and increased their joy;
they rejoice before you
as people rejoice at the harvest,
as warriors rejoice
when dividing the plunder.
4For as in the day of Midian's defeat,
you have shattered
the yoke that burdens them,
the bar across their shoulders,
the rod of their oppressor.
5Every warrior's boot used in battle
and every garment rolled in blood
will be destined for burning,
will be fuel for the fire.
6For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

D.

[jugghead]

Yep, good going Dandelion

verse 6 even says that the son given will be called the Everlasting Father

[CHB]

Couldn't Jesus be referred to as our father since he is our creator? Jesus said he came from/or out of his Father, is why Christ is the firstborn. What does firstborn mean?  Jesus always gave his father all the glory and praise. If God the father is the head of Christ, which means he is greater, how can Jesus be his own father? 

CHB

[jugghead]

Couldn't Jesus be referred to as our father since he is our creator? Jesus said he came from/or out of his Father, is why Christ is the firstborn. What does firstborn mean?  Jesus always gave his father all the glory and praise. If God the father is the head of Christ, which means he is greater, how can Jesus be his own father? 

CHB

It is understanding that Jesus is the Word of God, what is born out of Himself, He gives birth to Himself through word, when God speaks He is giving birth to a part of Himself, the more He speaks the more He is formed outside of Himself (and in us), Jesus was the full manifestation of the words (word) of God in the flesh (and in all that He created and made)

In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God ..... and the Word became flesh

but you already knew this

[eaglesway]

We have had several outbreaks of the Godhead debate on this site. They have proven divisive and generally unfruitful. There is no clear systematic explanation of the Godhead in the scriptures. It is a matter for interpretation.

What Paul said is this.....


8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Salvation is not about understanding things that are not yet fully revealed or things that the Roman Catholic church invented or things that the Protestant Reformers set in stone. The salvation of all is not dependent on any particular view of the exact construction and orientation of the Godhead, so my feeling is to lock the thread before we get to the usual place of contention, but I will wait to see what my fellow moderators think about it.

I hav known beautiful, fruitful believers in about every view on the Godhead. I have fellowshipped in Modalist(Oneness), Trinitarian, and Biblical Unitarian churches.

My opinion is that no one fully understands the godhead.

Who has known the mind of the Lord,
Who has been His counselor?

God is far above the little doctrinal boxes we try put Him in.

Personally I find the discussion of the Godhead to be interesting and invigorating, but in the past it has not been a successful experiment when we have opened it up.

[eaglesway]

We have had several outbreaks of the Godhead debate on this site. They have proven divisive and generally unfruitful. There is no clear systematic explanation of the Godhead in the scriptures. It is a matter for interpretation.

What Paul said is this.....


8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Salvation is not about understanding things that are not yet fully revealed or things that the Roman Catholic church invented or things that the Protestant Reformers set in stone. The salvation of all is not dependent on any particular view of the exact construction and orientation of the Godhead, so my feeling is to lock the thread before we get to the usual place of contention, but I will wait to see what my fellow moderators think about it.

I hav known beautiful, fruitful believers in about every view on the Godhead. I have fellowshipped in Modalist(Oneness), Trinitarian, and Biblical Unitarian churches.

My opinion is that no one fully understands the godhead.

Who has known the mind of the Lord,
Who has been His counselor?

God is far above the little doctrinal boxes we try put Him in.

Personally I find the discussion of the Godhead to be interesting and invigorating, but in the past it has not been a successful experiment when we have opened it up.

[jugghead]

I apologize, didn't even realize that was what I was doing,  :eek:

to me ..... I was just speaking of how I understand things

[eaglesway]

No apologies necessary jugghead :o) I have no problem with the discussion itself, or anyones opinion on it.  I just jumped in early because it usually gets out of hand quickly and it is one of two or three subjects that usually gets into heated debate. It seems to be something very few people can discuss dispassionately and in an attitude of fellowship and scholarship. :dontknow:

[CHB]

Sorry EW I will end my discussion on this as of now.  :Peace2: I agree with you that we should never get into a heated debate on any issue. I just like discussing things, usually someone else can say something that is new to the way I see things that changes my mind. :friendstu:

You mentioned all the different religions that saw this differently. I was thinking that probably 90% of those who believe in UR started out in different denominations. It is like starting in first grade and when we get to the point of believing in UR we are in College. When Christ returns we will graduate.  :banana:   

CHB

[Abigail]

Thanks for your thoughts. I wasn't aware this has been a subject of heated discussions on the board, so Yes, it is a wise decision to stop the thread.

[jabcat]

Yeah, it's ok if the thread dies peacefully  :laugh:, or if has life for awhile.  Just this

discuss dispassionately and in an attitude of fellowship and scholarship.

:thumbsup:

[eaglesway]

Yeah, it's ok if the thread dies peacefully  :laugh:, or if has life for awhile.  Just this

discuss dispassionately and in an attitude of fellowship and scholarship.

:thumbsup:

Exactly! :o)

[deeplyloved]

1 Tim 2:5 from The Source Translation New Testament.
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and people, the person of the Anointed One Jesus".

As I understand it Jesus, the human, as a person had all authority based on what he saw the Father do/say. He is Fully God, fully man; now, as our resurrected and ascended Savior! He took dominion as our Savior to remedy the sin in the garden and to bring about and restore all that was lost. In a physical sense, He was the Father's Ambassador as we, too, are ambassadors of Kingdom responsibilities here on earth...though not God, we're but carriers, clay vessels. "Without God, we cannot, without us He will not" John Wesley.

For a much fuller explanation you might check out Myles Munroe's Kingdom Authority on earth thru your Body and Prayer on youtube.
God's Richest Blessings!

[marie glen]

Well, they say He is the Son of God, but not God the Son.
I do not mean to say Jesus is the Father, but that He is God and not merely a man.
Some even  suggest He might be an angel.

I think this sort of thing happens with Universalists when they get the mistaken idea that it's God's Word that's faulty and not one's understanding of God's Word that is faulty.. even translations in His Word.. So in effect, they carry out the proverbial "throwing out the baby with the bathwater".. Totally not necessary.. Some CU folks, in some circles, talk a LOT of old time and present day 'spiritualism' or new age, which is actually old age.. and of course there's some threads of truth in new age and paganism (or the tapestry would fall apart all together?) And 'Christian' paganism was the gnostics; a loose collection of nonchristian belief/religion around long before the 'christian' gnostics.. But a Universalist need not be gnostic. Nor need to be at odds with God's Word.. Such is too bad, for ET Christians will NEVER listen to new age type christians.. If we can't show it in the Word, there's no sense. But I'm straying a little.. :laughing7:

I believe Jesus is the only straight out from God one and will be "forever preeminent". So close as to be one in nature, substance, character and essence.. Jesus prayed "may they be one as You and I are one". It makes me a little googley eyed/minded when folks say the Son is the Father.. or they are so one, that Jesus was praying to Himself.. and He didn't say things like "the Father is greater than I"

That He was an angel, is a Jehovah Witness idea, I believe.. or is it the Mormons? :dontknow: the idea that Jesus was Michael the arch angel.. but Jesus is the "firstborn" of aLL creation..

But all this is as babes.. trying to find truth and faith.. Won't it be awesome when truth alone is left standing..

....and of course, faith in multiple 'gods' is a pagan belief and not biblical.. I guess I don't really understand all the different ideas people have about the nature of the Father and Son..

[jugghead]

Something that popped into my head as I was reading these posts was "crucified before the foundation of the world"

Is this a picture of what God did to Himself, first in His own mind and then in the world.

We know that death is the separation of the spirit from the body

We also know that God is Spirit

Did God separate Himself into God the Father (Spirit of the Word) and God the Son (Word became flesh/body)? Like bread and wine in communion?

We know that the Spirit is greater than the flesh/body, the builder has more honor than the house

Is this what Jesus understood when praying to His Father, that the Spirit of the Word (Father) is greater than the Word in the flesh (the Son) and then He would return to His former glory when He returned once again to be ONE with the Spirit of the Word (His Father)

just some thoughts

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Here is how I currently understand it. God is a Spirit, and all seeds reproduce after their own kind according to the law of the seed, which cannot be broken. So therefore, Christ the man of Spirit, is the Spirit Seed of the Father.

This is why it was said pointedly of Abraham's SEED, that it was ONE SEED, not many, that Seed being the Spirit Seed Son of Christ, to whom the promise was made by the Father.

They are one, as Father is the Head, and Christ is the body, the same way we are one with Christ, which is essentially what Jesus (who only spoke what He heard His Father speak) said when He prayed that we be made one with Him, EVEN AS, He and His Father are one. How many believe He gets what He prays for?  :winkgrin: He does, which is evident in the other teachings.

And this is why He said to the Pharisees, if you were of Abraham's SEED, then you would know Me, because He was speaking what He heard the FATHER say to them, at that moment. Because had they had Abraham's Seed of Christ, it is HE, that knows the Father. Because NO MAN, has at any time seen G-d, because flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Blessings...

[Ross]

A matter of interest, for me anyway;
Look what kind of love the Father has given us;
That we may be called the sons of God, and such we are.
The reason the world does not know us is because it does not know Him.
Dear friends, at the present time WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD.

For all those being led by the spirit of god who are the sons of God.
The spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
and if children, then heirs of God and FELLOW HEIRS WITH CHRIST.

Nice statements.