Our Father is eternal, unconditional, unchanging Love.

[darryl]

Could a just God give people just a brief moment in time to live(all flesh is as grass) and then torment them forever for the sins they committed in life? Could He choose some to be forgiven and some to be tormented eternally- when He bound the whole creation in futility(Romans 8) and bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?

God,bound all in disobedience(Ro 11)?...wow, so God deemed and decreed all to be sinners ?...an interesting concept

It amazes me that our heavenly Father by the words "I the LORD create good and create evil" - by this He takes responsibility! [I figure He engineered it so, thus in effect creating evil.. As otherwise why create the universe and man and woman when the adversary's rebellious ruminating was fully mature??

And with His taking and claiming the responsibility.. why would "His justice" demand anyone perish (or worse!!).. No, He paid the ransom, as it's called, and "...while we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son" Romans 5:10

yup...makes sense to me.......after all, doesnt it say in the OT it never entered Gods mind to burn folks in fire like the pagan god Molech did ?...i think we, the evangelical church, have God all wrong...doesnt Jesus say 'everyone will be salted with fire' ? (thats EVERYBODY ) ....maybe the fire is the fire of God's love n holiness burning the rotten sin out folks,leaving pure gold,,,thats what my friend says..i suspect hes closer to the mark than God burning ppl alive n torturing them forever.

[jugghead]

We must also be careful not to make God like us, but for us to become like God.

D.

Amen to that Dandelion ...... this is part of what I wrote in the first chapter of the book I am writing:

     The nature of mankind is always, with words, or actions, to have the greatest impact on the person who is being spoken to. When just words do not have an impact on someone, an action or a threat of action will usually do the trick, especially a threat of pain or death towards another. But it doesn't even have to be a threat against you; it can be a threat against someone you love. Evil men use these tactics to get what they want; they threaten others with death or pain to get what they want. To say that God uses these tactics to get what He wants is to say that He is no different than the evil men of this world.

     We also understand that parents use these tactics on their children, a milder form of course, in trying to teach them right from wrong while they are growing up; a threat of a spanking, or a time out or the taking away of something for a period of time. This too is saying that God is no better than any parent in this world because even parents who do not believe in God do these things.

     Even our court system with all its laws are the same way, a threat of being thrown in jail (a loss of freedom) or even a threat of death (a loss of life) in some states. How is it that we can believe that God has not come up with a better way than what we see in this world everywhere all around us every day?

Amen.. that was Old Testament ways, proving it doesn't work! ..Not that I'm for anarchy.. some baser sorts, I hate to say it, do need the fear of retribution.. or that is, of getting caught.. but that's just to attempt to keep others safe, and streets a bit safer.. it doesn't transform the inner person / change the heart.. even if it seems to have done that.. it's the Spirit that brings repentance and change..

Yes I agree in the binding of the flesh (imprisonment) so it cannot hurt others anymore, but we can also forgive their spirit in our own hearts for what they did and speak the words of Christ "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"

men can speak of rehabilitation, but when it comes to the bottom line, if it is not profitable, it is the first thing to go

And the problem even with that idea is; men of the flesh trying to rehabilitate other men of the flesh, it doesn't matter whether you are inside the prison or outside the prison, the flesh cannot change itself.

[jugghead]

Hey darryl ..... I agree with what your friend says

[darryl]

Hey darryl ..... I agree with what your friend says

:thumbsup:

[marie glen]

...doesnt it say in the OT it never entered Gods mind to burn folks in fire like the pagan god Molech did ?...i think we, the evangelical church, have God all wrong...doesnt Jesus say 'everyone will be salted with fire' ? (thats EVERYBODY ) ....maybe the fire is the fire of God's love n holiness burning the rotten sin out folks,leaving pure gold,,,thats what my friend says..i suspect hes closer to the mark than God burning ppl alive n torturing them forever.

You can say thAt again!!

"leaving them pure gold" :thumbsup: :thumbsup: amen, refined away - that selfish nature "sarx - G4561 self, the human nature not yet regenerated"

[eaglesway]

This is just my opinion, food for thought so to speak.

Rather than God making all men sinners, I believe He foreknew our response to the choice in the garden, foreknew the sacrifice of His son and foreknew all the outcomes of all the paths and never had a thought that it might not turn out for anyone. This is a form of predestination imo but not one based in control..... it is based in the idea that love is so superior to all else it(He) must eventually swallow up everything else, so because all will eventually see Him as the Lamb("we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is"), all will eventually bow the knee and rejoice in His presence- and all will learn to be as He is in the process family and friends within "the glorious liberty of the children of God"(Ro 8). "For freedom Christ has set you free"  "Those who the Son sets free will be free indeed".

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Romans 8:29

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
      To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 1 Peter 1

[jugghead]

This is just my opinion, food for thought so to speak.

Rather than God making all men sinners, I believe He foreknew our response to the choice in the garden, foreknew the sacrifice of His son and foreknew all the outcomes of all the paths and never had a thought that it might not turn out for anyone. This is a form of predestination imo but not one based in control..... it is based in the idea that love is so superior to all else it(He) must eventually swallow up everything else, so because all will eventually see Him as the Lamb("we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is"), all will eventually bow the knee and rejoice in His presence- and all will learn to be as He is in the process family and friends within "the glorious liberty of the children of God"(Ro 8). "For freedom Christ has set you free"  "Those who the Son sets free will be free indeed".

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Romans 8:29

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
      To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. 1 Peter 1

I agree EW, especially with what I highlighted .... not just a matter of superiority but of power (which I know that thought was there also) ...... Being in the presence of the Father and the Son (which are One) ..... is no different than being next to the sun with a shield between you and the sun, but remove that shield, and all flesh cannot help but be destroyed leaving only that which is of God.

I don't know if you see it in the same way as I do, but I see ..... His foreknowledge IS His wisdom

[eaglesway]

Absolutely! Love that.

His foreknowledge is His wisdom.

In Hebrews 6, where the writer of Hebrews talks about the foundation, the last thing in the list "eternal judgment". Most teach that this is about condemnation and eternal torment, but I think it is about God's reasons for all that He has done, the "whys" in His whysdom through out the ages(krimatos aioniou) .

33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments(krimata) and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him [be] the glory forever. Amen.
"In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth."
Eph 1:9-11

"Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith; 27 to the only wise God, through Jesus Christ, be the glory forever. Amen." Romans 16:25-27

[jabcat]

That word "bound" is an interesting word;

Original Word: συγκλείω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sugkleió
Phonetic Spelling: (soong-kli'-o)

Definition: enclose, shut in, make subject to.

[jabcat]

Different ways it's translated;


New International Version
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

New Living Translation
For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

English Standard Version
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Berean Study Bible
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

Berean Literal Bible
For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all.

New American Standard Bible
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

King James Bible
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.

International Standard Version
For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

NET Bible
For God has consigned all people to disobedience so that he may show mercy to them all.

New Heart English Bible
For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God has shut every person into disobedience so that he shall have mercy upon every person.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.

New American Standard 1977
For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For God enclosed everyone in disobedience, that he might have mercy upon everyone.

King James 2000 Bible
For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

American King James Version
For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all.

American Standard Version
For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For God hath concluded all in unbelief, that he may have mercy on all.

Darby Bible Translation
For God hath shut up together all in unbelief, in order that he might shew mercy to all.

English Revised Version
For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.

Webster's Bible Translation
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Weymouth New Testament
For God has locked up all in the prison of unbelief, that upon all alike He may have mercy.

World English Bible
For God has shut up all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all.

Young's Literal Translation
for God did shut up together the whole to unbelief, that to the whole He might do kindness.



Then, the interlinear renders the 2nd part, the part about disobedience/unbelief as "UN-PERSUADableness/stubbornness".  That's interesting too.  TO ME, that sounds like it could be a little different than unbelief??  More of a condition of probability, susceptibility?   :dontknow:

The Christian Bible (extremely literal) uses "locked up", but also "unpersuadableness". 
For God has locked up all together in view of their unpersuadableness, so that He might show mercy to all.


All that said, the end of all of them is "God showing mercy to all".   :Peace2:

[jugghead]

Then, the interlinear renders the 2nd part, the part about disobedience/unbelief as "UN-PERSUADableness/stubbornness".  That's interesting too.  TO ME, that sounds like it could be a little different than unbelief??  More of a condition of probability, susceptibility?   :dontknow:

The Christian Bible (extremely literal) uses "locked up", but also "unpersuadableness". 
For God has locked up all together in view of their unpersuadableness, so that He might show mercy to all.


All that said, the end of all of them is "God showing mercy to all".   :Peace2:

Yes there is a difference between "unbelief" and "unpersuadableness" ...... it has to do with movement

Unbelief is what you already know (what men or yourself has convinced you of)

Unpersuadableness is being told something different by the Spirit and being unable to move from that unbelief; in other words ..... unable to move from what you already know

Which also relates to ..... you are unable to grow in understanding

It is understanding the word "conflict" ..... it you believe something is true and than told by someone else (Or God) something different, it will always cause a conflict and the easiest thing to do is kill the new and remain where you are .....

and the biggest enemy in all this is PRIDE ..... no one wants to admit they are wrong because it makes them look foolish

and YES jabcat you hit it on the head with it is a condition; unpersuadableness is a condition of unbelief

The best way to describe the difference is this: unbelief is the prison cell you are locked up in AND you cannot be persuaded that you are free, therefore are unable to move into that freedom

my  :2c:

[jugghead]

also wanted to add, using EW's favorite

If the soul believes it is a sinner, the spirit cannot move into freedom

it is the separation of the flesh and the spirit in the mind, the mind has to be renewed

It is also understanding day one in Genesis, you are of the darkness and then light appears, so now you are of darkness and light, but when light is separated from the darkness you move with the light leaving darkness behind

This process takes place over and over again in that darkness is our flesh mindset and then a spirit mindset (light) appears and when we are separated from the darkness in one understanding the darkness appears again because there are still things of the flesh in our soul ..... this is what Paul called the renewing of the mind, going from darkness into light with each understanding

but I know you knew these things already