Abhor Gehenna, all flesh "the whole"

[marie glen]

A good cross reference for Jesus' words about Gehenna " where the worm does not die or the fire quenched" - Isaiah 66:24 (last verse of Isaiah) says the same thing..

The bodies, the worm will not die. The Hebrew ("worm") includes "crimson" - " though your sins be like scarlet.."

The verse says it will be an abhorring forever unto "all" flesh, the Hebrew "the whole". (So apparently some flesh will not remain as the abhorrence.)

Or that would be how I would take it..

[Lazarus Short]

A funny thing happens on the way to the proper word choice, and theology so often turns the choice in the wrong direction.  :footmouth:  What would an ancient Hebrew make of, for instance, "Whale meat again," not knowing it is a play on words?  :doh:

[eaglesway]

I think "where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" is similar to "You shall not get out till you have paid the last penny".

The worm eats the flesh until only spirit remains, the fire consumes darkness until only light remains.

I love Isaiah 64-66...awesome portal into the ages

Isaiah 64
Didst Thou not rend the heavens? Thou didst come down, From thy presence did mountains flow,

2(As fire kindleth stubble — Fire causeth water to boil,) To make known Thy name to Thine adversaries, From Thy presence do nations tremble.

3In Thy doing fearful things — we expect not, Thou didst come down, From Thy presence did mountains flow.

4Even from antiquity [men] have not heard, They have not given ear, Eye hath not seen a God save Thee, He doth work for those waiting for Him.
For, as the new heavens and the new earth that I am making, Are standing before Me, An affirmation of Jehovah! So remain doth your seed and your name.

Isaiah 65

17For, lo, I am creating new heavens, and a new earth, And the former things are not remembered, Nor do they ascend on the heart.

18But joy ye, and rejoice for ever, that I [am] Creator, For, lo, I am creating Jerusalem a rejoicing, And her people a joy.

Isaiah 66
23And it hath been from month to month, And from sabbath to sabbath, Come do all flesh to bow themselves before Me, Said Jehovah.

24And they have gone forth, And looked on the carcases of the men Who are transgressing against me, For their worm dieth not, And their fire is not quenched, And they have been an abhorrence to all flesh!

Fromm month to month, from Sabbath to Sabbath- a metaphor for the passing of time and the generations as all live and die and awaken frm sleep into the DAY- His Coming- for each death(the thief) brings them face to face with the DAY(His presence) which causes some to rejoice- some to cry out "Hide us from the face of the Lamb and the one who is on the throne"


Notice the similarity between 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelations 20 and Daniel 7;10 and then look at those verses in parallel with Phil 2:9-11 and 1 Cor 15:20-28....an interesting thematic picture arises.

What if....  when you read(Isaiah 66) of people looking upon the men of those who transgressed against Him(YLT"are transgressing against me" or....drum roll.... ADVERSARIES) as they go to bow the knee before Him(Phil 2 "whether in heaven or on earth or under the earth)....

these are all allusions to the "each in his own order" progression- as mankind awakens from sleep, some to rejoicing, some to pass before the fire of judgment- and then to bow the knee and then mercy.

This one great DAY, the day which has no evening or morning- it is an awakening for all, and all before His throne, some for mercy, some for "exposure and disclosure"(a two edged sword comes from His mouth dividing asunder soul and spirit and making manifest the thoughts and intentions of the heart- 'their consciences either accusing them or accusing them on the DAY when God judges the secrets of mens hearts through Jesus Christ Romans 1)

It is an awakening in stages- Jesus the firstborn from the dead, the firstfruits- all those who are already His when the Day dawns because for them it has already dawned in their hearts....

- then comes the end- where we see in several places all the dead come before Him and there is fire in His eyes, fire proceeding from His throne, fire and brimstone "in the presence of the Lord and His holy angels"------ all stages/elements of the one DAY as all awaken (AWAKE THOU THAT SLEEPEST AND ARISE FROM THE DEAD AND THE LIGHT OF CHRIST WILL SHINE ON YOU)

"every man's work will be tested by fire for the DAY shall reveal it"


Notice how Peter speaks of how the world that was was destroyed by water(always a symbol of death) but the world that is now is reserved for fire(always transforms), and when the "stoicheion-elementary principles/foundations" are burned up the world will become the tabernacle of righteousness----


2 Peter 3
for this is unobserved by them willingly, that the heavens were of old, and the earth out of water and through water standing together by the word of God, 6through which the then world, by water having been deluged, was destroyed; 7and the present heavens and the earth, by the same word are treasured, for fire being kept to a day of judgment and destruction of the impious men.

8And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; 9the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

10and it will come — the day of the Lord — as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.

11All these, then, being dissolved, what kind of persons doth it behove you to be in holy behaviours and pious acts? 12waiting for and hasting to the presence of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements(stoicheion) with burning heat shall melt; 13and for new heavens and a new earth according to His promise we do wait, in which righteousness doth dwell;


see this in parallel with 1 Cor 15:20-28 and "all rule, power and authority" being anulled, every adversary subjected and death anulled until God is all in all-----

also reference The Day of the Lord in
Zephaniah 1:7-18; 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11)

All of these things are clearly parallel pictures of a process through which God is setting the whole creation free from futility through the transformation of fire. We are the first in the fire, who believe. We are in it now and the DAY is already upon us, we are awake to it, we are not children of the night from whom the thief(death) steals all, because all our possession is Jesus and the kingdom of God- we are children of the Day and have already passed from death into life- but still the fire purges, tests, and purifies even the free will offering.

For those who are wicked and persist in preying upon the weak and persecuting the children of God there will be kolassis, awakening into judgment/discernment, the fearful visage of one whose eyes are as flames, whose face is like the sun, and out of whose mouth will come a two edged sword, and they will each be in that fire of exposure until they have payed the last penny, until they bow the knee and confess- come clean and receive His forgiveness with rejoicing.

The worm will not die- it will be transformed, the fire will not quench, it will simply burn until it is no longer fire, but the light and presence of God(in whom there is no darkness at all).  :2c:

[marie glen]

Amen! :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

I think, also, that phrases like "worm will not die" and "the smoke of it shall rise up forever" are also metaphor for this whole experience of the whole.. of all in heaven and earth (all angelkind and all mankind) ..the experience through life as we presently know it, imperfect and imperfection including even horror such as wars, etc (etc, etc!) is a lesson which will never ever be forgotten, but the smoke of it, in that sense, will rise up forever.. the memory of dead bodies of war causing all to thoroughly abhor imperfection, waywardness, disobedience, any and every tiny speck of it.

Even now, like so often before during these ages of imperfection, we can see things (collectively) are not right. Once again, collapse of what has not been built on the Rock, but upon sand, cannot endure, unless like Ninevah there is true repentance and change of course.

And by this lesson deeply learned and utterly understood by all, He is creating the new heavens and earth which has always been what He is building.

It drives me a bit crazy when folks seem to believe that some sort of error occurred. Error? How could that ever be possible? Then of course some folks think He will be barely able to save a fraction of mankind - to not even mention a very large number of angel's - from the supposed error which occurred and took Him by surprise. I mean really? How can anyone seriously believe any of that!?

We are SO blessed to know that He is utterly perfect, utterly all powerful.. all knowing, and is certainly all capable!

And.. just look at His Word alone.. so perfect.. speaks SO very much.. on so many levels (etc!) very able to communicate with all.. and a witness of how totally right He is! About all things, especially about disobedience, imperfection.. the whole ball of wax- "surely. In the day you eat if it, you shall die." Not meanness but an unavoidable truth. Oh the wonder of His wisdom.. and amen(!) the glory of what it is He is creating! :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

A funny thing happens on the way to the proper word choice, and theology so often turns the choice in the wrong direction.  :footmouth:  What would an ancient Hebrew make of, for instance, "Whale meat again," not knowing it is a play on words?  :doh:

Amen! Theology.. pre-perception turning translation /understanding in the wrong direction.

Today, doing some hoeing in the garden, I was thinking of the saying "nip it in the bud" - how much easier to uproot weeds when little, rather than when the weeds are large with roots going deep into the earth..

But how could the early  - Greek - believers nip the idea of hel/hell in the bud, when even the Jewish Talmud was full of the error!? .."since they were disobedient (loved disobedience? humanity that is) He gave them over to believe the lie.."

But even this.. is working for good.. is accomplishing the new heavens and the new earth that He is creating and has always been creating..

It took me a minute or two to catch the "whale meat again" :laughing7: :doh: :thumbsup: