the bible and the god of war

[anti_nietzsche]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask you, how do you get along with reading the bible that has so many words of consolation and love and peace in it, and the words of punishment and war that are also in it. Recently I found new admiration for the book in the psalms, but other words I cannot read without getting scared. The thing is, if an arrow came from the sky and would have struck an evil king, that would be okay for me. But when God ignites war against him he strikes everyone because everyone suffers in a war, not just kings and nobles and rich men.

I love God and humans and the world, and maybe that's why I have these issues. I trust in Jesus and his cross for our salvation. But what can I do against the image of Yahweh as a God of war. This is where I totally sink under the waves and can't trust in God anymore. I mean, I can still have some trust, but it would have to be apart of the bible. I don't quite know what to do. I want to read the book and console myself with it but the words strike me too. And I'm not like the evil kings of back then. And back then there were surely other good people too who suffered from war and did not deserve it.

How do you resolve that?

[sheila]

   I am for peace..but they are for war.  as long as evil/wickedness exists there will be enmity and war,we may wish it were not so...but that does not

  nullify our present reality. war is the result of sin/error/evil entering the scene. It is ultimately a spiritual warfare acted out in the flesh of men.

   when Jesus goes forth waging war in righteousness..it is a spiritual warfare against satan and his kingdom of darkness that have wrecked His church....

   and it is for the deliverance of 'bands' to become one/union with  'BEAUTY" in His hand. :2c:


    strife/war/hatreds/covetousness/greed/violence/lust are all fruit of the wicked contrast spirit....many are overcome...even the saints[churches] with

  their divisions/pointing the finger and accusing/condemning. Daniel prophesied of such...until the time[which is at hand] when the Ancient of Days

takes His seat...the COURT SITS[JUDGEMENTS OF GOD] and the time the saints receive the Kingdom prepared for them.

[marie glen]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask you, how do you get along with reading the bible that has so many words of consolation and love and peace in it, and the words of punishment and war that are also in it. Recently I found new admiration for the book in the psalms, but other words I cannot read without getting scared. The thing is, if an arrow came from the sky and would have struck an evil king, that would be okay for me. But when God ignites war against him he strikes everyone because everyone suffers in a war, not just kings and nobles and rich men.

I love God and humans and the world, and maybe that's why I have these issues. I trust in Jesus and his cross for our salvation. But what can I do against the image of Yahweh as a God of war. This is where I totally sink under the waves and can't trust in God anymore. I mean, I can still have some trust, but it would have to be apart of the bible. I don't quite know what to do. I want to read the book and console myself with it but the words strike me too. And I'm not like the evil kings of back then. And back then there were surely other good people too who suffered from war and did not deserve it.

How do you resolve that?

hi! for me, how I resolve that is I totally believe that God's judgments are the natural results and consequences of mankind's own doings.. both collective and individual.. Yet, even though it is natural law, it is still in a very real sense, God doing it..

Because it's natural law-he created and ordained.

..the fruit of all things having its own unique seed within it.. (but that's not how it would be expressed to bloodthirsty barbarians, for instance, but as His wrath.. which at times, I do believe is quite real)

It's my strong belief that God is Life. The breath and spark of life. Life itself! And He is also Perfection.

But once He created (chose to create) rational creatures, a whole new world (tree) of possibilities came about.

His other option? No rational creatures ever?

I'm not saying we have 'free will', but we do, it seems obvious to me, have the ability to think, rationalize and make choices, albeit, thankfully, very limited, or who knows what damage we could inflict, especially viewing the state of this world, which I believe is the life of His letting 'choice' run its course - otherwise, it's not choice. (If He were constantly interfering - tho of course He has interfered.. yet still, imo, letting choice run its course... To prove..

To show the utter contrast.. to write and engrave deeply upon every heart, mind and psyche that His way truly is the best and onLy way.

You see, if He is both Life and Perfection, what occurs once one chooses anything in thought, word, or deed which differs from what He chooses? They become imperfect, the opposite of life. Hence the rescue "built in from the foundation"/beginning. (And also why none will be lost, because He engineered it all, including the imperfection coming about.)

Now here's the thing - since He IS life (imo :gsmile: ) He suffers, lives through and experiences all sufferings, abominations and indignations which ever occur! Why?! would He put Himself through all that??!

Perhaps because He's not creating robots or an ant farm -  these 'answers' became apparent to me after our son 17/18 years ago asked me "why was the tree of knowing good and evil in the garden?" and "Isn't it great we get to be an ant farm?" I answered him but was not satisfied w/ my answers so I prayed for better ones. Not creating an ant farm or robots, but His own family of many beautiful branches and an un-breakable paradise/perfecfection. Un-breakable because, well.. what is said to be the best teacher? experience.

He could tell all of us all this, but would all be 100%+ fully convinced of it?

A rational, able to think creature, sooner or later, is likely to one day think 'say.. do we reaLLy have to do everything God's way?'

The last thought that came to me when these things came to mind (kind of like 'bam! bam! bam!) was a question - "why did God wait SO very long, and only create the universe and man and woman, not only, after the first bound-to-occur rebel thought occurred - as it did in the adversary - but after that thought had fully matured into outright sedition and trickery? didn't He know what would happen?

:laughing7: of course He did! the answer? (another bam) so all would take this unavoidable journey and lesson, all together at once, lest one wander away now, another later.. and another.. later.. taking virtually 'for ever'..

He - being life - suffers and experiences it all.. :faint:

What were, I wonder His other choices? How, would you or I go about creating an un-breakable paradise??

The first thing which came to mind in this series of bams :laughing7: was an image of 'in the beginning' or that is, before creating any thing, He could see stretched out before His sight.. like a blanket stretched out was the image.. all possibilities, and how He has chose to do all things in just the way He has - in order - to bring about the veRy best of all possibilities..

Does this prevent me from agonizing over history and current events and poor little Jessica Lundsford.. who I cried over just yesterday and even now, and it was some few years ago that it occurred and was in the news - but I heard a reference yesterday to "Jessica's law" and i'm not talking about a few lonely tears but deep heart felt, wrenching weeping.. even somewhat loud sobbing.. (maybe this is a fruit in us He desires)

Luke 17:1-2 New King James Version (NKJV)

17 Then He said to the disciples, "It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come! 2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones."

This life through imperfection, an unavoidable lesson and journey, that is ...if there's to be thinking ability.. :2c:
  :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :cloud9: :cloud9: :cloud9:

[DanielB]

If any interpretation makes God seem like an evil tyrant, cruel, bloodthirsty, bitter, uncaring, uncompassionate, etc then you are obliged to deny it until you find an acceptable interpretation that does not say these things about God. Maybe some of these brutal sounding verses our historical and as they appear at a physical level but God certainly is not bloodthirsty or cruel. We must not know the situation and that is making things seem worse than it actually is, we don't know what the words are actually describing(we are misreading something that is meant to be hyperbolic, etc), or both

[DanielB]

I just came up something to express what I am talking about.

Let's say there was a surgeon a long time ago(or in some area that is not very medically advanced) and one day one of his beloved friends came to him with an infection, injury, or something in his arm that meant it would have to be amputated(and there was nothing available to render him unconscious or numb). The surgeon decides it will have to be sawn off. So he starts the amputation and his friend is screaming and yelling in pain which draws the attention of the surgeon's two sons. The sons(who are unaware what their father does as a surgeon and why) run to see what is going on an see their father sawing some man's arm off! The first son is very disturbed but comes to the conclusion that it must be a bad man who deserves such a thing and that his father is doing it for that reason. The second son reasons that it must have just been a man who looks identical to his father because he believes his father is a compassionate and peaceful man who definitely wouldn't torture or maim someone or do anything that malicious.

Which son would you say puts more trust in his father? We probably shouldn't be making judgments about the state of people's hearts but let's judge their judgment. I think it would be fair to say that the second son made a better and more accurate judgment even though he was mistaken in thinking that his father would never and has never sawed anyone's arm off. It would probably be best for them to just ask their father what was going on obviously and we can ask God what was going on but God does not always answer us in a loud and clear way. If they knew what being a surgeon is all about and they realized that their father was doing so out plain warm love then they wouldn't come to such imperfect interpretations of what they saw but none of us fully understand what God's job as our creator, refiner, saviour, etc  involves nor do we even have the capacity to fully comprehend that so I think it is better to interpret like the second son than the first if we are unsure of what is going on.

Maybe God ordered such things but we should not be like the first son and say that God is just uncompassionate or unloving or needlessly violent sometimes(even if God ordered such things and it appears that way like the surgery appeared to both of the children). It would be better(in my opinion) to just deny that God was involved(even if that denies cases where he truly was involved) than jump to bad conclusions about what God is like and what God prefers to do. Don't believe in any interpretation that makes God seem less good to you. It would be better to not come to any conclusion or interpretation than to come to a bad one. I think it would even be a lesser evil to deny inspiration than to accept that God is cruel or uncaring sometimes(but that would probably be throwing out the baby with the bathwater so it would be better to just be willing to not come to a conclusion until you know of a better option).

[Abigail]

I find that difficult too. I think the psalms are not necessary God's words, but are the words of men spoken to God or about God - so these are from men's perspective. I do not believe God would say: 'Happy shall he be who dashes your little ones against the rock!'

Yet there are parts of the Bible, especially in the book of Joshua, where God commands to slay peoples. I cannot explain these as 'men's perception', since they look like real history in the way they are written.

Some things that help me understand, are:

- as far as I have understood, God never ordered the Israelites to torture their enemies. They always had to kill by the sword, which means immediate death.

- from our perspective, death is the worst thing that can happen. It is the ceiling. For God it may be the floor. In my native language, the word we use for dying means 'past suffering'. There is a story in the Old Testament, which I cannot find right now (I think it is in the books of the Kings or the Chronicles). It is about a little prince born in a very wicked reigning family in Israel, in a time the people were living extremely wicked. I remember the scripture said that God took the boy (or something like that, meaning that the boy died), to spare him from living in such an evil time.

- I have heard it said about the Canaanites that they lived extremely wicked lives. Burning their children alive and a lot of other terrible stuff. This must have been something like 'hell on earth'. For a person growing up in such a hell, death might have meant indeed a 'past suffering'. I don't mean to advocate to kill people that are having terrible or wicked lives of course, but I want to point out that we often have a very limited view on life and death.

- In the great Flood many people died suddenly. These people are probably to be compared with the Canaanites, living extremely wicked lives and probably very impenitent. They were harming themselves and each other severely by their sin, to a point God had to put an end to it, to prevent the human race from being totally destroyed by it. The New Testament speaks about Jesus bringing the Gospel to the ones that perished in the Great Flood. This picture helps me to understand the bigger picture. If you see death from a different standpoint, it might look like this: God, grabbing those people out of the hell they live in and create themselves, taking them through death (which probably deals with them - as you see in the life here on earth that troubles often wake people up, making them seek the real life), and then bringing them the Good News of His everlasting grace and love.

[Seth]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask you, how do you get along with reading the bible that has so many words of consolation and love and peace in it, and the words of punishment and war that are also in it. Recently I found new admiration for the book in the psalms, but other words I cannot read without getting scared. The thing is, if an arrow came from the sky and would have struck an evil king, that would be okay for me. But when God ignites war against him he strikes everyone because everyone suffers in a war, not just kings and nobles and rich men.

I love God and humans and the world, and maybe that's why I have these issues. I trust in Jesus and his cross for our salvation. But what can I do against the image of Yahweh as a God of war. This is where I totally sink under the waves and can't trust in God anymore. I mean, I can still have some trust, but it would have to be apart of the bible. I don't quite know what to do. I want to read the book and console myself with it but the words strike me too. And I'm not like the evil kings of back then. And back then there were surely other good people too who suffered from war and did not deserve it.

How do you resolve that?

Not sure if my answer will bring much resolve but Paul addresses a question like that in the NT.

Romans 9
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

---

"For who is able to resist his will?"

Who is innocent? Who is guilty? Who deserves? Who does not deserve?

Paul doesn't really approach it from that perspective. He approaches it more from a what-did-god-choose perspective. God considers man to be like clay. Clay doesn't have blame or innocence. It is formed according to the will of the Maker. God did those things because it was part of his plan. The Bible makes no excuses or outs about that. We don't have to like it and God isn't apologizing for it.

:HeartThrob:

[DanielB]

God's stance on killing the innocent along with the guilty seems to be addressed in God's discussion with Abraham about Sodom.(look it up if you don't remember or haven't read) It seems to me that God does not see "collateral damage"(to lives) as acceptable and that he does not kill the innocent along with the guilty(a person could dispute me and say that we don't know for sure that God would "spare" the city to avoid killing one innocent because Abraham didn't ask that far, but I still think that is the point it was making). Some people may say that he was only willing to consider sparing it for Abraham's sake but I think that is ridiculous. As universalists, I don't think God killing people ought to bother us. I think that bothered me before I believed in universal salvation but I am confident in our afterlife so death itself doesn't bother me anymore than if God were to invite people into a time machine and take them to the resurrection(which is basically how I see death). It often seems merciful to me(especially the killing of Sodom). Many people lived without hope and were just screwing up their lives and doing no good. Life must have been miserable and uh... lifeless in Sodom.

The stuff that bothers me is the stuff talking about God commanding human armies to kill rather than doing it himself or sending less corruptible beings. If God is doing the killing then we can be sure it is done perfectly and that there is nothing gratuitous going on but human armies have the tendency of murdering, raping, stealing, and committing all kinds of evils. Maybe we can speculate that traitors(all who do such things) would die(or otherwise be prevented) along with the other guilty if they tried to do evil in and after battles but that would be speculative. There is also the issue of the negative effects that such wars/killing would have on the people doing the killing. Some may say "God used them so they could realize the seriousness of sin" but I am skeptical of God trying to teach that in such a way so unless someone shows me some verses, I will consider that a heaping pile of crap. We learn to despise sin by loving those who sin and those who are sinned against, not through killing and death.

I trust God in this. I guess the thing that bothers me is more whether I should attribute such a thing to God or not. There have certainly been interpretations that deny it is literally historical and that it should be interpreted in other ways or contains hyperbole or ancient trash talking. As I expressed already, I will not believe that things are as they seem if things seem as if God is cruel, unjust, or less loving than I am. We should certainly understand that God does not think like a warlord who does evil so that good may come of it. God doesn't throw people under the bus. If I was sure such things were commanded by God, I would not be concerned about attributing it to him(nor would I seek to learn anything about God from it).

[Ross]

There have been many wars throughout history.
Some have been oppressed for centuries before the rebellion comes out and the kingdom is changed to a new system.
So does the war really resolve the underlying issues?
I.M.O no!
The wars seem to have been used in the O.T to crush the behaviour that the particular nation was carrying out.
When Israel was doing sacrifices to other gods they underwent correction through the use of nations which placed them in bondage.
When the neighbours had done their job for a few years then they would be ousted.

The historical records of the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, other nations, all seem to talk about heavenly wars. They use the immortality of gods to heighten the nee for serious methods of correction. The side-effects are also dramatic in there teachings.

Consider why we are here. I.M.O to learn what life is truly all about. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was the starting point.
We only get wisdom through experience. The experiences which mankind is undergoing is part of pointing out the knowledge which is for good, and which has bad consequences.
Paul makes the most poignant statement;
1 Cor 15;19 " If our hope in Christ is for this life only, we are to be pitied most of all men."

Also;
2 Cor 4;18 " We look not on what can be seen, but on the unseen; for what can be seen is temporary, but what cannot be seen is
                   aionios [indeterminate duration]"

I consider that the mortal man goes through as part of pointing out the bad choices made through history.
When we are made immortal  we will need to know what to do correctly. The basis of our values need to be in sync with our creator.
The plan needs to be significant to train us in the path of righteousness.
I.M.O we are asking these questions so that the truth can be pointed out to us. The fact that we are not happy with wars shows us that there has to be  something better- ergo the things to come will need to exceed the current state of being; and they will.

[Dandelion]

I resolve it this way.....

The Old Testament was the Law. The Law was rules, so that God's chosen people would walk through this life, following the path God laid for them.

But, Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law....and the fulfillment of the Law is Love.

That is how I resolve the conflict between the OT and the NT.

As for the deaths of many people in the OT.....God does not look upon death the same way we do. To us it is a great grief and sadness....but, God knows what awaits us on the other side.....and He does not think of death as we do, but rather, a transformation.

Just some points that I have gathered for myself.

D.

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: to both

[rosered]

 

  These are good thoughts   to think upon ! :dsunny:
GODS  Blessings  :friendstu:

There are places that speak to our heats that say  also  , Blessed in the sight of the Lord are the death of His saints  , in Psalms

  the Holy ones have died  to the world and yet await a better resurrection   , Hebrews 11 
  Dying in faith  ,  we can  compare  it to      Jesus Christ cross  as all  bear  their own cross  , but to be like Jesus  [IN HIS IMAGE/LIKENESS  ]  we have to accept  its suffering   in the moment as Gods  will and desire  , A cup of suffering , that the  complete / perfect resurrection  will  be as our    perfect example of JESUS CHRIST  , As forgive them Father !!'' For they do not know what they are doing''    THIS IS  the resurrection in JESUS CHRISTs anointing  of  OUR HOLY FATHER , GOD   to His GLORY AND NAME    , like no other  , being apart of Him , being   the  Resurrection and LIFE  , making this a new and living way ...

  Death comes in many forms  , Life and death are in the power of the tongue   and what we say, results  to  its fruits/doings , all things are ours , life and death are ours and we are Christs and Christ is Gods  fruit /doings  /offspring   in the earth are Gods judgments of a new life  in Christ our reward  , our mark  of a higher calling ,  to rise  above the body of death[law of sin and death]   and Live to God  and death to the old  world   as sin /error  is that  wage ,  a fixed regular payment.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."   

Words are directed by the motive of your hearts course  , the narrow path that  leads to Life or the broad path that  leads to destruction   
  The Lord says be quiet in  Spirit and wait on Him and  trust Him in every way  , being our Leader , Head , authority , and the true words are ,  If God be for us whom can be against us .

Romans  8 God Works In All Things
...30And those He predestined He also called, those He called He also justified, those He justified He also glorified.

31What then shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?


32He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?...


More of the same witness and theme  throughout the WORD OF LIFE ...Spiritual warfare  ! , not flesh  and  blood   :sigh:,,,


1 Kings 8:57
"May the LORD our God be with us, as He was with our fathers; may He not leave us or forsake us,

2 Kings 6:16
So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."

1 Chronicles 5:22
For many fell slain, because the war was of God. And they settled in their place until the exile.

Psalm 56:9
Then my enemies will turn back in the day when I call; This I know, that God is for me.

Psalm 118:6
The LORD is for me; I will not fear; What can man do to me?

Isaiah 8:10
"Devise a plan, but it will be thwarted; State a proposal, but it will not stand, For God is with us."

Isaiah 41:10
'Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God. I will strengthen you, surely I will help you, Surely I will uphold you with My righteous right hand.'

Jeremiah 20:11
But the LORD is with me like a dread champion; Therefore my persecutors will stumble and not prevail. They will be utterly ashamed, because they have failed, With an everlasting disgrace that will not be forgotten.

Jeremiah 42:11
Do not be afraid of the king of Babylon, whom you are now fearing; do not be afraid of him,' declares the LORD, 'for I am with you to save you and deliver you from his hand.

Matthew 1:23
"Behold! The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call Him Immanuel" (which means, "God with us").

[marie glen]

I just came up something to express what I am talking about.

Let's say there was a surgeon a long time ago(or in some area that is not very medically advanced) and one day one of his beloved friends came to him with an infection, injury, or something in his arm that meant it would have to be amputated(and there was nothing available to render him unconscious or numb). The surgeon decides it will have to be sawn off. So he starts the amputation and his friend is screaming and yelling in pain which draws the attention of the surgeon's two sons. The sons(who are unaware what their father does as a surgeon and why) run to see what is going on an see their father sawing some man's arm off! The first son is very disturbed but comes to the conclusion that it must be a bad man who deserves such a thing and that his father is doing it for that reason. The second son reasons that it must have just been a man who looks identical to his father because he believes his father is a compassionate and peaceful man who definitely wouldn't torture or maim someone or do anything that malicious.

Which son would you say puts more trust in his father? We probably shouldn't be making judgments about the state of people's hearts but let's judge their judgment. I think it would be fair to say that the second son made a better and more accurate judgment even though he was mistaken in thinking that his father would never and has never sawed anyone's arm off. It would probably be best for them to just ask their father what was going on obviously and we can ask God what was going on but God does not always answer us in a loud and clear way. If they knew what being a surgeon is all about and they realized that their father was doing so out plain warm love then they wouldn't come to such imperfect interpretations of what they saw but none of us fully understand what God's job as our creator, refiner, saviour, etc  involves nor do we even have the capacity to fully comprehend that so I think it is better to interpret like the second son than the first if we are unsure of what is going on.

Maybe God ordered such things but we should not be like the first son and say that God is just uncompassionate or unloving or needlessly violent sometimes(even if God ordered such things and it appears that way like the surgery appeared to both of the children). It would be better(in my opinion) to just deny that God was involved(even if that denies cases where he truly was involved) than jump to bad conclusions about what God is like and what God prefers to do. Don't believe in any interpretation that makes God seem less good to you. It would be better to not come to any conclusion or interpretation than to come to a bad one. I think it would even be a lesser evil to deny inspiration than to accept that God is cruel or uncaring sometimes(but that would probably be throwing out the baby with the bathwater so it would be better to just be willing to not come to a conclusion until you know of a better option).

I like that DanielB! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I resolve it this way.....

The Old Testament was the Law. The Law was rules, so that God's chosen people would walk through this life, following the path God laid for them.

But, Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law....and the fulfillment of the Law is Love.

That is how I resolve the conflict between the OT and the NT.

As for the deaths of many people in the OT.....God does not look upon death the same way we do. To us it is a great grief and sadness....but, God knows what awaits us on the other side.....and He does not think of death as we do, but rather, a transformation.

Just some points that I have gathered for myself.

D.

  :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :HeartThrob:

...And amen to all posts in this thread.. some great thoughts here..

[lonelysummer]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask you, how do you get along with reading the bible that has so many words of consolation and love and peace in it, and the words of punishment and war that are also in it. Recently I found new admiration for the book in the psalms, but other words I cannot read without getting scared. The thing is, if an arrow came from the sky and would have struck an evil king, that would be okay for me. But when God ignites war against him he strikes everyone because everyone suffers in a war, not just kings and nobles and rich men.

I love God and humans and the world, and maybe that's why I have these issues. I trust in Jesus and his cross for our salvation. But what can I do against the image of Yahweh as a God of war. This is where I totally sink under the waves and can't trust in God anymore. I mean, I can still have some trust, but it would have to be apart of the bible. I don't quite know what to do. I want to read the book and console myself with it but the words strike me too. And I'm not like the evil kings of back then. And back then there were surely other good people too who suffered from war and did not deserve it.

How do you resolve that?

I feel the same way. Slogging my way through the OT for the first time in years, but it is tough going. God strikes people dead for disobeying; rebellious children are supposed to be stoned to death - then I should be dead right now, cause I rebelled against my parents; oh yeah, and those annoying bodily emissions....surely there must be some heavy duty punishment in store for me!

[Cardinal]

   I am for peace..but they are for war.  as long as evil/wickedness exists there will be enmity and war,we may wish it were not so...but that does not

  nullify our present reality. war is the result of sin/error/evil entering the scene. It is ultimately a spiritual warfare acted out in the flesh of men.

   when Jesus goes forth waging war in righteousness..it is a spiritual warfare against satan and his kingdom of darkness that have wrecked His church....

   and it is for the deliverance of 'bands' to become one/union with  'BEAUTY" in His hand. :2c:


    strife/war/hatreds/covetousness/greed/violence/lust are all fruit of the wicked contrast spirit....many are overcome...even the saints[churches] with

  their divisions/pointing the finger and accusing/condemning. Daniel prophesied of such...until the time[which is at hand] when the Ancient of Days

takes His seat...the COURT SITS[JUDGEMENTS OF GOD] and the time the saints receive the Kingdom prepared for them.

:thumbsup:

[Abigail]

I'm in a process of changing my mind on this subject. Here are some resources I've found recently. I did not read/listen all yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOsxMvm-Nk4 on the vengeance of God
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_2m2c7vugc&t=2s on the wrath of God
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25s8b81Ea1o&t=16s on the flood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okVEGhPcKZA part 2 on the flood
https://www.amazon.com/Crucifixion-Warrior-God-Volumes/dp/1506420753/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1499712753&sr=8-1&keywords=gregory+boyd a book written specifically on the subject you mentioned
https://www.amazon.com/Cross-Vision-Crucifixion-Testament-Violence/dp/1506420737/ref=la_B001IODKRM_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499712848&sr=1-4 as I understand, this is a follow-up of the book mentioned above

[jugghead]

for me it is as simple as this:

Would you obey someone if you have no respect for their authority?

The answer is an astounding NO

But God did not do these things to get respect, He did them because He loves us and wanted to teach us the consequences of sin, all that He does is for our benefit (it is better to give then to receive)

It is why religion (any) is so popular, those with little or no understanding of God see them as the authority on God and thereby respect them as an authority, man's major motive is to gain respect, teaching the consequences of sin comes secondary (not always but the majority of the time). When the teaching of the consequences of sin does not work (the fear of death), they had to come up with an idea to keep control of the masses to obey, that idea became worse than death, being tormented for all eternity.

It is only now that our sins have been paid for can we fully understand and respect God's authority, not only through the consequences of sin (death) but more so even now through the forgiveness of them (grace/life).

I believe the OT was all about His authority over the flesh whereas in the NT it is all about His authority over the spirit and the forgiveness of the sins of the flesh ..... forgiving others as He forgave us ..... we have been given His authority to forgive sin ..... has not the Son of Man been given this authority? an astounding YES

[anti_nietzsche]

I am persuaded that our God whose son we follow is not a God of war, instead He intends to give everyone shalom peace. He loves the world and humanity. The only time He goes to war is in nazi times when true evil reigns, not just a few corrupted ones here and there. I mean defensive wars. And in that all nations are treated equally - christians do not have a right to go to war because of being christians. What they did in previous times, such as blessing weapons and soldiers and praying against other peoples, that is not allowed anymore. Peace and prosperity are precious, and war destroys both, obviously. Let us pray for other nations like Iraq and Afghanistan ... we have not done a real prayer effort for these countries. The ways of peace are deep and rich and very necessary. I do not believe in karma in the hindu sense, but what goes around comes around. We must not oppress foreigners and foreign countries because they have other beliefs. To be a christian doesn't give us license to oppress other people. I know from my past as an atheist and from atheists that we still have morals. The same is true about muslims and hinduists and all the others. We must follow Jesus' loving ways. As UR believers we know that everyone is loved by God and that He is about saving all of us. That's the love we need to express, against the odds and despite the costs. The cross we have to carry means love even when it is not returned.

[Abigail]

Hi anti-Nietzsche,

I think the links I posted come close to your convictions.

[marie glen]

Hi again,

I wanted to ask you, how do you get along with reading the bible that has so many words of consolation and love and peace in it, and the words of punishment and war that are also in it. Recently I found new admiration for the book in the psalms, but other words I cannot read without getting scared. The thing is, if an arrow came from the sky and would have struck an evil king, that would be okay for me. But when God ignites war against him he strikes everyone because everyone suffers in a war, not just kings and nobles and rich men.

I love God and humans and the world, and maybe that's why I have these issues. I trust in Jesus and his cross for our salvation. But what can I do against the image of Yahweh as a God of war. This is where I totally sink under the waves and can't trust in God anymore. I mean, I can still have some trust, but it would have to be apart of the bible. I don't quite know what to do. I want to read the book and console myself with it but the words strike me too. And I'm not like the evil kings of back then. And back then there were surely other good people too who suffered from war and did not deserve it.

How do you resolve that?

hi! I thought I would address this again.. it's my understanding that the words of the Old Testament are put forth in such language as to reach those persons who do such things as burn children and babies alive in fire while beating drums to drown out their screams.. which was a common enough practice in those days..

But!! I see it truly as God is not the one making war.. but is allowing man's doings to fall upon their own heads. (Obadiah 16) Letting things - people's doings, choices, run their natural course. Interfering to protect the not so 'guilty'.. How would one do that?

I believe we are all learning, and simply must learn, this total lesson of the potential in any grain of waywardness (imperfection).. If, we are to have rational faculties.. able to think.. ponder.. plan.. and even make choices..

That's how I think of it - that 'God's wrath' is in reality.. consequences. How to interfere in letting things run their course (to prove Truth/Life) so none not truly deserving would suffer..? Wouldn't that be not letting things run their course?

So how would you create an un able to be broken paradise / perfection?

Would it be paradise with no thinking creatures? How does one prove to said thinking creatures that imperfection - anything other than His 100% will, even a tiny speck of it - is a horrible black hole of an abyss of horrible, horrible possibilities? Engraving upon every heart - "Go Not That Way" "Ever!"... I also think unfortunate victims of horrible kings, or individuals, etc, deserve, on judgment (review) day some vindication, meaning there hAs to be consequences for doing evil.

How does one go about creating and instituting an un-breakable paradise / perfection? Which is what I believe He is creating, without letting the imperfect run its course. And prove to all, forever, the utter futility of it.. "Vanity, vanity.. all is vanity.."

..that's the way I think of it.. As a loving parent, do I keep my child immature forever? making every decision for them so they never become able to make any decisions? Isn't that the only way our heavenly father could prevent suffering? :dontknow:

   :Peace2: :cloud9: :cloud9:

I am persuaded that our God whose son we follow is not a God of war, instead He intends to give everyone shalom peace. He loves the world and humanity. The only time He goes to war is in nazi times when true evil reigns, not just a few corrupted ones here and there. I mean defensive wars. And in that all nations are treated equally - christians do not have a right to go to war because of being christians. What they did in previous times, such as blessing weapons and soldiers and praying against other peoples, that is not allowed anymore. Peace and prosperity are precious, and war destroys both, obviously. Let us pray for other nations like Iraq and Afghanistan ... we have not done a real prayer effort for these countries. The ways of peace are deep and rich and very necessary. I do not believe in karma in the hindu sense, but what goes around comes around. We must not oppress foreigners and foreign countries because they have other beliefs. To be a christian doesn't give us license to oppress other people. I know from my past as an atheist and from atheists that we still have morals. The same is true about muslims and hinduists and all the others. We must follow Jesus' loving ways. As UR believers we know that everyone is loved by God and that He is about saving all of us. That's the love we need to express, against the odds and despite the costs. The cross we have to carry means love even when it is not returned.

Amen.. :gsmile:  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

I feel the same way. Slogging my way through the OT for the first time in years, but it is tough going. God strikes people dead for disobeying; rebellious children are supposed to be stoned to death - then I should be dead right now, cause I rebelled against my parents; oh yeah, and those annoying bodily emissions....surely there must be some heavy duty punishment in store for me!

I think we've all been through that.. I resolve that by understanding the laws were for tiny Israel in order to prepare one small place where the savior of the world could be born into.. That basically all the things which were stoned for, are things which naturally on their own bring death.. Even in such a protected society.. children rebelled.. which of course all such things have a way of catching on.. spreading..

I believe we've all shook our fist at the heavens (at God). And have to struggle through that. Israel was like a garden. In order to have the garden (Messiah) weeds could not be let to grow in that spot. :dontknow: That's how I see it.. And I believe He will be totally vindicated concerning all things.. has done and engineered each and every thing just as he has, in order to bring about the utter best of all possibilities. And he sees the total, he sees resurrection.

About emisisions and such, I believe those were health laws.. like burying ones stool instead of leaving it atop the ground, a shovel at the end of ones sword, if I remember right.. And harshness with that old world.. they used to sacrifice babes alive in fire to the 'gods' and beat drums to drown out the screams.. and yet Jesus died for them and God will utterly save them.. :Peace2: :cloud9: