about lazarus and the rich man

[Abigail]

I have heard many different explanations on the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
There was one explanation that made much sense to me, but I cannot find where I read that one, maybe one of you knows the source?

In it, it is said that Jesus actually made a parody on an existing story. The existing story was told / believed by the Pharisees, who were being influenced by the pagan views of the afterlife / Hades. I think Jesus kind of reversed the roles (the rich man being a type of a rich Pharisee). Jesus addressed the parable to the Pharisees, btw.

- the Pharisees believed they were rich, because the were blessed, because they were very good/holy. They even seemed to believe in a form of reincarnation as a result of the staying in foreign pagan countries for many years -

[jabcat]

maybe this abigail?  if not, maybe close;

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/books/abrahams_bosom.html&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjDk4eUnbnUAhWMFz4KHZPnC0gQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFCJ64IXSK8IXbc3Wtr2t0BzBuhxw

[WhiteWings]

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=rich%20man%20and%20lazarus.htm

[Abigail]

I looked up the links you both mentioned. I think I did not have my memory completely clear. As I understand now, Jesus was not refering to a specific story from the Talmud or other writings. The story of Lazarus was composed of  different aspects derived from the Talmud and other traditional writings wellknown to the Pharisees.

[marie glen]

I thought I'd post about how the best thing I heard about this was the other day (online) that wherever the rich man was - in hades, the place of the dead (whether asleep in the grave or in another place where all dead folks go) it's temporary!

How can we claim that? Because in Rev chapter 20, it says death and hades give up the dead which are therein..

Revelation 20:13New International Version (NIV)

13 "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them.."

Luke 16:23 (NIV) -
23  "In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.."

Wherever the selfish rich guy was.. it was temporary.. but I also lean toward thinking it's a parable kind of making fun of the adopted myths of the Talmud (adopted from pre and non Christian ideas,which to me seems different from the Old Testament where Yahweh said not to mingle with other faiths.. imo, anyway..

But now I figure I understand a good answer to the question of the rich man in torments in hades .. temporary according to Rev 20:13 :thumbsup:

[marie glen]

maybe this abigail?  if not, maybe close;

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.tentmaker.org/books/abrahams_bosom.html&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjDk4eUnbnUAhWMFz4KHZPnC0gQFggGMAE&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNFCJ64IXSK8IXbc3Wtr2t0BzBuhxw

Wow that was great! Especially about Judah and his five brothers.. and if literal how horrid, the saved would always see and hear their loved ones being tormented! :mshock:

[marie glen]

http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/ShepherdsVoice/index.html?page=rich%20man%20and%20lazarus.htm

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: awesome..now I think I've committed tomory the idea that the rich man more than likely represents the blessed position israel had, and Lazarus, who are crumbs from the rich man's table was the not so fortunately blessed gentile nations..prosylytes at the gate..
But then :snor: :lazy: getting past my bed time.. but I should come back and check out our He rest tomorrow.. Nice to see many refute and make excellent points, especially about how it is indeed a parable and just doesn't work otherwise (if literal)

P.S. - Very interesting thread Abigail..

[anti_nietzsche]

I believe the Lazarus from the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is the same as Lazarus the friend of Jesus whom he resurrected in the Gospel of John. The parable likely is supposed to share how Jesus and an unnamed Rich Man talked about death and our fate in the beyond. In his brief death experience, Lazarus experienced God's mercy, and the rich man prayed and got nothing. In the hereafter those who have suffered are comforted while those who caused suffering experience shame and regret (the flames). And this shame and regret cannot be stopped by those who went to heaven having suffered (the gulf between them, their difference before God the Judge). But with God no punishment is really everlasting in the true sense of the word. What is impossible with man is possible with God. So the rich man wanted God to send someone to his brothers and sisters so they would be warned. But riches are so deceiving that they do not listen even when someone rises from the dead.

I wish there were more scripture to explain this. Jesus does not rule by terror but instead by general grace for all. So I do not believe in hellfire but instead in a purgatorial afterlife where those who haven't been merciful to other people will finally experience regret for their greed and avarice. In Jesus there is hope and salvation for them too, but they must regret first.